Love and Hate Online gfm #20 Good job in providing Mr. Mughal`s phone number to Mr. Shakir so he can listen to a different point of view than that of PTCL bureaucrats. :-)

I remember many years ago I took a job interview with the state government of Michigan at our university placement office. The interviewer from the state government posed the following question: ``Suppose you are working for the Michigan state government and VW applies for building an auto plant in Michigan. How would you handle it?`` Having just spent an year training with the Pakistan civil service, my (very poor) response was: I would reject it, since if there were any good investment opportunities they should be given to Michigan firms like GM or Ford. The interviewer gently informed me that the correct answer would be to give them a big welcome since the more investors there are, the more competition there is, the better off the people of Michigan would be.

I have reflected on that interview a number of times in the intervening years, and realize the wisdom behind the interviewer`s viewpoint. Here are some illustrations:

(a) Even an advanced country like Germany was lagging behind in the telecom (and in IT generally) due to a slow-moving Deutsche Telecomm. Then Deutsche Telecomm was privatized. And now things are a lot different and DT is busy expanding as I understand it (having recently completed the very public purchase of a key US tech firm, Voicestream). (b) Another example: the reason Finland is the world leader in wireless telephones is that in the 1930`s they privatized their radio stations and Finland had 40 private stations and has remained very dynamic in this field.

(c) Closer home, in a different sector, the commercial banking sector of Pakistan was a progressive and thriving sector until Bhutto killed the goose that laid the golden eggs by nationalizing it. Trying to undo that, as with the Muslim Commercial Bank is a long and painful process (but well worth it, since MCB I understand is doing much better after privatization).

Shakir sahib`s viewpoint (never mind the lack of figures and all that you and I have already pointed out to him) reminds me of the same inward looking mentality that infect Pakistan (and indeed most third world country).

I agree that one needs to make sure that we need a good regulatory framework along with privatization, but I dont think the Pakistani civil service can do it, given its current mindset and incentives structure. They are trying to fix that by improving government pay scales, so let us see.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga re: hobbyty # 361

Your post gave me great hope and caused me much despair. I will point out just two reasons for despair.

1. There is a property of human mind, hobbyty, that makes the viciousness and hatred of those on `our` side always appear to us as `cute`, `charming immaturity`, `very funny`, or even `rational` to us; while exactly similar sentiments when expressed by those on the `enemy` side are taken as clear manifestations of pure evil. It requires a great strength of character, continuing internal struggle, and clarity of thought to be able to overcome this strong bias. But unless we do that, all talk of civility and constructive engagement is futile.

2. Both Indians and Pakistanis need to build proud identitities. If Indians could only assert their glory by calling Pakistanis (not Muslims since Pakistan is not Islam) an evil bunch of bullies who always defrauded, manipulated, and cheated gentle, decent, and honorable Indians, Pakistanis could not be expected to care much for such Indian glory. The same is true for Indians. Again, so long as we even remotely justify our existence on the basis of the other`s `evil nature,` it is silly to think that peaceful discourse can prevail.

My solution is different. Let us join hands. Let us build bridges. But let us do so not by cursing each other but by recognizing that God Almighty placed beauty in every land and among every people. Let us honor each other. Peace and civility will follow.

There are no short cuts.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga Thanks krashid. I was a bit confused with the word ``tel`` as written in English letters, although of course I know the word now that you mention that it means oil.

I have a feeling that even the income tax officer will realize (like I have) that he is beating his head against a wall if he tries to get tel out of some of the sesame seed on this board. :-)

Never go to Chaanga Maanga Hobbyty #361 Your post was on target (and you were quite generous with me, and I thank you for that) and came from the heart.

In this post you provided an answer to the question you posed earlier on how best we can contribute to the people of South Asia(I had promised to think about it). The answer is, as is clearly implied throughout your post, to use our time on chowk to promote understanding and respect for one another, rather than to promote divisions and generate hatreds and make accusations. Chowk is not only uniquely positioned for this purpose.

And the first step in that direction, as you very correctly point out, is to treat each other as individuals (which is all that we are) and not as government officials sitting across a table or as some kind of cyber-warriors engaged in an epic struggle. It is exactly the talk of ``collective responsibility`` you decry that lies at the root of much injustice in the world: Timothy McVeigh held the US government ``collectively responsible`` for the killing of 68 people in Waco, and killed 168 innocent people with this justification. He goes to his execution on Monday without seeming to have understood the tragic error he made with his concept of ``collective responsibility``.

The only part of your post I would not agree with is the part on Indian posters being more prone to this hate-mongering than Pakistani posters. There are many Indian posters (Shankar is one of them, but people like Pankaj, Harpreet, Shammi, Cheraym, Elayva and lately harimau as well and others) who are fine examples of responsible, decent posters of the kind you appeal for. And they are far more entertaining than the hate-filled or otherwise offensive posts that others generate. I am sure many Indian posters must feel the same way about Pakistani posts, when the truth is that the vast majority of posters on both sides have no desire for such mindless, monotonous accusations.

Having said that, I think you make an important appeal for treating posters as individuals and not as embodiments of evil, and for respecting everyone`s religious beliefs and countries and cultures. So thanks again for the post.

