Love in the Time of Kargil bina

`...and we all know that we can invent flying machines but when they fail for whatever reason, down we plunge - our bodies do not suddenly sprout wings in order to save us from certain death!).`

does that mean that youve never flown/do not fly on aeroplanes ;-)

and you still havent answered my question my friend i didnt ask why islam doesnt consider a marriage between a muslim woman and a non muslim man islamic what i asked is why you wouldnt marry a non islamic man or is that your reason because you think your marriage wouldnt be seen as islamic if so then i have to say that that seems a pretty flimsy reason to me id also like to say that no matter how you cut it the fact as you see it that muslim men can marry non muslim women but muslim women cannot marry outside their religion is as far as i can see sexist and wrong

oh and my friend says what she did is none of your concern either ;-)

djiin ;-)

Love in the Time of Kargil bina

i have no sympathy for the jws they criticise all other religions and claim godly and biblical authority to so do they break up families they discourage their adherents from seeking a university education they claim only a select predetermined number only of their religion will get to heaven im giving them too much credit calling them a religion theyre a cult plain and simple but i digress

i have a query concerning something you said here sometime earlier about not being able to marry a non muslim man recently a muslim friend of mine got married to a non muslim man and there were no conversions involved she still considers herself a `true` muslim and im sure youd not disagree that she has a right to do so if you see no problem with my friends marriage- (whether you see it as an islamic marriage or not is moot my friend was married in a masjid under full islamic rites so try telling her her marriage was not an islamic one)-what id like to know is why do you think islam prevents you from marrying a non muslim i know you already replied to a similar query from rishi by saying you have to accept certain limitations and you used a flying analogy that rishi refuted well (and you didnt respond to) but i do hope youll humor me i dont want to be precious about this but i would like to know does this also mean that youd never date a non muslim or would you if only it was understood that it could never lead to marriage or could it lead to marriage if he converted

thanks a bunch

djiin

His Gift re rishi

`...everyone seems to be complaining about the quality of the artiles...`

surely you mean articles, my friend

re zahra

its not how you said what you said but what you actually said

`...writing fiction is very different from writing based on ones observations and experiences.`

what else is the writer to write about if not of his personal observations and experiences as trite as it may sound write about what you know is an adage that still holds in any case one should always strive for truth which is not of course the same as writing about something that actually happened something might not have actually happened but that doesnt mean its not true i went a bit tangential there but i hope you get my point

His Gift that should have been `found only two articles to be of any real quality` not `found only two articles that i found to be of any real quality` which is of course repititious and the `that` is of course incorrect

goodness the bad writing here seems to be rubbing off

His Gift zahra

`But when it comes to portrayal of writings by women from our origin ``Pakistan``, I can tell you very different perspectives. The ones who have been writing here are just one side of the picture there is another side far more intense, genuine and thought provoking. That does not imply that the writers here lack that. But that tells a lot what is not said and is covered in the fine garb of ``Words by Sanfae Nazuk``.`

im not exactly sure what you`re saying here

`Well, I ended up telling you that BECAUSE writing fiction is very different from writing based on ones observations and experiences.`

or here

but i took a look at the front page of chowk and found only two articles that i found to be of any real quality sakinas untitled and binas his gift but then what the hell do i know

djiin (not djiian or djinn)

Love in the Time of Kargil bina

whatever you do please dont come to my door bearing religious propoganda i mean literature whenever jehovahs witnesses come to my door i try to engage them in theological and philosophical debate but all those lemmings want to do is fob off their magazines and pamphlets on you for a small contribution of course as if they were the last word in everything buts thats another story

ive been rereading on liberty but since your reading time is currently being engaged by dead russian american writers light of my life fire of my loins and all that naughty stuff shame on you as a good muslim should you be reading such things anyway i came across this you might find it of interest

