The Pattern of Hatred Re: Roohi and India unvarnished

Morad ali Baig shared his work at Chowk; Chowk would welcome a similar attempt on Pakistan or anywhere else. As for the quality, please post your critiques. Our comment on the required qualifications is that asking questions is the best qualification. Perhaps you could attempt a rebuttal based on historical research and your own perceptions. Even though it would take time, it would be a fresh perspective.

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Re:142

Chowk did not receive your posts.

1971: A Forgotten Story In order to provide an example of the kind of abuse that is NOT posted at Chowk, we have posted a response below by Zico.

Chowk Staff requests interactors to stop personal and abusive attacks. Further posts with abusive attacks on interactors will not be validated. That means that a similarly abusive response to Zico will NOT be validated. We request interactors that they DO NOT respond in kind--either here or at any other board. Their posts can not be validated under Chowk interact guidelines.

Jan-12-02 13:57:50 EST Reply #: 131
Zico

Javed Iqbal;


``Zico, Rsux, spgalph and other dhoti/lungi clads, I will get back to you over the weekend. Don`t have much time now.``

.................................................

Javed (ali1) doesnt have much time because he was busy with his two African-American boyfriends, Leroy and Calvin. They have a subscription porn site....3 way Paki-Afro boy action. Ali is a popular player, I hear he has some frat boys coming up next. Wears his Shalwaar kameez for exotic effect.

A New Year Eve In Kabul’s Ruins Anwar:

The version we received is the version that has been posted (including the 1998 year). If you want any revisions, these have to be forwarded to editors@chowk.com

regards

No Fault Of Mine Re: Ylh and Latif Chappu

A posts was edited because the conversation was becoming irrelevant and abusive and encouraging more of the same type of posts. Please refrain from that because the interact space is meant to add information/criticism. This is a common space and irrelevant and abusive interacts spoil it for all readers. We realise that if one person goes over the limit, the other person is tempted to respond in kind, however, please try to support your response either with rational, clean arguments or ignore completely. Chowk prefers to let all posts go through, however when a cycle of abuse sets in, we have no choice but to adhere to interact guidelines.

India Unvarnished The following response is from Murad Baig


Since my last reply on October 17th, there have been 22 responses. Most have been uncomplimentary and a few quite appreciative.

In `Unvarnished’, I had tried not to be dogmatic and had mainly attempted to make readers look out of the box of conventional history and folklore to consider many alternatives to the popular and sometimes dubious ideas about the Indian subcontinent’s varied past. I have sought to question these rather than assert that another point of view was correct.

I am VERY WILLING to stand corrected on any point where I may be in error. Actually the voluminous responses have often been very instructive and I will readily incorporate many corrections in my long overdue next draft.

Pullu may have a point in saying that the conclusions in this essay indicate a strong debt to Persia. Actually the full story of Persia’s huge contribution to the irrigation, buildings, arts, music, food, literature, language and culture of the Indian subcontinent has never been written. It hugely influenced not only India but also Arabia and West Asia.

Actually, but for the accident of Muhammad being born in Arabia, most of the wealth of its so-called Islamic culture were the contributions of the older civilisations of Babylon, Persia and Egypt. Even Sufiism predates Islam as the Persian `Sophists’ had been around even in Alexander’s time. Later they added many spiritual spins to orthodox Islam.

The Indian subcontinent has been subject to these and many other influences and has absorbed them to make them part of its own evolving ethos. Very little is absolutely original in any society and every country, including the aforementioned ones, develops its own elaborations that gradually becomes a part of its own culture. We can all be proud of our creations and need have no shame if some of the roots began elsewhere.

It is also true that there is some element of Brahmin bashing. But this is not anything personal against the Brahmins as a caste for they have also been praised as the keepers of knowledge and who have had a huge role in the shaping of our ethos. Positively they made major contributions to philosophy, literature and intellect. But it cannot be denied that they also erected and maintained an abhorrent caste system that was to be the downfall of the country.

I do not agree that the indigenous people of India were automatically Hindu. I believe that the earliest people in India, as in all lands, had no `religion’. They were then, as many I have met in the mountains and forests of India still are, simple worshippers of animistic spirits of mountains, rocks, streams, trees, etc. Deities with many local names. No priests no religion.

`Hinduism’ as a `religion’ needed Brahmin priests, the caste system, Vedic verses and rituals. And these too changed through the ages. Vedic deities like Indra and Nesatyas were superceded by the Puranic deities of Shiv and Vishnu that emerged in the declining years of Buddhism while the worship of Ram and Krishna only emerged during the declining years of Mughal rule.

Dharma, karma, himsa, ahimsa, etc., may be Sanskrit words but Sanskrit like all languages took loan words from and gave loan words to other earlier and later languages. Many self-proclaimed champions of India’s culture are surprisingly ignorant about India’s real Sanskriti. Many who complacently believe that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages would be horrified to know that before modern Sanskrit codified by Panini in the 4th century BC, there were still older Sanskrit languages that were the daughters of an even more ancient language similar to an extinct old Persian.

