Peace in South Asia Ref ylh #: 293

[The words used in Wolpert’s quote: ‘Few’, ‘Fewer still’ and ‘Hardly anyone’ doesn’t suggest ‘no one’ does it ? That you/gymnophist gave a counter example of Mongolia proves one of two things:

1) Either you/Gymnophist are weak at English Language comprehension. (This is a strong possibility given the sheer number of misquotes you do.)

2) Or you/Gymnophist have an IQ less than room temperature on a Cold December night in the North Pole.

Which one is it? And are you using iodized salt? If not why not?]

The words of Stanley Wolpert that you quote are:

`Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three.`

Merriam-Webster (you know, the dictionary) shows the following response:

One entry found for hardly.

Main Entry: hard·ly

Pronunciation: `härd-lE

Function: adverb

Date: before 12th century

1 : with force : VIGOROUSLY

2 : in a severe manner : HARSHLY

3 : with difficulty : PAINFULLY

4 a -- used to emphasize a minimal amount (I hardly knew her) (almost new -- hardly a scratch on it) b -- used to soften a negative (you can`t hardly tell who anyone is -- G. B. Shaw)

5 : certainly not (that news is hardly surprising)

When you substitute that last meaning, Wolpert seems to have said, ``Certainly not anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three.``

Since Mongolia broke free from China much before Jinnah had dreams of Pakistan, one can charitably say that Wolpert was being kind to Jinnah.

Since Aug 1947, several others have followed the Jinnah model of ethnic cleansing to create new countries, to wit, Tudjman of Croatia and Milosevic of Serbia. These men had the brains to EXPEL Muslims, thus properly applying the lessons of Jinnah.

The award for the height of stupidity goes to Suharto for expelling Christians and still LOSING East Timor.

As for my IQ, I am not the one who went to Rutgers.

Now, I suggest that you confine your remarks to those who wish to interact with you and leave me to my retirement from active participation in Chowk.

With warmest regards and best wishes for a happy stay in Camellia,

I remain

Your devoted servant.

The Place of Debate All of you decrying the dearth of Muslims in IITs, IIMs, etc. When I went to college in Kerala, we had plenty of classmates from all three major religions: Christians, Muslims and Hindus. In fact, when I checked on the faculty during my last visit to the college, there were quite a few Muslim lecturers and assistant professors on the faculty, several with PhDs.

I guess if you don`t have any of the psychosocial babble associated with the Muslim angst, then Muslims do quite well for themselves, thank you very much. The Kerala Muslims are quite proud of the fact that thay are Malayalees, Indians and Muslims, all rolled into one. They don`t learn Urdu, they learn Arabic so that they can read the Koran. All of you dispossessed nawabs of UP can bemoan the loss of primacy of Urdu. The Malayalee and Tamil Muslims had and still have no use for that coarse language of the army camps.

The Kerala Muslims are also proud of the fact some of them have connections to famous personages. The most recent one was a guy in Calicut claiming to be the fourth cousin of Muhammad Aidid, the warlord of Somalia. When you compare that to the fact that most Pakistanis like to claim direct descent from the Prophet or from Taimur Leng, you start appreciating the Malayalee Muslims for keeping their feet on the ground, their nose to the grindstone, and achieving side by side with their Hindu and Christian neighbors.

Buying What Sells Re ali1 #: 12

{Most new arrivals (women) from south hindustan wear shalwar kameez. This I have noticed for the past 2-3 years. Prior to that it used to be saris without petticoat. I don`t remember them coming topless, like Mr. gymnosophist mentioned.}

The tradition of wearing only a mundu and nothing on top probably started disappearing around the beginning of the 20th century. I remember the English writer Aubrey Menon, born to a British mother and an Indian father, writing about his first meeting with his grandmother in Kerala when his grandmother wore only the mundu. I can`t remember the time of this meeting. The practice of going topless prevailed in isolated communities for the first couple of decades of the 20th century.

You are right about the salwar-kameezes that seem to have become the uniform of young Indian women. They probably don`t realize that this dress does absolutely nothing for them. Baggy trousers, ugh! I prefer jeans.

As for saris without petticoats, you must have been wearing those X-ray vision eyeglasses advertised in the backs of some magazines. Girls need the tops of those petticoats to tuck their saris in safely.

Re Ras Siddiqui #: 11

{Some CHOWK readers are not much into clothes and prefer reading without a stitch on.}

Or, have the word `naked` in their names!

