Dev - The Anatomy of A Communal Carnage
the article below gives some reason to pause. terrorist actions are hard to carry out without local support. ``Maulvi Sufiyan selected boys who were not poor or illiterate. He selected smart, educated Gujarati Muslims without criminal backgrounds`` . This maulvi has since vamoosed to Bangladesh which apparently has become a safehouse for such types.
--
Dahyaji Gobarji Vanzara, additional commissioner of police heading the crime branch in Ahmedabad, has been under the scanner ever since his team gunned down a teenaged college student from Mumbai in an `encounter` with an group of Lashkar-e-Tayiba terrorists last month.
Ishrat Jahan Raza was shot dead in the company of three Lashkar terrorists, including two Pakistanis. But her friends and family members insist she was not involved with terrorism. (The Lashkar itself has since claimed that Ishrat Jahan was a member of the organisation.)
So, was she really a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer? In an exclusive interview with Senior Editor Sheela Bhatt, Vanzara defends his boys.
1. What does this encounter killing of terrorists convey?
After the Godhra carnage and the subsequent riots terrorists of a variety of types and shapes are aiming at Gujarat. Gujarat has become the destination for terrorists.
2. Some critics believe that more than terrorism, it is fear of terrorism that is more prevalent here. The threat perception is politicised to an extent.
We are in a position to see what you are unable to see. People who think that the terrorism perceived by us is illusory are loose talkers, informal chatters. The people who are a threat to Gujarat have international links. What do the deaths of two Pakistanis prove?
It has some local links too. In our investigation of the Akshardham case also we proved that one terrorist cell was supported by four sub-cells. Most terrorist operations are supported by four sub-cells of finance, weapons, fidayeen [team on a death mission], and logistics. Each cell works separately and most times without mutual knowledge. All these cells can function only with the help of local people`s support.
When all these cells` efforts are coordinated, terrorist action becomes a reality.
The Akshardham case was successfully investigated and we have busted four sub-cells. After the riots, we have detected 12 such modules so far. We have arrested 83 persons, including three [Hindu] women under POTA. Those women were assisting Chhota Shakeel`s hired hitmen Ganesh Khunte and Mahendra Jadhav, who had come to Ahmedabad to kill BJP leaders Ashok Bhatt and Bharat Barot.
3. Many policemen who are well aware of such encounters argue off the record that Ishrat should have been saved. Some even argue that there is a difference between a criminal and a terrorist.
First of all, those people who believe we should have hit them on the lower parts of their body have no idea of operations of this type. Do you want to say that when Salim, one of the Pakistani terrorists, opened fire with an AK-56, he should have been hit only in the lower body? So that he can hit my men in the upper body?
All these arguments are okay while dealing with the masses.
Second, we had information about three people only. We were expecting three people in the car and not four. We had no idea that a woman was in the car when my boys intercepted them. When Salim jumped out and started firing on my policemen they retaliated.
The encounter went on for hardly 10 minutes and after the guns fell silent we found Ishrat in the car. She had been hit by the bullets.We just did not know she was in the car.
4. After this encounter, you have claimed success in your follow-up investigation. Can you share some information?
The Jammu and Kashmir police has identified the two Pakistanis. They knew about their infiltration into India and their movements. The Pune police has given us much more information than we expected. It has proved beyond doubt that Javed Khan visited Muscat for 10 days between March 29 and April 11. He used a passport issued in his original name Pranesh Kumar.
Our information is that the conspiracy was planned abroad. Javed Khan was listed as a criminal and a few cases were pending against him. We have reconstructed the movements of Ishrat after May 1. Javed Khan met Ishrat, her mother Shamima, and their neighbour Rasheed in Hotel Taloja in Kalyan.
Javed told Shamima that he need Ishrat for some `computer` work and agreed to pay her Rs 3,500 a month. He told Shamima that he was involved in some `do numberi` [illegal] work too and Ishrat will have to pose as his wife if needed.
In first week of June Ishrat and Javed went to Lucknow and stayed in Hotel Mezbaan. They changed their names to Ayesha and Abdul Rahim and stayed as husband and wife. All the hotel owners where Ishrat and Javed lived together have identified them. Salim, the Pakistani terrorist, stayed near Lucknow in Ibrahimpur. Here he asked his hosts Raju and Meraj to get him a sten-gun and pistol.
Since it was election time weapons were easily available. He had an AK-56 which he used to threaten us. Talk about purchase of weapons took place in Ishrat`s presence. She knew about the operation to kill Chief Minister Narendra Modi. Her e-mail ID was ishhateseverybody@hotmail.com I wonder, if she was not a criminal, why did she not keep her ID `ishloveseverybody`?
5. In your assessment, how many terrorist modules are operating in Gujarat after the communal riots?
We have arrested 16 to 17 Gujarati boys who went to Pakistan via Dhaka and took arms training. When they came back here, well-equipped with weapons, to disrupt Gujarat`s economy and kill political leaders, we arrested them. They were motivated by Mufti Sufiyan, maulvi of the Sunnis of Gujarat. When we investigated the Haren Pandya murder case we stumbled upon his anti-national activities. He fled the country. We believe he is in Dhaka. Sufiyan selected boys who were not poor or illiterate. He selected smart, educated Gujarati Muslims without criminal backgrounds.
The other thing we noted was that most of our POTA detainees who are involved in terrorist activities are from the Tableeghi Jamaat. Javed Khan`s in-laws are also from the Tableeghi Jamaat.
6. How is the situation now? What is the current threat perception?
We have already busted 12 modules of Pakistan-based terror groups Lashkar-e-Tayiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad in Gujarat. But I believe tempers are coming down. Muslims in Gujarat are moderate and they understand the situation better. But we have threats from abroad. Our investigations reveal that some groups in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Muscat and Kuwait are misguiding our people. In view of their activities the serious threat of terrorism remains.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 27, 2004 01:47 pm
there was this incident when the gujarat police came in for heavy criticism from the media for an ``encounter`` in which a muslim girl was killed. All of a sudden, all these folks have turned silent.the article below gives some reason to pause. terrorist actions are hard to carry out without local support. ``Maulvi Sufiyan selected boys who were not poor or illiterate. He selected smart, educated Gujarati Muslims without criminal backgrounds`` . This maulvi has since vamoosed to Bangladesh which apparently has become a safehouse for such types.
--
Dahyaji Gobarji Vanzara, additional commissioner of police heading the crime branch in Ahmedabad, has been under the scanner ever since his team gunned down a teenaged college student from Mumbai in an `encounter` with an group of Lashkar-e-Tayiba terrorists last month.
Ishrat Jahan Raza was shot dead in the company of three Lashkar terrorists, including two Pakistanis. But her friends and family members insist she was not involved with terrorism. (The Lashkar itself has since claimed that Ishrat Jahan was a member of the organisation.)
So, was she really a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer? In an exclusive interview with Senior Editor Sheela Bhatt, Vanzara defends his boys.
1. What does this encounter killing of terrorists convey?
After the Godhra carnage and the subsequent riots terrorists of a variety of types and shapes are aiming at Gujarat. Gujarat has become the destination for terrorists.
2. Some critics believe that more than terrorism, it is fear of terrorism that is more prevalent here. The threat perception is politicised to an extent.
We are in a position to see what you are unable to see. People who think that the terrorism perceived by us is illusory are loose talkers, informal chatters. The people who are a threat to Gujarat have international links. What do the deaths of two Pakistanis prove?
It has some local links too. In our investigation of the Akshardham case also we proved that one terrorist cell was supported by four sub-cells. Most terrorist operations are supported by four sub-cells of finance, weapons, fidayeen [team on a death mission], and logistics. Each cell works separately and most times without mutual knowledge. All these cells can function only with the help of local people`s support.
When all these cells` efforts are coordinated, terrorist action becomes a reality.
The Akshardham case was successfully investigated and we have busted four sub-cells. After the riots, we have detected 12 such modules so far. We have arrested 83 persons, including three [Hindu] women under POTA. Those women were assisting Chhota Shakeel`s hired hitmen Ganesh Khunte and Mahendra Jadhav, who had come to Ahmedabad to kill BJP leaders Ashok Bhatt and Bharat Barot.
3. Many policemen who are well aware of such encounters argue off the record that Ishrat should have been saved. Some even argue that there is a difference between a criminal and a terrorist.
First of all, those people who believe we should have hit them on the lower parts of their body have no idea of operations of this type. Do you want to say that when Salim, one of the Pakistani terrorists, opened fire with an AK-56, he should have been hit only in the lower body? So that he can hit my men in the upper body?
All these arguments are okay while dealing with the masses.
Second, we had information about three people only. We were expecting three people in the car and not four. We had no idea that a woman was in the car when my boys intercepted them. When Salim jumped out and started firing on my policemen they retaliated.
The encounter went on for hardly 10 minutes and after the guns fell silent we found Ishrat in the car. She had been hit by the bullets.We just did not know she was in the car.
4. After this encounter, you have claimed success in your follow-up investigation. Can you share some information?
The Jammu and Kashmir police has identified the two Pakistanis. They knew about their infiltration into India and their movements. The Pune police has given us much more information than we expected. It has proved beyond doubt that Javed Khan visited Muscat for 10 days between March 29 and April 11. He used a passport issued in his original name Pranesh Kumar.
Our information is that the conspiracy was planned abroad. Javed Khan was listed as a criminal and a few cases were pending against him. We have reconstructed the movements of Ishrat after May 1. Javed Khan met Ishrat, her mother Shamima, and their neighbour Rasheed in Hotel Taloja in Kalyan.
Javed told Shamima that he need Ishrat for some `computer` work and agreed to pay her Rs 3,500 a month. He told Shamima that he was involved in some `do numberi` [illegal] work too and Ishrat will have to pose as his wife if needed.
In first week of June Ishrat and Javed went to Lucknow and stayed in Hotel Mezbaan. They changed their names to Ayesha and Abdul Rahim and stayed as husband and wife. All the hotel owners where Ishrat and Javed lived together have identified them. Salim, the Pakistani terrorist, stayed near Lucknow in Ibrahimpur. Here he asked his hosts Raju and Meraj to get him a sten-gun and pistol.
Since it was election time weapons were easily available. He had an AK-56 which he used to threaten us. Talk about purchase of weapons took place in Ishrat`s presence. She knew about the operation to kill Chief Minister Narendra Modi. Her e-mail ID was ishhateseverybody@hotmail.com I wonder, if she was not a criminal, why did she not keep her ID `ishloveseverybody`?
