In Defense of The Left
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Netgravity/popup5/0,,,00.html?IFRHEIGHT=%22200%22¡ÄIFRWIDTH=%22200%22¡ÄIFRAMEBGCOL=%22000000%22¡ÄSPACEDESC=popupbig46
Islam has a progressive tradition too
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Most western views of Muslims are founded on ignorance
Hamza Yusuf
Wednesday June 19, 2002
The Guardian
When a Welsh resistance leader was captured and brought before the emperor in Rome, he said: ``Because you desire to conquer the world, it does not necessarily follow that the world desires to be conquered by you.`` Today one could offer an echo of this sentiment to western liberals: ``Because you wish your values to prevail throughout the world, it does not always follow that the world wishes to adopt them.`` The imperial voice is based on ignorance of the rich traditions of other civilisations, and on an undue optimism about what the west is doing to the world politically, economically and environmentally. The entrenched beliefs many westerners profess about Islam often reveal more about the west than they do about Islam or Muslims. The Ottomans were history`s longest-lasting major dynasty; their durability must have had some relation to their ability to rule a multi-faith empire at a time when Europe was busily hanging, drawing and quartering different varieties of Christian believer.
Today Islam is said to be less, not more, tolerant than the west, and we need to ask which, precisely, are the ``western`` values with which Islam is so incompatible? Some believe Islam`s attitude towards women is the source of the Muslim ``problem``. Westerners need to look to their own attitudes here and recognise that only very recently have patriarchal structures begun to erode in the west.
The Islamic tradition does show some areas of apparent incompatibility with the goals of women in the west, and Muslims have a long way to go in their attitudes towards women. But blaming the religion is again to express an ignorance both of the religion and of the historical struggle for equality of women in Muslim societies.
A careful reading of modern female theologians of Islam would cause western women to be impressed by legal injunctions more than 1,000 years old that, for instance, grant women legal rights to domestic help at the expense of their husbands. Three of the four Sunni schools consider domestic chores outside the scope of a woman`s legal responsibilities toward her husband. Contrast that with US polls showing that working women still do 80% of domestic chores.
Westerners, in their advocacy of global conformism, often speak of ``progress`` and the rejection of the not-too-distant feudal past, and are less likely to reveal their unease about corporate hegemony and the real human implications of globalisation.
Neither are the missionaries of western values willing to consider why Europe, the heart of the west, should have generated two world wars which killed more civilians than all the wars of the previous 20 centuries. As Muslims point out, we are asked to call them ``world wars`` despite their reality as western wars, which targeted civilians with weapons of mass destruction at a time when Islam was largely at peace.
We Muslims are unpersuaded by many triumphalist claims made for the west, but are happy with its core values. As a westerner, the child of civil rights and anti-war activists, I embraced Islam not in abandonment of my core values, drawn almost entirely from the progressive tradition, but as an affirmation of them. I have since studied Islamic law for 10 years with traditionally trained scholars, and while some particulars in medieval legal texts have troubled me, never have the universals come into conflict with anything my progressive Californian mother taught me. Instead, I have marvelled at how most of what western society claims as its own highest ideals are deeply rooted in Islamic tradition.
The chauvinism apparent among some westerners is typically triggered by Islamic extremism. Few take the trouble to notice that mainstream Islam dislikes the extremists as much as the west does. What I fear is that an excuse has been provided to supply some westerners with a replacement for their older habit of anti-semitism. The shift is not such a difficult one. Arabs, after all, are semites, and the Arabian prophet`s teaching is closer in its theology and law to Judaism than it is to Christianity. We Muslims in the west, like Jews before us, grapple with the same issues that Jews of the past did: integration or isolation, tradition or reform, intermarriage or intra-marriage.
Muslims who yearn for an ideal Islamic state are in some ways reflecting the old aspirations of the Diaspora Jews for a homeland where they would be free to be different. Muslims, like Jews, often dress differently; we cannot eat some of the food of the host countries. Like the Jews of the past, we are now seen as parasites on the social body, burdened with a uniform and unreformable law, contributing little, scheming in ghettoes, and obscurely indifferent to personal hygiene.
Cartoons of Arabs seem little different to the caricatures of Jews in German newspapers of the Nazi period. In the 1930s, such images ensured that few found the courage to speak out about the possible consequences of such a demonisation, just as few today are really thinking about the anti-Muslim rhetoric of the extreme-right parties across Europe. Muslims in general, and Arabs especially, have become the new ``other``.
When I met President Bush last year, I gave him two books. One was The Essential Koran, translated by Thomas Cleary. The second was another translation by Cleary, Thunder in the Sky: Secrets of the Acquisition and Use of Power. Written by an ancient Chinese sage, it reflects the universal values of another great people.
I did this because, as an American, rooted in the best of western tradition, and a Muslim convert who finds much of profundity in Chinese philosophy, I believe the ``Huntington thesis`` that these three great civilisations must inevitably clash is a lie. Each civilisation speaks with many voices; the best of them find much in common. Not only can our civilisations co-exist in our respective parts of the world, they can co-exist in the individual heart, as they do in mine. We can enrich each other if we choose to embrace our essential humanity; we can destroy the world if we choose to stress our differences.
