Dissing Ideologies Alphanell

``It may just be that Zia Ahmed`s opinion expresses home truths that Pakistan`s entire national machinery of ideological indoctrination has worked for fifty years to suppress. This is a courageous exercise of Freedom of Conscience for which the author ought to be saluted and applauded, not castigated and abused.``

Will you then rise to applaud the captive Kashmiri? Don`t he and she struggle for conscience? Ideological indoctrination? of course Indians will not own upto to any such vile thing as indoctrination - The occupation and murders in kashmir are not the result of ideological indoctrination? Denying the captive Kashmiri freedom to decide by employing 700,000 occupation forces is not as a result of ideological indoctrination? Shame on you!

Freedom of someone else`s conscience is the test of the meaning of freedom of conscience - however; for sane persons, it is a requirement that conscience be appealed to - Mr. Ahmed point that our slums look alike has as much relevance as saying that they also look like slums in Brazil and Mexico and Congo - Mr. Ahmed makes no appeal to conscience of Pakistanis and Indian AND captive Kashmiris, instead he suggests we leave the Kashmiri to Indian occupation forces; no solutions, no intermediate proposals are offered for exploration, instead it is a restatement of a ``sentiment``. While it is imperative to change the nature and language of the struggle in captive Kashmir from one of armed resistance and a language infused with religious imagery and obligation, to one primarily, political in scope - should we lose sight that it is the captive Kashmiri primarily who will continue to suffer.

Mr. Ahmed and indeed a substantial number of persons who interact on Chowk, continue to offer Chowkies the vision that between Pakistanis and Indians there exist more in common than not - this state of affairs can never be more than a blurred vision, unless we are hard nosed about the fact that we have real problems - that they are not easy to solve, that there exist a number of ambitions that do not necessarily conform to ``Pakistani`` and ``Indian`` (whatever these may mean) ambitions and visions, that these ambitions have their own vision of how they will fit into or not, in Pakistan or India.

What did saying our slums look alike achieve? making idiotic statements imagined as conscience is not an appeal to conscience, but is pandering.

I urge you to better understand the concept of freedom of conscience - not as a merely words, which, you seem to regard them as. Freedom of conscience must have as a requirement, by definition an appeal to conscience. abandoning the captive Kashmiri is no an appeal to conscience, rather it is the wilful surrender of conscience - an act not without implications for the conscience of the nation.

Roohi

Lots of great question - you should look for answers that will satisfy you. As for my understanding of TNT - I think both Hindus and Muslims found it terribly convenient. Even today, fascist Hindus refer to Indian Muslims as Pakistanis.

The common refrain from the Indians is to say well you have such and such a problem in Pakistan - I have little patience for this kind of obfuscation.

Dissing Ideologies Shankar

``Why dont you spend your time more productively & ponder why Pakistani society is so morally neutered DESPITE having the advantage of being Islamic?!``

Morally Neutered? Pakistani society? Yes, Pakistani society is morally neutered - however; it is not because it is in any way ``Islamic``.

Quite the opposite is true, what we have in Pakistan is Obscuritanism, not Islam. Every vulgar defilement of man and God in Pakistan is called ``Islamic`` - I, for one, reject this obscuritanism as Islam or Islamic.

As for dying and etc, etc - grow up! You say you are a grown man and a professional - Ok - behave and write like one.

DIL’s Caravan of Hope Temporal

Thanks for the links.

Refugees of A Refugee Camp

Romair

``Everytime I see Palestinian representatives on TV, I get scared.``

Not just the Palestinians, but also the Pakistanis, actually, in general, any official representatives from any country in which Muslims are a majority. They seem to be totally out of step, out of tune, with communication techniques; especially out of tune with American or Western sensibilities and are particularly inept at using these sensibilities to get their point across.

Dissing Ideologies Zia Ahmed

Why are you and those you agree with you wasting time and money in Pakistan? Get the first bus, train, airplane and get yourself to India - there you will find not two nation theory - you might want to avoid Gujjrat as a whole.

You are a moron - Mr. Mushraffar has expressed that the armed forces are prepared to shed their last drop of blood in the defense of Pakistan - as for scum such as yourself - you need not worry about anybody`s blood other than your own - you getting my drift?

Kashmir may not run in your blood - you died and said you could speak for the rest of Pakistan?

And slums in Bombay look like those in Karachi, but they also look like the ones in Colombia and Brazil - Slums look alike? Is this the sum of your wisdom? IDIOT!