`And while, in the morality of the best Pagan na- tions, duty to the State holds even a disproportionate place, infringing on the just liberty of the individual; in purely Christian ethics that grand department of duty is scarcely noticed or acknowledged. It is in the Koran, not the New Testament, that we read the maxim--``A ruler who appoints any man to an office, when there is in his dominions another man better qualified for it, sins against God and against the State.`` `

i mustve missed that when i read the quran might give it a second look who knows

and if you see any fishes riding bicycles, let me know, ok

djiin (not djinn)

His Gift re zahra

`Lack of Originality is so damn apparent that I have requested some friends to create ripples by sending their beautiful and original thoughts to this ezine.`

but i wonder zahra will these thoughts see the light of day here what with the very questionable editorial policy in effect chowk is deluged with thousands of articles on a regular basis i find it hard to believe that alot of what actually makes it is the cream of the crop id love to have a look at chowks cutting room floor

Love in the Time of Kargil bina

`I believe in a God that is a fair judge, and I hope that people like you find favor with him`

oh my goodness no please bina read that aloud and see how patronising that sounds well intentioned though it may be people like me oh dear dont worry about people like me bina well be ok its people like you i worry about what will you do when you leave this world and realise that this is it ;-)

`not everyone has the intelligence or even the opportunity to be able to ``think`` about things in the way that you or I can - and I hope those people are not penalized for their limitations either.`

i was thinking more of the people who *do * have the intelligence and opportunity but refuse to use it or use it to come up with bogus conclusions simply to further their own ends and support their dogmas surely you know such people i certainly do and they annoy the hell out of me

djiin (not djinn)

ps check your mail

Love in the Time of Kargil bina

`I believe in a God that is a fair judge, and I hope that people like you find favor with him `

oh goodness no please read that aloud bina and try to fathom how patronising well intentioned though im sure it is that that sounds people like me oh goodness im just glad you said hope instead of pray please dont pray for me an exercise in futility even if god does exist dont worry about people like me bina well be ok i just worry what will happen to you when you leave this world and find out this is all there is ;-)

`As for a believer who swallows everything without thinking - well, I suppose technically they are following the rules but of course they are missing out on the intellectual and spiritual sides of the quest. Then again, not everyone has the intelligence or even the opportunity to be able to ``think`` about things in the way that you or I can - and I hope those people are not penalized for their limitations either.`

i was thinking more of the people who *do * have the intelligence and opportunity but refuse to use them surely you as i do know such people they sure irritate the hell out of me

djiin (not djinn)

ps check your mail

Love in the Time of Kargil politics and religion politics and religion ah well in for a penny

re bahamad

i see this getting nowhere you claim i am not sympathetic and i supose i cannot be inclined to diasgree but do not think i am singling out islam i feel the same way about christianity and from what i know of hinduism i feel the same way about it as well i do think though that i have been or tried to be logical and coherent we will probably end up arguing over sematics like what taking things out of context means all id like to say is that when people talk about taking things out of context as far as spiritual texts go they usually mean you have to consider the time in which they were written ie things were different back then which flies in the face of those who say the message is timeless and relevant to our modern world either you believe lock stock and barrel or you dont none of that revisionist stuff permit me finally the liberty of saying that your hints such as they were were not from the muslim perspective but a muslim perspective as im sure bina would tell you there is no one perspective or is there see what i mean i hope we can agree to disagree my friend

re bina

`Let me ask you: what is the source of virtue, if not God or a spiritual being/creator? or if there is no God? (I`m just curious to know what you think).`

curiosity killed the cat you know but i will indulge you as you have so kindly indulged me

as an humanist atheist i believe that god does not exist but this does not grant me free license to do as i please with no fear of consequences rather it places on me and all other humans whether they believe in god or not a duty to my fellow man firstly to live a life that does not in any way endanger or impinge upon his that is the bedrock of my morality which is based upon i suppose if youre looking for a reference john stuart mills treatise on liberty which basically argues that once my actions harm no one else they shold not be disallowed or interfered with by the state of course one can argue among other things the meaning of the word harm

but apart from not doing things that would harm i am also duty bound to do that which would help exactly what is debatable but in general i would say help end or at least partly relieve human suffering in all forms and ways the source of this virtue is humanity itself we must decide as a society or socieites common goods we must work to achieve eg ending hunger crime war abuse of women and children illiteracy celine dion and we must stop bothering with such unimportant inconsequential issues like what we wear and what we eat and who we have sex with

too often i hear so called religious people say things like we cannot end suffering it is gods will or i know it is unfair that children get aids but god knows best or he is suffering because of the sins of his father and such nonsense we are all responisble for each other and whether god exists or not we have a duty to help one another as best we can surely a loving caring god would want that more than adhering to dogmas and singing his praises all the time which to me makes god seem egotistical