¡¤ Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hanson is the director of the US-based Zaytouna Institute
comment@guardian.co.uk
Special report
Religion in the UK
Comment and analysis
28.09.2001: Polly Toynbee: Behind the burka
28.09.2001: Martin Woollacott: Muslim societies need to deal with failure
Posted by
Fatimah
Jun 20, 2002 09:20 pm
In arrogence or Ignorence some Non muslims or even misguided suffering from `negro Complex` unfortunately fail to see the light of Islam & its true brightness crowded by inadequacy of oneself rather than the theology philosophy & its jurisprudence .A daunting task indeedhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/Netgravity/popup5/0,,,00.html?IFRHEIGHT=%22200%22¡ÄIFRWIDTH=%22200%22¡ÄIFRAMEBGCOL=%22000000%22¡ÄSPACEDESC=popupbig46
Islam has a progressive tradition too
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Most western views of Muslims are founded on ignorance
Hamza Yusuf
Wednesday June 19, 2002
The Guardian
When a Welsh resistance leader was captured and brought before the emperor in Rome, he said: ``Because you desire to conquer the world, it does not necessarily follow that the world desires to be conquered by you.`` Today one could offer an echo of this sentiment to western liberals: ``Because you wish your values to prevail throughout the world, it does not always follow that the world wishes to adopt them.`` The imperial voice is based on ignorance of the rich traditions of other civilisations, and on an undue optimism about what the west is doing to the world politically, economically and environmentally. The entrenched beliefs many westerners profess about Islam often reveal more about the west than they do about Islam or Muslims. The Ottomans were history`s longest-lasting major dynasty; their durability must have had some relation to their ability to rule a multi-faith empire at a time when Europe was busily hanging, drawing and quartering different varieties of Christian believer.
Today Islam is said to be less, not more, tolerant than the west, and we need to ask which, precisely, are the ``western`` values with which Islam is so incompatible? Some believe Islam`s attitude towards women is the source of the Muslim ``problem``. Westerners need to look to their own attitudes here and recognise that only very recently have patriarchal structures begun to erode in the west.
The Islamic tradition does show some areas of apparent incompatibility with the goals of women in the west, and Muslims have a long way to go in their attitudes towards women. But blaming the religion is again to express an ignorance both of the religion and of the historical struggle for equality of women in Muslim societies.
A careful reading of modern female theologians of Islam would cause western women to be impressed by legal injunctions more than 1,000 years old that, for instance, grant women legal rights to domestic help at the expense of their husbands. Three of the four Sunni schools consider domestic chores outside the scope of a woman`s legal responsibilities toward her husband. Contrast that with US polls showing that working women still do 80% of domestic chores.
Westerners, in their advocacy of global conformism, often speak of ``progress`` and the rejection of the not-too-distant feudal past, and are less likely to reveal their unease about corporate hegemony and the real human implications of globalisation.
Neither are the missionaries of western values willing to consider why Europe, the heart of the west, should have generated two world wars which killed more civilians than all the wars of the previous 20 centuries. As Muslims point out, we are asked to call them ``world wars`` despite their reality as western wars, which targeted civilians with weapons of mass destruction at a time when Islam was largely at peace.
We Muslims are unpersuaded by many triumphalist claims made for the west, but are happy with its core values. As a westerner, the child of civil rights and anti-war activists, I embraced Islam not in abandonment of my core values, drawn almost entirely from the progressive tradition, but as an affirmation of them. I have since studied Islamic law for 10 years with traditionally trained scholars, and while some particulars in medieval legal texts have troubled me, never have the universals come into conflict with anything my progressive Californian mother taught me. Instead, I have marvelled at how most of what western society claims as its own highest ideals are deeply rooted in Islamic tradition.
The chauvinism apparent among some westerners is typically triggered by Islamic extremism. Few take the trouble to notice that mainstream Islam dislikes the extremists as much as the west does. What I fear is that an excuse has been provided to supply some westerners with a replacement for their older habit of anti-semitism. The shift is not such a difficult one. Arabs, after all, are semites, and the Arabian prophet`s teaching is closer in its theology and law to Judaism than it is to Christianity. We Muslims in the west, like Jews before us, grapple with the same issues that Jews of the past did: integration or isolation, tradition or reform, intermarriage or intra-marriage.
Muslims who yearn for an ideal Islamic state are in some ways reflecting the old aspirations of the Diaspora Jews for a homeland where they would be free to be different. Muslims, like Jews, often dress differently; we cannot eat some of the food of the host countries. Like the Jews of the past, we are now seen as parasites on the social body, burdened with a uniform and unreformable law, contributing little, scheming in ghettoes, and obscurely indifferent to personal hygiene.
Cartoons of Arabs seem little different to the caricatures of Jews in German newspapers of the Nazi period. In the 1930s, such images ensured that few found the courage to speak out about the possible consequences of such a demonisation, just as few today are really thinking about the anti-Muslim rhetoric of the extreme-right parties across Europe. Muslims in general, and Arabs especially, have become the new ``other``.
When I met President Bush last year, I gave him two books. One was The Essential Koran, translated by Thomas Cleary. The second was another translation by Cleary, Thunder in the Sky: Secrets of the Acquisition and Use of Power. Written by an ancient Chinese sage, it reflects the universal values of another great people.
I did this because, as an American, rooted in the best of western tradition, and a Muslim convert who finds much of profundity in Chinese philosophy, I believe the ``Huntington thesis`` that these three great civilisations must inevitably clash is a lie. Each civilisation speaks with many voices; the best of them find much in common. Not only can our civilisations co-exist in our respective parts of the world, they can co-exist in the individual heart, as they do in mine. We can enrich each other if we choose to embrace our essential humanity; we can destroy the world if we choose to stress our differences.
¡¤ Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hanson is the director of the US-based Zaytouna Institute
comment@guardian.co.uk
Special report
Religion in the UK
Comment and analysis
28.09.2001: Polly Toynbee: Behind the burka
28.09.2001: Martin Woollacott: Muslim societies need to deal with failure
I am Ashamed and I Apologize
http://www.telegraphindia.com/
PUBLISHER FACES FLAK FOR BIAS IN TEXT
FROM MONOBINA GUPTA New Delhi, June 20: It?s now the turn of the National Council of Educational Research and Training to pull up a private publisher of school textbooks for hurting the sentiments of a minority community.