Love and Hate Online Dear Shakir: Thanks for responding to my questions. Your responses are quite inadequate, unfortunately, as follows:

On your point (a), you say ``PTCL was matching ACL`s contribution``. If one accepts what you say, then this means PTCL is providing $4.5 million. But then PTCL and ACL together put in $9 m, and this leaves a gap of $21 million (total investment being $30 million, per your article). Who is this annonymous sugar-daddy who is putting in two-thirds of the investment that you ignore in your article and ignore in responding to my explicit question? I can only conclude that you are not interested in facts, and are just putting in a couple of numbers to create the impression of investigative reporting in what is basically a jumble of misconceptions and rhetoric.

On (b), if printed matter was indeed used in analyzing the financial aspects of the deal, then whoever used it did, for reasons described above, did a shoddy job of presenting the figures.

On (c), if ``ACL was contacted via e-mail but there was no response``, then this should have been mentioned in the article. And from your lack of response on my question regarding contacting the privatization commission I assume they were not contacted at all. And yet, it is the privatization commission that is most directly answerable to the public on this question. I find it astounding that you leave out basic facts, you leave out the point of view of other concerned parties, and respond (later on in your post) to gfm by saying that if there are other aspects he should let you know.

I would welcome investigative reporting like this. As gfm correctly notes, responsible journalism is an important foundation for a civilized society. But your article does nothing more than provide public forum for presenting the point of view of a bunch of PTCL bureaucrats jealously guarding any intrusion into their empire.

In future, if you wish to develop a career as an investigative journalist, I would suggest doing your homework and presenting facts from which the reader can draw his conclusions.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga shankar: While it is generous of you to count yourselves among the mudslingers, I dont recall a single post from you that has been of that nature. You have invited insults from some Indian posters with your principled stand. And there are more people like you on chowk than the mudslingers, as in real life normal people vastly outnumber the hate-filled psychopaths.

Love and Hate Online krashid #5 bhai, itna ghusa??

Never go to Chaanga Maanga Mahesg #341 ``Is it so wrong to point out what kind of harm your countrymen are doing to us? ``

I would engage in discussion with you on these matters, but having seen the way you ignored my previous sincere responses to your questions, I shall pass the opportunity. Have a nice day.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga MaheshG #341 ``Isn`t it an unstated agreement among most of the Pakistanis to sponsor Jehad against India?``

No.

Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

``Eklavya - a tonne of anything let alone pearls - will kill for sure !!``

True, aicha, but nothing else will bring half as much pleasure...

``You seem to be too much afraid of dying.``

Oh dear Aamir,

I am the last person to be afraid of dying, especially when my killer is so very special as she is...

BTW patangas have come and gone. I am taking complete control of this shamma.

Mere sher bhi naye hain, Aamir bhai, mera andaaz bhi naya

main un patango me nahin hoon jinka janaja nikal gaya.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga Shanker #323 Thanks brother. ;-)

Never go to Chaanga Maanga Mahesh #311 One may define a bigot to be someone who is routinely and strongly partial to one`s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. I believe Sadna fits that definition. Her post #246 on this board (which caused me to term her a bigot) was as follows:

``Any estimate of how many Pakistanis have died fighting in Afghanistan or Kashmir? Do even Pakistanis care to record it? First they condone the brainwashing of their poor and their orphans, send them to die overseas `by their own choice`. (Catch any of them sending their own children for God`s reward). Then drink to `victories` but if any of these unfortunates happen to survive and return home, label them bigots and declare their existence within the national borders to be against national interest? How can such hypocrites(who are also plain stupid) prick anyone`s conscience, may I ask?``

I find this offensive, and hope you will agree with me.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga narain #278 Agreed. I think there are some people on chowk who would benefit from reading your post every night until it finally penetrates their heads.

sadna: when you stereotype any group of people, as you routinely do with Pakistanis, then you are a bigot. And I agree that after our last interaction I realized that trying to reason things with you was as futile as trying to reason things with urstruly or jay. I feel sorry for you people.

Never go to Chaanga Maanga sadna #259 but madam how can I ignore it if you say that Pakistanis send orphans to die and since I am Pakistani? Surely I cannot allow myself to keep sending all those poor orphans to die! Now if only I could get my memory back so I can recall how I sent those orphans to die that you are talking about!

Never go to Chaanga Maanga krashid #210 Glad to learn about your good feelings about Panjabis. Actually, I dont think you are the type who goes through life hating this group of people or that. Life`s too short for that anyway. And I agree: the real fight is for building a civilized, law-abiding society in Pakistan, and by law-abiding I definitely include the military that needs to understand that (as I said earlier) its job is that of the Bank chowkidar not that of Bank manager and it needs to stop conquering Pakistan whenever it feels like it. Having said that, I dont know how to make it stop conquering us every few years.

Protest in New York! Regarding Hamidm`s posts.

There are many people at chowk who belong to one class or another, but Hamidm is a class by himself. Somebody mentioned his posts should be collected and posted as a separate column, that will be a great idea. He posseses a great skill where irony of the subcontinent is blended with his wit, and his dotted style. As Dost-Mittar mentions, he does not need any defense. But Hamdim, if Pakistanis are mad at you, you can write more about we the monkey-worshippers across the border. We really do not mind (here taking the liberty of the hardliners); But do not stop:)