Another One Bites The Dust Hamidm

There more interesting stuff in that post, such as ``some confuse this with relativism or postivism``. Discerning the Eternal from the temporal, has been a challenege, not just for Ulema, but all of us.

In the material I had offered, in particular the work of Dr. Karl Popper and the understanding of ``method`` and the criteria of discern science from non-science - is ``one`` key to allow Muslims to negotiate the interpretation of Quran.

I very much agree, that there is to my reading, no explicit injuction - there is a warning about the evil and danger of not being ``present``, of escape - again some have confused this to mean to understand that those who drink are alcoholics and drunks.

Another One Bites The Dust

Hello Samina

``Would you care to develop and further expand these thoughts?``

I ran across some information, I can`t remember where I had read it - but I thought it was insightful. Women factory workers, usually urban who must travel to a semi rural location for work - the work place and the work itself offers relatively significant opportunity of interaction with men, outside the family melieu - Immediately a level of skills, other than house work, that are marketable, that enable the conception of a measure of economic power and social ``independence`` - also accompanied with greater numbers of ``illegitimate`` births.

Also the emergence of house to house sales persons, usually women. If there is a great depth to the labor market, that is there is demand, there exist a greater recognition of the economic/financial contribution of working women - a recognition of power, a recognition of a certain circumspection it affords - not just outside the family, but most directly in the family. My wife`s mother raised 7 children as a widow and all have a college education and interestingly of the three daughters who were not married, one an architect, the next, my beautiful bride, a conductive education specialist for children with cerebral palsy and the youngest, a fashion designer and entrpreneur - if you think about it, all three Urdu Muslim types, froma very traditional Urdu Muslim type family, all significant contributors to the economic/financial well being of their family, in a depressed labor market like Pakistan -

The expanded or deep labor market lowers the cost of women`s emancipation - because it creates an awareness of the necessity of their labor and a consciousness of the value of their labor - So, to my way of thinking, women`s emancipation in societies such as Pakistan is directly related to how enabled women are to exploit opportunities in a deep labor market.

``I wouldn`t be as quick to stereotype women in what you term the ``elite`` classes.``

Granted, my comment is a generalization, and as such cannot but be a sterotype - but I think, over all it`s valid - it`s more true than less true.

``I also stand by my contention; that it is of great importance that women dialogue among themselves about political platforms before men get into the picture, esp. in Pakistan where, as Hamid pointed out seem use gender inequities as a mechanism of patriarchal control. This basic reality cannot be denied, even with a million cut and pastes of religious prevarication.``

No doubt that it is of great importance for women to dialogue among themselves - but reality is that there are men in most women`s lives - reality is that economic, social, sexual, political power rests primarily in the hands of men, in a society such as Pakistan. Denying this reality cannot help - acknowledging and using this reality will.

Reality of relations between peoples, between sexes, is primarily a negotiation of power or it`s perception AND it`s basis is how persons make a living (their relationship to work) - don`t you think? (see above paragraph)

If we are hard nosed, we can say that ethics is a lesser player - we are left with power - if we shall not include men in our power base, will we not be denying reality? There are men in the society, one can`t just ignore their existence nor the power they can exercise and negotiate.

The Last Crusade It is indeed incredible that Pakistani ``Islamic terrorists`` on a suicide mission in Captive Kashmir, carry identification with them - indeed they carry reciepts of movie tickets from movie theatre in Sialkot in their Indian army issue uniforms - apparently they were in these uniforms when they decided to catch a flick in Sialkot - silly terrorists!

So much talk of war, of options, of do this and do that, but just hurt Pakistan - listen up Indians, please don`t talk of war with Pakistan instead concentrate on a decision to negotiate Captive Kashmir`s freedom. You must know Pakistanis want no part of war with India - and I`m pretty sure no rational Indian wants to impose nuclear war, or any other kind of war on Pakistan. I urge Indians on Chowk to consider the merits of a negotiated settlement to Captive Kashmir - one which takes into account Indian security and economic interests.

I ran across a small article in which China had requested a land corridor in Northern Pakistan to ``facilitate`` trade with Afghanistan and points beyond. - this even as India is denied such an accomodation - certainly, more than ``trade`` can flow throw such a land corridor.