A sixth standard social science textbook, published by Goyal Brothers Prakashan, has become the target of criticism by minority organisations for exclusively carrying a chapter on Hindu religion and leaving out the rest. The publisher claims that the textbook?s contents are in accordance with the latest NCERT guidelines.
With the Supreme Court stay on new NCERT textbooks in social science, history and Hindi, private publishers are flooding the market with their books, all claiming to be in line with the new syllabus.
?There are few people discerning enough to be able to differentiate between an original NCERT textbook and others that are just claiming to follow its syllabus,? said an official.
Goyal Prakashan?s textbook came to the notice of the Sunni Students? Federation, Kerala, which petitioned human resources development minister Murli Manohar Joshi to intervene.
?It was with shock and dismay that we noted that the newly introduced social science textbook for the sixth standard authored by D.N. Kundra (strictly in accordance with the 2002 NCERT guidelines) has dropped the part about Islam from its Major Religions chapter,? the federation said in its letter.
?We strongly condemn this act of spoiling the secular status of our nation and request the concerned authorities to withdraw this book with immediate effect,? it added.
Rajendra Dixit, convenor of the Curriculum Group, replied: ?The NCERT syllabus of 2002 has not left out Islam. The social science syllabus of the sixth standard is limited to ?People and Society in the Ancient Period?.?
Dixit explained that Islam had been included in the seventh standard social science syllabus.
Private publishers have given NCERT some ammunition against the Supreme Court. Their main argument is that the court does not clamp down on private publishers and cut off the supply of new textbooks ? it is only the NCERT that is stopped from going ahead with the printing. The next court hearing is scheduled for July 16.
If the court order goes in favour of NCERT, students of Class XI may be spared the trouble of running from pillar to post for new textbooks.
Posted by
Fatimah
Jun 20, 2002 09:20 pm
SOCIAL STUDIES BOOK CLAIMED TO BE PUBLISHED ACCORDING TO THE NCERT (NATIONAL COUNCIL OF EDUCATION RESEARCH & TRAINING)OF INDIA SYLLABUS FOR 6TH GRADES,ONLY HAS INFORMATION ON HINDUISM http://www.telegraphindia.com/
PUBLISHER FACES FLAK FOR BIAS IN TEXT
FROM MONOBINA GUPTA New Delhi, June 20: It?s now the turn of the National Council of Educational Research and Training to pull up a private publisher of school textbooks for hurting the sentiments of a minority community.
A sixth standard social science textbook, published by Goyal Brothers Prakashan, has become the target of criticism by minority organisations for exclusively carrying a chapter on Hindu religion and leaving out the rest. The publisher claims that the textbook?s contents are in accordance with the latest NCERT guidelines.
With the Supreme Court stay on new NCERT textbooks in social science, history and Hindi, private publishers are flooding the market with their books, all claiming to be in line with the new syllabus.
?There are few people discerning enough to be able to differentiate between an original NCERT textbook and others that are just claiming to follow its syllabus,? said an official.
Goyal Prakashan?s textbook came to the notice of the Sunni Students? Federation, Kerala, which petitioned human resources development minister Murli Manohar Joshi to intervene.
?It was with shock and dismay that we noted that the newly introduced social science textbook for the sixth standard authored by D.N. Kundra (strictly in accordance with the 2002 NCERT guidelines) has dropped the part about Islam from its Major Religions chapter,? the federation said in its letter.
?We strongly condemn this act of spoiling the secular status of our nation and request the concerned authorities to withdraw this book with immediate effect,? it added.
Rajendra Dixit, convenor of the Curriculum Group, replied: ?The NCERT syllabus of 2002 has not left out Islam. The social science syllabus of the sixth standard is limited to ?People and Society in the Ancient Period?.?
Dixit explained that Islam had been included in the seventh standard social science syllabus.
Private publishers have given NCERT some ammunition against the Supreme Court. Their main argument is that the court does not clamp down on private publishers and cut off the supply of new textbooks ? it is only the NCERT that is stopped from going ahead with the printing. The next court hearing is scheduled for July 16.
If the court order goes in favour of NCERT, students of Class XI may be spared the trouble of running from pillar to post for new textbooks.
In Defense of The Left
19 killed by Jerusalem suicide bomb
Palestinian leader accuses Israel of torture
CNN chief accuses Israel of terror
CNN chief accuses Israel of terror
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Oliver Burkeman in New York and Peter Beaumont in Jerusalem
Tuesday June 18, 2002
The Guardian
Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of engaging in ``terrorism`` against the Palestinians, in comments that threaten to lead to a further decline in the news network`s already poor relations with the Jewish state.
``Aren`t the Israelis and the Palestinians both terrorising each other?`` says Turner, who is vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, which owns CNN, in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
``The Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers, that`s all they have. The Israelis ... they`ve got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism.``
His remarks were last night condemned by Ariel Sharon`s government, which called them ``stupid``. Andrea Levin, director of the American pro-Israeli media watchdog Camera, said the comments were a ``reprehensible`` attempt to ``blur the line between perpetrator and victim``.
In his first British interview since the September 11 attacks, Mr Turner - who broke philanthropic records in 1997 when he donated $1bn to the UN - argues that poverty and desperation are the root cause of Palestinian suicide bombings.
But Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said: ``My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone in that view.``
Mr Turner also admits that he was wrong to call the September 11 hijackers ``brave`` in a speech in Rhode Island that sparked outrage. ``I made an unfortunate choice of words,`` he says, adding that his ownership of the Atlanta Braves baseball team meant the word was never far from his mind. ``Look, I`m a very good thinker, but I sometimes grab the wrong word ... I mean, I don`t type my speeches, then sit up there and read them off the teleprompter, you know. I wing it.``
Mr Turner is moved to tears at one point in the interview by the ``depressing`` combination of conflicts like that in the Middle East and the state of the environment, which he says demands massive global attention - ``or, you know ... it`s goodbye``.