`I don`t think God ever promised us a world in which there would be no evil - that is for the next world, if you`re a believer in life after death (if you`re not, whoops!).`

see thats just it i dont believe in a next world i think this is it heaven and hell all in one so we have to make do with what we have even if there is a god and an afterlife i cant see how he could argue with what i have said

`If we contend that there IS a god, then I don`t think I can agree with your supposition. If there is no God, then yes, it`s probably possible. But that wouldn`t make much sense would it... LOL.`

but surely you can agree with me if i say that god if he existed would prefer a humanist atheist who arrived to his (dis)beliefs by using his god given intellect to reason and ponder and reflect rather than the so called devout believer who blindly swallowed all that he was told without thinking for himself i say so called meaning of course not you from what i have read in your posts here you are obviously fair minded and intelligent not to mention a damned fine writer i loved his gift why you are a believer is beyond me but i wish you good luck in your self described lifelong task to unearth whatever it is you are looking for as for me i think i have unlike you and bono found what im looking for i see it every time i look into the eyes of another human being i believe in humanity in all its strengths and frailties i believe in lots wife who looked back ok before i get all sentimental and misty eyed here i shall endeavour to take my leave

a bientot

Love in the Time of Kargil re bina

you always seem to get to me before anyone else does

`I don`t think God thinks Christians and Jews are ``not just people``. `

nor do i but the verse in contention surely makes it seem that way doesnt it

`Seems like you have a bone to pick, my friend, you are seeing everything in a very negative light and your posts are pretty obviously indicating that you aren`t very open to instead trying to see things positively.`

you misunderstand me the point i am driving at which you seem to agree with is that even the seemigly simplest and unequivocal of scriptural texts can have a multitude of interpretations (thou shalt not kill to use the ten commandments you brought up yet not a single major religion officially denounces the death penalty because also an eye for an eye but then jesus said turn the other cheek and you see what i am getting at)

too many schisms too many sects too many versions of texts too many interpretations too many too many i have spent years trying to see things openly and be positive i have studied i have prayed i have reflected and i have come to the conclusion that religion is of no use to me and it beats me how it could be of any use to anyone who has bothered to even consider these things

perhaps youd like to tell me what it is in essence that has you (i assume) a devout and practising muslim

and would you agree that a person can live a virtuous and very moral life completely free of religion and even god and be no less in gods eyes than a devout believer if you can then id be happy to call this discussion quits

(I love Lauryn Hill, though, doesn`t that song kick ass?) :)

sure does

but check out macy gray the album macy gray on how life is she kicks even more ass than lauryn

re tqs

`I?m not saying that no one should interpret Quran. If you want to interpret Quran do your homework first. Put in the effort, time, energy that takes years and years (decades) of training, education, experience, and knowledge, wisdom, intellect, and scholarship. Once you have achieved that level, you can interpret it. When we have a problem in understanding Quran, we go to the scholars of Islam. In the 1400 years history of Islam, scholars are well known and well accepted throughout the Muslim world.`

silly me here i was thinking religion was for all and the religious texts were meant to be read and understood by all rich or poor simple minded or intellectual because we are all equal in gods eyes arent we not but i guess we all need phds in theology from the yale divinity school with post doctoral work done in the fields of islamic science and god alone knows what else and need to be old before we can read and understand the quran or the bible or whatever text you care to mention in early times the catholic church fought tooth and nail not to have the bible translated from latin to the language of the people lest they find out about the meek inheriting the earth and all that good stuff your reasoning sure echoes those times

re saaf go

`If by sending prophets and scriptures, god intended to confuse people, he (or is it she? has done it masterfully. If not, he/she has failed miserably.`

succinctly put

and a good note on which to end

Close Encounters of the Musician Kind re durdana

`dont get paranoid there is no conspiracy to ``harm`` your joylove randezvous of boylove!I am intrigued you find everything else on chowk trash EXCEPT the one you are sad to to see go away from front page!`

irony pl. ironies n. a manner of speaking or writing in which the meaning literally expressed is the opposite of the meaning intended and which aims at ridicule humor or sarcasm (new lexicon websters dictionary of the english language)