No examination of the problems, no discussion of possible solutions - no new paradigm - but you morons don`t need these complexities - they are boring and make your head hurt - easier to bad moouth Musharraf and the armed forces you ensure you continue to have the right to mouth off -Your Indians in Gujjrat and in captive Kashmir are paying for that right with their blood - I know, I know, their blood does not run in yours either.

DIL’s Caravan of Hope Amir Ansari

In my opinion, the school milk and lunch program will not fund will become feaseable with donations from persons in the US.

Ignorance, especially, ignorance that is supported by religious obscuritanists is a cancer eating Pakistani society. in my opinion, we cannot begin to make a dent in the hold the obscuritanists have gained, without education.

Zeemax

Will you please give us more details on the Agha khan development model?

DIL’s Caravan of Hope Dear Mr. Siddiqui:

Bravo to both the men and women of DIL and to yourself for bringing this organization to the attention of Chowkies.

Incredible as it seems, 5 years of primary education for a child can be secured for $200. One may sponsor an entire school for $1000.

But how does one ensure that the schools have blackboards, chairs or benches or desks or libraries and most importantly that the children will have books and supplies?

Inshallah, a milk and lunch program will be considered.

The Perfect Murder

YLH

So good to hear from you and not so good to hear that you may not pursue or delay higher education. But a couple of years of experience can`t hurt and Mashallah you are young - of course you can take some courses in Pakistan - just to keep yourself fresh.

Now, tell me about these ``restricted`` dance clubs - restricted to whom?

Please do write about changes in values you percieve. If you get a chance to travel to smaller towns, please do relate the kinds of changes you percieve.

Remember, Liberty is integral to Islam - freedom of conscience is a prerequiste for the experience of being of a Muslim - and that this mean Liberty as a value in society.

Please do write to me on my email address and let me know if I can be of any assistance.

brgds

Refugees of A Refugee Camp

Zeemax

Not Politically correct! However; who can doubt that Israel (the resettlement of jews from their homes, primarily from Europe, is an expression of hate - much like Pakistan)

``Get out!`` of a Europe that has been your home for more than 2000 years - still not European, enough.

But the truth is that Israelis cannot be resettled in Canada - recall there was a ``homeland`` setup and reserved for Jews in the USSR and of course South Africa was rejected as well. If the conflict was set up by Zionists, it is also true that it was aided and abetted by the US, the USSR and the Europeans - but MUSLIMS, whether Turks or Arabs must not be allowed to evade their responsibility in setting up this conflict. Again, much like Pakistan, they presented to a determined adversary, a divided, weak, morally and intellectually, hollow shell.

It would help us all undertand if you had included the play of ideas such as socialism, historicism, and the decay/ossification of both Muslim political and intellectual/moral power.

Who set this up? Men did. How? Simple answer:the dynamics of power abhor and will not tolerate, vacuum nor stasis.

The Perfect Murder YLH

Absolutely delightful to hear from you. I hope you are well and will continue to stay in touch and as usual, you are spot on in your analysis.

The Last Crusade Fawad

Dear Fawad, please be patient and maintain control over your nerves. It is clear that resolution of the issue of Kashmir`s status is getting closer. Clearly neither India nor Israel are the only enemies Muslims face today. Yet, there is considerable hope that this will not persist. Recall in the case of Israel, it is a population that lives in fear - it is a fear that we as Muslims, should take offense exists.

As for the Indians, again, recall that what we are witnessing from them is nothing new for sociologists: All societies in which the middle class begins to exert itself, also experience a period of fatuation with, of glorification, of those elements of history and psychology that it feels reflect power. With Indians it`s a need to be feel as if they are respected and are powerful. We must be patient and exert an influence of restraint and restriction; in way, we have to define, to frame, limits for them, as we remain conscious of our own.

Of Violent Birth and Peaceful Death Alphanell

Alpha, I was very disappointed with your post - it seems, you have missed the forests for the trees. What is pertinent is that neither side will have what can be equated with a ``cake walk``.

What`s even more important is that a military conflagration involving regular forces is simply unthinkable - or at least I wish to assure you that I think it is unthinkable, a terrible, horrifing, eventuality - and it is my hope that thinking Indians will think along similar lines.

A line of thinking as gained credence among some in India, that Pakistan is a militarily inconsequential power - such persons have reveal an ignorance of the variables any war or conflict or battle, come built in with. It could be weather, a small or what is judged as inconsequenial on the battlefield or in the theatre, may have larger consequences - either way, the point is that this subject does not lend itself to determinate eventuality, other than a indeterminate eventuality, that is, regardless of winners and losers, terrible.

