The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition Publius,the flow of cultures and ideas is never a problem. In fact, from our pov, it is the best thing since sliced bread, or before:

"Let good thoughts come to us from every side."

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Sattar bhai

If one claims sufism was inspired by Buddhism, well, then tell us about it. How spcifically? What may be some reasonable evidence, even if we will never have any evidence that will stand up in the US supreme court? Show something.

Same with claims of Sufism inspiring Gita and other stuff.

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At this point in time, this is pure trash, a fantasy of a mind that refuses to come to terms with India.

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition sattar

All of Murad bhai's work is deeply problematic for Indians, including this one.

For staters, we would all benefit from his sharing with us some reasonable evidence for the 'influences' he asserts. What specifically were these influences and if he has any thing to support his claims, over and above any inherent Persian greatness (of character or empire).

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition "Ancient Persia was very much part of Hindu civilization"

Need not be, though anything is possible. An equally likely scenario could be that both shared some source long in distant past, or that some ideas were spread all across vast stretches of land prior to Islam. Yes, there is evidence of people taking books and people visiting India to learn things but none we know of Indians going to China or Persia to learn anything.

With Islam, the game changed. A ponzi scheme started. Arabs declared their own ancestors jaahils and brutes. Persians who became more Muslims than Persians claimed all wisdom came from Arabia. Indian who became Muslims claimed all wisdom came from Persia and Arabia, and so on.

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition muqaddam

Pre-Islamic Persia was many accounts a great place, as, again, most likely, was Pre-islamic Arabia. These people were not barbarians and savages and jaahils.

In addition, there is no doubt that priot to Islam, many common ideas existed all acorss India and Persia, and may be even beyond.

The disagreement is solely due to Murad bhai's assertions of ancient Indian ideas and thoughts and philosophy being influenced by (originated in) pre-Islamic Persia. He would like to believe it but we have seen no evidence of any kind from him yet.

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition nkg dada

Persians may have been gods themselves to Murad bhai, and probably in his imaginations, they were.

All we would like from him is some basic evidence or logic to support his tall claims (other that he considers them gods in his own mind).

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition It will be good if Murad bhai can show us ONE contribution that Persian thought made to India. Just one.

And I don't mean what Persians might have taught to Aurangzeb.

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Until now, Muradbhai's modus operandi seems to be: I have no evidence nor logic. But I will say it anyway, since, hey, Persians were a great empire!

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition It seems murad bhai is an admirer of Persian noor, and that of course becomes Islamic noor to him.

ok, bhai jaan, what 'influence' on Indian thought/philosophy "cannot be denied", and why?

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition shoaib bhai and peon ji,

Be that as it may, the fastest way to bring peace to NWFP may indeed be establish sufism as the religion of pederasty.

Since whatever cannot be disproven is automatically true in Murad bhai's world, may be he write a few articles and help save many lives.

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition majumdar dada

The basic methodology of this article seems to be: if there is nothing to explicitly contradict what I would like to say, I will state it as a fact.

In that spirit, sufism was the religion of pederasty. The cloak of sufism allowed gays to collect young boys in their homes and keep Islamic gaze away. That also neatly explains the constant sufi talk of erotic merging and the dandy device of whirling.

Why is that all that so true? because, that's at least a possibility and we lack sufficient evidence to fully contradict it.

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition I am particularly interted in what, if anything, Murad bhai knows of Alexander's intereactions with Pakistani philosophers, indeed of Greek interactions with Pakistani/Indian philosophers before even Alexander, and then after alexander..

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition The essence of murad bhai's 'research' (as veeresh bhai so brilliantly put it) seems to be that

(1) alexander found sommething in Persia
(2) that thing wasn't in india

So persia influenced in India.


Somehow, in this process, Islam (which came MUCH later) took some credit for some 'spiritual core' quite indpendent of all this.

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What's all this? Could murad bhai fill in some gaps, please?

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition Murad ji, alexander never really entered India.

And you are familiar with Alexander's interactions with Pakistani philosophers?

What do Alexander's historians say that your cloth wearers in Persia had that wasn't in India, in terms of ideas, then?

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Given that sufi 'philosophy' remains rather childish and amateurish even today, what stops you from assuming (which would be more logical) that those cloth wearers Alexander presumably saw weren't influenced by Indian (Pakistani) philosophers, instead of vice versa?

The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition laddu ji, unIslamic sophism, extant before Islam, in Persia or wherever, might have shared some ideas with the Indian thought. The concept of merging with the Divine was an old Indian idea and might even have been more widespread in some form.

Most likely, these unIslamic people in Persia simply read or were forced to read the shahada and became "Muslims". Given where Indian philosophy was in its stage of development, these sophis influencing Indian philosophy seems like a ridiculous assertion to me, at least. Same with assertion about bhakti. But if murad bhai has any evidence to back up his reverse-world interpretations, he should share.

His arguments remind me of his brilliant brainwave that Indians began to worship the cow as a way to harrass and starve invading Muslims to death.

If God is the Same then Why is God Different? #55, we need to stop making a fuss over these things. Spies are killed all the time.

Young Turks’ Revolution for Pakistan This must rank among the more thoughtless offerings to appear on Chowk.

"In Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, and elsewhere the night clubs, pubs and bars thrive. The sex business too is permissible. The people go to beaches, take part in gambling and do horse racing. Very few ladies observe purdah."

So

(1) are you promoting night clubs, pubs, bars, and sex business, along with gambling and horse racing, with ladies going everywhere without purdah? Can there be no scientific advancement and progress unless Pakistan takes up all that with gusto?, and

(2) if you can't tell what makes Pakistan, along with Saudi Arabia, unique in the world of Islam, then your prescriptions are likely to do no good, even if they could be magically implemented, for magic is what it will take to implement them.

Lashes to lashes, dust to dust Urstruly, further to what nb wrote, the pakistan's own city of mohenjo daro has been estimated to have had a population of about 50 thousand as early as 2500 BC. Harappa had another 30 k.

By the time 1st century BC rolled around, there were cities around the world, from Rome to China, with near a million people living in them, each, leading extremely complex lives.

The earliest reference to China is found in Mahabharata, wherein they are refered to as a bunch of barbarians. (probably everyone considered everyone else a barbarian in those days!).