A senior minister in Yasser Arafat`s cabinet told the Guardian he welcomed Mr Turner`s comments. Many Palestinians complain just as bitterly of a pro-Israeli bias in CNN`s coverage - mocking it as the ``Zionist News Network`` - as Israel complains of a pro-Palestinian one.
``I feel it reflects a more consistent approach,`` said Ghassan Khatib, Mr Arafat`s newly appointed labour minister and until recently director of the Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre, a Palestinian media monitoring unit.
``One of the problems in trying to reduce the violence has been the focus of so much international attention on Israeli rather than Palestinian civilian deaths, although four times as many Palestinians have been killed.``
CNN has been a punchbag for both sides. A widespread perception of bias among some Israelis and US supporters of Israel has prompted several boycotts by pressure groups, urging viewers to switch to Rupert Murdoch`s Fox News channel. But three months ago, in an interview with CNN`s Christiane Amanpour, Mr Arafat slammed down the phone after accusing her of anti-Palestinian bias. ``You are covering with these questions the terrorist activities of the Israeli occupation and the Israeli crimes,`` he said. ``Be quiet. Be fair. Thank you, bye-bye.``
Related articles
05.04.2002: Israeli troops attack journalists
03.04.2002: BBC news chief condemns Israel
03.04.2002: BBC protests after crew caught in violence
03.04.2002: Journalists protest at Israeli press ban
03.04.2002: Keep out, Israel warns US broadcasters
MediaGuardian.co.uk special report
Israel
Guardian Unlimited special report
Israel and the Middle East
Posted by
Fatimah
Jun 20, 2002 11:37 am
19 killed by Jerusalem suicide bomb
Palestinian leader accuses Israel of torture
CNN chief accuses Israel of terror
CNN chief accuses Israel of terror
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Oliver Burkeman in New York and Peter Beaumont in Jerusalem
Tuesday June 18, 2002
The Guardian
Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of engaging in ``terrorism`` against the Palestinians, in comments that threaten to lead to a further decline in the news network`s already poor relations with the Jewish state.
``Aren`t the Israelis and the Palestinians both terrorising each other?`` says Turner, who is vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, which owns CNN, in an exclusive interview with the Guardian.
``The Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers, that`s all they have. The Israelis ... they`ve got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism.``
His remarks were last night condemned by Ariel Sharon`s government, which called them ``stupid``. Andrea Levin, director of the American pro-Israeli media watchdog Camera, said the comments were a ``reprehensible`` attempt to ``blur the line between perpetrator and victim``.
In his first British interview since the September 11 attacks, Mr Turner - who broke philanthropic records in 1997 when he donated $1bn to the UN - argues that poverty and desperation are the root cause of Palestinian suicide bombings.
But Daniel Seaman, a spokesman for the Israeli government, said: ``My only advice to Ted Turner is if people assume you are stupid, it is just best to keep your mouth shut rather than open your mouth and confirm everyone in that view.``
Mr Turner also admits that he was wrong to call the September 11 hijackers ``brave`` in a speech in Rhode Island that sparked outrage. ``I made an unfortunate choice of words,`` he says, adding that his ownership of the Atlanta Braves baseball team meant the word was never far from his mind. ``Look, I`m a very good thinker, but I sometimes grab the wrong word ... I mean, I don`t type my speeches, then sit up there and read them off the teleprompter, you know. I wing it.``
Mr Turner is moved to tears at one point in the interview by the ``depressing`` combination of conflicts like that in the Middle East and the state of the environment, which he says demands massive global attention - ``or, you know ... it`s goodbye``.
A senior minister in Yasser Arafat`s cabinet told the Guardian he welcomed Mr Turner`s comments. Many Palestinians complain just as bitterly of a pro-Israeli bias in CNN`s coverage - mocking it as the ``Zionist News Network`` - as Israel complains of a pro-Palestinian one.
``I feel it reflects a more consistent approach,`` said Ghassan Khatib, Mr Arafat`s newly appointed labour minister and until recently director of the Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre, a Palestinian media monitoring unit.
``One of the problems in trying to reduce the violence has been the focus of so much international attention on Israeli rather than Palestinian civilian deaths, although four times as many Palestinians have been killed.``
CNN has been a punchbag for both sides. A widespread perception of bias among some Israelis and US supporters of Israel has prompted several boycotts by pressure groups, urging viewers to switch to Rupert Murdoch`s Fox News channel. But three months ago, in an interview with CNN`s Christiane Amanpour, Mr Arafat slammed down the phone after accusing her of anti-Palestinian bias. ``You are covering with these questions the terrorist activities of the Israeli occupation and the Israeli crimes,`` he said. ``Be quiet. Be fair. Thank you, bye-bye.``
Related articles
05.04.2002: Israeli troops attack journalists
03.04.2002: BBC news chief condemns Israel
03.04.2002: BBC protests after crew caught in violence
03.04.2002: Journalists protest at Israeli press ban
03.04.2002: Keep out, Israel warns US broadcasters
MediaGuardian.co.uk special report
Israel
Guardian Unlimited special report
Israel and the Middle East
Lighting The Nuclear Fire
I`d rather s/uc/k into an inferior mango than put with with the drivel posted by a whole lot of s/uc/kers on chowk!
It wont make the putrid air of Delhi less poisonous nor luxury of Air condition interrupt in the Defence & Clifton Beaches.
Posted by
Fatimah
May 31, 2002 06:05 pm
Re veeresh 203I`d rather s/uc/k into an inferior mango than put with with the drivel posted by a whole lot of s/uc/kers on chowk!