5. In your assessment, how many terrorist modules are operating in Gujarat after the communal riots?
We have arrested 16 to 17 Gujarati boys who went to Pakistan via Dhaka and took arms training. When they came back here, well-equipped with weapons, to disrupt Gujarat`s economy and kill political leaders, we arrested them. They were motivated by Mufti Sufiyan, maulvi of the Sunnis of Gujarat. When we investigated the Haren Pandya murder case we stumbled upon his anti-national activities. He fled the country. We believe he is in Dhaka. Sufiyan selected boys who were not poor or illiterate. He selected smart, educated Gujarati Muslims without criminal backgrounds.
The other thing we noted was that most of our POTA detainees who are involved in terrorist activities are from the Tableeghi Jamaat. Javed Khan`s in-laws are also from the Tableeghi Jamaat.
6. How is the situation now? What is the current threat perception?
We have already busted 12 modules of Pakistan-based terror groups Lashkar-e-Tayiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad in Gujarat. But I believe tempers are coming down. Muslims in Gujarat are moderate and they understand the situation better. But we have threats from abroad. Our investigations reveal that some groups in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Muscat and Kuwait are misguiding our people. In view of their activities the serious threat of terrorism remains.
Army Action in Wana and Our Responsibility
Is Pakistan unravelling?
Lt. Col (retd) Anil Athale
July 26, 2004
In the wake of the enquiry commission report on the events of 9/11, there is a spate of articles in the American media detailing the major role played by Pakistan in that catalytic event. At the popular level in America, as shown in various Hollywood movies, Pakistanis are often depicted as terrorists along with the Arabs.
On a recent visit to the US one was struck by the general air of pessimism prevailing amongst American think tanks about the future of Pakistan. Some of these experts are well known for their soft corner for that country, therefore it was all the more surprising. Earlier that honour was reserved for India; predictions of its break-up after Nehru or after the BJP came to power were routine. But similar sentiments being expressed about Pakistan was indeed a new experience.
The reasons for the Pakistani crisis according to them were:
The rift within the Pakistan army between the rank and file and officers; between senior officers and junior officers (the post Zia period and influenced by the Islamist world view versus the old guard that is more pro-American and moderate); and within the officer class as a whole between the Islamists and the moderates.
Unrest in Pakistani civil society due to food shortages and the clear perception that the army was hoodwinking the people under the guide of the threat from India.
Disenchantment with the mullahs who are now increasingly seen as the biggest threat to Islam.
Regional differences between the provinces where Sindh and Baluchistan feel discriminated against in matters of allocation of financial resources.
Effects of the anti-tribal operations in the Waziristan area.
Effects of the Indian general election where the Pakistani people, especially the poor, saw how democracy works. In Pakistan they are powerless under army rule. This feeling of disaffection has also spread to the middle class.
The two pillars on which the ruling mullah-military alliance stood -- the threat from India and the danger to Islam -- both stand discredited and weakened, if not altogether demolished. The hype and mass coverage to the recently concluded cricket series did much to blunt the anti-India edge. Paradoxically the wide media coverage given to the frequent missile tests conducted by Pakistan have further convinced the vast majority of Pakistanis that India no longer poses a threat to them.
Singly, none of these factors could pose a threat of the dissolution of Pakistan. But the fact that these multiple crisis are occurring simultaneously is the real danger.
The US places a lot of faith in Musharraf. They feel he is their best bet to keep Pakistan together and away from turning a terrorist. But the Americans are clearly worried about the very survival of Musharraf in case of a major catch like Mullah Omar or Osama bin Laden as a result of the ongoing military operations in the Pakistan/Afghanistan border areas.
The Americans are concerned that the collapse of Pakistan may remove the vital pillar of their Afghan and anti-terror policy and are searching for answers. But it also appears that they may well be preparing for the inevitable if that becomes unavoidable.
Given the proximity of the Americans to the Pakistani establishment, their views have to be taken seriously.
HOW WILL IT UNRAVEL?
Two possible scenarios are:
Revolt in the periphery
The provinces of Sindh, Baluchistan, the Northern Areas and Pakistan occupied Kashmir may well revolt against Punjabi domination. The North West Frontier Province is already part of Afghanistan all except in name, so it is likely to continue in the same way.
It is accepted that the Pakistani army is capable and ruthless enough to crush this revolt with great brutality. But if all the periphery revolts at the same time then its resources are not adequate. At most the Pakistan army can deal with one revolt at a time, not more than that.
In this case while there would be no direct military threat to India, we may well be saddled with a huge refugee influx, especially from Sindh and PoK.
In addition, jihadi elements may well try to create similar disturbances in India by engineering Godhra-type incidents. The Amarnath Yatra may well be the first target.
As the central authority would be weak in this situation, jihadis may well be totally out of control with grave threat of increased terrorism in India that would be random and directed at creating communal animosities in India. This would be helped by the local sympathisers of jihadis who have created virtually autonomous enclaves in major urban centres of India.
Taliban-like hardliners take over the Pakistan army and the State
The second possible scenario is that a hardline faction of the army consisting of younger elements led by someone like Lieutenant General Mohammad Aziz with help of the Jamaat-e-Islami take over the army. It may not mean any rift within the army as the Pakistan army has a tradition of conducting bloodless coups.
What may well happen is the systematic purge of army moderates and elimination of opposing civilians. The revolt could be bloody if the moderate army leadership finds support amongst the rank and file and those units stand by and fight.
It is now clear that the two assassination attempts against Musharraf were an inside job signifying that there is a sizeable pro-fundamentalist faction within the army. But if the extremists are stronger when faced with the prospect of certain defeat, it is unlikely that any soldier would hitch his future with the moderates.
There may well be resistance in civil society. In case this scenario is to materialise since the jihadi forces would be fully engaged in consolidating their hold over Pakistan, there would be very little attempt to foment trouble in India. The flow of refugees is, however, likely to be even greater.
Since a Taliban-like takeover of Pakistan is certain to invite economic sanctions, Pakistan would face economic collapse as all aid would dry up. A Taliban-like regime in Pakistan would have long term repercussions on India in that the hardline Islamists within India would get greater support. A sort of mirror image of what happened to Pakistan when the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
The Taliban-like revolt would have grave repercussions on the West`s war on terrorism in Afghanistan and a likely military intervention by the West may take place.
India cannot keep aloof from these events. In this scenario the use of Pakistani nuclear weapons against India -- either authorised or by rogue elements -- is very likely.
How far the Americans have seized control of Pakistani nukes is not known at this point in time. A web site sometime ago claimed that the jihadis have control over two/three nuclear-tipped missiles.
The basic cause for unravelling of Pakistan was the very un-naturalness of the concept of Pakistan. If religion alone could be basis of nationalism then what about the Hindus and Christians in Pakistan? Are they also a separate nation?
THE CONTRARY VIEW
A long-term context and view of Islam shows that Islamic separatism is still a potent force in the subcontinent. The spread of political Islam was halted on the banks of Narmada in the 18th century. But in the North of the subcontinent there has been no rollback of Islamic influence like in Europe. The separation of Bangladesh could well be explained as having taken place due to geographical factors. The current Islamisation of Bangladesh shows that clearly. Pakistan could well be seen as an extension of the Middle East into the Indian subcontinent. Wherever in a local majority -- as in Kashmir -- the Muslims yearn for a separate state or merger with an existing Islamic entity.
The Pakistani achievement of survival between 1947 and 1954 (before the beginning of Western aid) should not be underestimated. A huge (in proportion of its overall population) inflow of refugees, total absence of any infrastructure of government and lack of natural resources and industry did not deter Pakistan from not only surviving but thriving and even invading parts of India like Kashmir.
The `hate India` cement is too strong and the rulers will use it when faced with difficulty and label all revolts on the periphery as `anti-Islam` and crush them ruthlessly.
The very basis of Pakistan is anti-democracy. It was created since the Muslims did not accept living under a Hindu majority. The creation of Pakistan on that basis ensured that democracy remained a factor to be suppressed with the use of Sharia and feudalism. Islam has been used by the Pakistani elite for governance and keeping India destabilised. The Pakistan army would not break up or revolt, it would merely change its role from `modernising` to enforcing the Sharia.
A revolt by the poor and dispossessed in Pakistan is unlikely as the people of the subcontinent have a virtually unlimited capacity to suffer. The history of Islam in the subcontinent shows that an Aurangzeb invariably succeeds against a liberal Dara Shikoh. This has been proved time and again.
What is likely to happen in Pakistan is a series of coups as a letting off steam mechanism for its society. Witness the exactly identical rhetoric against corruption that has been used by all military coup leaders since Ayub Khan and swallowed by the Pakistan public.
One of the coups could well usher in an Islamist and Taliban-like corps commander and lead to the Talibanisation of Pakistan. As long as the minimum level of order prevails and the common man can survive, there is no chance of unravelling of Pakistan.
As against the above argument, some reports suggest the anarchy that prevails in Karachi and even Lahore is such that ordinary thievery is passé. In its place are crimes like car snatching. There have been reports of Pakistan army officers defying the orders to shoot at civilians in tribal areas.
Musharraf is a prisoner in his palace and does not dare move out. The minimum level of order has already collapsed in Pakistan and the use of the army to restore order would bring it in direct confrontation with the people. Would it then act against the people or the rulers?
CONCLUSIONS
First and foremost, the Indian government, media and the people must give up the woolly notion of attributing all this to the machinations of the ISI. It is time we realised the truth -- that the ISI is manned by Pakistan army personnel on deputation and operates under the firm control of the Pakistan army chief. For all intents and purposes, it is part and parcel of the Pakistan army.
Prime Minister Jamali has recently been replaced. The scenario of coups and counter coups seem to be in place.
India has to watch out for:
The advent of an Islamist leader at the helm of affairs.
If there is a peaceful coup then the terrorists would be unleashed against India as the best bet for a new ruler to establish himself.
If there is a Taliban-like takeover then its local sympathisers would create trouble and there is a greater danger of pre-emptive use of nukes by Pakistan as the Taliban mindset is inherently illogical and unstable.
Musharraf`s constant blowing hot and cold is a symptom of the instability there. At the minimum, India must expect and deal with the continuing campaign of terror against us.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 26, 2004 11:44 pm
here is an article from an indian ex-military analystIs Pakistan unravelling?
Lt. Col (retd) Anil Athale
July 26, 2004
In the wake of the enquiry commission report on the events of 9/11, there is a spate of articles in the American media detailing the major role played by Pakistan in that catalytic event. At the popular level in America, as shown in various Hollywood movies, Pakistanis are often depicted as terrorists along with the Arabs.
On a recent visit to the US one was struck by the general air of pessimism prevailing amongst American think tanks about the future of Pakistan. Some of these experts are well known for their soft corner for that country, therefore it was all the more surprising. Earlier that honour was reserved for India; predictions of its break-up after Nehru or after the BJP came to power were routine. But similar sentiments being expressed about Pakistan was indeed a new experience.
The reasons for the Pakistani crisis according to them were:
The rift within the Pakistan army between the rank and file and officers; between senior officers and junior officers (the post Zia period and influenced by the Islamist world view versus the old guard that is more pro-American and moderate); and within the officer class as a whole between the Islamists and the moderates.
Unrest in Pakistani civil society due to food shortages and the clear perception that the army was hoodwinking the people under the guide of the threat from India.
Disenchantment with the mullahs who are now increasingly seen as the biggest threat to Islam.
Regional differences between the provinces where Sindh and Baluchistan feel discriminated against in matters of allocation of financial resources.
Effects of the anti-tribal operations in the Waziristan area.
Effects of the Indian general election where the Pakistani people, especially the poor, saw how democracy works. In Pakistan they are powerless under army rule. This feeling of disaffection has also spread to the middle class.
The two pillars on which the ruling mullah-military alliance stood -- the threat from India and the danger to Islam -- both stand discredited and weakened, if not altogether demolished. The hype and mass coverage to the recently concluded cricket series did much to blunt the anti-India edge. Paradoxically the wide media coverage given to the frequent missile tests conducted by Pakistan have further convinced the vast majority of Pakistanis that India no longer poses a threat to them.
Singly, none of these factors could pose a threat of the dissolution of Pakistan. But the fact that these multiple crisis are occurring simultaneously is the real danger.
The US places a lot of faith in Musharraf. They feel he is their best bet to keep Pakistan together and away from turning a terrorist. But the Americans are clearly worried about the very survival of Musharraf in case of a major catch like Mullah Omar or Osama bin Laden as a result of the ongoing military operations in the Pakistan/Afghanistan border areas.
The Americans are concerned that the collapse of Pakistan may remove the vital pillar of their Afghan and anti-terror policy and are searching for answers. But it also appears that they may well be preparing for the inevitable if that becomes unavoidable.
Given the proximity of the Americans to the Pakistani establishment, their views have to be taken seriously.
HOW WILL IT UNRAVEL?
Two possible scenarios are:
Revolt in the periphery
The provinces of Sindh, Baluchistan, the Northern Areas and Pakistan occupied Kashmir may well revolt against Punjabi domination. The North West Frontier Province is already part of Afghanistan all except in name, so it is likely to continue in the same way.
It is accepted that the Pakistani army is capable and ruthless enough to crush this revolt with great brutality. But if all the periphery revolts at the same time then its resources are not adequate. At most the Pakistan army can deal with one revolt at a time, not more than that.
In this case while there would be no direct military threat to India, we may well be saddled with a huge refugee influx, especially from Sindh and PoK.
In addition, jihadi elements may well try to create similar disturbances in India by engineering Godhra-type incidents. The Amarnath Yatra may well be the first target.
As the central authority would be weak in this situation, jihadis may well be totally out of control with grave threat of increased terrorism in India that would be random and directed at creating communal animosities in India. This would be helped by the local sympathisers of jihadis who have created virtually autonomous enclaves in major urban centres of India.
Taliban-like hardliners take over the Pakistan army and the State
The second possible scenario is that a hardline faction of the army consisting of younger elements led by someone like Lieutenant General Mohammad Aziz with help of the Jamaat-e-Islami take over the army. It may not mean any rift within the army as the Pakistan army has a tradition of conducting bloodless coups.
What may well happen is the systematic purge of army moderates and elimination of opposing civilians. The revolt could be bloody if the moderate army leadership finds support amongst the rank and file and those units stand by and fight.
It is now clear that the two assassination attempts against Musharraf were an inside job signifying that there is a sizeable pro-fundamentalist faction within the army. But if the extremists are stronger when faced with the prospect of certain defeat, it is unlikely that any soldier would hitch his future with the moderates.
There may well be resistance in civil society. In case this scenario is to materialise since the jihadi forces would be fully engaged in consolidating their hold over Pakistan, there would be very little attempt to foment trouble in India. The flow of refugees is, however, likely to be even greater.
Since a Taliban-like takeover of Pakistan is certain to invite economic sanctions, Pakistan would face economic collapse as all aid would dry up. A Taliban-like regime in Pakistan would have long term repercussions on India in that the hardline Islamists within India would get greater support. A sort of mirror image of what happened to Pakistan when the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
The Taliban-like revolt would have grave repercussions on the West`s war on terrorism in Afghanistan and a likely military intervention by the West may take place.
India cannot keep aloof from these events. In this scenario the use of Pakistani nuclear weapons against India -- either authorised or by rogue elements -- is very likely.
How far the Americans have seized control of Pakistani nukes is not known at this point in time. A web site sometime ago claimed that the jihadis have control over two/three nuclear-tipped missiles.
The basic cause for unravelling of Pakistan was the very un-naturalness of the concept of Pakistan. If religion alone could be basis of nationalism then what about the Hindus and Christians in Pakistan? Are they also a separate nation?
THE CONTRARY VIEW
A long-term context and view of Islam shows that Islamic separatism is still a potent force in the subcontinent. The spread of political Islam was halted on the banks of Narmada in the 18th century. But in the North of the subcontinent there has been no rollback of Islamic influence like in Europe. The separation of Bangladesh could well be explained as having taken place due to geographical factors. The current Islamisation of Bangladesh shows that clearly. Pakistan could well be seen as an extension of the Middle East into the Indian subcontinent. Wherever in a local majority -- as in Kashmir -- the Muslims yearn for a separate state or merger with an existing Islamic entity.
The Pakistani achievement of survival between 1947 and 1954 (before the beginning of Western aid) should not be underestimated. A huge (in proportion of its overall population) inflow of refugees, total absence of any infrastructure of government and lack of natural resources and industry did not deter Pakistan from not only surviving but thriving and even invading parts of India like Kashmir.
The `hate India` cement is too strong and the rulers will use it when faced with difficulty and label all revolts on the periphery as `anti-Islam` and crush them ruthlessly.
The very basis of Pakistan is anti-democracy. It was created since the Muslims did not accept living under a Hindu majority. The creation of Pakistan on that basis ensured that democracy remained a factor to be suppressed with the use of Sharia and feudalism. Islam has been used by the Pakistani elite for governance and keeping India destabilised. The Pakistan army would not break up or revolt, it would merely change its role from `modernising` to enforcing the Sharia.
A revolt by the poor and dispossessed in Pakistan is unlikely as the people of the subcontinent have a virtually unlimited capacity to suffer. The history of Islam in the subcontinent shows that an Aurangzeb invariably succeeds against a liberal Dara Shikoh. This has been proved time and again.
What is likely to happen in Pakistan is a series of coups as a letting off steam mechanism for its society. Witness the exactly identical rhetoric against corruption that has been used by all military coup leaders since Ayub Khan and swallowed by the Pakistan public.
One of the coups could well usher in an Islamist and Taliban-like corps commander and lead to the Talibanisation of Pakistan. As long as the minimum level of order prevails and the common man can survive, there is no chance of unravelling of Pakistan.
As against the above argument, some reports suggest the anarchy that prevails in Karachi and even Lahore is such that ordinary thievery is passé. In its place are crimes like car snatching. There have been reports of Pakistan army officers defying the orders to shoot at civilians in tribal areas.
Musharraf is a prisoner in his palace and does not dare move out. The minimum level of order has already collapsed in Pakistan and the use of the army to restore order would bring it in direct confrontation with the people. Would it then act against the people or the rulers?
CONCLUSIONS
First and foremost, the Indian government, media and the people must give up the woolly notion of attributing all this to the machinations of the ISI. It is time we realised the truth -- that the ISI is manned by Pakistan army personnel on deputation and operates under the firm control of the Pakistan army chief. For all intents and purposes, it is part and parcel of the Pakistan army.
Prime Minister Jamali has recently been replaced. The scenario of coups and counter coups seem to be in place.
India has to watch out for:
The advent of an Islamist leader at the helm of affairs.
If there is a peaceful coup then the terrorists would be unleashed against India as the best bet for a new ruler to establish himself.
If there is a Taliban-like takeover then its local sympathisers would create trouble and there is a greater danger of pre-emptive use of nukes by Pakistan as the Taliban mindset is inherently illogical and unstable.
Musharraf`s constant blowing hot and cold is a symptom of the instability there. At the minimum, India must expect and deal with the continuing campaign of terror against us.
The Door To The Barracks
--
This is not true, all state allocations are proportional to the revenue generated. That is why the poor states have a per capita income of about two third the rich states. The central expenditure on defense, space etc. too is proportional. The army has quotas for regional recruitment. So we have proportional representation in the army too.
--
If this is so, then why all the hue and cry re Punjab. Is it because it has disproportioanately most military assets? One exercise might be interesting. If the Generals play such a big role and if the military is truly representative of all segments, does it hold for the upper ranks also?
--
No! there is only one language on the currency urdu. Regional identities are discouraged.
--
This is a mistake and also one commited by Sri Lanka (which was way ahead of most countries in Asia in the 1950s). Singapore is a small citystate but they have found an overt strategy of being multiethnic in everything to be of great value to social cohesion. Switzerland is another example. Of course one language can play a predominant role (it is English in Singapore as it is in India, with Hindi running second). Similarly small gestures like having all the main languages on train station name posts are implemented and having a choice of languages as second language is supported. In India all the languages are represented in the currency; this was a masterstroke. The fact is that people have their regional and linguistic identities. One cannot be idealistic and say that religion (islam) or religious philosophy (hinduism) will be the only binding force. In India, even Hindi (equivalent of Urdu) could not be imposed in many regions. As it turned out, the exposure to English has proved very valuable in the current context.
A multiethnic state like Yugoslavia was held together by communist ideology. Once that went, everything splintered. Without Saddam, and now the USA, Iraq would also go in that direction. Islam seems to be an all-encompassing ideology, like communism. By not paying due regards to regional identities, the state is not frittering away cultural resources. There has to be a balance between pan-regional and regional identities. Languages and cultures have developed over centuries. It is foolish to ignore all that and kill that within one or two generations.
--
Pakistani’s attach a lot of importance to being not Indian. What you are suggesting is that Pakistan becomes an image of India. I don’t think that would be acceptable to Pakistanis.
--
I think having one language and emphasizing religion is perfectly possible in the case of Bangladesh. It is highly possible for Bangladesh to enshrine Islam in their constitution far more succesfully than Pakistan could (even though here, they do have some non-muslims, what is left at any rate and so this step would be ill-advised). However I think that Pakistan is more diverse than Bangladesh; this is why one cannot ignore regional culture and hope religion will be a unifying force.
Frankly India is what it is as a response to nation building attempts in a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic and multi-religious setup. Pakistan is also multi-ethnic and multi-linguistic and so it would make sense to try what has worked and avoid what did not. Similarly India should also learn from other countries (as it has in the context of economic policies in china); this is a slow process but no one argues about this anymore. The Southeast asian nations are very pragmatic.. they have to be accomodating to China increasingly for obvious reasons. I dont think Nation states are static.. their composition and identities are ever-changing.
Pakistan has really no choice but to be indianized to some extent. The Indian market vastly dwarfs the Pakistan market. The best that Pakistan offers (entertainers, sportstars, products) find a ready market in India and these producers will modify their offerings to suit the marketplace (e.g., using more hindi words in songs etc.). This is common sense. Wasn`t it some japanese or korean cellphone maker that made a customized feature for the daily prayers for muslims? So this is what globalization is about. To be flexible and accomodate customer tastes. In so doing, you change attitudes and introduce the same products to the local marketplace as well.
Trying to forcefeed outdated concepts like Islam into the nervous system of a modern nation is a recipe for disaster. Why introduce constraints that reduce efficiency and create complications? That it seems to work in some countries like Saudi Arabia is illusory (oil wealth, enormous oppression). Keep religion in its place as a personal matter between each citizen and his God. Honestly I dont see any other way.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 25, 2004 05:07 pm
faruk #66--
This is not true, all state allocations are proportional to the revenue generated. That is why the poor states have a per capita income of about two third the rich states. The central expenditure on defense, space etc. too is proportional. The army has quotas for regional recruitment. So we have proportional representation in the army too.
--
If this is so, then why all the hue and cry re Punjab. Is it because it has disproportioanately most military assets? One exercise might be interesting. If the Generals play such a big role and if the military is truly representative of all segments, does it hold for the upper ranks also?
--
No! there is only one language on the currency urdu. Regional identities are discouraged.
--
This is a mistake and also one commited by Sri Lanka (which was way ahead of most countries in Asia in the 1950s). Singapore is a small citystate but they have found an overt strategy of being multiethnic in everything to be of great value to social cohesion. Switzerland is another example. Of course one language can play a predominant role (it is English in Singapore as it is in India, with Hindi running second). Similarly small gestures like having all the main languages on train station name posts are implemented and having a choice of languages as second language is supported. In India all the languages are represented in the currency; this was a masterstroke. The fact is that people have their regional and linguistic identities. One cannot be idealistic and say that religion (islam) or religious philosophy (hinduism) will be the only binding force. In India, even Hindi (equivalent of Urdu) could not be imposed in many regions. As it turned out, the exposure to English has proved very valuable in the current context.
A multiethnic state like Yugoslavia was held together by communist ideology. Once that went, everything splintered. Without Saddam, and now the USA, Iraq would also go in that direction. Islam seems to be an all-encompassing ideology, like communism. By not paying due regards to regional identities, the state is not frittering away cultural resources. There has to be a balance between pan-regional and regional identities. Languages and cultures have developed over centuries. It is foolish to ignore all that and kill that within one or two generations.
--
Pakistani’s attach a lot of importance to being not Indian. What you are suggesting is that Pakistan becomes an image of India. I don’t think that would be acceptable to Pakistanis.
--
I think having one language and emphasizing religion is perfectly possible in the case of Bangladesh. It is highly possible for Bangladesh to enshrine Islam in their constitution far more succesfully than Pakistan could (even though here, they do have some non-muslims, what is left at any rate and so this step would be ill-advised). However I think that Pakistan is more diverse than Bangladesh; this is why one cannot ignore regional culture and hope religion will be a unifying force.
Frankly India is what it is as a response to nation building attempts in a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic and multi-religious setup. Pakistan is also multi-ethnic and multi-linguistic and so it would make sense to try what has worked and avoid what did not. Similarly India should also learn from other countries (as it has in the context of economic policies in china); this is a slow process but no one argues about this anymore. The Southeast asian nations are very pragmatic.. they have to be accomodating to China increasingly for obvious reasons. I dont think Nation states are static.. their composition and identities are ever-changing.
Pakistan has really no choice but to be indianized to some extent. The Indian market vastly dwarfs the Pakistan market. The best that Pakistan offers (entertainers, sportstars, products) find a ready market in India and these producers will modify their offerings to suit the marketplace (e.g., using more hindi words in songs etc.). This is common sense. Wasn`t it some japanese or korean cellphone maker that made a customized feature for the daily prayers for muslims? So this is what globalization is about. To be flexible and accomodate customer tastes. In so doing, you change attitudes and introduce the same products to the local marketplace as well.
Trying to forcefeed outdated concepts like Islam into the nervous system of a modern nation is a recipe for disaster. Why introduce constraints that reduce efficiency and create complications? That it seems to work in some countries like Saudi Arabia is illusory (oil wealth, enormous oppression). Keep religion in its place as a personal matter between each citizen and his God. Honestly I dont see any other way.
The Door To The Barracks
I have found Urstruly`s and Romair`s pieces to be quite informative and at the same time, one cannot help being pessimistic given the situation.
I agree that there is probably a tacit understanding among all the power-brokers who are probably related to each other and have all kinds of complex connections. Hell, I`d be cheering too if I lived in a cantonment and my bread and butter depended on the military.
The point is that this is a seemingly stable system and it is pretty hard to rock the boat.
In India, the civil service bureaucrats are the most powerful (much more so than the military) and they take orders from the politicians. The system is such they are often posted to regions other than their home state. So this kind of cross fertilisation should have good effects (instead of inbreeding). So the senior level bureaucrats in public sector services are multiregional. While there was this feeling of Punjabi/Madrasi etc.. earlier this is not such a big thing any more , I gather. So there is this true indian identity which transcends region. Now the bimaru states suck up a lot in resources but somehow the equation has been worked out so that it is not intolerable for the performing states. And there is no chance of such an organized thuggery like the military seems to be in pakistan, running chemical plants!
So there are clearly challenges which may become acute but in India they seem to come up with some patchwork solution (split a state, cobble a treaty). All this wont be possible without democracy and judiciary and respect for constitution. Also the increasing dominance of the private sector has made them important power players in their own right. They are global and are sensitive to those constraints; they do a good job of conveying their concerns to the politicians (the new AP minister prematurely announced that some huge plant was going to be built in his state. not too sure if the Reliance boss was too happy with this). Of late NGOs and other social movements of a non-political nature are also a major force in looking at issues from a non-partisan view. Basically democracy helps more participation in the system, even of nonpolitical nature.
Responding to Faruk #58
Since Pakistan`s identity is multiregional, it should reflect that in the national symbols. Does the national currency display all the languages/region? Why not make all the major languages official and promote them? Emphasize the unity in diversity idea. Try to get the definition of who a muslim is out of the constitution (e.g., branding ahmedis as non-muslims); make it more flexible. Since there will be major trade with India in the future it makes sense to get acquainted with Indian languages and scripts. So while it is true that religion was the reason that the nation was formed in the first place, it doesnt need to have that role now. bottomline is that there is much Pakistan has to learn from India. So my own view is that increased engagement with India is a precondition for reform in the pakistani system; it may not be enough as there are important internal factors but it could be a help. As long as the kashmir issue festers, the longer things stay the way they are.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 25, 2004 07:38 am
I have found Urstruly`s and Romair`s pieces to be quite informative and at the same time, one cannot help being pessimistic given the situation.
I agree that there is probably a tacit understanding among all the power-brokers who are probably related to each other and have all kinds of complex connections. Hell, I`d be cheering too if I lived in a cantonment and my bread and butter depended on the military.
The point is that this is a seemingly stable system and it is pretty hard to rock the boat.
In India, the civil service bureaucrats are the most powerful (much more so than the military) and they take orders from the politicians. The system is such they are often posted to regions other than their home state. So this kind of cross fertilisation should have good effects (instead of inbreeding). So the senior level bureaucrats in public sector services are multiregional. While there was this feeling of Punjabi/Madrasi etc.. earlier this is not such a big thing any more , I gather. So there is this true indian identity which transcends region. Now the bimaru states suck up a lot in resources but somehow the equation has been worked out so that it is not intolerable for the performing states. And there is no chance of such an organized thuggery like the military seems to be in pakistan, running chemical plants!
So there are clearly challenges which may become acute but in India they seem to come up with some patchwork solution (split a state, cobble a treaty). All this wont be possible without democracy and judiciary and respect for constitution. Also the increasing dominance of the private sector has made them important power players in their own right. They are global and are sensitive to those constraints; they do a good job of conveying their concerns to the politicians (the new AP minister prematurely announced that some huge plant was going to be built in his state. not too sure if the Reliance boss was too happy with this). Of late NGOs and other social movements of a non-political nature are also a major force in looking at issues from a non-partisan view. Basically democracy helps more participation in the system, even of nonpolitical nature.
Responding to Faruk #58
Since Pakistan`s identity is multiregional, it should reflect that in the national symbols. Does the national currency display all the languages/region? Why not make all the major languages official and promote them? Emphasize the unity in diversity idea. Try to get the definition of who a muslim is out of the constitution (e.g., branding ahmedis as non-muslims); make it more flexible. Since there will be major trade with India in the future it makes sense to get acquainted with Indian languages and scripts. So while it is true that religion was the reason that the nation was formed in the first place, it doesnt need to have that role now. bottomline is that there is much Pakistan has to learn from India. So my own view is that increased engagement with India is a precondition for reform in the pakistani system; it may not be enough as there are important internal factors but it could be a help. As long as the kashmir issue festers, the longer things stay the way they are.
Dev - The Anatomy of A Communal Carnage
Santana Dharma tradition has active tolerance for all the sects. For a millenium muslims lived in hindu dominated villages peacefully.. reason: it was just one more sect/caste and were perceived as such (source: famous anthropologist MN Srinivas). How have so many varied sects in India got along despite considerable divergence in practices and beliefs.
So it is VERY accurate to say that eastern philosophies like Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism are inherently more open and tolerant than Abrahamic religions. Our dharma is constantly evolving as you and I see it fit to adjust according to the modern times. Anyone who does so (even nominal muslims or christians or atheists) and not stuck up on some book is a follower of sanatana dharma of sorts. When I hear Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sing his devotional songs, I really believe he is more Indian Hindu than Arab Muslim.
Indian tradition does not have too much more to learn from western secular ideals. We can teach them a thing or two about real secularism (which is much more than a denial of religious values but an active acceptance of all forms of worship). After all ours is the longest continuous living civilization in the world. The fact is that the Indian subcontinent has been screwed over the past few centuries and is slowly healing from those deep wounds.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 24, 2004 09:42 pm
dost-mittar:Santana Dharma tradition has active tolerance for all the sects. For a millenium muslims lived in hindu dominated villages peacefully.. reason: it was just one more sect/caste and were perceived as such (source: famous anthropologist MN Srinivas). How have so many varied sects in India got along despite considerable divergence in practices and beliefs.
So it is VERY accurate to say that eastern philosophies like Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism are inherently more open and tolerant than Abrahamic religions. Our dharma is constantly evolving as you and I see it fit to adjust according to the modern times. Anyone who does so (even nominal muslims or christians or atheists) and not stuck up on some book is a follower of sanatana dharma of sorts. When I hear Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan sing his devotional songs, I really believe he is more Indian Hindu than Arab Muslim.
Indian tradition does not have too much more to learn from western secular ideals. We can teach them a thing or two about real secularism (which is much more than a denial of religious values but an active acceptance of all forms of worship). After all ours is the longest continuous living civilization in the world. The fact is that the Indian subcontinent has been screwed over the past few centuries and is slowly healing from those deep wounds.
The Company Bahadar
One can distinguish between the impact and intentions of british rule as a whole vs. the actions of specific individuals who were indo-philic. They did recognize scientific talent in the natives (!) and nurtured that on occasion (even in the 19th century). The famous collaboration between the world famous mathematician Hardy and the self-taught Ramanujam is yet another example (besides CV Raman and the Boses). By the mid 20th century Indians were well represented in academia and certainly in the judicial system.
The British have a very positive image in certain ex-colonies, such as Singapore. Given a choice between being ruled by Japanese, Portuguese and others, the British were a more civilized lot.
I wasnt aware that the IITs and IISc date back to the British Raj. I thought these were conceived in the 1950s, courtesy Nehru ?
Posted by
warpster
Jul 24, 2004 01:22 pm
Nice historical review. One cannot have a high regard for the Mughals; they were coasting on past accomplishments and seemed to lack curiosity and engaged in counterproductive activities.One can distinguish between the impact and intentions of british rule as a whole vs. the actions of specific individuals who were indo-philic. They did recognize scientific talent in the natives (!) and nurtured that on occasion (even in the 19th century). The famous collaboration between the world famous mathematician Hardy and the self-taught Ramanujam is yet another example (besides CV Raman and the Boses). By the mid 20th century Indians were well represented in academia and certainly in the judicial system.
The British have a very positive image in certain ex-colonies, such as Singapore. Given a choice between being ruled by Japanese, Portuguese and others, the British were a more civilized lot.
I wasnt aware that the IITs and IISc date back to the British Raj. I thought these were conceived in the 1950s, courtesy Nehru ?
Dev - The Anatomy of A Communal Carnage
One can ask
1. If IG had not been assasinated by her Sikh bodyguards, would the 1984 riots (or Sikh pogrom) happened ?
2. If Godhra had not happened, would Gujarat riots (or Muslim pogrom) have happened?
To apportion blame on one person or group of persons (politicians) may be too simplistic. Without underlying simmering ill-feelings between communities on the ground, how can the riots happen so easily? I agree that the government can and must anticipate and prevent such occurings (for which Modi should have been sacked). That they did so later in the wake of Akshardam temple slayings was commendable.
The fact of the matter is that Muslims in Gujarat are Ghettoized and this creates a situation that is flammable.
Events that can cause riots and mass killings can and will happen in the future. But the government in charge has the responsibility of averting them.
And last I heard, was anyone ever charged and punished for the Sikh killings in 1984? Apparently a couple of these blokes are ruling MP`s in the congress party. Are these chaps hindutva types?
Posted by
warpster
Jul 24, 2004 01:22 pm
One can ask
1. If IG had not been assasinated by her Sikh bodyguards, would the 1984 riots (or Sikh pogrom) happened ?
2. If Godhra had not happened, would Gujarat riots (or Muslim pogrom) have happened?
To apportion blame on one person or group of persons (politicians) may be too simplistic. Without underlying simmering ill-feelings between communities on the ground, how can the riots happen so easily? I agree that the government can and must anticipate and prevent such occurings (for which Modi should have been sacked). That they did so later in the wake of Akshardam temple slayings was commendable.
The fact of the matter is that Muslims in Gujarat are Ghettoized and this creates a situation that is flammable.
Events that can cause riots and mass killings can and will happen in the future. But the government in charge has the responsibility of averting them.
And last I heard, was anyone ever charged and punished for the Sikh killings in 1984? Apparently a couple of these blokes are ruling MP`s in the congress party. Are these chaps hindutva types?
The Door To The Barracks
Very educational article and high quality of interacts as well (for once, without any flames or trolls). An example of the best of chowk.
My reactions:
1. Military seems to be a known quantity; hence there is collusion from judiciary and politicians. Maybe the civilian groups don`t trust each other. The constitution is not taken seriously. That is a huge problem in nation building.
2. Resolution of kashmir, increasing trade and other exchanges with neighbouring countries in the face of globalization can help reduce the role of military, although the link is not a necessary one.
3. Lack of left oriented movements, trade unions etc. while they have their negative side, they also provide a voice to the less well-off. Clearly the feudal setup in Pakistan does not help in the development of such movements.
For the first time, I had an appreciation for lopsided nature of governance in Pakistan (Punjab, in particular, having undue influence).
4. Maybe as the author has suggested the provinces can be broken up further? and increased decentralization. The number of states in India has increased quite a bit since 1947. Bihar was recently split into 3 as was UP. And now we have a spectacle of a seated union minister from one of these tribal states on the run (on charge of murder no less).. but the miracle that is indian democracy goes along, without batting an eyelid. Judiciary in India is strong.. Once the Pak Judiciary puts it foot down, civilian groups can get some energy from that.
5. The role of islam and islamic amendments makes things more complex. It is a longlasting ripple of TNT. I think if the judiciary finds a creative way to jettison these laws without causing unrest it will one more step in making Pakistan a modern nation in which the separation between the state and personal religion is clear. I thank the Indian lawmakers and judiciary for achieving the separation and not making anything a state religion (horrors)
Posted by
warpster
Jul 24, 2004 12:18 pm
Very educational article and high quality of interacts as well (for once, without any flames or trolls). An example of the best of chowk.
My reactions:
1. Military seems to be a known quantity; hence there is collusion from judiciary and politicians. Maybe the civilian groups don`t trust each other. The constitution is not taken seriously. That is a huge problem in nation building.
2. Resolution of kashmir, increasing trade and other exchanges with neighbouring countries in the face of globalization can help reduce the role of military, although the link is not a necessary one.
3. Lack of left oriented movements, trade unions etc. while they have their negative side, they also provide a voice to the less well-off. Clearly the feudal setup in Pakistan does not help in the development of such movements.
For the first time, I had an appreciation for lopsided nature of governance in Pakistan (Punjab, in particular, having undue influence).
4. Maybe as the author has suggested the provinces can be broken up further? and increased decentralization. The number of states in India has increased quite a bit since 1947. Bihar was recently split into 3 as was UP. And now we have a spectacle of a seated union minister from one of these tribal states on the run (on charge of murder no less).. but the miracle that is indian democracy goes along, without batting an eyelid. Judiciary in India is strong.. Once the Pak Judiciary puts it foot down, civilian groups can get some energy from that.
5. The role of islam and islamic amendments makes things more complex. It is a longlasting ripple of TNT. I think if the judiciary finds a creative way to jettison these laws without causing unrest it will one more step in making Pakistan a modern nation in which the separation between the state and personal religion is clear. I thank the Indian lawmakers and judiciary for achieving the separation and not making anything a state religion (horrors)
An Open Letter to Jemima Khan
Havent seen his posts in a while. My favorite chowkie, by far.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 21, 2004 07:38 am
Where is MBZ when we need him?Havent seen his posts in a while. My favorite chowkie, by far.
An Open Letter to Jemima Khan
Einstein: Your considerable talents are urgently required for the ``Is human cloning evil?`` article.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 21, 2004 07:38 am
#35Einstein: Your considerable talents are urgently required for the ``Is human cloning evil?`` article.
Understanding Sanatana Dharma
What you must understand is this,`` said Amin, stroking his long, straggly beard. ``Sufism is not Islamic. It is jadoo: magic tricks. It is superstition. It has nothing to do with real Islam.``
Amin ul-Karim and I were standing outside a kebab restaurant among the medieval lanes of Nizamuddin, my favorite part of New Delhi. Clouds of charcoal smoke wafted into the air, and the scent of grilling meat floated out over streets bustling with pilgrims, madrasah students, sellers of rose petals, little boys playing cricket and beggars seeking alms.
To one side lay the destination to which the crowds of pilgrims were heading: a warren of alleys and bazaars leading toward the shrine of India`s most revered Sufi saint, Hazrat Nizamuddin Auliya. Nizamuddin was a 14th century Muslim mystic who withdrew from the world and preached a message of prayer, love and the unity of all things. He promised his followers that if they loosened their ties with the world, they could purge their souls of worries and directly experience God. Rituals and fasting were for the pious, said the saint, but love was everywhere and was much the surest route to the divine.
Yet only a short distance from the shrine towered a very different Islamic institution, one that embodied a quite different face of Islam. The merkaz is a modern, gray, concrete structure seven stories tall that houses the world headquarters of an austere Islamic movement called Tablighism, to which Amin belongs. The Tablighis advocate a return to the basic fundamentals of the Koran, and greatly dislike the mystical Islam of Sufism, which they believe encourages such un-Koranic practices as idolatry, music, dancing and the veneration of dead saints. This was certainly the view of Amin, who, when I met him, had been busy trying to persuade passing pilgrims to turn away from their destination. ``I invite these people who come to Nizamuddin to return to the true path of the Koran,`` he said. ``Do not pray to a corpse, I tell them. Go to the mosque, not a grave. Superstition leads to jahannam—hell. True Islam leads to jannah—paradise.``
``What sort of paradise?`` I asked.
``It is beyond all human imagination,`` said Amin. ``But there will be couches to lie on in the shade, and rivers of milk and honey and, cool, clear springwater.``
``What about the Sufi idea that God can also be found in the human heart?`` I asked.
``Paradise within us?`` said Amin, raising his eyebrows. ``No, no, this is emotional talk—a dream only. There is nothing in the Koran about paradise within the body. It is outside. To get there you must follow the commands of the Almighty. Then when you die, insh`allah, that will be where your journey ends.``
Here, it seemed to me, lay some sort of crux—a clash of civilizations, not between East and West but within Islam itself. Between the strictly regulated ways of the orthodox Tablighis and the customs of the heterodox Sufis lay not just two different understandings of Islam but two entirely different conceptions of how to live, how to die, and how to make the final and most important, and difficult, journey of all—to paradise.
Six years earlier, I had been sitting in a roadside tea shop amid the desert of Rajasthan when I saw a succession of five bicycle rickshaws appear over the horizon, winding their way through the dusty scrub of the Jaipur highway. Every time a juggernaut thundered past, the fragile rickshaws lurched toward the dirt of the hard shoulder. The desert was level and featureless. So flat was the ground that through the shimmering heat haze you could see the convoy struggling for a full half-hour before it finally drew level with the roadside dhaba. Inside the rickshaws were 12 Sufi dervishes, with wild eyes and long, unkempt beards. The fronts of their shalwars were covered with charms, pieces of tinsel and silver talismans. They were all—drivers and dervishes alike—hot and thirsty, and they pulled into the dhaba calling loudly for water and tea.
The men were braving the desert to attend the death anniversary of the Sufi saint Khwaja Garib Nawaz, who lived in the 13th century, a little before Nizamuddin`s time and who belonged to the same mystical tradition. As they shook the desert from their clothes, I asked them about their journey. ``We have cycled all the way from Delhi,`` said one of the drivers.
``Delhi? But that is—what?—400 km away?``
``Garib Nawaz will reward us for our pains,`` he replied. ``It is he who gives us strength.`` The drivers and their passengers sat together on a charpoy, pouring their tea into tin saucers, then noisily sipping the hot, sweet liquid from the plates. ``Anyone who steps through the door of his shrine,`` said another driver, ``will get paradise as his everlasting home.``
I was heading in the same direction, so the following day I went along to the Sufi festival in Ajmer. Virtually overnight the small provincial town was transformed into a heaving, mystic metropolis. Tens of thousands of pilgrims from all over India were milling around the streets, pouring out of buses, unrolling their bedding on the pavement, and cooking their breakfast on portable stoves. From the different encampments on the outskirts—tent cities that resembled the halting place of some medieval army—rivulets of devotees threaded through the bazaars, forming larger streams as they converged on the streets leading to the shrine.
A succession of Mughal mosques, tombs and pavilions were crammed to bursting with ecstatics and madmen, pilgrims and spectators. The entire complex was alive with the intoxicating smell of roses, which the devotees carried in sweet-smelling punnets to pour great fountains of petals onto the saint`s grave. The numbers were amazing, but what was even more remarkable in a nation polarized by religious rivalries was the different traditions from which the pilgrims were drawn. Many were Muslim, but there were also Hindus, as well as the odd Sikh and Christian, all queuing to pay their respects to the saint. Here, for once, you saw religion bringing people together, not dividing them. Sufism was not just something mystical, ethereal and otherworldly, I felt, but a balm on India`s festering religious wounds. I asked one group of Hindu pilgrims if they were made to feel welcome in a Muslim shrine. ``Of course,`` said their leader, a trader from neighboring Gujarat state. ``All Gods are the same.``
When I asked why they had made the effort to come all this way, the man replied with the following story: ``When our child was young, he became very ill. No medicines from any doctor helped. We tried everything, but our son only got weaker. Then some neighbors said we should come here. We were desperate, so we got on a bus. We brought the boy to the shrine and one of its guardians cured him. What could not be done in 12 months he did in a minute.`` So now the trader and his family return each year to give thanks.
From the very beginning of Sufism, music, dance, poetry and meditation have been seen as crucial spiritual strides on the path of love, an invaluable aid toward attaining unity with God—true paradise. Music, in particular, enables devotees to focus their whole being on the divine so intensely that the soul is both destroyed and resurrected. At Sufi shrines, devotees are lifted by the music into a state of spiritual ecstasy.
Yet these heterodox methods of worship have divided Sufis from many of their Muslim brethren. Throughout Islamic history, more puritanical Muslims have claimed that Sufi practices were infections from Christianity and Hinduism, quite alien to the original principles of Islam. As Najaf Haider, professor of medieval history at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, tells it, such conflicts were inevitable: ``In orthodox Islam the object of creation is the worship of God; God is the master and the devotee is the slave. The Sufis argue that God should be worshipped not because he has commanded us to but because he`s such a lovable being. The cornerstone of Sufi ideology is love, and all traditions are tolerated because anyone is capable of expressing love for God.``
The most formidable of all the anti-Sufi movements was Wahhabism from Arabia, its followers the progenitors of modern Islamic fundamentalists, who on coming to power in the early 19th century destroyed all the Sufi and Shi`a shrines in Arabia and Iraq. Today, the most prominent—and powerful—Wahhabis are the Saudis. Because they dominate media in the Arab world, many contemporary Muslims have been taught a story of Islamic religious tradition from which Sufism is rigorously excluded.
I first came across strongly anti-Sufi sentiments last fall when I visited a shrine just outside Peshawar in Pakistan`s North-West Frontier Province. The Sufi shrine of Rahman Baba has for centuries been a place where Muslim musicians and poets have gathered. It is built around the tomb of a 17th century mystic poet whose Pashtu Sufi verses have led to him being described as the nightingale of Peshawar. A friend who had lived nearby in the 1980s advised me to visit on a Thursday night, when crowds of Afghan refugee musicians sing to their saint by the light of the moon—a sight he described as unforgettable. Since he had left Peshawar, however, much had changed. Two Saudi-funded madrasahs had been built on the road to the shrine, and they had taken it upon themselves to halt what they regarded as the shrine`s un-Islamic practices.
One Thursday I drove out of Peshawar, passed the two madrasahs, and found the tarmac road giving way to a mud track, down which herds of sheep were throwing up huge clouds of dust as they were driven back to their village compounds for the night. Past the village was a well-irrigated enclosure sheltered by a windbreak of date palms. Beyond lay the glistening white dome of the shrine, and facing it a mosque and a new mud-brick library. Tamarind, neem trees and a great, spreading banyan grew beside a bubbling spring. But there were no musicians there that evening, only a small crowd of beggars, a man selling chick peas and dates from a trolley, and a couple of Sufi holy men carrying green flags. Watching suspiciously a short distance away were two young men wearing full beards, white robes and checked red-and-white Saudi ghuttras, or head scarves.
I asked one of the shrine`s guardians, Tila Mohammed, why there were not more pilgrims and what had happened to the musicians for which his shrine was once famous. He motioned for me to come into his room beside the library, out of the earshot of the two men in ghuttras.
``My family has been singing here for generations,`` said Tila Mohammed. ``But now these Arab madrasah students come here and create trouble. They tell us that what we do is wrong. They ask people who are singing to stop. Sometimes arguments break out—even fistfights. This used to be a place where people came for peace of mind. Now they just encounter more problems, so gradually people have stopped coming.``
``We pray that Baba will work a miracle,`` Tila Mohammed continued, ``that good will overcome evil. But our way is pacifist. We love. We never fight. When these Arabs come here, I just don`t know what to do to stop them.``
The tablighis in Nizamuddin are not Wahhabi, but their beliefs are derived from similar theological traditions. They share the Wahhabis` suspicion of the Sufis, and their effect on the Nizamuddin shrine is the same, as they slowly attempt to undermine Islam`s most tolerant and syncretic incarnation just when that face of Islam is most needed in healing the growing breach between Islam and other religions. After leaving Amin at the doors of his Tablighi headquarters, I headed on down into the alleys of Nizamuddin. Taking off my sandals at the entrance of the shrine, I spoke with Hussein, the old man who looks after the shoes of the pilgrims. I asked what he thought of the Tablighis. Hussein`s response was passionate: ``These people are so extreme and intolerant. Look around you. Everyone in Delhi knows about the power of Nizamuddin. Everyone knows that if your heart is pure and you ask him something, that he cannot refuse you. I have felt his power in my own life. I lost my hut in a slum clearance 10 years ago. I was hungry and I had nothing. But I prayed to the saint, and through him I found a place to stay and a way of supporting my family. I tell you: if anybody abuses Nizamuddin Auliya, I will be the first to defend him—with my knife if need be.``
It was a Thursday evening when, during the singing of the qawwalis, the mesmerizing love songs of the Indian Sufis, the spiritual life of the shrine was to reach its climax. Huge crowds of pilgrims were already sitting cross-legged in the forecourt in front of the tomb, and the first qawwali singers were beginning to strike up their music. Around them was a press of excited onlookers. Most pilgrims had come with their families—groups of little boys with eyes wonderfully darkened with kohl, little girls who perhaps had been ill and had been brought for healing. At the shrine itself there were young women trying to tie small threads through the lattices of its screens, each one of them with some prayer or petition, usually a plea for marriage or children.
To one side was a huge cauldron of biryani that had just been carried in to feed the poor. On another was a gathering of women who had come to learn to read Arabic in the simple school that operated from the back of the shrine. There were Muslim grandmothers in black chadors from Bengal, Punjabi Sikhs in their blue turbans, Hindu women from South India with the large red bindis on their foreheads, all coming to pray to the saint, all coming to use Nizamuddin as their intermediary to God.
The crowds thickened. The tempo of the music quickened, and some of the pilgrims began to sink into a trance. Old men were swaying now, arms extended, hands cupped in supplication, lost to the world; women were tossing their hair from side to side; and the first of a succession of dervishes rose to their feet to dance. The atmosphere, already heavy with the rich scent of rose petals, grew heavier still, filled with the softly mouthed and murmured prayers, and with the passionate incantations and expectations of 10,000 pilgrims.
I left them there, with their prayers and petitions, still seeking paradise in that most elusive of all destinations, the human heart.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 19, 2004 03:49 pm
interesting article from TIME on the tension between Sufism and orthodox Islam in India and Pakistan.What you must understand is this,`` said Amin, stroking his long, straggly beard. ``Sufism is not Islamic. It is jadoo: magic tricks. It is superstition. It has nothing to do with real Islam.``
Amin ul-Karim and I were standing outside a kebab restaurant among the medieval lanes of Nizamuddin, my favorite part of New Delhi. Clouds of charcoal smoke wafted into the air, and the scent of grilling meat floated out over streets bustling with pilgrims, madrasah students, sellers of rose petals, little boys playing cricket and beggars seeking alms.
To one side lay the destination to which the crowds of pilgrims were heading: a warren of alleys and bazaars leading toward the shrine of India`s most revered Sufi saint, Hazrat Nizamuddin Auliya. Nizamuddin was a 14th century Muslim mystic who withdrew from the world and preached a message of prayer, love and the unity of all things. He promised his followers that if they loosened their ties with the world, they could purge their souls of worries and directly experience God. Rituals and fasting were for the pious, said the saint, but love was everywhere and was much the surest route to the divine.
Yet only a short distance from the shrine towered a very different Islamic institution, one that embodied a quite different face of Islam. The merkaz is a modern, gray, concrete structure seven stories tall that houses the world headquarters of an austere Islamic movement called Tablighism, to which Amin belongs. The Tablighis advocate a return to the basic fundamentals of the Koran, and greatly dislike the mystical Islam of Sufism, which they believe encourages such un-Koranic practices as idolatry, music, dancing and the veneration of dead saints. This was certainly the view of Amin, who, when I met him, had been busy trying to persuade passing pilgrims to turn away from their destination. ``I invite these people who come to Nizamuddin to return to the true path of the Koran,`` he said. ``Do not pray to a corpse, I tell them. Go to the mosque, not a grave. Superstition leads to jahannam—hell. True Islam leads to jannah—paradise.``
``What sort of paradise?`` I asked.
``It is beyond all human imagination,`` said Amin. ``But there will be couches to lie on in the shade, and rivers of milk and honey and, cool, clear springwater.``
``What about the Sufi idea that God can also be found in the human heart?`` I asked.
``Paradise within us?`` said Amin, raising his eyebrows. ``No, no, this is emotional talk—a dream only. There is nothing in the Koran about paradise within the body. It is outside. To get there you must follow the commands of the Almighty. Then when you die, insh`allah, that will be where your journey ends.``
Here, it seemed to me, lay some sort of crux—a clash of civilizations, not between East and West but within Islam itself. Between the strictly regulated ways of the orthodox Tablighis and the customs of the heterodox Sufis lay not just two different understandings of Islam but two entirely different conceptions of how to live, how to die, and how to make the final and most important, and difficult, journey of all—to paradise.
Six years earlier, I had been sitting in a roadside tea shop amid the desert of Rajasthan when I saw a succession of five bicycle rickshaws appear over the horizon, winding their way through the dusty scrub of the Jaipur highway. Every time a juggernaut thundered past, the fragile rickshaws lurched toward the dirt of the hard shoulder. The desert was level and featureless. So flat was the ground that through the shimmering heat haze you could see the convoy struggling for a full half-hour before it finally drew level with the roadside dhaba. Inside the rickshaws were 12 Sufi dervishes, with wild eyes and long, unkempt beards. The fronts of their shalwars were covered with charms, pieces of tinsel and silver talismans. They were all—drivers and dervishes alike—hot and thirsty, and they pulled into the dhaba calling loudly for water and tea.
The men were braving the desert to attend the death anniversary of the Sufi saint Khwaja Garib Nawaz, who lived in the 13th century, a little before Nizamuddin`s time and who belonged to the same mystical tradition. As they shook the desert from their clothes, I asked them about their journey. ``We have cycled all the way from Delhi,`` said one of the drivers.
``Delhi? But that is—what?—400 km away?``
``Garib Nawaz will reward us for our pains,`` he replied. ``It is he who gives us strength.`` The drivers and their passengers sat together on a charpoy, pouring their tea into tin saucers, then noisily sipping the hot, sweet liquid from the plates. ``Anyone who steps through the door of his shrine,`` said another driver, ``will get paradise as his everlasting home.``
I was heading in the same direction, so the following day I went along to the Sufi festival in Ajmer. Virtually overnight the small provincial town was transformed into a heaving, mystic metropolis. Tens of thousands of pilgrims from all over India were milling around the streets, pouring out of buses, unrolling their bedding on the pavement, and cooking their breakfast on portable stoves. From the different encampments on the outskirts—tent cities that resembled the halting place of some medieval army—rivulets of devotees threaded through the bazaars, forming larger streams as they converged on the streets leading to the shrine.
A succession of Mughal mosques, tombs and pavilions were crammed to bursting with ecstatics and madmen, pilgrims and spectators. The entire complex was alive with the intoxicating smell of roses, which the devotees carried in sweet-smelling punnets to pour great fountains of petals onto the saint`s grave. The numbers were amazing, but what was even more remarkable in a nation polarized by religious rivalries was the different traditions from which the pilgrims were drawn. Many were Muslim, but there were also Hindus, as well as the odd Sikh and Christian, all queuing to pay their respects to the saint. Here, for once, you saw religion bringing people together, not dividing them. Sufism was not just something mystical, ethereal and otherworldly, I felt, but a balm on India`s festering religious wounds. I asked one group of Hindu pilgrims if they were made to feel welcome in a Muslim shrine. ``Of course,`` said their leader, a trader from neighboring Gujarat state. ``All Gods are the same.``
When I asked why they had made the effort to come all this way, the man replied with the following story: ``When our child was young, he became very ill. No medicines from any doctor helped. We tried everything, but our son only got weaker. Then some neighbors said we should come here. We were desperate, so we got on a bus. We brought the boy to the shrine and one of its guardians cured him. What could not be done in 12 months he did in a minute.`` So now the trader and his family return each year to give thanks.
From the very beginning of Sufism, music, dance, poetry and meditation have been seen as crucial spiritual strides on the path of love, an invaluable aid toward attaining unity with God—true paradise. Music, in particular, enables devotees to focus their whole being on the divine so intensely that the soul is both destroyed and resurrected. At Sufi shrines, devotees are lifted by the music into a state of spiritual ecstasy.
Yet these heterodox methods of worship have divided Sufis from many of their Muslim brethren. Throughout Islamic history, more puritanical Muslims have claimed that Sufi practices were infections from Christianity and Hinduism, quite alien to the original principles of Islam. As Najaf Haider, professor of medieval history at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, tells it, such conflicts were inevitable: ``In orthodox Islam the object of creation is the worship of God; God is the master and the devotee is the slave. The Sufis argue that God should be worshipped not because he has commanded us to but because he`s such a lovable being. The cornerstone of Sufi ideology is love, and all traditions are tolerated because anyone is capable of expressing love for God.``
The most formidable of all the anti-Sufi movements was Wahhabism from Arabia, its followers the progenitors of modern Islamic fundamentalists, who on coming to power in the early 19th century destroyed all the Sufi and Shi`a shrines in Arabia and Iraq. Today, the most prominent—and powerful—Wahhabis are the Saudis. Because they dominate media in the Arab world, many contemporary Muslims have been taught a story of Islamic religious tradition from which Sufism is rigorously excluded.
I first came across strongly anti-Sufi sentiments last fall when I visited a shrine just outside Peshawar in Pakistan`s North-West Frontier Province. The Sufi shrine of Rahman Baba has for centuries been a place where Muslim musicians and poets have gathered. It is built around the tomb of a 17th century mystic poet whose Pashtu Sufi verses have led to him being described as the nightingale of Peshawar. A friend who had lived nearby in the 1980s advised me to visit on a Thursday night, when crowds of Afghan refugee musicians sing to their saint by the light of the moon—a sight he described as unforgettable. Since he had left Peshawar, however, much had changed. Two Saudi-funded madrasahs had been built on the road to the shrine, and they had taken it upon themselves to halt what they regarded as the shrine`s un-Islamic practices.
One Thursday I drove out of Peshawar, passed the two madrasahs, and found the tarmac road giving way to a mud track, down which herds of sheep were throwing up huge clouds of dust as they were driven back to their village compounds for the night. Past the village was a well-irrigated enclosure sheltered by a windbreak of date palms. Beyond lay the glistening white dome of the shrine, and facing it a mosque and a new mud-brick library. Tamarind, neem trees and a great, spreading banyan grew beside a bubbling spring. But there were no musicians there that evening, only a small crowd of beggars, a man selling chick peas and dates from a trolley, and a couple of Sufi holy men carrying green flags. Watching suspiciously a short distance away were two young men wearing full beards, white robes and checked red-and-white Saudi ghuttras, or head scarves.
I asked one of the shrine`s guardians, Tila Mohammed, why there were not more pilgrims and what had happened to the musicians for which his shrine was once famous. He motioned for me to come into his room beside the library, out of the earshot of the two men in ghuttras.
``My family has been singing here for generations,`` said Tila Mohammed. ``But now these Arab madrasah students come here and create trouble. They tell us that what we do is wrong. They ask people who are singing to stop. Sometimes arguments break out—even fistfights. This used to be a place where people came for peace of mind. Now they just encounter more problems, so gradually people have stopped coming.``
``We pray that Baba will work a miracle,`` Tila Mohammed continued, ``that good will overcome evil. But our way is pacifist. We love. We never fight. When these Arabs come here, I just don`t know what to do to stop them.``
The tablighis in Nizamuddin are not Wahhabi, but their beliefs are derived from similar theological traditions. They share the Wahhabis` suspicion of the Sufis, and their effect on the Nizamuddin shrine is the same, as they slowly attempt to undermine Islam`s most tolerant and syncretic incarnation just when that face of Islam is most needed in healing the growing breach between Islam and other religions. After leaving Amin at the doors of his Tablighi headquarters, I headed on down into the alleys of Nizamuddin. Taking off my sandals at the entrance of the shrine, I spoke with Hussein, the old man who looks after the shoes of the pilgrims. I asked what he thought of the Tablighis. Hussein`s response was passionate: ``These people are so extreme and intolerant. Look around you. Everyone in Delhi knows about the power of Nizamuddin. Everyone knows that if your heart is pure and you ask him something, that he cannot refuse you. I have felt his power in my own life. I lost my hut in a slum clearance 10 years ago. I was hungry and I had nothing. But I prayed to the saint, and through him I found a place to stay and a way of supporting my family. I tell you: if anybody abuses Nizamuddin Auliya, I will be the first to defend him—with my knife if need be.``
It was a Thursday evening when, during the singing of the qawwalis, the mesmerizing love songs of the Indian Sufis, the spiritual life of the shrine was to reach its climax. Huge crowds of pilgrims were already sitting cross-legged in the forecourt in front of the tomb, and the first qawwali singers were beginning to strike up their music. Around them was a press of excited onlookers. Most pilgrims had come with their families—groups of little boys with eyes wonderfully darkened with kohl, little girls who perhaps had been ill and had been brought for healing. At the shrine itself there were young women trying to tie small threads through the lattices of its screens, each one of them with some prayer or petition, usually a plea for marriage or children.
To one side was a huge cauldron of biryani that had just been carried in to feed the poor. On another was a gathering of women who had come to learn to read Arabic in the simple school that operated from the back of the shrine. There were Muslim grandmothers in black chadors from Bengal, Punjabi Sikhs in their blue turbans, Hindu women from South India with the large red bindis on their foreheads, all coming to pray to the saint, all coming to use Nizamuddin as their intermediary to God.
The crowds thickened. The tempo of the music quickened, and some of the pilgrims began to sink into a trance. Old men were swaying now, arms extended, hands cupped in supplication, lost to the world; women were tossing their hair from side to side; and the first of a succession of dervishes rose to their feet to dance. The atmosphere, already heavy with the rich scent of rose petals, grew heavier still, filled with the softly mouthed and murmured prayers, and with the passionate incantations and expectations of 10,000 pilgrims.
I left them there, with their prayers and petitions, still seeking paradise in that most elusive of all destinations, the human heart.
Understanding Sanatana Dharma
The article you cut and paste had factual and other inaccuracies and biases. In response to a critique in 2002, Microsoft Encarta`s section on Hinduism has been revised recently.
The original critique of the Encarta content is here (an example of a website article can lead to actual action and results)
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=245733
The updated version of the article is here
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555715/Hinduism.html
So you did a very good thing by referring to your older version of Encarta!
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to provide some corrective measures.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 18, 2004 09:31 pm
sidhibaat #704The article you cut and paste had factual and other inaccuracies and biases. In response to a critique in 2002, Microsoft Encarta`s section on Hinduism has been revised recently.
The original critique of the Encarta content is here (an example of a website article can lead to actual action and results)
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=245733
The updated version of the article is here
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555715/Hinduism.html
So you did a very good thing by referring to your older version of Encarta!
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to provide some corrective measures.
Dear Sisters, Meet Maria Sharapova
--
No its not that I cant handle appreciation of beauty, I find it offensive when any woman, veiled or unveiled, is treated like a piece of meat and not a human.
--
So you do not mind euphemisms such as ``nice``. How can you conclude that someone does not appreciate your humanity if they praise a certain body part or are drawn by your sexuality? If we believe that honesty is a virtue, why cannot one compliment someone (in the nicest possible way, of course; it is possible to use harmless words in a very harassing manner too) with reference to said physical attributes without it carrying further implications pertaining to ``meat``, ``objectification`` and what not. Why distance oneself from the physical? It is logically possible for someone to be in love with your physicality, intellect and spirituality, all at the same time. One does not exclude the other.
You need to re-evaluate your assumptions about Men might mean based on what they say.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 16, 2004 04:56 pm
faiza hussain clarifies--
No its not that I cant handle appreciation of beauty, I find it offensive when any woman, veiled or unveiled, is treated like a piece of meat and not a human.
--
So you do not mind euphemisms such as ``nice``. How can you conclude that someone does not appreciate your humanity if they praise a certain body part or are drawn by your sexuality? If we believe that honesty is a virtue, why cannot one compliment someone (in the nicest possible way, of course; it is possible to use harmless words in a very harassing manner too) with reference to said physical attributes without it carrying further implications pertaining to ``meat``, ``objectification`` and what not. Why distance oneself from the physical? It is logically possible for someone to be in love with your physicality, intellect and spirituality, all at the same time. One does not exclude the other.
You need to re-evaluate your assumptions about Men might mean based on what they say.
Dear Sisters, Meet Maria Sharapova
What I find very curious and very amusing is how lack of evidence in the Koran or related documents is interpreted as support for a certain choice. In statistical inference, this is the equivalent of the fallacy of confirming the null hypothesis. I am sure the Koran does not have anything specific on suicide bombers as well. What about watching bollywood movies ? If the veil is recommended for the prophet`s wives, surely are ordinary women with religious piety wrong to assume that it would be appropriate for them as well ?
Why cannot the inappropriateness of face masks and veils be accepted without reference to said documents ? On its own merits, no less, from a contemporary, rational perspective. Why should engage in a debate about is said or meant or prescribed or proscribed in out-dated docs when the apparent demerits of a particular tradition (be it veiling or circumcision) are plain for all to see ?
Obsession about conforming to medieval arabic social norms seems to contribute to confusion and the backwardness of contemporary muslim societies. Of course this is only simply stating the obvious.
It would be great if the hijabins such as Summaiya undertook efforts to ban the veil. Their efforts, as conservatives, would carry more conviction. Regarding your experiences on how you (Summaiya) were harassed, this simply reflects a society with deep internal contradictions and no acceptable outlets for releasing these energies.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 16, 2004 03:52 pm
What I find very curious and very amusing is how lack of evidence in the Koran or related documents is interpreted as support for a certain choice. In statistical inference, this is the equivalent of the fallacy of confirming the null hypothesis. I am sure the Koran does not have anything specific on suicide bombers as well. What about watching bollywood movies ? If the veil is recommended for the prophet`s wives, surely are ordinary women with religious piety wrong to assume that it would be appropriate for them as well ?
Why cannot the inappropriateness of face masks and veils be accepted without reference to said documents ? On its own merits, no less, from a contemporary, rational perspective. Why should engage in a debate about is said or meant or prescribed or proscribed in out-dated docs when the apparent demerits of a particular tradition (be it veiling or circumcision) are plain for all to see ?
Obsession about conforming to medieval arabic social norms seems to contribute to confusion and the backwardness of contemporary muslim societies. Of course this is only simply stating the obvious.
It would be great if the hijabins such as Summaiya undertook efforts to ban the veil. Their efforts, as conservatives, would carry more conviction. Regarding your experiences on how you (Summaiya) were harassed, this simply reflects a society with deep internal contradictions and no acceptable outlets for releasing these energies.
Dear Sisters, Meet Maria Sharapova
--
If anything those who are riding the fence will pick sides and we will see you to the end and deliver you of your misery so you may meet the one you worship in the most expeditious manner.
--
is this what you actually meant to say? It would be interpreted as a veiled threat (fatwa-like).
Let us try to elevate the level of discussion here. Clearly there is a camp that feels that the veil is ok and that it is a woman`s choice. In practice they are wearing the hijab which is a very visible facial attire (say like a hat or turban) but it is quite far from the veil, which is mask-like and evil.
Let us be honest here. If there were no correlation between fundamentalism and attire, I dont think we should cares two hoots about what people want to wear (however, the veil is objectionable no matter what; it is dehumanizing and offensive to the perceiver).
But the fact of the matter is that such attire correlates with a whole package of fundamentalist attitudes, beliefs and behaviors. That is the crux of the matter. If one were in a predominantly muslim country (note: I did not use the word islamic) where women enjoyed equal rights and where attire only correlated with spirituality or what have you, I dont believe anyone would grudge people their choice of making fashion statements. But the use of the hijab, if anything, has risen with the spread of islamic fundamentalism and therefore is a marker for a rather retrogressive world-view. Until then, wearers of such attire will also be the targets of stereotyping, even though they may have very divergent beliefs and values from the stereotype.
To a large extent, the attitudes of women in hijab is culture specific. In SE Asia, for example, women in hijab do all kinds of jobs and, in my stay there, I had a positive stereotype of female students in hijab (as they didnt socialize they spent more time studying). So it is possible to wear a hijab and be charming, articulate and even flirty. It is very interesting to watch the combination of hijab, lipstick and body hugging jeans and eye-popping t-shirts! (admittedly such combinations are the exception) Clearly something else was at work here.
So shiraz: can u clarify whether ur objection is only to the dress qua dress or whether it is based on something more?
Posted by
warpster
Jul 16, 2004 12:00 pm
shiraz--
If anything those who are riding the fence will pick sides and we will see you to the end and deliver you of your misery so you may meet the one you worship in the most expeditious manner.
--
is this what you actually meant to say? It would be interpreted as a veiled threat (fatwa-like).
Let us try to elevate the level of discussion here. Clearly there is a camp that feels that the veil is ok and that it is a woman`s choice. In practice they are wearing the hijab which is a very visible facial attire (say like a hat or turban) but it is quite far from the veil, which is mask-like and evil.
Let us be honest here. If there were no correlation between fundamentalism and attire, I dont think we should cares two hoots about what people want to wear (however, the veil is objectionable no matter what; it is dehumanizing and offensive to the perceiver).
But the fact of the matter is that such attire correlates with a whole package of fundamentalist attitudes, beliefs and behaviors. That is the crux of the matter. If one were in a predominantly muslim country (note: I did not use the word islamic) where women enjoyed equal rights and where attire only correlated with spirituality or what have you, I dont believe anyone would grudge people their choice of making fashion statements. But the use of the hijab, if anything, has risen with the spread of islamic fundamentalism and therefore is a marker for a rather retrogressive world-view. Until then, wearers of such attire will also be the targets of stereotyping, even though they may have very divergent beliefs and values from the stereotype.
To a large extent, the attitudes of women in hijab is culture specific. In SE Asia, for example, women in hijab do all kinds of jobs and, in my stay there, I had a positive stereotype of female students in hijab (as they didnt socialize they spent more time studying). So it is possible to wear a hijab and be charming, articulate and even flirty. It is very interesting to watch the combination of hijab, lipstick and body hugging jeans and eye-popping t-shirts! (admittedly such combinations are the exception) Clearly something else was at work here.
So shiraz: can u clarify whether ur objection is only to the dress qua dress or whether it is based on something more?
Dear Sisters, Meet Maria Sharapova
Ms. Fazia hassan appears to have serious hangups. What is so wrong about appreciating beauty whether it is in nature or other people ? Must we be blind ? And it can be beauty of any kind, in physique, personality or whatever. You cant handle it if someone says that they they think you are ``hot`` ? You are disturbed by appreciation ? You think that people who appreciate beauty and sexiness are sick ? And far from causing untold ills, masturbation (wanking as you so colorfully named it) reduces the chances of prostate cancer. You may wish to pass this piece of evidence to your male friend(s) for guiltfree wanking. And while I havent seen relevant research, more enlightened women also engage in such practices with assorted aids, presumably to their betterment.
And it is not wrong to express disdain for people who cover themselves completely, making no facial identification possible. In case you havent heard, we humans (among other primates) have very special (brain) networks to detect faces. Such capabilities would never have evolved had our ancestors for some weird reason decided that seeing people was evil.
sometimes one has to take a clear stand. the veil is an evil anachronism in this day and age. And we must be grateful for Shiraz for taking a clear position on this and expressing it in his casual and open way.
And yes: your posting his pic without his permission is a violation of privacy. The fact that he turns to have a pretty sexy look and would have no problems with women is besides the point. All your justifications are, in the end, so much of hot air.
Posted by
warpster
Jul 16, 2004 01:37 am
I didnt check this thread for a while and apparently a lot has happened.Ms. Fazia hassan appears to have serious hangups. What is so wrong about appreciating beauty whether it is in nature or other people ? Must we be blind ? And it can be beauty of any kind, in physique, personality or whatever. You cant handle it if someone says that they they think you are ``hot`` ? You are disturbed by appreciation ? You think that people who appreciate beauty and sexiness are sick ? And far from causing untold ills, masturbation (wanking as you so colorfully named it) reduces the chances of prostate cancer. You may wish to pass this piece of evidence to your male friend(s) for guiltfree wanking. And while I havent seen relevant research, more enlightened women also engage in such practices with assorted aids, presumably to their betterment.
And it is not wrong to express disdain for people who cover themselves completely, making no facial identification possible. In case you havent heard, we humans (among other primates) have very special (brain) networks to detect faces. Such capabilities would never have evolved had our ancestors for some weird reason decided that seeing people was evil.
sometimes one has to take a clear stand. the veil is an evil anachronism in this day and age. And we must be grateful for Shiraz for taking a clear position on this and expressing it in his casual and open way.
And yes: your posting his pic without his permission is a violation of privacy. The fact that he turns to have a pretty sexy look and would have no problems with women is besides the point. All your justifications are, in the end, so much of hot air.
- warpster
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