Any proposal to defuse this situation ought to contain the following provisions in my opinion: 1.Post small mobile teams to check infiltration on both sides of the lineof control.

2. Evacuation of Indian occupation forces from captive Kashmir.

3. Joint statement, as a prelude to offical process of negotiation between Pakistan, India and Hurriyet, calling for a cessation of all hostile activity against remaining Indian policemen.

4. A joint security commission to include Pakistan, India, Hurriyet and UNO to monitor events, pending the final status of modalities to arrive at a comprehensive, mutually agreed upon solution.

It is clear that as time goes on pressure will increase to bring a complete halt to rebellion in captive Kashmir, however; it is equally clear that Indians will be pressured to ensure that the cative Kashmiri are no longer under the yoke of indian occupation. Before international powers impose on either Pakistan, India or Hurriyet, conditions which may bring a temporary cessation of hostility, in my opinion, it`s important for a process of dialogue or a process of negotiation bewteenthe three parties be initiated.

Lighting The Nuclear Fire Urstruly

``Wait till another experiment of `Islamic Secularism` starts-I am not so sure that the country will survive this time. But thanks to Hindus who have their foot on Musharaf`s tail (and that of Americans), it isn`t going as well as was planned for us``

I think it would be a mistake to view current events in the framework you suggest. Better, in my opinion, to allow all sides to play their hands out. I agree with you that both israel and India have sought to hijack the war on terror and to blackmail the US - additionally, there are lobbies in US government who are quite comfortable with these turn of events as they are proponents of the new colonialism. Either way it is difficult to argue that Al-Qaieda/Taliban and those groups associated with the liberation struggle of kashmir in Pakistan have acted in a way to promote the interest of Pakistan.

Mr. Musharraf has indeed got himself in a pickle, and unless he can project his point of view effectively, we are in for a round of ``do more``. Sensing his position, BB and NS are blackmailing him to resurrect them, the so called ``Ulema`` are balckmailing him by raising the non-issue of Khatm e Nabuwat. There is a sure way out of this predicament: Mr. Musharraf should stick to his guns - live up to his pledge to curtail infiltration, but not without reciprocity from the Indian and assurances from the international community of a recognition of dissonance within captive kashmir. To BB, NS and the so called Ulema, his response should be that they can go back to hell. Any power these non-entities exert is the power Mr. Musharraf gives them. It`s time for Mr. Musharraf to show these do for nothings, some stick. If Mr. Musharraf`s ship will sink, let it not sink without him and his team standing his ground - ``this far and no further`` that ought to be his considered message to those who seek to blackmail him and simultaneously he must be proactive. He has thus far been overly cautious, enemies of pakistan are not only to be found in India.

As for ``secular Islam`` - Allow me to suggest an alternate view: What some are calling secular Islam, in my opinion, can be better understood as the scientification of the understanding of Islam. After all, today, in everything we do, in what and how we write (organize data), how we present data, consequently how we think, is a consequence of the ascendancy, of the legitimacy of science as method. Can our understanding of Islam escape the lens of science we adopt as a matter of method?

Do you think Islam can be the civic religion of Pakistan? Are notions of Liberty, Pluralism, Tolerance, rights instead of duties, gaining ground in Pakistan, should they? Should we seek to diminish the force of alienation? Are these ideas deposited with in Islamic framework? Should they not be? Can we continue to heap upon ours understanding of religiosity, ever greater volumes of ignorance of emulation? Will we be able to save ourselves as Muslims if we do not see the ignorance of the religosity of emulation? No, certainly not; I am tremendously hopefully that Pakistanis are ready for this message, and I am convinced the obscuritanist know their days in the drivers seat are numbered, Is this not a mercy on us?

Of Violent Birth and Peaceful Death Rsaxsena

Nuance is lost on you - reread the first part of the post. This period if not handled with a care and with the consciousness of the implications of American presence - is, in my opinion, going to be a rerun of the British and the Moghuls. Several days ago, i had posted an article by Indian foreign service officer, who quoted an English Diplomatic paper on post modern states. The English identified China, India and Pakistan as Modern states. Post Modern States, the English diplomatic paper, argue must (for the good of both the populations of the post moden states and the modern, ensure that the paradigm in modern ststes, will be one of restriction of action. Richard Haas and Dr. Kennedy have argued for a new colonialism: to keep a lid on the ambitions of modern states. If after reading this you should like to continue to take a immature attitude, certainly that will be regretable.