It wont make the putrid air of Delhi less poisonous nor luxury of Air condition interrupt in the Defence & Clifton Beaches.
On Hate
JAY #193
``anNY should have realised that if a person so far away, like herself, can identify with the indian muslim through a system of education, what could have been the imact on the hindus at the news of train killings.``
Unkal Jay
I was never ``through system of education`` but through the gujju RAT hindu system.Still i identify with 2000+ 58 victims ....
Why cant you get it, an act of FEW criminal types(NOT MUSLIMS may be congressBUT NEVER MUSLIMS)cannot be the justification of widespread crimes by Gujju RAT hindu indiscriminastely with NO relation with the criminals of train burning.
Tell me what power did the victims have to stop that train burning type crime from happenings when they were NEVER part of it .
Posted by
Fatimah
Apr 23, 2002 12:09 pm
JAY #193
``anNY should have realised that if a person so far away, like herself, can identify with the indian muslim through a system of education, what could have been the imact on the hindus at the news of train killings.``
Unkal Jay
I was never ``through system of education`` but through the gujju RAT hindu system.Still i identify with 2000+ 58 victims ....
Why cant you get it, an act of FEW criminal types(NOT MUSLIMS may be congressBUT NEVER MUSLIMS)cannot be the justification of widespread crimes by Gujju RAT hindu indiscriminastely with NO relation with the criminals of train burning.
Tell me what power did the victims have to stop that train burning type crime from happenings when they were NEVER part of it .
Regarding the Stupid White Men
.... just yesterday, after biryani and ankle torturing maghrib prayers, i listened in amazement to a couple of phd`s marvel at how the koran had foretold global warming and measured the temperature of the earth`s core .......join a tafseer class and learn all about big bang and the life cycle of an earthworm ..........``
Hami Dum Dum dum
Man now i know where you r coming from .Do you live among the Arabs of Dearborn or near it ?
You are one messed up theological confusion.<
Posted by
Fatimah
Apr 22, 2002 06:45 pm
Hamidm #107.... just yesterday, after biryani and ankle torturing maghrib prayers, i listened in amazement to a couple of phd`s marvel at how the koran had foretold global warming and measured the temperature of the earth`s core .......join a tafseer class and learn all about big bang and the life cycle of an earthworm ..........``
Hami Dum Dum dum
Man now i know where you r coming from .Do you live among the Arabs of Dearborn or near it ?
You are one messed up theological confusion.<
The Identity Crisis of a Modern Muslim
http://headlines.sify.com/498news2.html
MP teens plan to kill Musharraf, murder boy
as first step
By Sanjay Sharma in BhopalTwo teenagers, driven by their desire to teach a lesson to Pakistan by killing Pervez Musharraf, kidnapped and killed an eight-year-old boy in Shivpuri district of Madhya Pradesh, police said. For 16-year-old Manoj Ojha (Pinku) and 17-year-old Ramnivas Namdev (Rinku,) the kidnapping of 8-year-old Shanu for ransom was a prelude to their preparations to secure arms and then wage their own war on Pakistan. The accused told the police that they were disappointed when India didn`t strike Pakistan after the attack on Parliament. Seeking inspiration from films like Gadar, Indian and Mission Kashmir, they decided on the kidnapping plan to get money to purchase weapons. The story unfolded following the discovery of Shanu`s body and the subsequent arrest of the two minors. Police informed that the two minors were enraged over the attack on the Parliament on December 11 and thus they vowed that they would give a befitting reply to Pakistan by sneaking into Islamabad and killing President Pervez Musharraf. They believed that this could be achieved if they became terrorists. However, since terrorists required arms, which could be bought with money, they devised a plan to kidnap somebody for ransom. The two boys set their eyes on Shanu, the second of the three sons of Rakesh Jain - the owner of the bakery where they worked. On January 11 the duo seized the opportunity when they saw Shanu playing in front of his cousin`s shop. Pinku approached Shanu and offered him some coloured matchboxes provided he met them at the nearby Jain temple. Shanu promptly followed them to the Jain temple on Indore Road where he was taken to a nearby pond, tied up and strangled to death. The body was buried nearby and the duo returned home with the victim`s shoe. The plan was to seek ransom from Shanu`s family by producing the shoe as corroborating evidence. However, Shanu`s disappearance and the subsequent discovery of his body on January 17 not only shook the villagers but also compelled the police to exert pressure on the residents following which the duo surrendered before the police and spilled the beans.
Posted by
Fatimah
Jan 20, 2002 06:05 pm
Hindians& other non muslim attack our Madrssah ,jehad & islam for violence ,but hatred has nothing to do with islam-muslim-or our religion.....even in so called Secular India hatred for islam-muslim-Pakistan run high with or without any madrssah!! http://headlines.sify.com/498news2.html
MP teens plan to kill Musharraf, murder boy
as first step
By Sanjay Sharma in BhopalTwo teenagers, driven by their desire to teach a lesson to Pakistan by killing Pervez Musharraf, kidnapped and killed an eight-year-old boy in Shivpuri district of Madhya Pradesh, police said. For 16-year-old Manoj Ojha (Pinku) and 17-year-old Ramnivas Namdev (Rinku,) the kidnapping of 8-year-old Shanu for ransom was a prelude to their preparations to secure arms and then wage their own war on Pakistan. The accused told the police that they were disappointed when India didn`t strike Pakistan after the attack on Parliament. Seeking inspiration from films like Gadar, Indian and Mission Kashmir, they decided on the kidnapping plan to get money to purchase weapons. The story unfolded following the discovery of Shanu`s body and the subsequent arrest of the two minors. Police informed that the two minors were enraged over the attack on the Parliament on December 11 and thus they vowed that they would give a befitting reply to Pakistan by sneaking into Islamabad and killing President Pervez Musharraf. They believed that this could be achieved if they became terrorists. However, since terrorists required arms, which could be bought with money, they devised a plan to kidnap somebody for ransom. The two boys set their eyes on Shanu, the second of the three sons of Rakesh Jain - the owner of the bakery where they worked. On January 11 the duo seized the opportunity when they saw Shanu playing in front of his cousin`s shop. Pinku approached Shanu and offered him some coloured matchboxes provided he met them at the nearby Jain temple. Shanu promptly followed them to the Jain temple on Indore Road where he was taken to a nearby pond, tied up and strangled to death. The body was buried nearby and the duo returned home with the victim`s shoe. The plan was to seek ransom from Shanu`s family by producing the shoe as corroborating evidence. However, Shanu`s disappearance and the subsequent discovery of his body on January 17 not only shook the villagers but also compelled the police to exert pressure on the residents following which the duo surrendered before the police and spilled the beans.