They would be shocked to learn that Devanagri, the script of modern Sanskrit, was India’s fifth script and that the earliest sacred writings were in Khoroshti that, like Persian was written from right to left. Then came Brahmi lipi. The oldest text in classical Sanskrit dates to Rudradaman, after the time of Christ, or four centuries after Ashoka’s inscriptions in Pali. Devanagri itself seems to have come from south India and had probably evolved from the older Akkadian and Sumerian cuneiform of ancient Babylon.

Language, culture, traditions and religion have never been constant. Even the word Hindu was not originally the name of a religion but just a geographical expression coined by the Persians to describe their 19th province of western India. All people living beyond the Indus or Sindhu were described as Hindu. By this definition every Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi is Hindu.

It was no different with Christianity or Islam that evolved over the generations and had many good and bad champions. These revealed religions and their champions have much to be proud of and ashamed of as well. These were evangalistic religions that strived to convert those who they considered unbelievers who needed to be saved from idolatory and ignorance. The pity is that some chauvinist Hindus today want to imitate their intolerance and aggressive evangalism.

I have never said that Hindus are weak/corrupt and that Muslims are smart/honest. No race or religion is good/bad per se and there are many examples of either. And I have no desire to go to Pakistani as I feel, despite many imperfections, that there is much greater freedom of thought in India.

Dost Mittar, I am not being an apologist for anyone. The arrogance and narrow intolerance of so many Muslim rulers, clerics and their followers is appalling. Tragically all religions are tolerant and magnanimous in their times of greatness and become narrow and intolerance with the bitterness that follows periods of their decline. Perhaps some of the well documented examples of such intolerance need to be highlighted.

I agree with most of Mojahirs observations and am grateful for his elaborations.

Ghulam is right that the early questions are simplistic but it is surprising how many people believe India was the oldest civilisation, that most Indians originated in India, and that the varnas were ordained by god, Sanskrit was the mother of all languages and that the Aryans originated in India, etc. I have merely tried to question such dogmatism and put such prejudices in a factual perspective.

The Golden Bough by James George Frazer is a classic defining the magical roots of all religions. All religions began with simple spirituality and died when they became overwhelmed by an excessive baggage of ritual and superstition.

Krashid is absolutely right. The Hadith is not part of the Koran but is usually read with it to interpret any point of theology.

Part of the problem was that Brahmins made common folklore into virtual scripture unlike the epic myths and legends of other great civilisations. So many Indians feel criticism of myth is a virtual assault on their culture. They even codified even sculpture, medicine and other basic crafts into sacred shastras. While these contain the collective wisdom of many centuries, they also killed individuality and creativity.

Thank you Smellycat for your elaboration on the Kashi Vishwanath temple. The example shows how there can be many reasons for destroying temples and that myth and history are sometimes hard to separate. In fact there are many contradictions in Aurangzeb’s fairly well documented history. He was much more pragmatic and tolerant in the early part of his reign and even endowed some 36 temples including one at Chitrakoot that I visited three months ago. In his last bitter years, in what began as a fight against the Shia rulers of Golkonda and Bijapur, he stayed in the Deccan and alienated almost all his old allies including the Rajputs and stirred up the rebellions of the Marathas and Sikhs. During this period, many temples were demolished not only on his orders but even by some of his Hindu Amirs who thought it bring them Imperial favour.

Ghazni’s temple (and palace) destruction seems to have been almost entirely motivated by loot. His annual excursions reached many different rich targets from 1000 AD. A city near Peshawar in 1001, Bhatia on the Jhelum, a Muslim city in Multan. A great citadel and temple in Kangra in 1008 in whose vaults, the Shahis had accumulated 180 kilos of gold, 2 tonnes of silver, other booty valued at 70 million dirhams and a complete house of silver. Thanesar followed in 1010 ``with plunder impossible to recount``. Mathura followed in 1018 and Kanauj the following year. Muhammad returned with 20 million dirhams, 53,000 slaves and 350 elephants. He only targeted Somnath in 1025 where a reported 50,000 devotees allowed themselves to be slaughtered. The booty was so huge that his armies staggered back with great difficulty facing raiding bandits on the way. He was no religious fanatic and even had a Hindu army fight his Muslim rivals in Central Asia. He died in 1030.

It is difficult to be absolutely objective in history. Many facts can be disputed and even with these several different theories can be sincerely held. There are also many myths that breed prejudice and discord.

I do not wish to either praise or condemn anyone and have tried to avoid taking hard positions but to pose interesting and plausible counterpoints to some conventional ideas. I have attempted to challenge the socially damaging preconceived prejudices held by so many and stimulate some freethinking about our origins, religion, culture and history. The strong reactions confirm that many readers may also need to open their own minds. I am happy to have generated considerable intelligent response and also sorry if I have upset anyone.

A Rainy Day Due to a posting error an earlier poem by Lyahus was getting displayed. The correct poem is now being displayed.

We apologize for the inconvenience. Sorry Lyahus. Sorry InterActors!