Lighting The Nuclear Fire Ras Siddiqui

Socialism in Sweden a Success?

Mr. Siddiqui, if you shall look closer, you will note that in Sweden and in Europe, socialism is in retreat, primarily because of the high taxes and the social, economic stasis that has ensued. France is also worthy of study in this regard. In those countries in which it can be argued it has delivered, socialism is confined to services -and the price has been excessive taxes - of course the ability to pay the high taxes is a benefit of capitalism and a consensus on what kinds of services government ought to provide - again a connection with values. For instance in Finland, the State provides the opportunity to pursue education, more or less free of charge. This is an expression of a consensus of values about what the role of government ought to be? what community means? what sacrifices(taxes) are to be made to uphold the values of the community.

India a success of socialism? facts suggests a rather different conclusion.- The contrary is true, India threw off the yoke of the ``Hindu growth rate`` associated with Nehruvian socialism, and unleashed the entrepreneurial talent and the government adopted polices more in keeping with market realities. Some Indians are invited to comment and allow us a better understandingof this issue.

Trickle down? To describe the the function of markets as ``trickle down`` is hardly objective.

The point being made in my earlier post that the respect of private property, the formalization and sanctity of property rights appears to have a direct relationship with the value of Liberty in society, indeed with law abiding consciousness.

One can certainly argue that the socialism of Stalin produced great industrial gains for soviet society, a better life of soviet citizens - but let us be conscious of the costs - let us also be conscious of the tax policies of Stalin: where by the earning, the productivity of the citizens is taxed at a rate close 100 percent of the required or state set productivity level. Levaing the citizen with the necessity of working longer hours and doing a second job. Let us also be conscious that the standard of living of the soviet citizens under Stalin was not one we ought to seek.

``Awam`` - We will agree that a great number of sins and crimes have been commited in the name of the ``Awam`` - would you also agree that the best any one can hope to do by the ``Awam`` is to ensure they are educated, enabled, empowered to take responsibility for their lives in their own hands? Would you not agree that creating a transparent and open economy that functions more than less, along principles of a market economy is the need of the day for Pakistan. It seems to me that we have a choice to distribute opportunity or distribute poverty. It is a truism that there is no free lunch - at what cost, to the Awam - ought Pakistani policy makers seek to do good by the Awam?

Military government - whats so good about it? In general, nothing I can think of. However; while I cannot recall anybody arguing that miliatry governments are desirable, an argument can be made that takes in to account the context of instability - then military government, with a goal to bring order and restore the balance between competing institutions and create a measure of predictability, can be beneficial. The Ayub period saw considerable industrialization in Pakistan - the argument that the ``Awam`` suffered and the 22 families prospered is flawed - clearly the ``Awam``, any majority benefits less than a particular majority is explained by the division of any good by the numbers of the majority. for example, 1000 divided by 25 yields a larger benefit to the 25 - whereas if one were to divide 1000 by 5 million - clearly a small percent of of the good represented by the figure 1000 would accrue to the 5 million. (``The Logic of Collective Action`` - Dr. Mancur Olson)

I urge you to review ``Power and Prosperity`` by Dr. Mancur Olson - it is a delightful read and explains much of the misery we have visited upon ourselves.

I am not clear whether in desire to effect the good on behalf of the ``Awam`` (A position of conscience, I do not dispute - it is the ideology and methodology to be used to achieve his noble goal that is in question) - whether you are conscious that we risk distributing poverty in society?

Of Violent Birth and Peaceful Death If Chowk is representative of sentiment among Indians, then it seems a majority are frothing at the mouth at the idea of going to war with Pakistan - in the meantime, they have missed some unpleasant implications of American presence in the area - implications for Indian ambitions.

From Washington Times - May 30, 2002

``Nuclear high-wire act

Jed Babbin

Some wars are avoidable. It appears that the coming war between India and Pakistan over the disputed Kashmir region is not. We may not be able to act soon enough to stop war from breaking out, but we must take action to prevent the conflict from escalating to a nuclear exchange. An opportunity to take bold action arises from the war in Afghanistan and from an examination of the belligerents` order of battle.

India claims Kashmir as a result of a disputed ``accession`` signed at the time of Indian independence. Pakistan disputes that because the accession was to depend on a plebiscite in predominantly Muslim Kashmir that India has never allowed. An uneasy truce — memorialized in the ``Line of Control`` cease-fire boundary — resulted from the last major conflict that ended in 1972.

