Aik Geet Re: Veeru

If you`re gonna come and visit us here at least have the courtesy of double posting to boost our count. Every little bit helps.

Boond boond se samandar bharta hay.

74 bottles of beer on the wall.

Aik Geet Gowardhan #1066 I happened to spot my chowk name in your post. I must admit it feels good to be presented as a good example. :-)

More seriously, I think the problem is not that people are as hate-filled in real life as they appear on chowk. Trouble is (and this is a well recognzied phenomenon) that written communication tends to seem more harsh than verbal. This has to do with human psychology that I wont get into here. The result is that anything negative elicits a harsher response. And so the vicious cycle escalates. Given some of the geniuses we have on chowk, this vicious cycle tends to escalate faster than if there was a more select or mature group interacting.

As for the cyberwarriors on chowk, they wouldnt know what cyberwar was if it hit them on the head: bs-ing on chowk is basically that and no more. Cyberwar includes the ability to by-pass firewalls and destroy data. Take over web sites. Carry out virus attacks.

I think it is important for the rest of us not to get sucked in by these morons and try to maintain a civil discussion on chowk.

Thanks again for thinking of yours truly (I use this phrase with hesitation, realizing that urstruly the cyberwarior has the patent for this on chowk). Cheers.

Love and Hate Online shammi #34 I suspect it was more than Mac to PC switch that caused the problems. The Air Traffic Control system also had a similar cost of hundreds of millions (or maybe billions) of $ over the years before someone decided to cut and start again. In the meantime, I think the existing infrastructure dates to the prehistoric era (going as far back as the 1960`s I think). Implementing computer systems is I think a much more complex undertaking than most people (particularly the business managers) are aware.

Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred Aeisha # 490

Unfortunately, none of those lengthy articles you quoted reflect the reality in India. If there`s so much of oppression sponsored by the government and your weirdly classified hindians etc., why`s there no one protesting en masse?

Whether its the Tamilians, keralites, kannadigas or gults, none of them have asked for independence or started any movement to that effect. Proof of the pie is in eating. Don`t you see that. What you don`t see is their immense contribution to India as a whole. Whether it be Kargill heights, economic development and government sector, they have all contributed equally if not more.

Oh, and one more thing, I`ve lived in those parts of India. Being a North Indian, I never felt, saw or experienced any bitterness from the people of these various states.

I`m afraid, the reality at your own home country is so baffling that the only recourse you are left to is try to find the same weaknesses in India, which are non-existent.

Adios

Beware of Ariel Morons and Protect Your Children! Re: Tahmed # 942

Yes well, you see this is what happened....

I was the first born to the Pharaoh who was cursed by the sun gods to die at the hands of his first offspring so unbeknownst to the great Pharaoh who would have rather allowed destiny to take its course, his more pragmatic second queen found it more expeditious to instruct her favorite maid to swath me in a bundle of blankets, stuff me in a straw basket and float me down the Nile which traces its way through the upper delta that houses the fisherman village which had a Chieftain named Salim Chappu, a name appropriately derived from his trade and his glorious possession of the Golden Chappu that had been passed on to him down the generations to sanctify his rightful position as the village chieftain that gave him first right to any discovered assets in the region which he judiciously used to commandeer my cherubic self that was one misty morning floating down the river and named me Latif Chappu and taught me the lessons of life and war which I later greatly utilized to slay my biological father the Pharaoh and slaughter his army in the mother of all wars at Al Kahira after which I migrated to the united states and am currently and ironically employed at a sea food restaurant on the fisherman`s wharf bussing empty bread bowls that used to contain shell fragment infested New England Clam Chowder!

So in a nutshell therefore, it is a tribe of some kind and yes... it has something to do with boating.

Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred Re: Harimau #369

Gen. Jacobs, I believe, made Lt. Gen.; I believe he and Gen. Niazi were coursemates (or at least colleagues) from WWII. You might have also mentioned that a Muslim was Chief of the Air Staff of the IAF and there have been several non-Hindu Indian Army COASs (Rodriguez, Manekshaw) and some of the ostensibly Hindu COAS were actually aboriginial nominal Hindus (Coorgis such as Cariappa and Thimmaya, although both were true Pukka Saabs, a compliment not an insult). I believe a Hyderabadi Muslim, S. M. Zaki, made Lt. Gen., in the Indian Army.

In our less obscurant days (the pre-Bhutto/Zia years), we Pakistanis were also mildly liberal as far as not persecuting our religious/ethnic minorities were concerned. I would like to mention, for example, such names as Justices Cornelius and Dorab Patel, Sir Zafarullah, Air Vice-Marshall Eric Hall, etc. I would also like to give honorable mention to Gen. Azam for sentencing Maulanas Maududi and Sami-ul-Haq, these learned men, to death for incitement to murder in the Lahore Qadiani riots in the 1950s. A cowardly civilian government commuted their sentences and then released them.