Buying What Sells ``I am not going to speak for every state, but speaking for one would be speaking for many others. I`ll speak for Kerala where the saree is indeed not the traditional dress of the Malayalee woman; which comes as a surprise to me considering that it`s the only dress I`ve ever seen my firmly-Malayalee mother wear. The real garb of the Malayalee woman is the rather chic white chatta (short blouse)/rawka- neruyath and mundu(like a sarong) - imagine the possible variations to suit the going trends. And yet only a few Ammas` remain who wear it; that the younger women are never found in it is testimony to their opinion of it. What then, are the other women in Kerala wearing? The saree-a symbol of cultural invasion of what is perceived as the more dominant style and therefore fatuously associated with Indianess itself.``

Agnes, you must do a little bit of historical research before you start describing what the traditional dress of the Malayalee woman is.

Malayalee women used to wear just the `mundu`. No chatta. That concession to (false) modesty was imported from neighboring states. Malayalee women went `topless` long before white women decided to bare it all.

I read about a year ago that in a college in Cochin, there was a question of a dress code for the students. Women voted overwhelmingly for the salwar-kameez on the basis that it was convenient, they could get on crowded public transportation easily without worrying about the state of their saree, etc. Men demanded that the women should wear the traditional saree.

Dumb men, I thought. Why couldn`t they have demanded that women use the mundu and nothing but the mundu?

The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond Ref jay #: 314

[It is a small world. You must be in the I. Raman batch, Kalyana sundaram the fast bowler.]

It indeed is. No, I don`t recall Raman or Kalyanasundaram as my classmates so they must be at least one year junior to me.

[The valley is still there, the vijayan and the canteen is still intact.]

How about Hyder in his thatched hut on the road to Mukkam, the one with a new wife every year? I used to go there to get omelettes.

[The place has created a name for itself and is considered one of the top RECs. Every graduate, even the one yet to complete get jobs by campus recruitment, a very very far cry from my days.]

I was just amazed at the number of PhD programs and their graduates. Frankly, when it started out, it was the runt of the litter (of the 4 southern RECs). Nobody thought anything much would come out of that school. It has acquitted itself extremely well. And its graduates are all over the world.

Don`t complain about your time. Our batch (and the earlier one; we were the second batch to go through the college) had no hostels when we moved to the Chatthamangalam campus and we had cots lined up in one of the buildings meant to be a workshop and there we were, a hundred of us to a building with no privacy whatsoever. We started out sharing space at the Calicut Polytechnic on West Hill and moved out to Chatthamangalam a year and a half later.

[Them of course the IIM Calicut is there for the last four years. At least you can understand, when I heap $hit on pakis, it is from an intimate knowledge of what is possible from a poor rural illiterate background in india, not as an exception, but as rle from the thousand who have passed through the portals of REC, a second rung place in india.]

You are so right. From those extremely small beginnings we have created a fantastic university and an alumni any institution would be proud of. To think that we have one like that in each state in India! RECs may be second rung compared to the IITs but the IITs merely export all their grads to the US. At least some of the REC guys stay back and work in India. One secret: it is very difficult to flunk out of an IIT. It is quite possible to flunk out of the RECs, not because we are second rung but because it is not assumed automatically that you are a genius to have gained admission. The numbers are etched in my mind: the number of students graduating in the First Class in 1967 were 2 in Civil Engineering, 12 in Mechanical Engineering and 22 in Electrical Engineering. That is in the entire University of Kerala covering the whole state, not just REC, Kozhikode. We used to be really worried about the final exams.

I understand the REC in Srinagar is thoroughly screwed up. The guys are on strike demanding independence from India. Well, if they want to give up their entire career and the well-being of themselves and their progeny, they are welcome to it. Behaving like the latent Pakistanis that they are!

The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond Ref jay #: 296

[gymno

You never sounded such a veteran. I am three years after you.]

Three years ahead of you makes me a veteran? I skipped a couple of years in school so you are at the most just a year younger than me! I probably ragged you when you joined REC.

Were you with the same batch which included VV Giri`s (then Governor of Kerala, latter President of India) grandson? Sheesh, we ragged him too. None of you were exempt.

You won`t believe it but I visited REC in Sept 2000 after a lapse of 20+ years. One of my EE professors who hadn`t yet retired still remembered me!

Regards. And keep needling our neighbors across the border.

The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond Ref jay #: 296

[gymno

You never sounded such a veteran. I am three years after you.]

Three years ahead of you makes me a veteran? I skipped a couple of years in school so you are at the most just a year younger than me! I probably ragged you when you joined REC.

Were you with the same batch which included VV Giri`s (then Governor of Kerala, latter President of India) grandson? Sheesh, we ragged him too. None of you were exempt.

