The Other Asian Woman Dear Mushahid Hussain:

There is a rumor that a deal between Pakistan and India has already been worked out.

Division of Kashmir along the LOC?

Is that true? Are you allowed to comment?

Nasah

USA

The Other Asian Woman OK, let me ask (again) the question that is going to have die-hard ultra-patriotic Pakistanis frothing at the mouth and branding me a Hindu-loving traitor.

Why should Kashmiris have a right of self-determination? Do the Nagas? Sikhs? Assamese? Tamils? And whichever other Indian secessionist movement one cares to name?

But why stop there? Did we grant the same right to the Bengalis? Baluchis? Sindhis? Is there a Pakhtunistan?

So having settled the fact that self-determination is nonsense (the Indians won`t accept the principle and the Pakistanis won`t accept Kashmiri independene), what is the point of this meeting? None. Its pointless UNLESS it is to accept the LOC as an international border.

Aaah, now it makes more sense. Gen. Pervez Musharraf is going to rein in the mujahideen and the Indians will toss us a scrap or two (we hope) that we can use to try to save face.

Lets face it, we have lost the military, moral and economic struggle against India. Speaking as some one who had family members spend time as the Indian government`s guests after 1971, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to bleed them dry in Kashmir. IF we could keep up a low-level of insurgency in Kashmir without massive blowback, I would be all in favor of it. Let the Indian Army bleed from a thousand cuts as we did in 1971, but the costs to us are too high. However, we are in no position to make this sort of strategy work. In fact, we are hurt more by it than are the Indians. As the losers here, we have to try to negotiate as best we can to salvage whatever little we can.

Fortunately for us, the Indians are also hurting over Kashmir (less than we are, though) and the US seems to be applying pressure all around. Maybe we can settle this once and for all, albeit more on their terms than ours, and get on with trying to rebuild Pakistan.

What say you all?

A Delightful Cut sameerjb (69)

aaah! thanks for the clarification and the background. in that case `humble` is just about right ;)

-p

A Delightful Cut Ferozk #74 I agree that the jehadi element in Pakistan is a threat to society in general, most of all to Pakistani society itself. But dont worry - they wont win because they are armed with mere guns, not with truth. And the truth is that the people of Pakistan are a fine, fine people - they are down-to-earth, hardworking, clean-living and intelligent.

So...You can ridicule us and our country because of our political and economic problems. You can equate all Pakistanis with the jehadis and condemn us all. No problem.

Like the ugly duckling, and with God`s Grace, Pakistan will in due course show it`s true colors and turn out to be the beautiful swan it is destined to be, and the finest part of the sub-continent.

The Other Asian Woman Dear ylh

You write:

``Nasah

So when I wanted to argue you people wanted to ridicule, and now vulgarity is no substitute for an argument.

I believe, that I have proved with evidence and facts not arguments and mock tough rhetoric India`s crimes against Humanity... Do you want more of those facts?``

This is what I am trying to tell you, son -- that if you are full of facts and u R -- you should be the last person to use vulgarity to buttress any fair or unfair criticism -- only when you go bankrupt on argument then you start cussing people -- or -- killing people.

I am glad that you -- like urstruly -- are against the blasphemy ``law`` killings -- because to kill a person in response to an argument shows the ultimate bankruptcy of intellect.

You also write:

``I am going to be busy for the next few days... and I will come back with a fresh attitude.... or rather like a blank page. I will leave it entirely upto all of you how you want me to interact...``

If you`ll leave it to us as to “how we want you to interact`` -- then the first thing you have to do -- is to APOLOGIZE to Mrs Hamidm and Mr. Hamidm for that very crude, crass, bazaari comment.

I was stunned that you with so much knowledge and such a fluent pen -- can go down to such a low grade talk – so fast -- like a street kid -- just because Hamidm made fun of you? Can`t you appreciate a good satire -- where is your sense of humor, young man -- shame on you -- so go ahead APOLOGIZE like a MAN.

A Delightful Cut Latif #71 Your post makes perfect sense. Wont have any affect though - hypocrisy and irrationality understands chhittar, not reason. Cheers.

Beware of Ariel Morons and Protect Your Children! sadna #354 Thanks for the explanation.

A Delightful Cut Ferozk #74

I`m just curious as to how a single Marine brigade (even if its a reinforced brigade with integral air support) is going to make any difference at all if Pakistan falls apart? I know that Marine divisions are about the size of US Army corps, but just how big is a Marine Brigade anyway? The size of TWO US Army Corps? Are you sure that the brigade is not supposed to merely assist in the evacuation of US and other diplomatic personnel in Islamabad? Granted, after the Gulf War when 1 American equalled 1,000 Iraqis, the US military thinks that it can kick any Mozzie ass anywhere, it will still take more than one Marine Brigade to pacify Pakistan. Even the British Raj, and they knew something about Pakistanis/Indians, thought that one Britisher was only worth two (at most three, if non-martial race) Indians.