An attack on the Indian parliament last December heightened tensions between the two nations. A May 14 attack on an Indian base that left 34 dead — mostly women and children — was the last straw. Indian demands that Pakistan end the terror were addressed directly to Pakistan`s President Pervez Musharraf, whose January speech set him apart from other leaders of Muslim nations by denouncing the terror culture and the religious schools that teach it. But Mr. Musharraf now sounds like every other abettor of terrorism.

India`s incendiary rhetoric makes clear that war is imminent. It has proclaimed Pakistan the ``epicenter`` of international terrorism and warned its soldiers to prepare for a ``decisive battle.`` In response, Mr. Musharraf is making some very Arafat-like statements. In English, he said Pakistan would not start a war, and wants only peace. A moment later, in Urdu, he said, ``Pakistan will always support the Kashmiris` struggle for liberation.`` Having been a strong ally in our war against the Taliban, Mr. Musharraf now is backing away. He insists cross-border terrorism is ended but describes ``freedom fighters`` in the words that any terrorist leader would use. India apparently plans to attack soon, across the Line of Control, and possibly into Pakistan. The two nations` order of battle will probably produce a stalemate. In desperation or in error, that could lead to a nuclear exchange.

A nation`s ``order of battle`` — its weapons, people, doctrine and intelligence capabilities — tells a lot about how a war can be fought. India`s army outnumbers Pakistan`s by two-to-one, and India`s air force has four-to-one numerical superiority. India has a much larger navy, including an aircraft carrier. But a general war between them could also be fought in the skies over both countries, and at sea.

Some of India`s forces, such as its aircraft carrier, don`t even enter into the equation. The carrier can`t get close enough to strike Pakistan, because if it did it would be sunk by Pakistani land-based aircraft. India`s army — 1.3 million troops strong — has about 2500 tanks, including many old Russian T-55s. Its main strength is in size, not mobility. India`s army lacks the logistics ``tail`` that could enable it to mount the massive and sustained ground movements necessary to take and hold all of Kashmir. India`s best option to avoid a wider war is limited strikes against terrorists in Kashmir. But it lacks the special forces and intelligence integration that would give it this option. Its only alternative is a massive ground campaign.

The nations share about 1,800 miles of border. The military buildup has been in the Kashmiri lowlands northwest of Jammu. ``Lowlands`` is a deceiving term, because the ground there is as almost as high and rugged as Afghanistan. An Indian attack would likely begin north of Jammu, and move northwest toward Islamabad, Pakistan`s capital. In any Indian attack, the ability to move ground forces quickly in the first week of the war will be crucial. If the weather is bad enough to ground the Pakistani air force but still good enough to move on the ground, India could be within a few miles of Islamabad in seven to ten days. If the weather is good, and the Pakistanis use their air forces to best advantage, India will be stopped in its tracks.

India`s air force is no match for Pakistan`s. About one-third of India`s combat aircraft are barely flyable. Maintenance is poor. Pilots are in short supply. India`s air force is simply not combat-ready or sustainable. Pakistan`s air force is better trained and equipped. It flies American F-16 and French Mirage multi-role fighter-bombers that can penetrate Indian air defenses and deliver weapons up to 800 miles into Indian territory within 25 minutes of the beginning of the war. They could be carrying nuclear weapons.

Both nations have nuclear arsenals, but Pakistan has a greater ability to deliver them. This was demonstrated last weekend when the Pakistanis conducted three days of successful tests of long and short-range missiles. Pakistan claims to be able to hit 11 of India`s 12 largest cities — and 65 million people — with nuclear weapons. We cannot count on common sense preventing the use of nuclear weapons.

While diplomatic pressure must continue, it is very unlikely to succeed, and war may commence at any time. If it does, we must act to defuse the conflict before it escalates to nuclear war. Our opportunity to do so arises from reports that one of the terrorist groups in Kashmir, Lashkar-e-Omar, is headed by former Taliban chief Mullah Omar. There also are reports of Taliban and al Qaeda operating there. If their presence can be confirmed, we and our allies should ask Mr. Musharraf`s permission to attack, and make clear that we will not take ``no`` for an answer. At the same time, we have to make India understand that it will not be allowed to take advantage of our intervention to conquer all of Kashmir. American troops should never be used as a buffer for both sides to shoot at. But if we`re doing the shooting, India and Pakistan may stop long enough for real peace talks to begin.

Jed Babbin was a deputy undersecretary of defense in the first Bush administration.``