I Hate Ashley Giles
#22
...hmmm...well, i`m going to hold you up to this...i still say stats wats can be thrown out the window anytime...but now that i think of it you may be on to smt...looks like anwar has decided to join the mullah brigade...sigh...maybe he`ll start scoring at the rate his beard`s growing....
And what exactly have `mullah` done to you ?Whois you role model inthe west among the female ?Jewish girls & catholic Sarah McLoghlin never deride rabbi or pope ?
Posted by
Fatimah
Jan 20, 2002 11:14 am
#22
...hmmm...well, i`m going to hold you up to this...i still say stats wats can be thrown out the window anytime...but now that i think of it you may be on to smt...looks like anwar has decided to join the mullah brigade...sigh...maybe he`ll start scoring at the rate his beard`s growing....
And what exactly have `mullah` done to you ?Whois you role model inthe west among the female ?Jewish girls & catholic Sarah McLoghlin never deride rabbi or pope ?
The Significant Unit of War
arjun_m
http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/05/top7.htm
Ahh..the magic of a shirt with a pakistani flag
200 Pakistanis still in US jails
WASHINGTON, Jan 4: The exact number and names of Pakistanis detained by US authorities since the Sept 11 attacks still remain undisclosed, but Pakistan embassy sources here believe that nearly 200 nationals continue to be in custody. ...
--------
Its more of SHAME of American stand of freedom & democracy than guilt of Pakistanis.
t gives mor reason for muslim-Islam_ Pakistans duality of dictatorship
with democracy ,fredom with borders & limits ,& everything that only true muslims can explain .
Posted by
Fatimah
Jan 6, 2002 01:12 am
#: 37 arjun_m
http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/05/top7.htm
Ahh..the magic of a shirt with a pakistani flag
200 Pakistanis still in US jails
WASHINGTON, Jan 4: The exact number and names of Pakistanis detained by US authorities since the Sept 11 attacks still remain undisclosed, but Pakistan embassy sources here believe that nearly 200 nationals continue to be in custody. ...
--------
Its more of SHAME of American stand of freedom & democracy than guilt of Pakistanis.
t gives mor reason for muslim-Islam_ Pakistans duality of dictatorship
with democracy ,fredom with borders & limits ,& everything that only true muslims can explain .
Is Jehad Passe’?
Re Fatimah (#109):
In a brief response to your post … yes, both shia and sunni Muslim sects believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the final, last prophet. Ahmadi-Muslims disagree with both sects in this interpretation.
Since I follow Quran where Allah has chosen the word “Islam” for my faith, I consider myself a Muslim. Therefore I cannot accept as valid any claims calling me a non-Muslim. Discrimination against Ahmadis, or any other sect, or religion has basis in Islam.
AsadSb.
Assalam Aleikum
Whereas i wanted to dileanate the crux of difference ,I would be telling lie if i meant DISCRIMINATING against you,Ahmedie or any other religion judeaism,zorasthtreianism,christianity ,Hindu ....you name it .
There is lot of maliceous hate being spread against muslims by Hindians mostly by implying that Muslims ENDORSE discrimination against non muslims & other religions.You perhaps can do me a favour to explain from Ahmedie victim point of view that muslims as a majority ,do not have anything against Ahmedie or any non muslims by religion.
Posted by
Fatimah
Dec 29, 2001 10:28 pm
Sattar2 #119 #120Re Fatimah (#109):
In a brief response to your post … yes, both shia and sunni Muslim sects believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the final, last prophet. Ahmadi-Muslims disagree with both sects in this interpretation.
Since I follow Quran where Allah has chosen the word “Islam” for my faith, I consider myself a Muslim. Therefore I cannot accept as valid any claims calling me a non-Muslim. Discrimination against Ahmadis, or any other sect, or religion has basis in Islam.
AsadSb.
Assalam Aleikum
Whereas i wanted to dileanate the crux of difference ,I would be telling lie if i meant DISCRIMINATING against you,Ahmedie or any other religion judeaism,zorasthtreianism,christianity ,Hindu ....you name it .
There is lot of maliceous hate being spread against muslims by Hindians mostly by implying that Muslims ENDORSE discrimination against non muslims & other religions.You perhaps can do me a favour to explain from Ahmedie victim point of view that muslims as a majority ,do not have anything against Ahmedie or any non muslims by religion.
Is Jehad Passe’?
sattar2------Re Fatimah (#90):
``It is unfair of you to accuse me of double talk. Clearly you have misunderstood my posts and were too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.``
I am only educating MYSELF.So tell me do you agree or not that both shia & sunni two major sect of muslims believe Mohommed is the FINAL (last)prophet .......Yes or No
If No then we have problem
If YES ...then you must not `fight`discrimination as being mainstream muslim.