A negotiated settlement to Captive Kashmir, must begin with a public commitment by India to pursue peace with Pakistan - a commitment to a process of dialogue and a negotiated settlement to Captive Kashmir, followed immediately by the evacuation of occupation forces and non-Kashmiri Indian civil service personnell from Captive Kashmir. Indian forces on the borders of Pakistan below the boundaries of Captive Kashmir may stay as a measure of Indian seriousness.

After consultation between Pakistan and India, the evacuation of Indian armed forces and non-Kashmiri civil service begin, Hurriyet be invited to assume the reigns of interim government and prepare for the holding of an election, until which the Indian constitution shall function as the basic law. After the elections, which ever party or coalition is to emerge will negotiate with the Indian government to ensure a respect for Indian security and economic concerns and implement the interim agreement. The process of negotiations to last no more than 12 months, to prepare Azad and Captive Kashmiris and Pakistanis and Indians for the eventual peace to follow the final demarcation of the borders of Pakistan and India.

Such an agreement can change the course of our histories - it can change the paradigm in which we are mutually hostile to one another`s existence. Pakistan`s claim of injury and demand for redress will have been satisfied, the Kashmiri free assume their rightful role in shaping the destiny of Pakistan. Pakistan will have been freed of the burden of hostility, the enormous cost of securing it`s Eastern and maritime borders. Indians will put to rest a awakening that threatens the very idea of India, they will have secured their North Western Border and changed the paradigm of relations with Pakistan from one of hostility to one of economic, intellectual and social interaction of a scale which cannot be without political and security implications for the region and the world. This and not talk of war should be our emphasis.

Confessions of a BJP Supporter Sadna

You have not offered criticism but made a charge -OK with me - I am willing to discuss as it applies to me, I`m sure if Urstruly feels there is merit in your charge he will engage you - but, I will give the benefit of the doubt and make myself availble to discuss your contention. First can wee set up a basis, so at least we can say there is a measure of validity to the charges you have made against me and therfore we should discuss it?

What is basis of the charge you make against me?

Confessions of a BJP Supporter Zafar Al-Talib

``Why do all your posts end up at the same point?``

I may be mistaken but I have the impression that most Indians think the creation of Pakistan to be unjustified and an injustice - I also think that the position many Indians are taking on Kashmir is informed by this sentiment.

Most Indians on Chowk will say, that indians accept the creation of Pakistan but I want to include here a quote from an article in today`s Christian Science Monitor, http://csmonitor.com/2002/0517/p01s04-wosc.html :

``For 50 years, India has been nebulous about what to do about Pakistan. Do they dismember it, resuscitate it, or do business with it? And so, without this clear political course, there is no guidance for the military.``

And I wanted to point out that the kinds of ideology and events we are witnessing today in Gujjrat - as you are aware it is being called a laboratory of Hindutva, that is if it succeeds here, is the prescription for the rest of India -will have the effect of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Prem

Consider: Hinduism is already being taught in schools but in bits and pieces - and what is being taught is a miltant, muscular, xenophobic, Glorious past. We in Pakistan are familiar with this theme and it`s ramifications. My advocacy of teaching Hinduism with an emphasis on the ethics is an effort to recognize reality and to help shape it away from the kind of attitudes one witnesses today. If Hindu ethics are taught, so will Islamic, Christian and those of other religions and this can only help. Man does not live by bread alone - this realization, whenever it comes, must find the individual familiar with basics of ethics - we know that there will be many who will seek to use or misuse religious teachings, so better we provide an education that will arm the indivdual to discern the wheat from the chaff.

Another One Bites The Dust Progressive

What did including the life of Durer have to do with the post?

In What should be done, part of the post - it is suggested that Modern or present day Muslims do not understand Shariah - If you will consider an alternate view:

It is not so that modern or present day Muslims do not understand Shariah - Shariah has failed to remain relevent. This is tragic for Muslims. Shariah is man made as opposed to Quran - Shariah provides a structure or scaffolding or foundation, for society - yet, this structure is today rejected by Muslims by and large - Why?

If Shariah contains or imparts a morality, a sense of justice - why does not find acceptance among a majority of Muslims?