Illusion Begets Magic Chowkwallas:

Chowk is hosting a poetry week till the 1st of April. This week is especially to appreciate the wonderful poets who have sent some great stuff to us. And to provide some change in flavour to the readers of Chowk.

Please share poems in your replies and give feedback on the posted poems.


To a Fun week!


Chowk Staff

A Little Death
Chowk is hosting a poetry week till the 1st of April. This week is especially to appreciate the wonderful poets who have sent some great stuff to us. And to provide some change in flavour to the readers of Chowk.

Please share poems in your replies and give feedback on the posted poems.

To a Fun week!

Chowk Staff

Open Letter to Prime Minister Vajpayee Following response was received directly from Anand


dear friends
what an amazing thing this type of south asian chatline! one is reaching people one doesnt know and im amazed at some of the responses. when i
criticized pakistani``jehad`` i did not mean to criticize the act of fighting for kashmiri independence(im more and more convinced that this is the most just solution although i still believe that non-violence is a morally
superior method and the only method i could whole heartedly endorse). i was criticizing the idea that any ``war`` can ever be ``holy``. what a poor opinion of god that reflects! a vengeful god who asks for blood!
surely human beings who abdicate the responsibility of making moral choices
to a ``superior`` force are escape artists. and of course the belief in jehad,or dharmayuddha or holy war is not the copyright of any single
religion but rather a common failing of most religions that use coercion and fear as their weapon to bind their flock together.

im amused and bemused. one guy thought i was a pakistani in disguise!
another thought ah these indians, they always reveal themselves, no matter
how progressive.

personally i do not need any god to tell me that we are all badly in need of love in this world. love that cuts across class, caste, creed and
nation. i know that sounds corny, but ill say it anyway. love, anand

What Constitutes Blasphemy?

Following response by Studebaker is being reposted. Dues to an error this coukld not get published:


There is some responsibility of the paper and its employees particularly those responsible for monitoring ,editing & allowing materials to be published.It certainly ,reflects the philosophy and point of view of the paper ,by condoning such material.No freedom of expression gives total freedom to a person to get his thought published.The owner of the publication reserves that right under best of free press in the most free country.
I have had my views refused to be printed or posted on the internet forum,with much less outlandish claim than blashphemy,sacriligeous and offensive that the letter as reported.Its accepted law above the freedomof speech Lets not mistake this suppression of freedom,or censorship but rather exercising the right of the publication not exerting its right fully responsibly.

Oppression of women in Pakistan: Myth or Fact A gentle reminder that there are certain guidelines for InterActing on Chowk. Over the last few months we have allowed discussions to diverge and digress quite a lot. The hope was that over time we will regress to a ``steady state`` level and in the process discover and celebrate an indigenous Chowk culture/identity.

In the process we have succeeded in establishing the fact that Chowk can rise above most forms of prejudice and pettiness - but we still have a long way to go before we can proudly proclaim that Chowk has intrinsically become so strong and vibrant that troublemakers are instantly identified and made to feel unwelcome.


Gentle reader, writer, lurker, settler, squatter -please share your good self with Chowk and lets not insult each other.


sincerely
Chowk Staff

The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives A gentle reminder that there are certain guidelines for InterActing on Chowk. Over the last few months we have allowed discussions to diverge and digress quite a lot. The hope was that over time we will regress to a ``steady state`` level and in the process discover and celebrate an indigenous Chowk culture/identity.

In the process we have succeeded in establishing the fact that Chowk can rise above most forms of prejudice and pettiness - but we still have a long way to go before we can proudly proclaim that Chowk has intrinsically become so strong and vibrant that troublemakers are instantly identified and made to feel unwelcome.


Gentle reader, writer, lurker, settler, squatter -please share your good self with Chowk and lets not insult each other.


sincerely
Chowk Staff

For a few words of love A gentle reminder that there are certain guidelines for InterActing on Chowk. Over the last few months we have allowed discussions to diverge and digress quite a lot. The hope was that over time we will regress to a ``steady state`` level and in the process discover and celebrate an indigenous Chowk culture/identity.

In the process we have succeeded in establishing the fact that Chowk can rise above most forms of prejudice and pettiness - but we still have a long way to go before we can proudly proclaim that Chowk has intrinsically become so strong and vibrant that troublemakers are instantly identified and made to feel unwelcome.

Gentle reader, writer, lurker, settler, squatter -please share your good self with Chowk and lets not insult each other.

sincerely
Chowk Staff

When Pinky Broke My Heart This is a clarification for those readers who have expressed concern about Chowk editorial policies:

The author`s note at the end was amended from:

``Dear Naamaloom: Finally, I have found enough courage to tell your story to all. Would it make my pain go away? I am so sorry I couldn’t save you…….so sorry. Please forgive me.``

to

``Author`s note: Dear Naamaloom; Finally, I have found the courage to tell your story to all. I am sorry I couldn’t save you.``

Headache and Heartburn RE: PM

Your reply did not appear in our file. If, possible, please resubmit.

Chowk Staff