You won`t believe it but I visited REC in Sept 2000 after a lapse of 20+ years. One of my EE professors who hadn`t yet retired still remembered me!

Regards. And keep needling our neighbors across the border.

The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond Re jay #: 165

{I can never stop quoting about my class mate, we walked one hour to go to a primary school in kerala, we ``encountered`` electricity for the first time in the hostels of REC}

Which REC and what year did you graduate? I went to REC, Kozhikode, graduating in 1967.

America’s Responsibility Re DRUMZ #: 239

{When I say most of them are sophisticated fools Itz no joke. Anny, check that word out. Its root word comes from the sophists who were greek pseudo intellectuals bent on making Illogical arguements appear ``right.``}

If `sophist` means `pseudo-intellectual` as opposed to `philosopher`, I have to change my handle after close to two years on Chowk.

Sigh....What do you recommend?

The Significant Unit of War Re ylh #: 186

[You have never quoted anything from any book to shut me up. Dont flatter yourself. As everyone saw, you quoted selectively from the Book `Great divide` while we were talking about Jinnah (on an article about the man)... a man who that book holds in greatest esteem. You started posting irrelevant quotes from the same book, which in no way proved any of your arguments albeit in your own twisted sense of reality. Sadly I lost the book, before I could counter your false claims.]

False claims? What false claims? You lost the book? How did that happen? In that case, why didn`t you go to some public library and get a copy?

The fact is Hodson makes it very clear that Jinnah planted Shah Nawaz Bhutto as the Dewan of Junagadh, and he was going to use Junagadh as a pawn to see which of the two Princely states, Hyderabad or Kashmir, he could get based on how India treated Junagadh: meaning, if Muslim-ruled Hindu state of Junagadh can join Pakistan, so can Hyderabad; if instead it had to join India, then so should Kashmir join Pakistan. If all of you Pakistanis felt that Kashmir was rightfully yours, why the need for this elaborate drama and why the need to send in the Pathan tribesmen to conquer Kashmir?

[The book by H V Hodson in the final analysis is the strongest possible evidence in Pakistan`s case on Kashmir.]

Not at all. That is why you refuse to summarize the three chapters on Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir.

[You and your other alias Harimau have tried to quote him selectively to prove something that is a complete travesty of the facts.]

I don`t need aliases. The other gentleman(?) would have called you a blathering idiot and a few choice maa-ki-gaalis which, if you notice, I refrain from using.

[TEXT of the Plebiscite says:

``When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned``

700, 000 is a minimum?]

Was there 700,000 in 1985? No. Was there 700,000 in 1947? No. Was there 700,000 in 1965? No.

So ask yourself what caused the increase in troop strength.

Since the Security Council resolution says ``the strength needed to maintain public order`` or words to that effect, and since 700,000 is NOT enough to maintain peace, you should have no complaints if India sends 2 million men to police the territory.

Your selective quotes deleted. Here is the complete text of the last Security Council Resolution:

[Begin]

UN Resolution 13 August 1948

*RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN ON 13 AUGUST 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/1100, PARA 75, DATED THE 9TH NOVEMBER, 1948)

THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN

Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the Representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and

Being of the opinion that the prompt cessation of hostilities and the coercion of conditions the continuance of which is likely to endanger international peace and security are essential to implementation of its endeavors to assist the Governments of India and Pakistan in effecting a final settlement of the situation.

Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal

PART I

CEASE-FIRE ORDER

A.The Governments of India and Pakistan agree that their respective High Commands will issue separately and simultaneously a cease- fire order to apply to all forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as of the earliest practicable date or dates to be mutually agreed upon within four days after these proposals have been accepted by both Governments.

B.The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals ``forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides).

C.The Commanders-in-Chief of the Forces of India and Pakistan shall promptly confer regarding any necessary local changes in present dispositions which may facilitate the cease-fire.

D.In its discretions and as the Commission may find practicable, the Commission will appoint military observers who under the authority of the Commission and with the co-operation of both Commands will supervise the observance of the cease-fire order.

E.The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan agree to appeal to their respective peoples to assist in creating and maintaining an atmosphere favorable to the promotion of further negotiations.

PART II

TRUCE AGREEMENT

Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.

A.(l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.

B.(1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission

(2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the Commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.

(3) The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within their power to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human and political rights will be guaranteed.

C.(1) Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communiqué containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.

PART III

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people and to that end, upon acceptance of the Truce Agreement both Governments agree to enter into consultations with the Commission to determine fair and equitable conditions whereby such free expression will be assured.

