Ghazali On Women In Islam klutz #14 Here is how you eat Aam without having to then jump into the river to clean yourself:

a. Slice off right and left ``cheek`` of aam.

b. Hold right cheek down with fork, and ``score`` (cut through the mango flesh) with three or four top-down cuts and three or four sideways cuts;

c. Push on skin side of mango so flesh side comes out (becomes convex) in neat little cubes.

d. Slice off cubes, and put resulting dices in fruit bowl.

e. Serve to guests.

Epilog: After guests have left, take the non-cheek parts of the aam (the one with the Ghuttlie) impossible to eat that with knife and fork. either throw it away if you have no respect for this fine fruit, or else lap it up as usual with your fingers, teeth, tongue. Then go swim in the river to clean up the mess.

When Pinky Broke My Heart There are two interesting aspects of replies and repliers on Chowk. The first is the habit of turning everything into an India-Pakistan argument, instead of an argument based on facts. The second is the inability to ignore offensive comments. Does every offensive comment deserve a reply?

Now to the issue of who has the better fighter pilots and who has the better computer scientists. Considering the fact that the genetic trees of many, if not most, Indians and Pakistanis probably meet at our great....great grandmother level, Indians and Pakistanis should be equally good programmers and pilots. But they are not. Pakistani pilots (even the ones in PIA) have an international reputation, but Pakistani computer scientists do not (Pakisatan has one of the lowest software professional to total population ratios in the world). Indian computer scientists (even the non-IIT ones) have an international reputation, but Indian pilots do not (I think, though I am not 100% sure, the IAF and Air India have one of the poorest flight safety records in the world). It is quite ironic that two third world countries have achieved world-level excellence in two extremely technically challenging fields. But why in such different fields and not the same field? And why not in every technical field, and not just IT and flying?

My answer is Asghar Khan and Nehru. The IAF (or the Pakistan Army and Navy, for that matter), wasn`t lucky enough to have it`s Asghar Khan, in its formative stages. Asghar Khan laid the foundation of some of the best training institutes/academies in the world, in the PAF. I can vouch for that personally. PAF institutes enjoy the same reputation in the international aviation arena that IITs enjoy in the international IT arena, i.e. under-budgeted third world institutes with perhaps the toughest selection criterias in the world, producing world level professionals. For example, CCS (Combat Commander`s School) that Cecil Chaudhry mentions is the PAF equivalent of the US Top Gun. In the US, only a handful of pilots goes thru Top Gun. In the PAF, every single pilot has to clear CCS to get command positions.

Similarly Nehru (our Indian friends can correct me if I am giving credit to the wrong person) set up the IITs. These IITs produced world-level professionals that laid the foundation of the Indian IT success. Pakistan was not lucky enough to have an equivalent of Nehru to set up PITs.

So if Nehru had set up PITs and Asghar Khan had been the first Indian COAS, Indian would be known for its fighter pilots and Pakistan would be known for its software engineers, and not vice-versa. It`s that simple.

I have now spent most of my life with Indian programmers and Pakistani pilots. And I can say with quite a bit of assurance that they are amongst the best in the world in their professions, and their respective reputations are very well earned.

When Pinky Broke My Heart Ahmed madani #608 you one funny chap, man. now we pakis get so much wur-ld attention, and for what? for creating mess in afghanistan to begin with. for sitting at right place at right time.

``better lucky than smart, ha! ha!`` sez pervaiz musharaff over hotline to vajpayee. bush thinks ``hmmm...good line, must use with that bearded mullah Al Gore when I see him``.

and all this attention, oh good lord...christia amanpour wants to hear musharaff`s deep thoughts...bush calls saying he just wanted to say hi to his good buddy...clinton wants to know if the missus would like to go out for a spin...

DOST of the Hopeless ouch, toothache.

rizvi

When Pinky Broke My Heart Captain Cecil Chaudhry

u make us pakistanis proud!!! As hobbyty said its sad for Pakistan to have men of such calibre, and to not value them!

The Other Asian Woman News Flash

``Lt. Gen. Ghulam Ahmed dies in road accident: ISLAMABAD, Aug 24: Lieutenant General Ghulam Ahmed Khan, Chief of Staff to the Chief Executive and President died in a traffic accident near Talagang today afternoon. He was returning to Islamabad after completion of leave, says an ISPR press release.``

Is this a warning from the fundos -- to Mr. Chief Excutive/President -- beware?

The Other Asian Woman nasah #48 That was indeed good advice for the two countries to tackle doable things like more inter-cultural exchanges and so forth to change the tone of relations between the two countries. In Kashmir, they should call a truce and work together to end the violence for now. And then have a plebiscite in Kashmir as well as in India and in Pakistan to see what the majority of the people think should be the solution. I would bet that people in Kashmir as well as in India and in Pakistan will vote first and foremost for an option that offers peace for all.

My own vote would be to make both parts of Kashmir an independent territory whose security is guaranteed by both India and Pakistan and which operates as a democracy along the line of the Swiss confederation - with local self-governments being the most powerful arm of the government, and no military and a central government that is hardly seen or heard and does only things like standards setting and ensuring protection of the basic rights of all individual by the local self-governments.