WE do not have luxury of self interpreting b/c it is not syllabus or course material of university which we are more used to study.
Posted by
Fatimah
Dec 28, 2001 02:37 am
#: 103 sattar2------Re Fatimah (#90):
``It is unfair of you to accuse me of double talk. Clearly you have misunderstood my posts and were too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.``
I am only educating MYSELF.So tell me do you agree or not that both shia & sunni two major sect of muslims believe Mohommed is the FINAL (last)prophet .......Yes or No
If No then we have problem
If YES ...then you must not `fight`discrimination as being mainstream muslim.
WE do not have luxury of self interpreting b/c it is not syllabus or course material of university which we are more used to study.
Is Jehad Passe’?
``SAMIR JB
2. Brand Barelvis and Shias as non-Muslims.
1. Brand Deobandis and Wahabis as non-Muslims.``
-------
Another crack pot idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AnNy you r non muslim declared so by your Saheb Jaan
Posted by
Fatimah
Dec 28, 2001 02:37 am
#98``SAMIR JB
2. Brand Barelvis and Shias as non-Muslims.
1. Brand Deobandis and Wahabis as non-Muslims.``
-------
Another crack pot idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AnNy you r non muslim declared so by your Saheb Jaan
Is Jehad Passe’?
SATTAR #79
....As an Ahmadi-Muslim I would like to point out that Ahmadis believe in the kalima, in Quran as the final and perfect word of Allah, in the status of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as “khattam-un-Nabiyeen”, in other prophets and scriptures, in angels, in the day of judgment, and in all other articles of faith. They pray like other Muslims, recite Quran, pay zakat, fast during Ramadan, offer Haj, and more.....``
Asad Sb.
Iam sorry to learn that the only Ahmediya that corresponded openly here ,shows double talk on this forum.On the thread now in the back stage from the front page ,you discuss with NASAH explaining that in Koran Mohommed is not said to be the final prophet & you dont believe so too b/c you consider Koran as your imaan
Here to Sunni audience on front page you say you ``Mohommdur rasool allah ``therefore you believe in finality of prophet .What is it ?
Posted by
Fatimah
Dec 27, 2001 01:57 pm
SATTAR #79
....As an Ahmadi-Muslim I would like to point out that Ahmadis believe in the kalima, in Quran as the final and perfect word of Allah, in the status of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as “khattam-un-Nabiyeen”, in other prophets and scriptures, in angels, in the day of judgment, and in all other articles of faith. They pray like other Muslims, recite Quran, pay zakat, fast during Ramadan, offer Haj, and more.....``
Asad Sb.
Iam sorry to learn that the only Ahmediya that corresponded openly here ,shows double talk on this forum.On the thread now in the back stage from the front page ,you discuss with NASAH explaining that in Koran Mohommed is not said to be the final prophet & you dont believe so too b/c you consider Koran as your imaan
Here to Sunni audience on front page you say you ``Mohommdur rasool allah ``therefore you believe in finality of prophet .What is it ?
Muslims and The West After 11th September
Special Dispatch 312 – Jordan December 12, 2001
Former Chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association Criticizes U.S. National Security
Advisor
Condoleezza Rice`s Comments on Treatment of Women
in the Muslim
World The London Arabic-language daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi recently published an article by the former chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association, Dr. Tareq Tahboub: [1] American Women Are Humiliated More Than Afghan Women
``What pushed me to write this article was the interview with U.S. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice on CNN. Asked by Wolf Blitzer about the situation of women in Afghanistan, the advisor spoke powerfully and in great detail about the situation of women in Islamic countries, primarily Saudi Arabia, and about how America cannot agree to the humiliation of women in the Islamic world.`` ``The advisor forgot that the living example of humiliation of women in the twenty-first century is Hillary Clinton, whose husband fed her all kinds of degradation and humiliation, to the point where she was forced to lie in front of television cameras in order to defend him and his perverted relationships. She testified that he was `innocent` of Monica and Paula – as the wolf is innocent of the blood of [Joseph], the son of Jacob [whose brothers threw him into a pit to be rid of him and claimed that an `evil beast` had devoured him].`` ``The advisor also forgot to mention that the White House files proved that Nixon`s wife suffered a tear in her retina as a result of a severe blow she received from her husband.`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the systematic rape of a freshman university female student [in America], as was proven in documentary and feature films telling true stories. The last of these films, broadcast a month ago on Jordanian television, presented the true story of a student and her friends who were raped by members of a fraternity headed by her brother. The epilogue said that most young American women are raped at university. Eighty-seven percent of rapes are carried out during freshman year, by their classmates, at student parties. They get the girls drunk with a drink said to be fruit juice (punch) but which is actually mixed with alcohol. The exacerbation of this problem led to the establishment of legal and psychiatric departments at the universities to handle this phenomenon, which has reached epidemic proportions.`` ``Where are women`s rights, when their statistics show that one in every three American women is raped – in addition to sexual harassment in the workplace, and even on the part of generals in the military, during their hours of rest from bombing Iraq and Afghanistan?`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the fashion shows [catwalks] or beauty pageants, in which the so-called beauty queens are stripped before the hungry eyes of men so that their internal measurements around the bust and hips can be taken, as if they were calves at a cattle auction?`` ``What humiliation – and I quote from the article of Mr. Muwfaq Mahaddin, the leftist journalist from the [Jordanian paper] Al-Arab Al-Youm, who demanded that the labor unions and parties [in Jordan] donate money for oppressed British women – could be greater than the results of a poll conducted recently by one of the papers, that showed that the British man has an average of five extramarital lovers? [Not to mention] what Alan Clark, defense secretary in the Thatcher government, did – he admitted that he had slept with three generations – a girl, her mother, and her grandmother – in his office in the British Defense Ministry, as published in the Daily Mirror.`` Violence Against Women in the U.S.