*The UNCIP unanimously adopted this Resolution on 13-8-1948.

Members of the Commission: Argentina. Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and U.S.A.

[End]

Part II (A) (1) says Pakistan agrees to withdraw its armed forces. Get Musharraf to do that first before you ask for implementation of other steps.

By the way, you also quote the book ``The Sole Spokesman`` to ``prove`` that Jinnah was using the demand for Pakistan only to get more safeguards for Muslims in a United India and that Partition was forced upon him by the Congress and the Gandhi-Nehru clique. On the other hand, your other major authority on Pakistan and Jinnah, Prof. Stanley Wolpert, said in his speech in Karachi that Jinnah was determined to create a Muslim homeland and the demand for Pakistan was NOT a bargaining chip. (Mahim Maher reported on his speech in last Friday`s `The Friday Times` and somebody posted the article in its entirety on Chowk.) So tell me, my young friend, who is right - Ayesha Jalal or Stanley Wolpert?

No matter how much you attempt to whitewash Jinnah, all his quirkiness is there for everyone to see. That wonderful Lincoln Inn-trained barrister got his arguments for Partition of India turned against him so that he got a partitioned Punjab and Bengal and very little of Assam. The great constitutionalist, as Wolpert called him in his Karachi speech, said that his Prime Minister will take orders from him though he was only the constitutional head of government as Governor General. The man you all claim to be the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity claimed Muslims are a separate nation unable to live with Hindus. And that crap about, “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammed Ali Jinnah did all three.” that you always quote: let me remind you once again that it was done in Mongolia in 1924 by Sukhe Bator. And that country has held together better than Pakistan. So much for Jinnah.

The Significant Unit of War Re ylh #: 144

[Bring a UN resolution on Sindh, Punjab, Baluchistan, and NWFP, and we will hold a plebiscite there... ]

No, ylh. Just read the UN Security Council resolution on Kashmir carefully.

It calls for the withdrawal of all Pakistani troops, and gives India the right to station its troops sufficient to maintain order in ALL of Kashmir including what you call Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas.

So, first get all Pakistani troops out of your part of Kashmir and hand over the territory to India and THEN ask for a plebiscite.

Until then, we will have to think that you interpret the resolution selectively.

Tell me, by quoting the resolution verbatim, that the UN did not require Pakistan to withdraw its troops. If you can`t prove it, shut up about the plebiscite.

[This plebiscite was never accorded to Kashmir as it was a princely state.]

Which of the princely states had a plebiscite? None. It was the signature of the ruler on the Instrument of Accession that decided which country it would join.

[then let me remind Indians that Junagadh and Hyderabad India belong to Pakistan, since Junagadh`s ruler signed an accession document to Pakistan, and Hyderabad`s ruler was forced to change his mind by the Indian occupation army.]

I think enough has been posted on Junagadh and Hyderabad. The Nizam of Hyderabad was ``forced`` to change his mind BEFORE he signed any document acceding to Pakistan.

The Nawab of Junagadh was told by his Dewan, (a drum roll here please) the great Shah Nawaz Bhutto, to withdraw his accession to Pakistan and join India instead. This is the same guy who was placed as Dewan while the Nawab was vacationing in Europe by the conniving Jinnah.

Remember HV Hodson and his book ``The Great Divide``? Remember how you used to always cite the book in your posts whereas I used to post extracts from it to shut you up? Remember when I asked you to post summaries of the three chapters on Junagadh, Kashmir and Hyderabad just as school was closing a year ago and you still haven`t done it?

[Am I to argue with feeble minded children forever?]

Yes, because you are a feeble-minded adult. A pediatrician would diagnose developmental disabilities in you.

Every prayer has an invocatory phrase. Almost like saying ``Bismillah ur-Rahman Ur-Rahim``. So before you say ``Plebiscite in Kashmir`` again, say ``Withdrawal of Paki troops``.

Indian Diplomacy : Time To Recheck Ref 12-head-Shah #: 10

[Do they want the Muslims to create a replica of Kaba in India & perform Haj there?]

No, neither the Hindus nor the BJP nor the Vishwa Hindu Parishad nor the Bajrang Dal want Indian Muslims to create a replica of Kaaba in India and perform Haj there.

However, the people who want to do it and who have been doing it for close to a century are Indian Muslims.