This may sound like a radical solution - but isnt it time we in South Asia started using our minds rather than slavishly following the options presented in Political Science textbooks

Thanksgiving Ref Pullu #23:



``I would not agree with Mannyd (reply #18) that phoopi`s punishment scene was unwarranted. I feel Shiraz did want to convey something and he succeeded in it.

Taking this article as an attack on Islam would be stretching it too much.``

Somebody said ` Those who can not write become critics`. The following comments are humbly written with that in mind.

Pullu sahib, i did not say that the scene was unwarranted, but that the poor girl`s punishment was harsh and unwarranted. I was mentally unprepared for the surprise sad ending.

Agatha Christie would spring a surprise on the reader in the last chapter, but she would leave the clues openly displayed on page three of chapter two or somewhere early on for dummies to check back. I went back and read the story again without the Evlynwood speed reading technique.

Yes there is anger in Dada Jaan about the `sorry` incident, but a subtle early hint about his volcanic temper will prepare the reader for the ending, when his religious beliefs seem to be questioned with a bleeding and screaming boy running around in the background.

In the end the story is not about circumcision or Islam but about a father beating up mercilessly his young daughter, who aspires to be a doctor.

Solitude : The real life incident you described is indeed more harrowing than your story. My knowledge of Islam is very limited, but I know quite a few Muslim friends in USA, who appreciate and love their daughters.

If it is any consolation to my Pakistani cyber-friends ( it should not be), the treatment of females in India is equally abominable, if not worse. I knew of a Hindu family in my hometown, where the brothers and maternal uncles murdered a girl and her boyfriend who had eloped together. This type of thing sure puts a damper on dating for a long time.

Currently a prominent Sikh leader(Bibi Jagir Kaur?) is a suspect in the death of her daughter.

And this is without touching on the subject of dowery and bride-burning.

My First Love dost mittar #119

Also on the subject of pigs, guess what contributes more to a breakfast of ham and eggs: the hen merely participates (providing an egg) while the pig provides full commitment (by giving up it`s life in the process). So, dont knock the noble pig, U.Max., while letting the crafty hen off the hook so to speak. (And keep an eye on those devilish roosters as they seek to deflower any female that comes their way).

A Delightful Cut Re: Temporal #78

Teeth to tail ratio refers to the number of support/non-fighting men (tail: admin, maintenance, supply, logistics, paymaster, graves registration, military police, what have you) needed to keep one soldier (`teeth`) in the field. I believe the US involvement in Vietnam at its height totalled about 550,000 men, of whom about 60-70,000 were actually in the field. The rest were all the admin support needed to keep them there and do the planning. Western armies need a very lopsided teeth:tail ratio because they are highly mechanized forces and their equipment needs a great deal of extremely complicated maintenance work (huge repair/maintenance depots, etc) and a very complicated resupply chain (petrol, oil, lubricants, spare parts, etc) plus a great deal of communications equipment.

For example, the French in IndoChina could put

The Relationship That Heals krashid #144 I am not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me in my earlier post when I said that Islam explicitly condemns the concept of a ``chosen people`` (be they Jews or Muslims or any other group) and that all individuals (regardless of religion) are equal before the eyes of God. A simple indication (e.g. by writing ``agreed`` or ``disagreed``) would be enough, since I dont want to take up your time trying to explain things to an idiot like me.

The Other Asian Woman Godot #21 Glad I have a fellow optimist on chowk :-). Just the fact that our top soldier (I almost said ``our Hero of Kargil``) is off to Delhi seeking peace is a big step forward already. I dont think the mullahs are going to be any more of a problem than they were when Vajpayee came to Pakistan (they will take out some demonstrations, sniff some tear gas, and go back home for dinner). And I assume the corp commanders are with him too. Even if they are not, I think they know that people will not stand for another coup. I dont know the story with Vajpayee, who seems to be losing some popularity (I think there were some state elections recently where BJP was beaten), and is probably also under pressure from BJP extremists to avoid making any progress towards peace. It would be interesting to learn about any signals the Chinese may be sending - They fear the rising Islamist fundamentalism in Sinkiang I understand, and may actually be pleased with this visit as well.

The Other Asian Woman Am I the only one who got this poem from some emailing list....and stuff. Again and again...

The Other Asian Woman This article is better than his previous one on chowk in which Mushahid Hussain earned a well-deserved drubbing from many posters. Let us hope he will have the courtesy this time to respond to posts on this article (even those questioning his record when in power under NS), which is something he did not do in the previous one.

On the substance, I think we have the best chance yet in half a century of a change in tone in relations between the two countries. Both Vajpayee and PM seem to have a sense of history. Or at least let us pray like hell that they do.

The Other Asian Woman

Mr. Hussain,

Did like your point on:

``main issue between India and Pakistan is more of attitude than of policy on a particular issue``

BUt your article is a mere re-cap of events with really no insight and real opinion. Yes Mr. Vajpayee could be different and offers some hope in resolving the Kashmir issue. Great. Anything else mr ex minister?