Love in the Time of Kargil re bina

not only did you find it imperative to respond but to feel the need to do it twice is quite flattering

`you CANNOT take anything in the Quran or Hadith WITHOUT qualification. That`s the whole beauty of the religion`

where you see beauty i see the basis for wars a gender divide animosity hatred the passages i quoted i did so not so much to prove a point as to show that you can use religion and religious texts to substantiate practically anything you want from slavery to patriarchy

to killing in the name of god

killing in the name of god just saying that line makes me want to retch

ill use just one example to illustrate and answer bilal (hello there) at the same time

quoting the whole of surah 5 51 only reinforces the sentiment of the fragment i quoted (binas comments notwithstanding) in fact it also seems to say that god thinks jews and christians are not just people now you will probably reinterpret the text for me again and make further revisions and qualifications but my point i hope is clear religion shouldnt have to be so complex so full of prohibitions not to wax platitudinous but i refer to the sentiments i expressed in the beginning of my first post it could all be so simple but youd rather make it hard as lauryn hill says now thats wisdom i can live by

re statesman

i have no desire to get into subintelligent mudslinging with you it would be like casting pearls before oh no id better not say the word lest you think im trying to corrupt some poor innocent bystanders

Close Encounters of the Musician Kind the race is on to banish the boylover from the front page

lets see if we cant do it with some utterly pointless banal vacuous tripe with a cringe worthy title to match

dont hold your breath waiting for eddie vedder to respond somehow i doubt very much that bombastic bullfrog reads chowk

and with alot of the rubbish being published here of late who can blame him

Love in the Time of Kargil when the major religions of the world allow women to become clerics stop telling me i have to be married to have sex tell me homosexuality is not a sin and stop insisting its their way or the highway (to hell) then maybe i might actually consider listening to what they have to say

i always thought it was about love and compassion and understanding for all not what you ate what you wore who you married how many times a day you prayed what you parroted in your prayers what direction you faced

can you really imagine god cares about all that stuff

i see too many people here cutting off their noses to spite their faces trying to justify the unjustifiable reason the unreasonable defend the glaringly indefensible reminds me of the african tale of the man who refused to lend his neighbor his knife to cut up a dead dog because it was against his religion but gladly offered to use his teeth

consider

1 there is no compulsion in religion surah 2 verse 256 doesnt that make theocracies unislamic as well as the whole point of this discussion useless

2 `men are a degree above women` 2 228 `men are in charge of women because allah has made one to excel the other good women are obedient those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to separate beds and whip them` 4 34

3 i am not a believer this is not my fault but allahs `allah sends whom he will astray and guides whom he will` 35 8 so it is hardly my fault that allah decided to lead me astray after all it is he who `has sealed the disbelievers hearing and their hearts and put a covering on their eyes` 1 7 in fact even though i read the quran it was allah himself who ensured i would not believe what i read because `we place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it and in their ears a deafness` 17 46

also `they who disbelieve and deny our revelations, such are rightful owners of the fire they will abide therein` 2 3 but if hes the one who has decided that I must be a disbeliever then why is he going to send me to hell for his decision

4 take not the jews and christians for your friends 5 51

id love views on the above points but unfortunately if youre a muslim you wont be able to answer me because 6 68 `when you meet those who meddle with our revelations withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic` 6 68

`thus we have appointed on to every prophet an adversary devils of humankind and djiin who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile if your lord willed they would not do so so leave them alone in their devising` 6 113