Consider, perhaps it is because the morality, the sense of justice Shariah imparts to modern or present day Muslims, represents a dysfunction or disharmony - our morality is is disharmony with our ethics. If you will consider the analogy of the wheat and the chaff - we must dispense with the chaff, the morality, the sense of justice that has become fossilized in Shariah -

Yesterday, perhaps it was acceptable and good to give a girl of 15 years of age in marriage - today, it would be entirely unacceptable -would it not? Is this not evidence of a change in our understanding of the ``good``? It is a great misunderstanding of Islam and of the dynamic nature of the society it proposes - Of course as you are aware, obscuritanists, in reality Utopians, influenced by Aflatoon and Marx as they are, seek to arrest society, they must by virtue of their ideology arrest change - change that is the heart of society as represented in Quran: Did not Musa worship the same God, did not the same God hod him as His beloved? Did not the same follow for Eissa and was this not also different from the understanding, the morality, the sense of justice, from that which prevailed in the time of Musa and is this sameness and difference reflected in His choice of experience for Mohammed (may Allah Bless him and shower him peace)? Shariah at a point ceased to become a evolving, changing, human endeavor and instead became a blue print that not only captures a morality and a sense of justice, but also culture specific to a particular geography, in time - perhaps this is the greatest misfortune to befall Muslims.

Yet the obscuritanist utopians claim Shariah itself is the equivalent of the Quran, that it is Divine, eternal, non-human - can anything be more vile than such a conception, what can be more arrogant, more objectionable?

Obscuritanist utopians argue that society is going from bad to worse, they argue that they have a blue print for the perfect society - is this not arrogance? is this not blasphemy of sorts? Because society is going from bad to worse - change must be arrested - because a perfect society is established, change must be arrested. In both cases, tyranny and a deep rooted anti-Islamic sentiment is at work.

These conceptions of ``closed`` society are in direct contradiction to the ``open`` society that is both the impulse of Islamic understanding and the study of social transformation. How? Islam offer the individual moral choices at any, every step, and as a requirement of conscience, these choices must be free - that is to say, the conception of society in Islam, is one that is INDETERMINATE - free will/free choice ensure it will remain indeterminate, that is subject to continuous change, in morality, in the sense of justice, depending on the conception of morality and justice, prevailing at any given time.

Many persons mistake this for relativism or positivism - yet they overlook the anchor of this continuous change is both religious faith and a rational conception of the ``good`` - at any given point in a circle, the distance to the center is the same, yet one point different from the other point. The religious faith, the center of the circle, the rational conception of the ``good``, the understanding enabling, negotiating, the transition from one point on the circumfrence to the next.

So what does this have to do with the understanding of feminism? The first point is that feminism by itself does not represent a movement that Muslims can regard with suspicion. Feminism is merely a change in the understanding of how women see themselves, their relationship to men and to work. Are there other ideas that travel in disguise, incognito, in this movement? without a doubt. Do these ideas challenge the traditional conception of family? without a doubt - these ideas seek to redefine the notion of family.

How should Muslims respond to the feminist movement? In my opinion, examine, accept and incorporate those understandings that do not conflict with the understanding of Islam and reflect the changes in how women view themselves, their relatioship to men and work - and dessiminate arguments to counter abominations such as homosexuality as rational,legitimate and acceptable choice in society.

Confessions of a BJP Supporter Zafar Al-Talib

``Indeed. But you seem to present it (Islamization of Hindutva) as a bad thing. Sahih?``

Hindu are Hindu, not Muslims and if it is their will to be Hindus, why should they not remain Hindus?

``The irony is the intolerant bigot accusing others of intolerant bigotry.``

As the rest if us are angels, it makes the criticism invalid? Is criticism now to be acceptable, only if offered by acceptable persons?

Is the criticism valid or not? Basically everyone on all sides of the divide agree with the criticism Urstruly has offered. Why focus on the person and not what they have offered? Do you wish to personalize this in the hope of not discussing the merits of the criticism?

``Mian, reflexive defensiveness may well be an unfortunate characteristic, magar iss mein irony kahan hai?``

Janab, ``Irony`` - While you describe Urstruly as a ``bigot`` for valid criticism - you have not a word for the ideology and the actions that created Gujjrat. The Gujjratis being burnt alive are Muslims - but they are also ``Indians`` are they not? and yet Urstruly is the hateful ``bigot`` for being criticial?