While the average Pakistani soldier`s weapons handling skill is not up to that of the average US Marine`s, our army is not at the same pathetic level as that of the Iraqis or Saudis. At an individual level, its competence is (to be conservative) at least at par with that of the Egyptians/Jordanians/Indians, none of whom are exactly completely incompetent militarily. Heck, we train Jordanians.

Similarly, the various mujahideen/fundamentalist groups are not as incompetent militarily as the Iraqis either. Having fought the Russians and now the Indians for years, they too would need more than one Marine Brigade to be pacified. Mind you, I am not one of those idiots who think that the Afghans/Pathans are `unconquerable.` The only reason why the Soviets failed to pacify Afghanistan is that they did not, would not, commit more than 100-120,000 troops to the war. As far as the US goes, 550,000 soldiers (OK, the US Army`s Ice Cream soldiers have a teeth-to-tail ratio that would have shamed the Mughals) couldn`t pacify Vietnam. The US could have certainly bombed all of SE Asia back into the Stone Age (which it tried to do) but that defeats the purpose of the original intervention, n`est pas?

If the brigade was a typo, then I apologize. But I get quite ticked off, as you may have realized, about the level of US ignorance about our Army. I recall reading some years back a very well respected defense analyst, I think it might have been Cordesman, saying that the Jordanian Army had a training mission in Pakistan and that with their help we would convert to the M48A5 Pattons. What are the Jordanians going to train us to do? Other than ride camels? Actually, our Bahawalpur/Thar recruits are probably better camel jockeys than the Jordanians.

Regards.

The Imperatives of Power Re: Tahmed # 942

Yes well, you see this is what happened....

I was the first born to the Pharaoh who was cursed by the sun gods to die at the hands of his first offspring so unbeknownst to the great Pharaoh who would have rather allowed destiny to take its course, his more pragmatic second queen found it more expeditious to instruct her favorite maid to swath me in a bundle of blankets, stuff me in a straw basket and float me down the Nile which traces its way through the upper delta that houses the fisherman village which had a Chieftain named Salim Chappu, a name appropriately derived from his trade and his glorious possession of the Golden Chappu that had been passed on to him down the generations to sanctify his rightful position as the village chieftain that gave him first right to any discovered assets in the region which he judiciously used to commandeer my cherubic self that was one misty morning floating down the river and named me Latif Chappu and taught me the lessons of life and war which I later greatly utilized to slay my biological father the Pharaoh and slaughter his army in the mother of all wars at Al Kahira after which I migrated to the united states and am currently and ironically employed at a sea food restaurant on the fisherman`s wharf bussing empty bread bowls that used to contain shell fragment infested New England Clam Chowder!

So in a nutshell therefore, it is a tribe of some kind and yes... it has something to do with boating.

Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred Remember, Sikhashahi was synonymous with terror and tyranny. Avitable, the Italian governor of Peshawar under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, used to hand out jagirs whose rent was payable in Afghan (i.e., Pathan) heads. If I remember correctly, he had a sliding scale: something like 1 male head = 1+n female heads = 1 + xn children`s heads (sorry, don`t remember the exact ratio, although male children were worth more than female ones). I believe even Clive would have drawn the line at this! Lest we say that this was a White Male European thing, don`t forget that mothers in Hazara (NWFP) used to quieten their crying children with, ``Hush, or Hari Singh Nalwa will hear you!``

Of course, the Moghuls treated the Sikhs not much better. And the Mahrattas had good reason to hate (and be hated by, in turn) the Moghuls. And so on, ad infinitum.

Was the Raj perfect? Of course not.

Did it have no glaring faults? Of course it did.
Could it have done much better with relatively minimal effort/cost. Of course.

Was it better than what came before it? Of course.

Are we better off because of it? I would say yes.

Have we shown that we are morally superior to it? Of course not.

Look at how brutally we treat our own people: the E. Pakistan civil war, Baluch insurgency, Sindh MRD agitation, Punjab/Khalistan insurgency, Kashmir insurgency, NEFA/Assam insurgency, the Sri Lankan civil war and the list is seemingly endless. Oh yeah, all this is the Gora Saab`s fault and if he didn`t directly cause it, it is the inevitable result of the harsh, repressive, dehumanizing, fill in a few more adjectives here, nature of the colonial state.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Arun:

Before we get too ecstatic about how great our pre-Raj institutions were, any anthropologist/sociologist will tell you that a key, if not the key, function, of most traditional institutions (e.g., village panchiyats) is to ensure that the dominant power and socio-economic position of the existing village elites is maintained. If some have managed to make the traditional system (or variants thereof, e.g., the AKRSP in Pakistan) work, its because you have an outside agency that acts to keep the exising village elites in line.

Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred ylh #597 Now I see why you post at 90 mph - you cross-post!! (I just responded to this one on the other board). Would ataturk approve of that? (PS just kidding again, I need some comic relief from the serious stuff I am doing right now).

Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred Re: Pat #543

That your impression- that most of the foot soldiers taking it in the face during the civil disobedience movement were of the `illiterate masses` variety- was instigated by Sir Attenborough is worrisome to me. I watched that movie too and fail to understand why you got that impression. That is unless of course you assumed that those guys lining up and taking a lathi on their heads must be doing so as a result of their illiteracy. Or perhaps you got misguided by their ragged homespuns and assumed that those who donned such an attire must be yokels. Either of the above two deductions (if you made them) do disservice to the `composition` of those masses.

My late Grandpa was one of the leading defense attorneys in the state. I still remember his disfigured (but very functional) arm that resulted from a compound fracture at a rally very similar to the one described in the movie. Even though he wore homespun until he died, I would have a really tough time classifying him as illiterate.

Thought this perspective would shed a bit of light.

Latif Chappu.

P.S. Commendations on your Bilalesque demeanor with YLH. It is a great tribute to your communication skills and subtle understanding of his apparently permanent sophomoric mental constitution that he hasn`t yet turned around and blasted you like he did poor Bilal. Having said that however..... just you wait. :)

The Imperatives of Power devkant #945 ``i can also safely assume that in your formidable years`` You meant ``formative``, not ``formidable``. I will have to report this to Sir Temporal.

A Paki would never make such a dumb mistake: Now write back ten posts to refute this baseless allegation (as the formidable South Asian foreign office babus would put it). Help us achieve a 1000 posts on this board.

The Imperatives of Power latif chappu #934 I second the motion. We need some ylh machine gun posts to take us to a thousand. Ylh, you heard what he said - so go for it. Permit me to add that the Gray Wolf was actually a bit Pink, if you know what I mean. Hopefully this will spur you to action.

In the interests of fairness, allow me to say this to what-his-name jay: We Pakis are ten feet tall, we proclaim complete and utter superiority in everything, Pakistan`s GNP is actually 28% and you dont know it, we can beat you in cricket any day. So: write back and humiliate us and put us in our place. Send not one letter but many. Cross the thousand before this dumb board is history.

And as your you latif sahib, is chappu a tribe of some kind. Anything to do with boating?

The Imperatives of Power Re: all, esp. Yawaah Latifay Hamdani:

All right people... we are at interact no. 931 here.

Bilal Musharraf`s `My pappi is a good munchkin` article holds the record at 1189 replies. That means we have only 258 more interacts to go. Now shake it off get your asses in play!

Lets take it one interact at a time and give our 110% people... move it, move it, move it!!

For my part I am going to double post this message and issue the following statements that might `inspire` our superstar to bring his A game:

Hey YLH:

1. Gandhi is far more respected and revered compared to Jinnah.

2. Secular Islamic governance in an oxymoron.

3. Pakistan will never be a moderate state.

4. Imran will never be the leader of Pakistan.

Whaddaya haveta saytadat?

Now go ahead and give us hell sport. Do it for the gipper!

LC

The Burden of Virginity Re: Tahmed321

Its not acting as a batman that destroys and degrades a soldier`s spirit, its being treated as a virtual slave by the officer and his begum sahiba that does this. There is a big difference between a batman and a slave. The Gora Saab knew the difference. Our officers and, especially their wives, don`t.

I remember, in the stupidity and arrogance of youth, telling off a havildar (who was actually just doing his job) about something in no uncertain terms and being quite proud of how I had put the man, in front of several ORs, in his place. How dare a mere havildar tell me what to do!

I also recall my father`s reaction to this: he made it clear, also in no uncertain terms, that the man was the government`s servant and not mine and if I was to ever speak that way to any soldier again, my life would not be worth living and the next day I was to publicly apologize for my disgraceful behavior and ask for his forgiveness. I think the man was more embarrassed than I was.

Having to put up with stuff like this, day in and day out, from snot-nosed officer`s brats, and worse from their begum sahibas, is what destroys the batman`s spirit. Cleaning the officer`s shoes or polishing his pips does not.

Regards.