Please go to the following website:

http://kamrup.nic.in/

and read about:

``Poa Macca: At Hajo itself, a place of pilgrimage for the Muslim. It is believed that by offering prayer here a faithful gains one fourth spiritual enlightenment of what could be gained at Macca. Hence the name.``

Elsewhere I have read that Pao Mecca was built on holy sand brought from Mecca itself by earlier pilgrims. This was a time when the Haj pilgrimage would take two years to complete because of lack of road and transportation facilities. The Muslims of Assam who made the pilgrimage resolved to do something for their fellow Muslims who could not afford to perform the Haj; they brought back bags of Meccan sand and built a mosque on grounds where the Meccan sand was spread. They associated this mosque with the holiness of Mecca itself and named it Pao Mecca.

As a Hindu, I can understand why Indian Muslims would consider this mosque holy and would want to make a pilgrimage to this site. After all, as Aryan migrants into India, we have deliberately practiced collective amnesia so that our holiest places are associated today only with India and not any place outside of it. Our holiest river today is the Ganges, not the Indus; our holiest confluence is Prayag. In that sense, we can understand the motivation of those earlier Haj pilgrims who, against great odds, brought back Meccan soil to form the foundation of Pao Mecca.

You, on the other hand, will disagree and consider these simple humble Muslims to be nothing but kaffirs.

Therein lies the difference between the pious and the bigoted.

In Search of the Moderate Muslim Ref Stuka #: 390

[``Hats off to the 10,000 Delhi `untouchables` who converted to Buddhism over the weekend``

Yeah, but poor chaps won`t be able to eat meat anymore. Might as well become Christian, at least you`re allowed to eat and drink what you want.]

Also, something to be said for living in the 20th/21st century. It was reported that a convert to Christianity in the 19th century refused to sit at the same table with other converts saying, ``I may have changed my religion but I haven`t changed my caste.`` (In those days, people of different castes did not eat together.)

In Search of the Moderate Muslim Ref Jay #: 318

d[One of the rulers of kerala, Cheraman Perumal distributed all his wealth, went to saudi, converted to islam, and married a close relative, some say the sister of the man himself. It is said in history books of kerala that his tomb is still there and is preserved by the saudis.]

Didn`t hear the story of Cheraman Perumal when I was in Kerala.

[keralites also claim that St thomas, the asal deciple of christ came to kerala and converted the hindus. So the christians and muslims of kerala are as old as any where else.]

There was actually a documentary on PBS. One Englishman decided to trace the path of St. Thomas the Apostle through Kerala and Tamil Nadu and filmed his journey through South India. St. Thomas is believed to be buried at St. Thomas`s Mount in Madras. The Kerala Christians do not belong to either the Roman Catholic Church or the various Protestant denominations. Theirs is the Mar Thoma Syrian Orthodox Church, which even used to ask the Patriarch of Antioch to nominate their Metropolitan (Archbishop) when the old one died. So there is considerable evidence that Christianity in Kerala is very ancient.

Also, the Jews landed in Kerala in 297 AD at Cranganore. They were received by the local King and granted a charter (inscribed in copper plates) that granted them freedom of worship. One of their synagogues, built in 1600, still stands in Cochin and Jew Town in Cochin is now the spice trading center of the area.

India’s Communal Gamble Ref Zafar #304:

[But I will certainly keep my eye out for any Turkish/other Meditterranean ladies on your behalf - please do send details so that I can circulate here. (My flatmate is from Cyprus, but Greek. How about somebody from there? Also many Lebanese people here in Sydney.)]

I once met a Greek(mother)/Turkish(father) girl in Denver. Golden hair and flawless golden skin; she was breathtakingly beautiful.

Go for it, guys!

PS. Was it Emperor Chandragupta Maurya who was given a Greek girl in marriage? Lucky dude!

My Last Chappu Ref Eklavya #: 155

[I have found that, at least in my field, being an Indian has brought me respect, even if I thought it was not always fully deserved. As an Indian, I am expected to be an ace mathematician, super scientist, and awesome anlytic thinker all rolled in one. A bit daunting sometimes, but fun for the most part.]

No sh!t, eh? So when are you going to be nominated for the Nobel Prize or the Fields Medal? Now, if only you could solve the problems of hunger and war next and bring on world peace, we could all fall down on our knees and worship you as the next Messiah.

And all that out of where -- Columbus, OH, or some other cowtown in the midwest? Awesome, dude, just awesome!

[I can say with complete confidence that I have never faced any significant amoount of discrimination. For that I must give the US of A credit.]

That is right. Right now, you are shovelling intellectual sh!t and are just amazed that they would trust you with so much responsibility at such a young age. What are you doing -- maybe writing some Cobol programs for an insurance application? You puff up your chest with pride at the thought that millions of insurance claims forms are processed flawlessly by the programs you have written. That is really what the world go around the Sun, isn`t it?