``First understand yourself. Then understanding of others will come. Inshallah.``

OK, fine. We have gone beyond scoring points - it does me absolutely no good to see you or others I disagree on issues with, to be defensive - I`m more interested in dialogue - and I suggest that we will be safe in labelling persons as hateful or criticism as hateful; we shall remain safe but will not learn anything from each other. Listen, between you and me and this wall and this door, we all know only too well our social ills - problem is, has been, that we are like ostrich, we think the other persons do not know and if they knew, we would be ruined -

1. We all know. We all know that each others stuff stinks. Compassion does not mean neglect. Does not God help those who help themselves?

2. We are all already ruined.

3. It is the NEED of the hour, the day, the times - that we look some demons in the eye. Criticism, if valid, can only help. How shall we know if it is valid if we shall refuse to examine it.

Will we still be hateful and bigotted - you bet, but we will also be open and have dealt with some problems we have long neglected to deal with.

Confessions of a BJP Supporter Prem

Please don`t be ridiculous - one does not ``believe`` in secularism - secularism is a utility! not a religion or set of religious beliefs - at least not me - and that is core of the difference in the understanding of secularism, in my opinion, between persons on CHOWK.

On one side are individuals who view secularism as if it is a religion, in reality, a justification of, an ideology of STATEISM. Persons on Chowk, who find this idea of secularism compelling, seem to regard any discussion in which religion or the ethics derived from religion to be a danger - this, even as the history of the peoples of the subcontinent is overwhelmingly a history of their affinity to religious teachings? This even as the society itself is a function of a understanding of religion? This version of ``secularism`` seeks to drown Liberty and difference, that is to say the individual, in a sea of Stateism and will only bring misery to the peoples - because it seeks to replace traditional religions with a new religion, a new homogeniety, the religion of Stateism.

On the opposite side, persons such as myself, who see little merit and great danger in terms like ``secularism.`` ``Secularization`` is a process, we can study, and I encourage you to consider if it is not more useful to think in terms of this process. Secularization is directly connected with a change in the serving values and in the understanding of guiding values. The guiding values are those which connect us to the understanding of, our definition of, the eternal -the serving values, those which enable us to negotiate the temporal. In my opinion, religion is not the business of the state, however; we cannot escape the fact that it has become the business of the state and the question therefore is it`s relationship to governance. No one who has read my posts can argue that they remain uninformed that my position is that the appropriate relationship between the religion and governance is the specialization, the differentiation, of the institutes of religion and governance. That religion must reestablish it`s position in culture and conscience - that Liberty is the primary value of conscience.

Now the heart of the difference, VALUES - that is, the core of thinking that allows us to effect change. Prem, social transformation cannot occur without a change in values - study any social change, in any society, you will come to the conclusion that for any change to be effective, to be long lasting, a change in values has to be effected. As India rises out of poverty, can it`s potential be realized without a change in the religious or spiritual ethics that have a strong influence on social interactions? - The higher number of interactions is supposed to lessen tensions - yet we find the well spring of the tension and violence to be urban? An anomaly? What explains it? Shall we allow this observation to encourage us to reevaluate our theory of ``secularism``?

Is this argument significantly different from the one I offered when describing the problem as a religiosity of emulation? Is this argument significantly different when I suggested that a chnage in VALUES, IDEAS, is the requirement of negotiating the transition from a traditional to a post traditional society? Is this argument significantly different when I have suggested that traditional society is characterized by ``Duty`` whereas the post traditional by ``rights-carrying`` citizens? After the kinds of positions I have taken, to say that you do not know where I stand, is to say that we are not, ``like-minded`` - but certainly, saying my position is not clear is being less than truthful.

Consider: Can we effect change if we shall be closed to criticism? Can we know where it is we should be going? can we develop a consensus on our direction, if we shall be closed to criticism?

Is all criticism just hate? Are not the criticism on these boards, offered by me and by Urstruly - the same kinds of criticism that Hindu and Muslim Indians discuss privately? Is it untrue that Hindu India has become xenophopic? Is it untrue that anything ``not Indian`` and especially Islamic has become open to attack? Once India and Indians were proud of their connectedness to Islamia - is this the case today? