Indian Diplomacy : Time To Recheck
Alas! Jealousy has many faces...:
#3
``And of course that vastly over-rated shyster Jinnah (a 2-bit lawyer then fast fading into irrelevance)``
Irrelevance:
This is a discussion on a UK Based NON-PAKISTANI, NON-SOUTH ASIAN Message board with predominantly Non-Pakistani population (Aisha and the Greywolf are the only Pakistanis)
to Quote Mr.Charles Propelec, a regular every day canadian for example :
``The more I learn about this man, the more I want to learn``
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Extensive interview on Jinnah
Last Saturday Mr Lee did an interview on “Jinnah” for Versa, a TV, Radio and Film major at San Jose, California.
This is the first ever interview he gives on the subject for the USA media. The interview was conducted by Aisha Fayyazi, the interview can be listen to at Versa in Real Media. Premium Members can watch the interview on Mpeg4 video, which includes 15 more minutes of extended post-interview commentary at CL WebTV.
``That is why this film should be seen. As I said this earlier, to give a true picture of the meaning of Islam and also to give a true picture of the founding of a Muslim state. Which was created for the right reasons. If you go to Pakistan, I don`t think there is a single place you could go into, any shop, any restaurant, any building, any office where there isn`t either a photograph or a painting or a picture of the Quaid-e-Azam. Everywhere I went that was the case. He is much revered in Pakistan. He`s an almost god-like figure, certainly an icon, a legend and I think this film is very important...``
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JinnahFilm.com Mr Lee`s best film, Help with its release
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09-07-2002 21:05
Nilredwen
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Very informative
I didn`t expect to sit and listen to the whole half hour interview at one sitting but I found it so fascinating I couldn`t tear myself away. The more I hear about the man Jinnah and the movie the more I hope that someday I shall have the opportunity to see this film. I particularily found it heartening to hear the quote from Jinnah where he advocated for complete freedom of religion in Pakistan. That was very forward thinking of him and clearly got him in trouble with some of the extremists!
I also was very interested when they discussed the Kashmir conflict`s roots. This is such an important and hot issue today and it is important to seek a better understanding of how the troubles arose. I definitely learned some new facts from the movie clip of the trial. More people should be exposed to this and be enlightened!
Finally I found Mr. Lee`s last comments on how he feels that it is important for an actor to portray a historical figure as realistically and close to reality as possible. This made me wonder what Mr. Lee thinks of such movies as ``A Beautiful Mind`` which was accused by many people of bending the truth a lot about the main character and changing things about. Does he disapprove of taking such liberties then in other films? Or only in the case of films about such major historical/national figures as Jinnah?
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10-07-2002 03:11
Charles
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Registered: Oct 2000
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Good interview
Impressive to hear Mr. Lee giving his personal opinions on both Jinnah the man and Jinnah the film. Timing couldn`t be better for me personally, as I spent a couple hours last night watching the documentary Jinnah: The Making of Pakistan on the Canadian History channel. It is truly amazing what Mr. Jinnah was able to accomplish, and based on what I`ve both read and seen, I`d say that much of that achievement is due solely to Mr. Jinnah`s personality and sheer force of will. Hearing Mr. Lee`s views added an interesting perspective on this most fascinating of men - Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
I noted in the interview that Mr. Lee mentioned that friends and family of Mr. Jinnah were pleased with his performance, which makes me wonder if Mr. Lee had on any occasion ever met with either Dina Wadia or her son Nusli Wadia? If so, is there any information available from Mr. Lee regarding the meeting or their comments?
The more I learn about this man, the more I want to learn!
Cheers!
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10-07-2002 03:59
Skorpionn
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Mr. Eloquence
Once again, an eloquent and intelligent discussion of the film by Mr. Lee. It`s fascinating how he immersed himself so deeply into the history of this man in order to ``honor`` the role he played in the film. There`s so much other actors/actresses could learn from his examples and dedication - but fame seems to be their #1 concern instead of truly doing their job correctly as an ``actor.`` I`m anticipating watching it.
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10-07-2002 04:09
Greywolf
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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Lahore Pakistan
Posts: 13
As a Pakistani ....
As a Pakistani, I am most grateful to all of you for this amazing discussion... and to Mr. Lee for campaigning so fervently for this movie... Patrick French, the British Historian, once commented that Mohammed Ali Jinnah was the most under-rated statesman of the 20th century... whose achievements deserve a lot more than that which has been accorded to him...
His image was deliberately distorted by Mountbatten who hated Jinnah for denying him the opportunity of being Pakistan`s first Governor General and then the otherwise brilliant movie Gandhi whose director Attenborough was heavily influenced by Mountbatten... I am not aware of Mr.Lee`s meeting with Mr.Wadia, though when I was living in US for College .. I was made aware of the fact that Mr. Jinnah`s daughter Dina currently resides on Manhattan`s Park Avenue... She is pretty reclusive so I couldn`t imagine meeting her...
Mohammed Ali Jinnah stood for Democracy, complete freedom of religion, rule of law and equal rights for all... sadly Pakistan has not always honored the true creed of this man... It is true that Jinnah`s picture is often put up in every building in Pakistan.. but Pakistanis have ignored Mr.Jinnah`s true beliefs, ideals... today Pakistan is nothing like Mr.Jinnah wanted it to be... More important than introducing Mr. Jinnah to world at large, THIS MOVIE WILL PLAY AN IMPORTANT PART IN MAKING PAKISTANIS REALIZE THE TRUE CREED OF THEIR FOUNDING FATHER....
And as a Pakistani, I THANK MR.LEE for this...
__________________
You are FREE. You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.
Jinnah 11th August 1947
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10-07-2002 07:10
mpapadakis
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Extraordinary Insight...
I for one cannot wait to see this film hopefully it will be released before to long.
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10-07-2002 08:51
Jurious
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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 156
Excellent film
I`m one of the fortunate people who has seen Jinnah, and I think that it`s a wonderful film. To be honest, I couldn`t believe that there was so much I didn`t know about Pakistan and its history, and it taught me alot.
I`m ashamed that stuff like this isn`t taught to us in schools - we concentrate quite selfishly on our own history, or, if not our own, then the history of close European countries or of the Americans - never of Asia or Africa. I`m not saying that we shouldn`t know about our own countires - I just think we need to know a little more about the rest of the world, and of people like Jinnah, whom, before the film, I had never even heard of! Yet he did so much!
Infact, so inspiring did I find the movie - with much thanks to Mr.Lee`s wonderful performance, and of the hard work put into the film by the entire cast and crew - that I wanted to find out more - hence why I may be doing some history coursework on the conflicts surrounding the formation of Pakistan, and everything. I have already done much more research on the subject, and have found it an incredibly engaging topic.
It`s great to see Mr.Lee doing an interview about it, though I haven`t seen it myself yet. I think he did very well in the role, and he worked very hard to make his role close to the real man, Jinnah. I only hope that people who haven`t yet seen this film do get the chance to some day in the near future.
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10-07-2002 17:47
Joakim
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Jinnah
This is the best film Mr Lee has done during the 90`s.
This is one of the best interviews I`ve ever heard on Jinnah. It`s wonderful that it`s for an American broadcast. I don`t think you can be more specific than Mr Lee is in the interview. This film should be seen.
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11-07-2002 20:56
farre
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Registered: Jun 2001
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MPEG-4
Juan,
Has the MPEG-4 version of Versa been posted? I don`t see it listed in the CL Web TV section yet...
Best,
John F
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11-07-2002 21:56
Greywolf
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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Lahore Pakistan
Posts: 13
Video of the Interview
I doubt that there is a video of the interview... because I know Aisha Fayyazi personally, and most of her interviews are conducted over the phone...
By the way, can anyone give the name of the company/group which is preventing `Jinnah``s release on DVD/Home Video?? Because I am writing a letter of protest to the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, and will also have a letter of protest read out in the Elected legislature of Pakistan, once that is in session after the October elections....
-YLH
__________________
You are FREE. You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.
Jinnah 11th August 1947
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12-07-2002 08:25
Admin 2
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quote:
Has the MPEG-4 version of Versa been posted? I don`t see it listed in the CL Web TV section yet...
No, it hasn`t been posted yet. My brother is away until Sunday.
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12-07-2002 14:26
Alfonso
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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Chicago, USA
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Wealth of information
Mr. Lee`s interview with Ms. Fayyazi was fascinating and informative. But, even more fascinating still are some of the links at the ``Versa`` website. There one can find a wealth of information (of varying points of view from Muslim to Marxist) on Pakistan`s history, culture, and social-economic problems and development.
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The Mongols with the massed machines.``
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12-07-2002 18:05
Admin 2
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The complete video interview is now at CL WebTV. One file, all connections.
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13-07-2002 16:02
aisha
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Transcript of interview
I am pasting the transcript of the interview, I still have to update it on the website. Since I did the interview we have got more than half a million hits on the site and I have got a couple of emails, acknowledging how good a job Mr. Lee did.
-Aisha
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Aisha Sarwari: Thank you for giving us your precious time.
Christopher Lee: Not at all
Aisha Sarwari: We are more interested in finding out form you about the film, JINNAH. And briefly before we get into the detailed questions, tell us how an independent film like JINNAH compare to other big hits like, LORD OF THE RINGS?
Christopher Lee: You can’t compare, one film with another at all. And you have to remember that JINNAH is a very low budget picture, although it looks like a very high budget picture. But you can’t possibly compare a film which is about basically one individual and the people around him, who created a nation, with a film like the LORD OF THE RINGS, which is a great epic. In fact it’s three films, and its not basically just about one person. Certainly, not about the founder of a modern nation.
Aisha Sarwari: So what is your perception now about Jinnah? Did it change significantly? Did you know about him when you chose the movie?
Christopher Lee: I think that the film JINNAH is an extremely important film, for many reasons and it should be seen now. The reasons, actually there are quiet a few of them. One, it shows the true meaning of Islam. Islam means submission to the will of God. It does not mean terrorism or fundamentalism. Secondly, it shows the foundation of a Muslim state. How it came into being and how the founder of that nation achieved this. And again, it has nothing to do with all the terrible things that are happening in the rest of the world. It’s the story of a true Muslim and the people around him who decided that the Muslims of India needed a country of their own. There are several million Muslims still living in India, but of course Pakistan was created in 1947. Recorded (inaudible) partition of India and what became Pakistan.
The man responsible for this, basically it was one man, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, known of course Pakistan as the Quaid-e-Azam. Which means, ‘a great leader.’ He was a brilliant man with great intellect, great determination, iron will, honest, a man with total integrity. And he believed implicitly in what he was doing and he was determined that it would be for the good for the Muslim population to have their own country. So the story is not just about the creation of a state. As it is with us today. It is about one man and what he achieved, not just as a political leader, but as a father, as a brother and as a husband.
Now a lot of this information is comparatively unknown to the vast majority of the people in Pakistan today and many hundreds and millions of Muslims all over the world. He did single-handedly, well, almost single-handedly, so obviously because he had very fine advisers, determined and dedicated people around him. He almost single-handedly did create this nation. And he was a dying man and he knew it. And this is quiet clear in the film. Because he has a meeting with a doctor. He died of cancer of the lungs. He was a chain smoker and many of the photographs you see of him, he will have a cigarette or a pipe or a cigar in his hands. Unless of course it was an official function and he was making a speech or something like that. There is no doubt that it probably hastened his death. But he knew it. He knew that he was dying. Which makes it even more remarkable that he was able to keep going. So this is in essence the story of a nation.
For me as an actor, its certainly the most important part I have ever played. Because the responsibility on my shoulders was immense. I went to the country he founded and I was there for ten weeks, playing the leader of the nation, the creator of the nation, in the country he created, in front of his own people, and I can only say that with the exception of one newspaper that attacked us virtually everyday we received the gratitude of virtually everybody we spoke to: members of his family, people who knew him, people who worked for him and with him, some of whom are still alive today, considerably older than I am most often. The man in the streets, wherever I went, weather it was a member of the armed forces, weather it was a policeman, weather it was somebody who owned a shop, weather it was a newspaper man, weather it was people working in the hotels, it didn’t matter, they all said the same thing to me, “Thank you, thank you so much for coming to our country and making for the first time a film about our great leader. We are profoundly grateful.”
So the film has been shown theatrical in Pakistan for what is now three months. Virtually full houses both in English and in Urdu. Which indecently Jinnah did not speak very well. And it was very successful. It has also been shown in various festivals all over the world. It has had the most wonderful reviews wherever it has been seen. In the western world as well as the eastern world. At the London Film Festival and at the Festival in New York, it was in the L.A Times and other American Papers. And the reviews here for me have been the best I’ve ever had in my life. So , of course, that is immensely important to me, but simply as an actor.
I tried to create a true picture. I certainly did resemble him physically. I tried, by looking at old reels to recreate the way he walks, the way he gestures, the way he spoke. There are tapes of his voice. He had absolutely no accent. He spoke English the way I do which is accordingly the way I spoke in the film.
One of the interesting things I was told was that he used to make speeches to about a hundred thousand people, but his command of Urdu was not all that good, and he used to make speeches to a hundred thousand people, practically none of whom understood English at all. It didn’t seem to make the slightest difference.
When you talk about the word, ‘charisma’ it’s a word much overused. This was one man who had an amazing and extraordinary charisma, personality, presence, power. And despite the fact that they may not have understood what he was saying, they did seem to know what he was talking about.
So, it’s a film of which we are all extremely proud. It should be, it deserves to be seen. And as I explained before, for me as an actor, it’s the greatest responsibility I have very had as an actor, and the best part, I think, I have ever had as an actor, and probably, in so far as I am any judge, the best performance I have ever given.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Aisha Sarwari: Can you tell us about how the props helped. The fact that you had a cigar in some of the scenes. Was that better for your performance?
Now there are actual pictures of Jinnah playing billiards, or pool or whatever it was there were playing. Would have been presumably English billiards. There are actually photographs of him at the Billiard table about to strike the ball with his plume and he is smoking a cigar. Or he has a cigar in his hands. So that’s why I did smoke, occasionally a smoke or a cigarette, at the breakfast scene with my daughter when she comes to tell me that she is going to marry a Parsee, and I disapprove strongly, which is rather ironic in the view of the fact that Jinnah himself married a Parsee. But any scene that you see when I was smoking is historically accurate.
Aisha Sarwari: As you mentioned a lot of Pakistanis have a lot of reverence for Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam -
Christopher Lee: Oh yes.
Aisha Sarwari: How was your reaction generally to, I know you said it was a challenge, what did you feel when people came up to you and thanked you, like you said?
Christopher lee: I felt that it was a great honor. I felt a great sense of humility and as a western Christian playing an Asian Muslim, it would have been perfectly understandable for people to have objected, and some did. There was one particular individual who insisted that I should be arrested and deported, but that was thrown out by the courts.
That is why I say its such a great responsibility. When people came up to me an expressed their gratitude, and ninety nine point nine percent did, it gave me a wonderful feeling of, I suppose satisfaction. It was a great privilege, it was a great honor, for them to say this to me, because they meant every word of it otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered.
Aisha Sarwari: What made you choose the film, what made you actually sign up for it?
Christopher Lee: Of course, because of the age I am now. I am eighty years old. I was well aware of Jinnah, just as I was well aware of Gandhi. Although Gandhi got much more publicity, over the years. I was well aware of Jinnah as a person, as a politician, as a leader. His name is by no means an estranged name to me. it was a name of which I was very familiar because of the news reels and the newspapers. And indeed in 1947, I was twenty five years old and I had come out of five years of war in 1946. And I had been with Indian troops during the war, because everyone was Indian then before partition. Many of them being Muslims and many being Hindus and Many being Sikhs.
So it wasn’t a strange experience for me at all, I felt perfectly comfortable playing the part. there were Pakistani actors in the film, who were very kind to me and we had a very distinguished actor in the film, Shashi Kapur, and it was a great gathering of people: Pakistani, British and Indian. And that is why the results were so encouraging. And that is why I must repeat, the film should be seen.
I don’t know why people are unwilling to show it theatrically. I think this will happen eventually. It might be on PBS, it might be on Network. Or it might be shown in the cinemas, the theaters, and it might, it should be shown on DVD. It has already been shown on Sky Satellite in this country for over a year. So it has been getting a showing, but not the over all world wide showing it should have.
People seem to be, perhaps the word is nervous of showing it. There are certain misconceptions in the world that have certainly not been helped by the acts of terrorism, notably of course on September the eleventh. Which were committed by Muslims. So there is this misconception, and it is a misconception, that all Muslims are the same. Which of course they are not.
It may be that the theater owners of the distributors are unwilling, or anxious, about showing this film, incase people say, ‘how can you show a film like this when we see what is happening in the whole world as a result of the acts of some Muslims?’ You cannot possibly apply the adjective ‘terrorist’, or ‘fundamentalist’. Oh no doubt are very sincere in everything they do, but you cannot possibly apply this to the vast majority of the Muslim peoples. Because it simply isn’t correct.
That is why this film should be seen, as I said this earlier, to give a true picture of the meaning of Islam and also to give a true picture of the founding of a Muslim state. Which was created for the right reasons. If you go to Pakistan, I don`t think there is a single place that you could go into, any shop, any restaurant, any building, any office where there isn`t either a photograph or a painting or a picture of the Quaid-e-Azam. Everywhere I went that was the case. He is much revered in Pakistan. He`s an almost god-like figure, certainly an icon, a legend and I think this film is very important because as I said earlier, majority of Pakistanis, are really not aware of what went on in his life, except that he did found the nation.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Aisha Sarwari: Tell us a little about The Quaid-e-Azam’s secular yearnings, especially the quote, you are free to go to your mosques and temples, (or any other place of worship), in this state of Pakistan and-
Christopher Lee: I think if you’ll see in the film. When he speaks to the Pakistan, there is a big speech that he gives to Pakistani leaders in which he says. I actually, did say it word for word in the film from this very famous speech. He said, you are all free. I am not saying word for word now because I can’t remember it all. But he did say very very clearly, you are, all of you, all of you, of any religion free to worship in your various churches, mosques, synagogues, and this, he said, I believe is extremely important. In other words he was advocating, and he did this publicly, was complete freedom, not only of press, but freedom of worship of all faiths.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Christopher Lee: Well, that again, tells you, because this is what he said himself, about how he felt, about not just Muslims but Hindus, and Christians, and Jews and Buddhists and every other religion you could think of. Freedom of worship, Freedom of worship, he said this again and again and again, in many words and I actually say this in a speech in the film
Aisha Sarwari: Doesn’t he also add that, “That has nothing to do with the business of the state” and he is also advocating a separation of Church and State, essentially?
Christopher Lee: That is quiet true, in other words he was saying, ‘the state is a state, we are a Muslim state but, you don’t have to be a Muslim to practice your own religion. You can do it anywhere with complete freedom, in a Muslim State’. I am not aware of that happening before anywhere in History.
Aisha Sarwari: How was Richard Lintern’s character for you. A lot of people I spoke to said, you should have also played that role if some make up could have made you-
Christopher Lee: No that would have been impossible. Richard Lintern gave a very good performance as the young Jinnah. There is a scene where the two meet. Richard Lintern was extremely good as the young Jinnah. If you remember the photographs. If you go back to the days of Jinnah’s youth, you’ll see that he has a moustache which of course I don’t have. And that gradually he ceases to have a mustache.
But here is a story of a man who even, as a young man. Probably as a result of him being a barrister here in London at Lincolns Inn, and he spent many years in Britain, became completely fluent in the English Language. And even in those days, when he was a young man, he was absolutely determined that one day, that he would translate his beliefs into reality. And I think Richard Lintern puts that across extremely well.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH
I think one of the most moving scenes in the film is when his wife dies. I think that is extremely significant. Because of course he didn’t marry again. I couldn’t have played the young Jinnah. I was too old when I did the film in 1997. I was seventy five. Now, no amount of make up was going to change you from being seventy five to somebody in your thirties. That would have been impossible and very unbelievable as well. You have to have, as it is in many films, the young and the old, and I think this worked very well.
Aisha Sarwari: Tell us about your life as an actor and what is the role of an actor in today’s world.
I have been an actor for fifty six years and I have been involved in something like two hundred and fifty -- two hundred and sixty productions. Either as films or TV films. And the role of an actor is to present characters and people, both imagined and factual, historical to an audience out there. In this particular instance what we are telling is the truth.
Of course there is this sequence of this surrealistic trial. When Jinnah the barrister is in essence the prosecuting council against Mountbaten. Now this is based on the truth because the witnesses who come forward are telling the truth. Commander of the army who did not support him as to admit this on the witness stand. Radcliff has to admit that the line, the boundary line was changed by Mountbatten’s orders, and Loard Ismay also confirm this.
And that Mountbatten brought the date forward of partition for personal reasons.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
So, that trial was in a sense trying to establish the truth over what really happened at that time, with regards to not only Jinnah, but Gandhi and Nehru and the Mountbattens.
My role as an actor is to give the best performance that I can give in anything I do. To be convincing. To at times surprise the audience. To do something you don’t normally expect. But basically to create people. That is the vocation of any actor who is a real professional and who really cares about what he’s doing.
Now what was the second part of your question?
Aisha Sarwari: The role of the actor in the context of the whole world?
Christopher Lee: If you are making a contemporary it has to be accurate. If you are making a historical story, presenting a historical story, it has to be even more accurate. Because obviously sometimes you go back centuries. And sometimes it is extremely difficult because you get differing information.
When talking about comparatively recent history of Jinnah, fifty five years ago. Therefore at this particular instance, it has to be totally honest and totally truthful. Because it is the modern era.
Aisha Sarwari: What do you think of Pakistan today?
Christopher Lee: You are not going to get me in a political conversation, because I am not qualified to discuss it. At the present moment there is conflict between India and Pakistan as there has been for many many years, as I think everybody knows. Which I think is a great tragedy. Apart form the religious differences, they are basically the same people.
Right now we have a military government in Pakistan, with enormous responsibilities and great problems. And I think the President General Pervez Musharraf is doing the best he can. But it’s very difficult for him. I think that the same thing applies to the Indians. They are trying to solve the problem, the eternal problem which Jinnnah refers to, in this trial that takes place in the film, as, ‘this mess about Kashmir’.
I have no idea how this will be solved. I am not a politician. I am not a military man. I only hope it will be solved and the two countries will find complete peace. But this is something that is a hope as far as I am concerned. And the hope of many millions of people all around the world. Because it is a very very tense situation.
I think that the Quaid-e-Azam, Jinnah himself was to come back today, I think he would be very dismayed at what is taking place. Because it is something that he never envisaged, and never thought would happen. Although at the time of partition there was a great deal of death.
Aisha Sarwari: Christopher Lee, I want to thank you for your time and your insight. Again, as a Pakistani and on behalf of Pakistan News service I want to thank you for portraying our leader so well.
Christopher Lee: Not at all. I am glad to have had the opportunity to talk to you. And I am glad that you have had the opportunity to hear exactly what I mean, how I feel and what I am saying. Because, one is so often misrepresented in the press. And I am now able to give you my own, I have to emphasize this, my personal opinion. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so.
__________________
``You are free, you are free to go to your mosques, you are free to go to your temples in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``
M A Jinnah ( founder of Pakistan, 47)
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Jan 6, 2002 01:12 am
Alas! Jealousy has many faces...:
#3
``And of course that vastly over-rated shyster Jinnah (a 2-bit lawyer then fast fading into irrelevance)``
Irrelevance:
This is a discussion on a UK Based NON-PAKISTANI, NON-SOUTH ASIAN Message board with predominantly Non-Pakistani population (Aisha and the Greywolf are the only Pakistanis)
to Quote Mr.Charles Propelec, a regular every day canadian for example :
``The more I learn about this man, the more I want to learn``
Admin
Webmaster
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1011
Extensive interview on Jinnah
Last Saturday Mr Lee did an interview on “Jinnah” for Versa, a TV, Radio and Film major at San Jose, California.
This is the first ever interview he gives on the subject for the USA media. The interview was conducted by Aisha Fayyazi, the interview can be listen to at Versa in Real Media. Premium Members can watch the interview on Mpeg4 video, which includes 15 more minutes of extended post-interview commentary at CL WebTV.
``That is why this film should be seen. As I said this earlier, to give a true picture of the meaning of Islam and also to give a true picture of the founding of a Muslim state. Which was created for the right reasons. If you go to Pakistan, I don`t think there is a single place you could go into, any shop, any restaurant, any building, any office where there isn`t either a photograph or a painting or a picture of the Quaid-e-Azam. Everywhere I went that was the case. He is much revered in Pakistan. He`s an almost god-like figure, certainly an icon, a legend and I think this film is very important...``
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JinnahFilm.com Mr Lee`s best film, Help with its release
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09-07-2002 21:05
Nilredwen
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Registered: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 29
Very informative
I didn`t expect to sit and listen to the whole half hour interview at one sitting but I found it so fascinating I couldn`t tear myself away. The more I hear about the man Jinnah and the movie the more I hope that someday I shall have the opportunity to see this film. I particularily found it heartening to hear the quote from Jinnah where he advocated for complete freedom of religion in Pakistan. That was very forward thinking of him and clearly got him in trouble with some of the extremists!
I also was very interested when they discussed the Kashmir conflict`s roots. This is such an important and hot issue today and it is important to seek a better understanding of how the troubles arose. I definitely learned some new facts from the movie clip of the trial. More people should be exposed to this and be enlightened!
Finally I found Mr. Lee`s last comments on how he feels that it is important for an actor to portray a historical figure as realistically and close to reality as possible. This made me wonder what Mr. Lee thinks of such movies as ``A Beautiful Mind`` which was accused by many people of bending the truth a lot about the main character and changing things about. Does he disapprove of taking such liberties then in other films? Or only in the case of films about such major historical/national figures as Jinnah?
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10-07-2002 03:11
Charles
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 596
Good interview
Impressive to hear Mr. Lee giving his personal opinions on both Jinnah the man and Jinnah the film. Timing couldn`t be better for me personally, as I spent a couple hours last night watching the documentary Jinnah: The Making of Pakistan on the Canadian History channel. It is truly amazing what Mr. Jinnah was able to accomplish, and based on what I`ve both read and seen, I`d say that much of that achievement is due solely to Mr. Jinnah`s personality and sheer force of will. Hearing Mr. Lee`s views added an interesting perspective on this most fascinating of men - Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
I noted in the interview that Mr. Lee mentioned that friends and family of Mr. Jinnah were pleased with his performance, which makes me wonder if Mr. Lee had on any occasion ever met with either Dina Wadia or her son Nusli Wadia? If so, is there any information available from Mr. Lee regarding the meeting or their comments?
The more I learn about this man, the more I want to learn!
Cheers!
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10-07-2002 03:59
Skorpionn
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Registered: May 2002
Location: Lompoc, California
Posts: 113
Mr. Eloquence
Once again, an eloquent and intelligent discussion of the film by Mr. Lee. It`s fascinating how he immersed himself so deeply into the history of this man in order to ``honor`` the role he played in the film. There`s so much other actors/actresses could learn from his examples and dedication - but fame seems to be their #1 concern instead of truly doing their job correctly as an ``actor.`` I`m anticipating watching it.
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10-07-2002 04:09
Greywolf
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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Lahore Pakistan
Posts: 13
As a Pakistani ....
As a Pakistani, I am most grateful to all of you for this amazing discussion... and to Mr. Lee for campaigning so fervently for this movie... Patrick French, the British Historian, once commented that Mohammed Ali Jinnah was the most under-rated statesman of the 20th century... whose achievements deserve a lot more than that which has been accorded to him...
His image was deliberately distorted by Mountbatten who hated Jinnah for denying him the opportunity of being Pakistan`s first Governor General and then the otherwise brilliant movie Gandhi whose director Attenborough was heavily influenced by Mountbatten... I am not aware of Mr.Lee`s meeting with Mr.Wadia, though when I was living in US for College .. I was made aware of the fact that Mr. Jinnah`s daughter Dina currently resides on Manhattan`s Park Avenue... She is pretty reclusive so I couldn`t imagine meeting her...
Mohammed Ali Jinnah stood for Democracy, complete freedom of religion, rule of law and equal rights for all... sadly Pakistan has not always honored the true creed of this man... It is true that Jinnah`s picture is often put up in every building in Pakistan.. but Pakistanis have ignored Mr.Jinnah`s true beliefs, ideals... today Pakistan is nothing like Mr.Jinnah wanted it to be... More important than introducing Mr. Jinnah to world at large, THIS MOVIE WILL PLAY AN IMPORTANT PART IN MAKING PAKISTANIS REALIZE THE TRUE CREED OF THEIR FOUNDING FATHER....
And as a Pakistani, I THANK MR.LEE for this...
__________________
You are FREE. You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.
Jinnah 11th August 1947
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10-07-2002 07:10
mpapadakis
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Registered: May 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 53
Extraordinary Insight...
I for one cannot wait to see this film hopefully it will be released before to long.
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10-07-2002 08:51
Jurious
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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 156
Excellent film
I`m one of the fortunate people who has seen Jinnah, and I think that it`s a wonderful film. To be honest, I couldn`t believe that there was so much I didn`t know about Pakistan and its history, and it taught me alot.
I`m ashamed that stuff like this isn`t taught to us in schools - we concentrate quite selfishly on our own history, or, if not our own, then the history of close European countries or of the Americans - never of Asia or Africa. I`m not saying that we shouldn`t know about our own countires - I just think we need to know a little more about the rest of the world, and of people like Jinnah, whom, before the film, I had never even heard of! Yet he did so much!
Infact, so inspiring did I find the movie - with much thanks to Mr.Lee`s wonderful performance, and of the hard work put into the film by the entire cast and crew - that I wanted to find out more - hence why I may be doing some history coursework on the conflicts surrounding the formation of Pakistan, and everything. I have already done much more research on the subject, and have found it an incredibly engaging topic.
It`s great to see Mr.Lee doing an interview about it, though I haven`t seen it myself yet. I think he did very well in the role, and he worked very hard to make his role close to the real man, Jinnah. I only hope that people who haven`t yet seen this film do get the chance to some day in the near future.
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10-07-2002 17:47
Joakim
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Posts: 305
Jinnah
This is the best film Mr Lee has done during the 90`s.
This is one of the best interviews I`ve ever heard on Jinnah. It`s wonderful that it`s for an American broadcast. I don`t think you can be more specific than Mr Lee is in the interview. This film should be seen.
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11-07-2002 20:56
farre
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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 160
MPEG-4
Juan,
Has the MPEG-4 version of Versa been posted? I don`t see it listed in the CL Web TV section yet...
Best,
John F
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11-07-2002 21:56
Greywolf
Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Lahore Pakistan
Posts: 13
Video of the Interview
I doubt that there is a video of the interview... because I know Aisha Fayyazi personally, and most of her interviews are conducted over the phone...
By the way, can anyone give the name of the company/group which is preventing `Jinnah``s release on DVD/Home Video?? Because I am writing a letter of protest to the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, and will also have a letter of protest read out in the Elected legislature of Pakistan, once that is in session after the October elections....
-YLH
__________________
You are FREE. You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.
Jinnah 11th August 1947
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12-07-2002 08:25
Admin 2
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Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:
Has the MPEG-4 version of Versa been posted? I don`t see it listed in the CL Web TV section yet...
No, it hasn`t been posted yet. My brother is away until Sunday.
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12-07-2002 14:26
Alfonso
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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Chicago, USA
Posts: 642
Wealth of information
Mr. Lee`s interview with Ms. Fayyazi was fascinating and informative. But, even more fascinating still are some of the links at the ``Versa`` website. There one can find a wealth of information (of varying points of view from Muslim to Marxist) on Pakistan`s history, culture, and social-economic problems and development.
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Alfonso
``With callous Science let the Horde collide,
The Mongols with the massed machines.``
-- Aleksandr Blok, The Scythians.
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12-07-2002 18:05
Admin 2
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The complete video interview is now at CL WebTV. One file, all connections.
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13-07-2002 16:02
aisha
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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 1
Transcript of interview
I am pasting the transcript of the interview, I still have to update it on the website. Since I did the interview we have got more than half a million hits on the site and I have got a couple of emails, acknowledging how good a job Mr. Lee did.
-Aisha
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Aisha Sarwari: Thank you for giving us your precious time.
Christopher Lee: Not at all
Aisha Sarwari: We are more interested in finding out form you about the film, JINNAH. And briefly before we get into the detailed questions, tell us how an independent film like JINNAH compare to other big hits like, LORD OF THE RINGS?
Christopher Lee: You can’t compare, one film with another at all. And you have to remember that JINNAH is a very low budget picture, although it looks like a very high budget picture. But you can’t possibly compare a film which is about basically one individual and the people around him, who created a nation, with a film like the LORD OF THE RINGS, which is a great epic. In fact it’s three films, and its not basically just about one person. Certainly, not about the founder of a modern nation.
Aisha Sarwari: So what is your perception now about Jinnah? Did it change significantly? Did you know about him when you chose the movie?
Christopher Lee: I think that the film JINNAH is an extremely important film, for many reasons and it should be seen now. The reasons, actually there are quiet a few of them. One, it shows the true meaning of Islam. Islam means submission to the will of God. It does not mean terrorism or fundamentalism. Secondly, it shows the foundation of a Muslim state. How it came into being and how the founder of that nation achieved this. And again, it has nothing to do with all the terrible things that are happening in the rest of the world. It’s the story of a true Muslim and the people around him who decided that the Muslims of India needed a country of their own. There are several million Muslims still living in India, but of course Pakistan was created in 1947. Recorded (inaudible) partition of India and what became Pakistan.
The man responsible for this, basically it was one man, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, known of course Pakistan as the Quaid-e-Azam. Which means, ‘a great leader.’ He was a brilliant man with great intellect, great determination, iron will, honest, a man with total integrity. And he believed implicitly in what he was doing and he was determined that it would be for the good for the Muslim population to have their own country. So the story is not just about the creation of a state. As it is with us today. It is about one man and what he achieved, not just as a political leader, but as a father, as a brother and as a husband.
Now a lot of this information is comparatively unknown to the vast majority of the people in Pakistan today and many hundreds and millions of Muslims all over the world. He did single-handedly, well, almost single-handedly, so obviously because he had very fine advisers, determined and dedicated people around him. He almost single-handedly did create this nation. And he was a dying man and he knew it. And this is quiet clear in the film. Because he has a meeting with a doctor. He died of cancer of the lungs. He was a chain smoker and many of the photographs you see of him, he will have a cigarette or a pipe or a cigar in his hands. Unless of course it was an official function and he was making a speech or something like that. There is no doubt that it probably hastened his death. But he knew it. He knew that he was dying. Which makes it even more remarkable that he was able to keep going. So this is in essence the story of a nation.
For me as an actor, its certainly the most important part I have ever played. Because the responsibility on my shoulders was immense. I went to the country he founded and I was there for ten weeks, playing the leader of the nation, the creator of the nation, in the country he created, in front of his own people, and I can only say that with the exception of one newspaper that attacked us virtually everyday we received the gratitude of virtually everybody we spoke to: members of his family, people who knew him, people who worked for him and with him, some of whom are still alive today, considerably older than I am most often. The man in the streets, wherever I went, weather it was a member of the armed forces, weather it was a policeman, weather it was somebody who owned a shop, weather it was a newspaper man, weather it was people working in the hotels, it didn’t matter, they all said the same thing to me, “Thank you, thank you so much for coming to our country and making for the first time a film about our great leader. We are profoundly grateful.”
So the film has been shown theatrical in Pakistan for what is now three months. Virtually full houses both in English and in Urdu. Which indecently Jinnah did not speak very well. And it was very successful. It has also been shown in various festivals all over the world. It has had the most wonderful reviews wherever it has been seen. In the western world as well as the eastern world. At the London Film Festival and at the Festival in New York, it was in the L.A Times and other American Papers. And the reviews here for me have been the best I’ve ever had in my life. So , of course, that is immensely important to me, but simply as an actor.
I tried to create a true picture. I certainly did resemble him physically. I tried, by looking at old reels to recreate the way he walks, the way he gestures, the way he spoke. There are tapes of his voice. He had absolutely no accent. He spoke English the way I do which is accordingly the way I spoke in the film.
One of the interesting things I was told was that he used to make speeches to about a hundred thousand people, but his command of Urdu was not all that good, and he used to make speeches to a hundred thousand people, practically none of whom understood English at all. It didn’t seem to make the slightest difference.
When you talk about the word, ‘charisma’ it’s a word much overused. This was one man who had an amazing and extraordinary charisma, personality, presence, power. And despite the fact that they may not have understood what he was saying, they did seem to know what he was talking about.
So, it’s a film of which we are all extremely proud. It should be, it deserves to be seen. And as I explained before, for me as an actor, it’s the greatest responsibility I have very had as an actor, and the best part, I think, I have ever had as an actor, and probably, in so far as I am any judge, the best performance I have ever given.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Aisha Sarwari: Can you tell us about how the props helped. The fact that you had a cigar in some of the scenes. Was that better for your performance?
Now there are actual pictures of Jinnah playing billiards, or pool or whatever it was there were playing. Would have been presumably English billiards. There are actually photographs of him at the Billiard table about to strike the ball with his plume and he is smoking a cigar. Or he has a cigar in his hands. So that’s why I did smoke, occasionally a smoke or a cigarette, at the breakfast scene with my daughter when she comes to tell me that she is going to marry a Parsee, and I disapprove strongly, which is rather ironic in the view of the fact that Jinnah himself married a Parsee. But any scene that you see when I was smoking is historically accurate.
Aisha Sarwari: As you mentioned a lot of Pakistanis have a lot of reverence for Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam -
Christopher Lee: Oh yes.
Aisha Sarwari: How was your reaction generally to, I know you said it was a challenge, what did you feel when people came up to you and thanked you, like you said?
Christopher lee: I felt that it was a great honor. I felt a great sense of humility and as a western Christian playing an Asian Muslim, it would have been perfectly understandable for people to have objected, and some did. There was one particular individual who insisted that I should be arrested and deported, but that was thrown out by the courts.
That is why I say its such a great responsibility. When people came up to me an expressed their gratitude, and ninety nine point nine percent did, it gave me a wonderful feeling of, I suppose satisfaction. It was a great privilege, it was a great honor, for them to say this to me, because they meant every word of it otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered.
Aisha Sarwari: What made you choose the film, what made you actually sign up for it?
Christopher Lee: Of course, because of the age I am now. I am eighty years old. I was well aware of Jinnah, just as I was well aware of Gandhi. Although Gandhi got much more publicity, over the years. I was well aware of Jinnah as a person, as a politician, as a leader. His name is by no means an estranged name to me. it was a name of which I was very familiar because of the news reels and the newspapers. And indeed in 1947, I was twenty five years old and I had come out of five years of war in 1946. And I had been with Indian troops during the war, because everyone was Indian then before partition. Many of them being Muslims and many being Hindus and Many being Sikhs.
So it wasn’t a strange experience for me at all, I felt perfectly comfortable playing the part. there were Pakistani actors in the film, who were very kind to me and we had a very distinguished actor in the film, Shashi Kapur, and it was a great gathering of people: Pakistani, British and Indian. And that is why the results were so encouraging. And that is why I must repeat, the film should be seen.
I don’t know why people are unwilling to show it theatrically. I think this will happen eventually. It might be on PBS, it might be on Network. Or it might be shown in the cinemas, the theaters, and it might, it should be shown on DVD. It has already been shown on Sky Satellite in this country for over a year. So it has been getting a showing, but not the over all world wide showing it should have.
People seem to be, perhaps the word is nervous of showing it. There are certain misconceptions in the world that have certainly not been helped by the acts of terrorism, notably of course on September the eleventh. Which were committed by Muslims. So there is this misconception, and it is a misconception, that all Muslims are the same. Which of course they are not.
It may be that the theater owners of the distributors are unwilling, or anxious, about showing this film, incase people say, ‘how can you show a film like this when we see what is happening in the whole world as a result of the acts of some Muslims?’ You cannot possibly apply the adjective ‘terrorist’, or ‘fundamentalist’. Oh no doubt are very sincere in everything they do, but you cannot possibly apply this to the vast majority of the Muslim peoples. Because it simply isn’t correct.
That is why this film should be seen, as I said this earlier, to give a true picture of the meaning of Islam and also to give a true picture of the founding of a Muslim state. Which was created for the right reasons. If you go to Pakistan, I don`t think there is a single place that you could go into, any shop, any restaurant, any building, any office where there isn`t either a photograph or a painting or a picture of the Quaid-e-Azam. Everywhere I went that was the case. He is much revered in Pakistan. He`s an almost god-like figure, certainly an icon, a legend and I think this film is very important because as I said earlier, majority of Pakistanis, are really not aware of what went on in his life, except that he did found the nation.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Aisha Sarwari: Tell us a little about The Quaid-e-Azam’s secular yearnings, especially the quote, you are free to go to your mosques and temples, (or any other place of worship), in this state of Pakistan and-
Christopher Lee: I think if you’ll see in the film. When he speaks to the Pakistan, there is a big speech that he gives to Pakistani leaders in which he says. I actually, did say it word for word in the film from this very famous speech. He said, you are all free. I am not saying word for word now because I can’t remember it all. But he did say very very clearly, you are, all of you, all of you, of any religion free to worship in your various churches, mosques, synagogues, and this, he said, I believe is extremely important. In other words he was advocating, and he did this publicly, was complete freedom, not only of press, but freedom of worship of all faiths.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
Christopher Lee: Well, that again, tells you, because this is what he said himself, about how he felt, about not just Muslims but Hindus, and Christians, and Jews and Buddhists and every other religion you could think of. Freedom of worship, Freedom of worship, he said this again and again and again, in many words and I actually say this in a speech in the film
Aisha Sarwari: Doesn’t he also add that, “That has nothing to do with the business of the state” and he is also advocating a separation of Church and State, essentially?
Christopher Lee: That is quiet true, in other words he was saying, ‘the state is a state, we are a Muslim state but, you don’t have to be a Muslim to practice your own religion. You can do it anywhere with complete freedom, in a Muslim State’. I am not aware of that happening before anywhere in History.
Aisha Sarwari: How was Richard Lintern’s character for you. A lot of people I spoke to said, you should have also played that role if some make up could have made you-
Christopher Lee: No that would have been impossible. Richard Lintern gave a very good performance as the young Jinnah. There is a scene where the two meet. Richard Lintern was extremely good as the young Jinnah. If you remember the photographs. If you go back to the days of Jinnah’s youth, you’ll see that he has a moustache which of course I don’t have. And that gradually he ceases to have a mustache.
But here is a story of a man who even, as a young man. Probably as a result of him being a barrister here in London at Lincolns Inn, and he spent many years in Britain, became completely fluent in the English Language. And even in those days, when he was a young man, he was absolutely determined that one day, that he would translate his beliefs into reality. And I think Richard Lintern puts that across extremely well.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH
I think one of the most moving scenes in the film is when his wife dies. I think that is extremely significant. Because of course he didn’t marry again. I couldn’t have played the young Jinnah. I was too old when I did the film in 1997. I was seventy five. Now, no amount of make up was going to change you from being seventy five to somebody in your thirties. That would have been impossible and very unbelievable as well. You have to have, as it is in many films, the young and the old, and I think this worked very well.
Aisha Sarwari: Tell us about your life as an actor and what is the role of an actor in today’s world.
I have been an actor for fifty six years and I have been involved in something like two hundred and fifty -- two hundred and sixty productions. Either as films or TV films. And the role of an actor is to present characters and people, both imagined and factual, historical to an audience out there. In this particular instance what we are telling is the truth.
Of course there is this sequence of this surrealistic trial. When Jinnah the barrister is in essence the prosecuting council against Mountbaten. Now this is based on the truth because the witnesses who come forward are telling the truth. Commander of the army who did not support him as to admit this on the witness stand. Radcliff has to admit that the line, the boundary line was changed by Mountbatten’s orders, and Loard Ismay also confirm this.
And that Mountbatten brought the date forward of partition for personal reasons.
SOUND BITE FROM JINNAH THE MOVIE
So, that trial was in a sense trying to establish the truth over what really happened at that time, with regards to not only Jinnah, but Gandhi and Nehru and the Mountbattens.