Since the 1970s, Pakistan`s track record on minority treatment is considerably worse than Indias, no matter what rabid Indophobes might say. However, all hope is not lost as Gen. Pervez Musharraf is in some ways a throwback to the more liberal days--although he has not had the nerve to live up to his initial impulses--did resist obscurantist demands and elevated Mr. Justice Bhagwan Das, a Sindhi Hindu, to the Supreme Court.
Perhaps his latest statements means that he has finally had enough?

Regards.

Love and Hate Online I think the IRS blew a huge amount ($100 m. is the round number I have heard) on false starts before finally getting somewhere. I guess they found God after that, setting the bar at Level 4 as you say. I recall about 5 years ago they blew $100m. trying to computerize the London Stock Exchange. The whole effort was scrapped - the reasons to have something to do with lack of user involvement (they were building an ``invisible palace``, one of the London newspapers reported back then). Although this is not an issue at this time in the press, I fear that investments in IT by the governments in poor countries may be incurring much waste due to poorly conceived projects, although probably at not such large amounts as happens in the rich countries. And the improvements with successful efforts (e.g. the reduction in elapsed time for processing civil cases in Karnatka from 9 years to 15 minutes in certain cases, bringing of land records within control) will in the long run definitely outweigh the losses due to unsuccessful ones.

Love and Hate Online shammi #28 Thanks for the url for the article on Bangalore, which I read with interest. A couple of observations:

The article mentions 26 firms worldwide (13 in India) that have achieved Level 5 status in the SEI CMM. I recall about three years ago there were only 4, with at least one (the Motorola team) in India. I have not followed developments on the CMM lately, but looks like it is pretty hard to get. The more general ISO 9000 ``certification`` seems to be much more widely given out.

Also, Economist.com has a special section on the Indian economy this time, and is generally quite upbeat and also provides some interesting insights.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga can anyone provide me information of english novels written by indian authors with the stories from regional background.

like ``god of small things`` is written with kerala in background.

or ``train to pakistan`` is about punjab.

i m intersted to know about such novels particularly if the r written about bengal, mahrashtra, orissa or assam.

Love and Hate Online to maia,

sorry to sound patronizing but Maia, it is important to understand the power of journalism and what it takes to reach the ever evasive totality of truth -

Just reiterating my earlier reply to the author:

``Your article is well written and we do need more people like you in Pakistan uncovering the truth and doing investigative journalism. I have immense respect for people like you who are at least doing their best and actually making a change in their country

But it is absolutely essential that all facts are taken into account before insinuations are made. Good lives of people can be ruined with the touch of a pen. The article is merely a skeleton that needs more data, logic and conclusive proof to back up its accusations``

Never go to Chaanga Maanga hobbyty #376 Incidentally, on your point about trying to fund some constructive activity in Pakistan: This is of course something every expat Pakistani should be doing - Two possibilities are (a) SOS, they run orphanages in Pakistan, and do a fine job last time I checked one of those near Rawalpindi, and (b) MMBMT, which helps communities start girls` schools in remote areas of Pakistan - the latter will actually identify the school being funded by you and you can visit the school when in Pakistan to see your $ times 64 at work. I dont think chowk is the right forum to start such exercises, nor is it necessary. Chowk is a good forum for building understanding and discussing issues, but I dont think one can do much more here. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I think.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga R.K.Narayan, i heard about the writer long time ago when i searched for indian writers of fiction in english.When i read ``God of small things`` by arundhati roy i was fallen in love with kerala and enjoyed the readings very much. this led me to search for more writers of india in english and there i find N.K.Narayan`s name. But being in pakistan it was difficult to have a book of Narayan so i m still unable to read the books of narayan. I wish any of the indians could give us the links of the books or essays by the writer so that we can also read the writings of Mr. narayan.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga sadna #373 you write ``If you think I owe you an explanation...``

I did not say you owed me an explanation. I said you did not have one.

OK: I know all this must be very annoying to you, but you really need to reflect a bit on your posts. Sorry in any case for offending you throughout this board for whatever reason, so please cheer up and smile and enjoy the day.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga sadna #369 ``its impossible to have any meaningful interaction with a person such as myself who is continuously under suspicion of being a spy in the pay of the Indian government ``

You were accused of bigotry, not espionage. Show me one line from anyone on this board on which you base your post. It is always better to admit your mistake, even offer regrets for it, and to move on rather than to keep trying to prove yourself right (by changing the story, as you are now doing). Otherwise you become a smaller person then your mistakes.