Apart from that I can`t take a chap like you seriously.

1) A person who curbed free press in Pakistan being a journalist himself (what you did to the jang group on the behest of your master? With your inane Mr. Rupert Murdoch comments?

2) For disseminating lies and spin control and using coercion and aggressive techniques on those who opposed your master (NS)

3) To raid the supreme court - and deny the freedom of civil jurisprudence. You acts that day took law in our civil society backwards 100 years. Where all the good judges? what has happened to law and order in our state? Mostly importantly your fascist behavior in your sycophantic appreciation of your master destroyed the independence of our judicial system.

And fourthly, you talk of helping your country. But like many others you have done more damage than good all in the sake of power and aspirations to be the nation`s foreign minsiter.

Mr Hussain I can forgive MNAs and leaders in our state for making mistakes and being corrupt for NOT being well educated.

But I cannot forgive people like you who have been educated in instutions like Georgetown for doing the deeds that you did. You have joined the long list of humanity that includes the likes of the Bhuttos et al.

Maybe prison has taught you many a lesson. I hope there is salvation for you yet.

And I presuming you are probably not reading this but if you do -at least have the guts to answer these accusations - if you ever aspire to be the ``statesman`` you try so hard to appear.

The Other Asian Woman

It is unrealistic to believe that these talks between Mr. Mushaarraf and Mr. Vajpayee will result in the plebiscite and transfer of territory to Pakistan in year 2001. If a 50 years confrontation - that has resulted in killings and more killings from all sides -- of Kasmiris, Indians, and Pakistanis -- could not resolve the Kashmir Question-how it can be resolved by two reluctant participants sitting together amidst raging battles - without much of a mandate from either of the two countries.

Mr. Musharraf has no mandate, nor has he sought any, from the people of Pakistan or from the political parties of Pakistan during the past two years of his rule ( finally meeting with Nasrullah was belatedly a right decision, he has to meet NS and BB howsoever embarrassing it may be for him personally). He is not an elected leader - nobody in public sector appointed him, he has appointed himself as the leader of Pakistan -- how can he take decision of such major magnitude on his personal guarantee. Will his country allow that?

Mr. Vajpayee desperately trying to remove Tehelka Tar from the face of his party, by any means, has to deal with a parliament where he simply does not have the numbers -- either to build a Ram Mandir on the grounds of Babri Masjid -- or to give away the Muslim Valley -- and keep the Hindu Jammu and Budhist Ladakh in his Hindutva pocket - and survive politically.

Kashmir is not an island, its fate and well being is intimately tied with the fate and well being of Pakistan as well as of India.

An important player in this ‘game’ ARE 150 million MUSLIMS still LIVING in India against 7 million in Kashmir. In 1947 with all their fair-weather leaders conveniently migrating to Pakistan the Indian Muslims were left leaderless, politically naked and very vulnerable, at the mercy of a Hindu bigot like Mr. Patel. Myopic and religion-crazed people in Pakistan may not see it but it was that Muslim majority `state` of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh that slowly and begrudgingly restored their dignity and equality and helped Nehru & company build a secular and democratic India against enormous odds.

As one of the victims of ethnic cleansing in Delhi in 1947, -- who did not migrate to Pakistan -- I would like to remind the negotiating parties that nobody should attempt to take away this SECURITY BLANKET, AGAIN, from the Indian Muslims, and leave them without protection, at the mercy of the modern day Hindtuva Crazies -- once more.

2001 is NOT 1947. The subcontinent cannot afford another partition on religious lines and another good old ethnic cleansing, like the one we had in 1947 in Bengal, Bihar, UP, Sindh, NWFP and Punjab - and in cities like Delhi, Amritsar and Lahore - that killed and uprooted 4 million people.

Despite delusions across both sides of the border -- there is only ONE sensible solution for Kashmir. Kashmir should stay where it is, as it is -- DIVIDED between India and Pakistan (BUT UNITED INTERNALLY) - totally demilitarized -- with full autonomy to be the master of its own internal affairs - with defense and foreign affairs being Pakistan`s and India`s business - and with LOC as an open border between the two sides.

As to the question what should be the agenda of the talks, let me suggest what a teacher of mine taught us how to pass math exam in a limited time. Never get stuck in the beginning on the most difficult question -- always answer all the easy ones first and tackle the most difficult one, last. The same goes for Kashmir.

Mr. Musharraf and Mr. Vajpayee should FIRST tackle doable `easy` tasks of building bridges between the two countries. Such as stopping the violence first, talks of denuclearization, demilitarization, instituting free trade, free movement of people across the border - visits of army officers and politicians, exchanges of journalists, writers, poets, scientists, classical singers, the Junnonies, plus the unrestricted screening of trashy Indian and Pakistani films - and leave the toughest question of Kashmir for the LAST. Because the clock of nuclear holocaust is ticking for the two countries and there is only a limited time available for finishing the peace exam.

If Mr. Musharraf can do that all his sins of a swashbuckling career and the harm he has done to Pakistan democracy, will be wiped out.

Hasan Zeya MD PhD

(retired professor of medicine)

USA