My role as an actor is to give the best performance that I can give in anything I do. To be convincing. To at times surprise the audience. To do something you don’t normally expect. But basically to create people. That is the vocation of any actor who is a real professional and who really cares about what he’s doing.
Now what was the second part of your question?
Aisha Sarwari: The role of the actor in the context of the whole world?
Christopher Lee: If you are making a contemporary it has to be accurate. If you are making a historical story, presenting a historical story, it has to be even more accurate. Because obviously sometimes you go back centuries. And sometimes it is extremely difficult because you get differing information.
When talking about comparatively recent history of Jinnah, fifty five years ago. Therefore at this particular instance, it has to be totally honest and totally truthful. Because it is the modern era.
Aisha Sarwari: What do you think of Pakistan today?
Christopher Lee: You are not going to get me in a political conversation, because I am not qualified to discuss it. At the present moment there is conflict between India and Pakistan as there has been for many many years, as I think everybody knows. Which I think is a great tragedy. Apart form the religious differences, they are basically the same people.
Right now we have a military government in Pakistan, with enormous responsibilities and great problems. And I think the President General Pervez Musharraf is doing the best he can. But it’s very difficult for him. I think that the same thing applies to the Indians. They are trying to solve the problem, the eternal problem which Jinnnah refers to, in this trial that takes place in the film, as, ‘this mess about Kashmir’.
I have no idea how this will be solved. I am not a politician. I am not a military man. I only hope it will be solved and the two countries will find complete peace. But this is something that is a hope as far as I am concerned. And the hope of many millions of people all around the world. Because it is a very very tense situation.
I think that the Quaid-e-Azam, Jinnah himself was to come back today, I think he would be very dismayed at what is taking place. Because it is something that he never envisaged, and never thought would happen. Although at the time of partition there was a great deal of death.
Aisha Sarwari: Christopher Lee, I want to thank you for your time and your insight. Again, as a Pakistani and on behalf of Pakistan News service I want to thank you for portraying our leader so well.
Christopher Lee: Not at all. I am glad to have had the opportunity to talk to you. And I am glad that you have had the opportunity to hear exactly what I mean, how I feel and what I am saying. Because, one is so often misrepresented in the press. And I am now able to give you my own, I have to emphasize this, my personal opinion. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so.
__________________
``You are free, you are free to go to your mosques, you are free to go to your temples in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``
M A Jinnah ( founder of Pakistan, 47)
The Girl Next Door
``A `victory` gone sour
By Eric Margolis
According to a secret US government report revealed last week by the `New York Times,` the US invasion of Afghanistan not only `failed to diminish the threat to the United States,` but actually complicated the US counter-terrorism campaign by dispersing its radical foes across the Muslim World.
The small, tightly-knit leadership of Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda has been succeeded by a group of younger militants who have formed ad hoc alliances with other anti-US groups from Morocco to Indonesia. These groups now pose the most serious danger to the United States and will remain a potent threat for years to come.
This dismaying report confirms what this writer has been saying in his columns and on CNN since 9/11. A full-scale military invasion of Afghanistan would prove futile; the correct response was intelligence and police work, not brute force.
Al-Qaeda`s numbers were grossly exaggerated by the Bush administration and US media. Hard-core Qaeda members never numbered more than 200-300. Claims that there were 5,000-20,000 Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan were nonsense. These wild exaggeration came from lumping Taliban tribal warriors with some 5,000 Islamic resistance fighters from Kashmir, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, the Philippines and Chinese-ruled Eastern Turkestan, none of whom were part of al Qaeda. (www.dawn.com/2002/06/27/op.htm#2)
I think Bush may have overdone it with his, ``With us or against us`` theme. He may soon find out that many have decided to be against him. And that it is very very difficult to track down militants and terrorists, one by one. It is about impossible.
Bush needs to stop dilly-dallying on Palestine. The solution isn`t to attack Iraq, and create more militant enemies for the USA. The solution is come up with a just resolution of the Palestinian problem. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby in the US is so strong that it will never let Bush do what is in the US`s better interest, if it conflicts with Israel`s better interest.
While much of the Arab hatred of the US is not justified, even the part that is justified is more due to Israel related issues, than due to any serious grudge the Arabs have against the USA.
And lastly, I hope the world doesn`t run away from Afghanistan again, like it did in 90. If it does, then we will all be back to square one.
Brute force is not going to win this battle for the USA. It needs to get the core imbalances solved. The Donald Rumsfeld school of thought may work in the short term, but the Powell school of thought is the only long term solution.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Dec 23, 2001 03:35 pm
Interesting take by a person who knows the area, better than perhaps anyone in North America:``A `victory` gone sour
By Eric Margolis
According to a secret US government report revealed last week by the `New York Times,` the US invasion of Afghanistan not only `failed to diminish the threat to the United States,` but actually complicated the US counter-terrorism campaign by dispersing its radical foes across the Muslim World.
The small, tightly-knit leadership of Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda has been succeeded by a group of younger militants who have formed ad hoc alliances with other anti-US groups from Morocco to Indonesia. These groups now pose the most serious danger to the United States and will remain a potent threat for years to come.
This dismaying report confirms what this writer has been saying in his columns and on CNN since 9/11. A full-scale military invasion of Afghanistan would prove futile; the correct response was intelligence and police work, not brute force.
Al-Qaeda`s numbers were grossly exaggerated by the Bush administration and US media. Hard-core Qaeda members never numbered more than 200-300. Claims that there were 5,000-20,000 Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan were nonsense. These wild exaggeration came from lumping Taliban tribal warriors with some 5,000 Islamic resistance fighters from Kashmir, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, the Philippines and Chinese-ruled Eastern Turkestan, none of whom were part of al Qaeda. (www.dawn.com/2002/06/27/op.htm#2)
I think Bush may have overdone it with his, ``With us or against us`` theme. He may soon find out that many have decided to be against him. And that it is very very difficult to track down militants and terrorists, one by one. It is about impossible.
Bush needs to stop dilly-dallying on Palestine. The solution isn`t to attack Iraq, and create more militant enemies for the USA. The solution is come up with a just resolution of the Palestinian problem. Unfortunately, the Israeli lobby in the US is so strong that it will never let Bush do what is in the US`s better interest, if it conflicts with Israel`s better interest.
While much of the Arab hatred of the US is not justified, even the part that is justified is more due to Israel related issues, than due to any serious grudge the Arabs have against the USA.
And lastly, I hope the world doesn`t run away from Afghanistan again, like it did in 90. If it does, then we will all be back to square one.
Brute force is not going to win this battle for the USA. It needs to get the core imbalances solved. The Donald Rumsfeld school of thought may work in the short term, but the Powell school of thought is the only long term solution.
The Girl Next Door
What the Bomb can do
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
(excerpts)
A large-scale nuclear war in South Asia would have terrible consequences.
An estimate of the numbers of deaths and injuries from nuclear attacks on ten major Indian and Pakistani cities has been made by transposing onto each city the characteristics and consequences of the August 6, 1945, Hiroshima bombing with its mass fires, radiation sicknesses, severe burns, deaths in buildings collapsed by the shock wave, hurricane-force winds propelling missiles through the air, and blindness.
Calculated to the nearest thousand, is the numbers of dead, severely injured, and slightly injured persons after a nuclear attack on the following five large Indian and five large Pakistani cities.
A total of 2.9 million deaths is predicted for these cities in India and Pakistan with an additional 1.5 million severely injured (figures are given in order of total population within five kilometres of Ground Zero: killed; severely injured; slightly injured; total immediate casualties):
Bangalore: 3,077,937; 314,000; 175,000, 411,000; 900,000.
Mumbai: 3,143,284; 477,000; 229,000; 477,000; 1,183,000.
Kolkata: 3,520,344; 357,000; 198,000; 466,000; 1,021,000.
Chennai: 3,252,628; 364,000; 196,000; 449,000; 1,009,000.
New Delhi: 1,638,744; 176,000; 94,000; 218,000; 488,000.
Faisalabad: 2,376,478; 336,000; 174,000; 374,000; 884,000.
Islamabad: 798,583; 154,000; 67,000; 130,000; 351,000.
Karachi: 1,962,458; 240,000; 127,000; 283,000; 650,000.
Lahore: 2,682,092; 258,000; 150,000; 354,000; 762,000.
Rawalpindi: 1,589,828; 184,000; 97,000; 221,000; 502,000.
These estimated predictions of casualties merely scratch the surface of what would actually transpire were both countries to use their nuclear arsenals against each other.
Key social and physical networks that make daily life possible would disappear: families and neighbourhoods would be devastated; factories, shops, communications, electricity and water systems demolished; hospitals and schools and offices destroyed; governments rendered totally non-functional; and the flood of refugees would carry the physical effects far beyond the cities.
Nothing, just nothing, would ever again be the same.
And, now in India and Pakistan, let us see how the unbalanced opinion makers help us.
Let us look at what is read in our press and the international press by the world leaders and decision makers who have an impact on both countries.
India`s Defence Minister George Fernandes, in an interview with the Hindustan Times, voiced his sentiments:
``We could take a strike, survive, and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished.`` (May 2002)
Indian Defence Secretary Yogendra Narain took things a step further in an interview with Outlook magazine:
``A surgical strike is the answer,`` he said. But if that failed to resolve things, he added, ``We must be prepared for total mutual destruction.`` (May 2002)
Pakistan`s former Chief of Army Staff, General Mirza Aslam Beg, in a public debate in Islamabad, declared:
``We can make a first strike, and a second strike, or even a third.`` The dreadful vision of nuclear war left him unmoved. ``You can die crossing the street, or you could die in a nuclear war. You`ve got to die someday anyway.`` (May 2002)
Former chief of Pakistan`s Inter Services Intelligence, now with political aspirations, retired Lt General Hameed Gul has declared that ``the moment India strikes, Pakistan will call for a jihad against India and invite Muslims from all over the world to sneak into India and wage attacks.
He added that Pakistan would also support separatist movements [in] India and might even bomb India`s high-tech centres. `If India attacks, then it`s come one, come all, it`s jihad`.`` (New York Times, June 2002)
``Hamid Nasir Chattha, a prominent politician, noted in a newspaper essay yesterday that Pakistan had spent a fortune acquiring a nuclear capability and suggested that as a result it would be almost a shame not to use it.
`If the use of nuclear is unavoidable for the survival of Pakistan, then it must be used with no hesitation`.`` (New York Times, June 2002)````
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Dec 23, 2001 11:01 am
An lonely antinuclea voice in the subcontunental wilderness of nuclear damaged cretins.What the Bomb can do
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
(excerpts)
A large-scale nuclear war in South Asia would have terrible consequences.
An estimate of the numbers of deaths and injuries from nuclear attacks on ten major Indian and Pakistani cities has been made by transposing onto each city the characteristics and consequences of the August 6, 1945, Hiroshima bombing with its mass fires, radiation sicknesses, severe burns, deaths in buildings collapsed by the shock wave, hurricane-force winds propelling missiles through the air, and blindness.
Calculated to the nearest thousand, is the numbers of dead, severely injured, and slightly injured persons after a nuclear attack on the following five large Indian and five large Pakistani cities.
A total of 2.9 million deaths is predicted for these cities in India and Pakistan with an additional 1.5 million severely injured (figures are given in order of total population within five kilometres of Ground Zero: killed; severely injured; slightly injured; total immediate casualties):
Bangalore: 3,077,937; 314,000; 175,000, 411,000; 900,000.
Mumbai: 3,143,284; 477,000; 229,000; 477,000; 1,183,000.
Kolkata: 3,520,344; 357,000; 198,000; 466,000; 1,021,000.
Chennai: 3,252,628; 364,000; 196,000; 449,000; 1,009,000.
New Delhi: 1,638,744; 176,000; 94,000; 218,000; 488,000.
Faisalabad: 2,376,478; 336,000; 174,000; 374,000; 884,000.
Islamabad: 798,583; 154,000; 67,000; 130,000; 351,000.
Karachi: 1,962,458; 240,000; 127,000; 283,000; 650,000.
Lahore: 2,682,092; 258,000; 150,000; 354,000; 762,000.
Rawalpindi: 1,589,828; 184,000; 97,000; 221,000; 502,000.
These estimated predictions of casualties merely scratch the surface of what would actually transpire were both countries to use their nuclear arsenals against each other.
Key social and physical networks that make daily life possible would disappear: families and neighbourhoods would be devastated; factories, shops, communications, electricity and water systems demolished; hospitals and schools and offices destroyed; governments rendered totally non-functional; and the flood of refugees would carry the physical effects far beyond the cities.
Nothing, just nothing, would ever again be the same.
And, now in India and Pakistan, let us see how the unbalanced opinion makers help us.
Let us look at what is read in our press and the international press by the world leaders and decision makers who have an impact on both countries.
India`s Defence Minister George Fernandes, in an interview with the Hindustan Times, voiced his sentiments:
``We could take a strike, survive, and then hit back. Pakistan would be finished.`` (May 2002)
Indian Defence Secretary Yogendra Narain took things a step further in an interview with Outlook magazine:
``A surgical strike is the answer,`` he said. But if that failed to resolve things, he added, ``We must be prepared for total mutual destruction.`` (May 2002)
Pakistan`s former Chief of Army Staff, General Mirza Aslam Beg, in a public debate in Islamabad, declared:
``We can make a first strike, and a second strike, or even a third.`` The dreadful vision of nuclear war left him unmoved. ``You can die crossing the street, or you could die in a nuclear war. You`ve got to die someday anyway.`` (May 2002)
Former chief of Pakistan`s Inter Services Intelligence, now with political aspirations, retired Lt General Hameed Gul has declared that ``the moment India strikes, Pakistan will call for a jihad against India and invite Muslims from all over the world to sneak into India and wage attacks.
He added that Pakistan would also support separatist movements [in] India and might even bomb India`s high-tech centres. `If India attacks, then it`s come one, come all, it`s jihad`.`` (New York Times, June 2002)
``Hamid Nasir Chattha, a prominent politician, noted in a newspaper essay yesterday that Pakistan had spent a fortune acquiring a nuclear capability and suggested that as a result it would be almost a shame not to use it.
`If the use of nuclear is unavoidable for the survival of Pakistan, then it must be used with no hesitation`.`` (New York Times, June 2002)````
When the Lights Hurt the Eyes
...fawad`s right...go to goa...you`ll LOVE it...party town of asia i tell you...if u like spicy seafood, you`ll love it even more...
re: fawad
...ibiza ain`t all that...too many brits on drugs...
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Nov 26, 2001 10:50 am
re: harpreet...fawad`s right...go to goa...you`ll LOVE it...party town of asia i tell you...if u like spicy seafood, you`ll love it even more...
re: fawad
...ibiza ain`t all that...too many brits on drugs...
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
These examples are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP. Automation of the factory floor is making manufacturing a knowledge and capital intensive task, with some crumbs like garments left over for a little while longer for the poor countries. The real money in the economy today (as it will be increasingly so tomorrow) is in services, and that that money will be made by people having the skills and education needed.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 19, 2001 11:43 am
Zeemax #160 You write ``For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt``These examples are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP. Automation of the factory floor is making manufacturing a knowledge and capital intensive task, with some crumbs like garments left over for a little while longer for the poor countries. The real money in the economy today (as it will be increasingly so tomorrow) is in services, and that that money will be made by people having the skills and education needed.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
Pakistanis have a deathwish. Anyone who wants the exact same people who have destroyed Pakistan back into power have a deathwish. A country, whose even educated people, cannot differentiate their heroes from their villians, is doomed.
The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 19, 2001 11:43 am
``Muslims do recognise but it`s because of lack of credibile & respected leadership over the Muslim world spectrum that they have failed to state the point. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was that leader``Pakistanis have a deathwish. Anyone who wants the exact same people who have destroyed Pakistan back into power have a deathwish. A country, whose even educated people, cannot differentiate their heroes from their villians, is doomed.
The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
Sure my hand is raised. It`s only that every board invariably turns to India/Pakistan bashing regardless of what the author is trying to say.
Reply #: 151 tahmed321
I take your point. So I retract my earlier statement. Although I`m too lazy for that extra click !
Reply #: 153 friend, Reply #: 156 SameerJB
The China example is a good one. Where else could you go to a restaurant on the Great Wall and served with days old rotten stinking fish, and when you reject it with horror, your taxi driver laps it up as he couldn`t afford even that! The Shanxi province alone is larger than Pakistan both in terms of population and area, and the centre for metallurgical industry, but largely the masses are little better off than animals and human life is cheap.
I subscribe to the worker nation argument. Globalization is essentially drawing a start line and asking everyone to run when the pistol is fired. However, the majority of nations are handicapped, while only a few are advantaged as these had entered the Industrial Era at the turn of the 19/20th century. That gives them a 100 year head start as no single thirld world nation in comparison can be said to have entered the Industrial Era since then (with the exception of Korea, but it was stopped in it`s tracks as well in 1997). How does one expect them to compete?
I believe it`s all about value-addition in goods & services. The developed nations have high value addition, very highly skilled workforce and therefore very high minimum wage structures. For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt. But someone has to manufacture it. Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. Without Governmental protection and Tariff controls, the sibling value-added industry in developing countries will not be able to compete and will stifle. While the Sweat Shops will prosper selling T-shirts. At the same time the massive population markets in these countries will be an open door to all value-added goods & services which are not manufactured locally, whether they need them or not.
That, my friend, is Globalization. I reiterate I`m not a conspiracy thorist, but it all seems just so strange to me.
Reply #: 155 sadna
``sorry I could not understand what you meant to say and I don`t remember either my Bible or my BoneyM``
Oh .. but those are the essential ingredients of my arguments. Bible, as are all Holy books, is relevant in achieving an understanding. I would never have understood Qura`an if I hadn`t read the Bible.
That particular reference to Psalm 137 was about Israel. Interestingly this particular Psalm was recorded by BoneyM and initiated the Disco revolution in the 70`s. I quote it below:
``By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion. Psalm 137:1(NEB)``
This passage is based on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. The Psalm was written in remembrance of when the Jewish people were killed or dragged off as slaves to Babylon.
In verses 8 and 9 of Psalm 137 we have some of the most violent lines in the Hebrew Bible. ``Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and
dashes them against the rocks.`` The Hebrews ask for revenge.
Psalm 137:1-6, relates to the River of Euphrates and Babylon, the land of Israel`s captivity, ``By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we
wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song: and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the Lord`s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not
remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.``
Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.
Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?
Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?
Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.
The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times.
If you haven`t listened, do get a CD of BoneyM. It`s great dance music. The message however is Spiritual.
Regards.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 19, 2001 11:43 am
Reply #: 148 SameerJBSure my hand is raised. It`s only that every board invariably turns to India/Pakistan bashing regardless of what the author is trying to say.
Reply #: 151 tahmed321
I take your point. So I retract my earlier statement. Although I`m too lazy for that extra click !
Reply #: 153 friend, Reply #: 156 SameerJB
The China example is a good one. Where else could you go to a restaurant on the Great Wall and served with days old rotten stinking fish, and when you reject it with horror, your taxi driver laps it up as he couldn`t afford even that! The Shanxi province alone is larger than Pakistan both in terms of population and area, and the centre for metallurgical industry, but largely the masses are little better off than animals and human life is cheap.
I subscribe to the worker nation argument. Globalization is essentially drawing a start line and asking everyone to run when the pistol is fired. However, the majority of nations are handicapped, while only a few are advantaged as these had entered the Industrial Era at the turn of the 19/20th century. That gives them a 100 year head start as no single thirld world nation in comparison can be said to have entered the Industrial Era since then (with the exception of Korea, but it was stopped in it`s tracks as well in 1997). How does one expect them to compete?
I believe it`s all about value-addition in goods & services. The developed nations have high value addition, very highly skilled workforce and therefore very high minimum wage structures. For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt. But someone has to manufacture it. Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. Without Governmental protection and Tariff controls, the sibling value-added industry in developing countries will not be able to compete and will stifle. While the Sweat Shops will prosper selling T-shirts. At the same time the massive population markets in these countries will be an open door to all value-added goods & services which are not manufactured locally, whether they need them or not.
That, my friend, is Globalization. I reiterate I`m not a conspiracy thorist, but it all seems just so strange to me.
Reply #: 155 sadna
``sorry I could not understand what you meant to say and I don`t remember either my Bible or my BoneyM``
Oh .. but those are the essential ingredients of my arguments. Bible, as are all Holy books, is relevant in achieving an understanding. I would never have understood Qura`an if I hadn`t read the Bible.
That particular reference to Psalm 137 was about Israel. Interestingly this particular Psalm was recorded by BoneyM and initiated the Disco revolution in the 70`s. I quote it below:
``By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion. Psalm 137:1(NEB)``
This passage is based on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. The Psalm was written in remembrance of when the Jewish people were killed or dragged off as slaves to Babylon.
In verses 8 and 9 of Psalm 137 we have some of the most violent lines in the Hebrew Bible. ``Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and
dashes them against the rocks.`` The Hebrews ask for revenge.
Psalm 137:1-6, relates to the River of Euphrates and Babylon, the land of Israel`s captivity, ``By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we
wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song: and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the Lord`s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not
remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.``
Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.
Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?
Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?
Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.
The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times.
If you haven`t listened, do get a CD of BoneyM. It`s great dance music. The message however is Spiritual.
Regards.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
So: capital inflows are to be encouraged. In backward societies, life is seen as a lose-lose (or at best, a win-lose) situation, and any win-win situations are viewed with suspicion. Of course one needs to have a framework of sound policies and good governance to get maximum value out of foreign capital, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where foreign investments and greater competition and modern management methods and modern technologies they bring in is bad for the economy.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 18, 2001 10:08 pm
SameerJB #156 I agree with you that capital inflows to a country are to be encouraged. The US became a mighty industrial country due to massive inflows of European capital in the late 19th century (which financed railroads, among other things). Even today, US states compete with one another to attract foreign investments. friend #153 You and your sources seem unaware of is that much of the foreign capital is owned by expatriate chinese. Li-Ka Shing, for example, is among the handful of multibillionaires in the world and a well-known source of foreign capital - the Chinese expat community (with those in South East Asia alone estimated to have a worth of well over half a trillion dollars) has been called the third largest economy in the world (after US and Japan). The growing expat Indian community is already a significant source of foreign capital inflows to India. So: capital inflows are to be encouraged. In backward societies, life is seen as a lose-lose (or at best, a win-lose) situation, and any win-win situations are viewed with suspicion. Of course one needs to have a framework of sound policies and good governance to get maximum value out of foreign capital, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where foreign investments and greater competition and modern management methods and modern technologies they bring in is bad for the economy.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
You write ``Looking in the rear & side-view mirrors does result in safe driving.And once one has safely backed the vehicle one does want to go in forward gear...``. Agreed. Rear view mirrors are great for backing into the past. Is that what we want to do? While the rest of humanity builds upon discoveries and lessons learnt by previous generations, we blithely skip these lessons. The logical conclusion would be for us to move back to the caves and eat raw flesh. I suggest we concern ourselves with what is coming down the road over the next 20-30 years, since that is the responsibility of all adults living today.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 17, 2001 09:41 pm
Farangi Kush #154 Welcome back to chowk. You write: ``What about Christain South Americans & Mexicans,Atheist Russians,Whatever East Europeans,------in short almost 4/5 billion souls living in over 98% of countries,otherwise known as the Third world.`` I suppose them too, and no doubt many people in rich countries too. But let us have the confidence to rise above what we perceive to be a weakness that some people in other cultures may have too. After all: if you are flabby and overweight, then the answer is to accept that fact and do what you can as one person about it, not simply point out that you are not the only overweight person on earth.You write ``Looking in the rear & side-view mirrors does result in safe driving.And once one has safely backed the vehicle one does want to go in forward gear...``. Agreed. Rear view mirrors are great for backing into the past. Is that what we want to do? While the rest of humanity builds upon discoveries and lessons learnt by previous generations, we blithely skip these lessons. The logical conclusion would be for us to move back to the caves and eat raw flesh. I suggest we concern ourselves with what is coming down the road over the next 20-30 years, since that is the responsibility of all adults living today.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
Sir: I am hearing you loud and clear. Go ahead. Men with big egos can be a lot of fun sometimes :)
later
-sac
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 17, 2001 12:18 am
re Zeemax #145:Sir: I am hearing you loud and clear. Go ahead. Men with big egos can be a lot of fun sometimes :)
later
-sac
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
Yes my friend, you indeed have a big ego.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 16, 2001 09:28 pm
Zeemax: How do you keep this board alive? By sending some other other board (along with the discussion taking place there) prematurely to the archives instead? Yes my friend, you indeed have a big ego.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
Excuses, excuses.
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 16, 2001 03:13 am
Zeemax #142 ``I`ll respond to this if the board is alive. I don`t want to talk to archives.``Excuses, excuses.
Happy Birthday, Chowk!
``God is indeed watching, but only man can intervene in this lifetime.``
Okay so now we go on to the real stuff. If you really want to know.
But this is heavy. Do go back to my article and read the last observations and contemplate. Then we`ll talk.
Rgds
Zeemax
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 16, 2001 02:22 am
Reply #: 141 sadna``God is indeed watching, but only man can intervene in this lifetime.``
Okay so now we go on to the real stuff. If you really want to know.
But this is heavy. Do go back to my article and read the last observations and contemplate. Then we`ll talk.
Rgds
Zeemax
Coming Home to a Foreign Land
You live in Boston? BTW, your father being a jamadar in Pakistani Army does not qualify you as one of ``military background``
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 6, 2001 09:00 am
Oye AliYou live in Boston? BTW, your father being a jamadar in Pakistani Army does not qualify you as one of ``military background``
Coming Home to a Foreign Land
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 5, 2001 01:04 am
ali1 #125 I see that my saying that the Quran is secular annoys you. I am not surprised, given that this makes the filth you post about other religions on chowk based not on Islam but on your own upbringing. You are welcome to ridicule me to vent your frustration. However, that does not make you right.
Coming Home to a Foreign Land
Posted by
egalitarian_bra
Aug 4, 2001 12:34 am
jay #189 ha! ha! so I am a mediocre damp squibb, unlike the brilliant urstruly with whom you know where you stand, and the great humorist hamidm who makes you roll with laughter at his humor directed towards fellow Pakis. Dont be too disappointed though - I may frustrate people like you by expressing my love and respect for Indian culture and history, but I am not mediocre at all in my contempt for people like you and urstruly: you live comfortable lives, and from the comfort of your workstation try to generate hatreds among communities in the subcontinent from where you have made your own escape. The misery of the poor people in India and Pakistan mean nothing to jerks like you. 
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