``What domestic violence are they talking about, when British police statistics show more than a million incidents of domestic violence annually? What children`s rights are they demanding, when in America alone, a quarter of a million children are killed every year by aborting unwanted fetuses – something that has pushed Americans with a conscience to blow up some of the clinics in which they carry out this kind of murder and kill some of the doctors working in this area? What children`s rights are they talking about, when pedophilia is legal on the Internet and the networks of this perversion reach from Thailand to Australia – a general epidemic from which not even the Church was spared.`` ``Our advice to the advisor is to look at herself before she tries to force her principles and opinions on others. We have suffered enough from the American way of life forced upon us by the media and marketing of the American model.`` ``The Greatest Damage is Western Television``
``The damages [caused by] the American model are not limited to burgers, cola, and Marlboro, which most cannot buy as a result of widespread poverty in the Islamic world. The gravest damage is television, something that almost no home, rich or poor, lives without. When dinnertime comes (which is the Arab/Muslim family`s traditional hour for meeting in the Islamic world), everyone eats in front of the television, with no conversation developing among the members of the family. When Mickey Mouse comes on, the children throw their food on the floor. Children are also influenced by depictions of violence in cartoons. Thus, family life is being abolished… Nevertheless, Islam and even the Muslims are accused of terrorism, although they make up 82% of the exiles and refugees in the world…`` [1] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), December 7, 2001.
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Posted by
Fatimah
Dec 21, 2001 04:54 pm
htp://www.memri.org/sd/SP31201.htmlSpecial Dispatch 312 – Jordan December 12, 2001
Former Chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association Criticizes U.S. National Security
Advisor
Condoleezza Rice`s Comments on Treatment of Women
in the Muslim
World The London Arabic-language daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi recently published an article by the former chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association, Dr. Tareq Tahboub: [1] American Women Are Humiliated More Than Afghan Women
``What pushed me to write this article was the interview with U.S. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice on CNN. Asked by Wolf Blitzer about the situation of women in Afghanistan, the advisor spoke powerfully and in great detail about the situation of women in Islamic countries, primarily Saudi Arabia, and about how America cannot agree to the humiliation of women in the Islamic world.`` ``The advisor forgot that the living example of humiliation of women in the twenty-first century is Hillary Clinton, whose husband fed her all kinds of degradation and humiliation, to the point where she was forced to lie in front of television cameras in order to defend him and his perverted relationships. She testified that he was `innocent` of Monica and Paula – as the wolf is innocent of the blood of [Joseph], the son of Jacob [whose brothers threw him into a pit to be rid of him and claimed that an `evil beast` had devoured him].`` ``The advisor also forgot to mention that the White House files proved that Nixon`s wife suffered a tear in her retina as a result of a severe blow she received from her husband.`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the systematic rape of a freshman university female student [in America], as was proven in documentary and feature films telling true stories. The last of these films, broadcast a month ago on Jordanian television, presented the true story of a student and her friends who were raped by members of a fraternity headed by her brother. The epilogue said that most young American women are raped at university. Eighty-seven percent of rapes are carried out during freshman year, by their classmates, at student parties. They get the girls drunk with a drink said to be fruit juice (punch) but which is actually mixed with alcohol. The exacerbation of this problem led to the establishment of legal and psychiatric departments at the universities to handle this phenomenon, which has reached epidemic proportions.`` ``Where are women`s rights, when their statistics show that one in every three American women is raped – in addition to sexual harassment in the workplace, and even on the part of generals in the military, during their hours of rest from bombing Iraq and Afghanistan?`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the fashion shows [catwalks] or beauty pageants, in which the so-called beauty queens are stripped before the hungry eyes of men so that their internal measurements around the bust and hips can be taken, as if they were calves at a cattle auction?`` ``What humiliation – and I quote from the article of Mr. Muwfaq Mahaddin, the leftist journalist from the [Jordanian paper] Al-Arab Al-Youm, who demanded that the labor unions and parties [in Jordan] donate money for oppressed British women – could be greater than the results of a poll conducted recently by one of the papers, that showed that the British man has an average of five extramarital lovers? [Not to mention] what Alan Clark, defense secretary in the Thatcher government, did – he admitted that he had slept with three generations – a girl, her mother, and her grandmother – in his office in the British Defense Ministry, as published in the Daily Mirror.`` Violence Against Women in the U.S.
``What domestic violence are they talking about, when British police statistics show more than a million incidents of domestic violence annually? What children`s rights are they demanding, when in America alone, a quarter of a million children are killed every year by aborting unwanted fetuses – something that has pushed Americans with a conscience to blow up some of the clinics in which they carry out this kind of murder and kill some of the doctors working in this area? What children`s rights are they talking about, when pedophilia is legal on the Internet and the networks of this perversion reach from Thailand to Australia – a general epidemic from which not even the Church was spared.`` ``Our advice to the advisor is to look at herself before she tries to force her principles and opinions on others. We have suffered enough from the American way of life forced upon us by the media and marketing of the American model.`` ``The Greatest Damage is Western Television``
``The damages [caused by] the American model are not limited to burgers, cola, and Marlboro, which most cannot buy as a result of widespread poverty in the Islamic world. The gravest damage is television, something that almost no home, rich or poor, lives without. When dinnertime comes (which is the Arab/Muslim family`s traditional hour for meeting in the Islamic world), everyone eats in front of the television, with no conversation developing among the members of the family. When Mickey Mouse comes on, the children throw their food on the floor. Children are also influenced by depictions of violence in cartoons. Thus, family life is being abolished… Nevertheless, Islam and even the Muslims are accused of terrorism, although they make up 82% of the exiles and refugees in the world…`` [1] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), December 7, 2001.
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