PS Hope you enjoy getting moralized (as per above) as much as you enjoy moralizing. :-)

Love and Hate Online In response to Mr Shakir reply no 19:

You wrote:

``this deal was quite lucrative so why was it that only one company bid for a huge and lucrative infrastructure JV??``

Good point. Please answer your own question becuase your article fails to do so. It is these holes in your argument -ie these answered questions that I have a problem with. It is your illogical deductive thinking that leads you to make assumptions that need further evidence and research. Additionally there are many other questions I have that I would like you to explore

1)Did only one company bid? Who else wanted to?

2) what were the the pre-reqs and qualifications for the bid?

3) who are other companies in the Pakistani network infrastructure market that you feel could potentially do such a joint venture?

My own view point is that PTCL and most of Pakistan has a problem with landing investment - foreign or local . Huge firms espcially big infrastructure firms are not neccessarily investing in Pakistan with just firms like Nortel (and a few others) selling network components to Pakistan. I don`t see them investing in Pakistan anytime soon and I really don`t know if Pakistanis ISPs and infrastructure telcos have the monetary capital to invest in such a JV. Maybe ACL were the only people to invest in such a project because Pakistan is such a crazy place for investment (the only fools PTCL could get 4.8Million from) or maybe it was an under handed deal like your article has implied. But the fact of the matter is you need more proof and better information to say that it was a dirty deal. For all intense purposes the deal could be totally viable -not stupid neither corrupt.

Secondly leading from this point I never categorically denied your argument but merely stated that you cannot make your accusations with out obtaining more proof. To help you out and being in London I have located Akthar technologies phone number. Please give this CEO Mr. Mughal a call and say that Herald would like to interview him. (Hopefully Herald would pay for the costs). I think a lot of people would be interested to hear thic chap`s point of view and answer the questions that you yourself have not been able to get to the bottom of. Maybe then we can really see things in perspective and maybe then you yourself can finish your investigative article and gain credibility.

44 01279 821 200

Thirdly you wrote:

``Why should PTCL share revenues when it doesn`t need to. A JV is undertaken for two reasons: 1) a lack of expertise, and 2) a lack of capital.``

A JV could be taken for a number of reasons but primarily to make money. Hence to reduce the risk of a new investment (ie tele-housing) a joint partner might not neccessarily have the required expertise (though I presume hardware components and networking will be required -something ACL can provide) but a Joint partner can provide capital only .

Fourthly the other question I had relates to what you wrote in the article:

``The amount is a paltry US$ 4.48 million invested over a period of three years and not the US$ 30 million as stated by press release on PTCL’s website. Under the terms of this Agreement PTCL will have a 51% stake in this venture, while ACL will hold a 49% stake``

Back to tahmed`s point - How the hell can ACL expect 51% in the venture if if has only put in 4.48m out of a 30M investment even over a 3 year period? Either my friend you have your numbers wrong or the PTCL can`t even add up numbers. Plus money that is made (ie profit) should be shared according to % investment. This is basic business. Also you mentioned that ACL would invest over a period of time and would be use their profit stream generated from the JV back into the JV. Nothing wrong with that. Would have to look at the business model but it sounds a pretty risky venture from the ACL point of view and a good deal from PTCL`s view point of reducing their own risk.

Fifthly you wrote:

``Government will be sending negative signals to two very important types of investors``

WHy? If anything a joint venture if implemented well could spur growth in the telco industry and get local ASPs and ISPs to generate more revenue from telehousing by providing more services.

Sixthly to your point of ACL expertise and implementation. You yourself have mentioned that it is a JV and that PTCL can do most of the services. The question you have to ask yourself is why ACL? In my opinion it could be the investment and even the expertise in hardware and software that is required to run a tele-house. PTCL has the knowledge of its infrastructure and network (why does it need someone else who does?) it might just need a PC company that can provide servers, PCs, hardware and basic software to service these tele-houses. ACL might just prove the bill. Please do more homework.

And to SameerJB and the very poetic Khursid - remember very time you might not understand something - jumping to conspiracy theories that the there is back hand dealing etc. is a very dangerous way to live in civil society. Yes I agree that in pakistan there is an immenese amount of corruption and government officials are always wanting kick backs, but to always, always jump to conclusions without seeing the whole picture condemns good innocent people. I have seen Mr. Mughal (ACL) speak at a venue and he seems to be a hard working low key conservative chap who has always aspired to return the success he has achieved abroad back to his country. It is important that we un-cover more facts and data before you condemn companies and people.

One day we might not trust any Pakistani at all and we end up living in a McCarthy era where even good people are bad.

Love and Hate Online shakir #19 You write ``As for doing my homework, I think I did more than enough. ``

I took the trouble of explaining my statement concerning your homework. You ignore my explanations, and simply reject what I was trying to get through to you. Such arbitrary pronouncements can be expected from a mullah or a military despot, but falls short of the level of self-confidence and professionalism one would expect from a journalist. One can hardly expect an intelligent discussion based on this attitude.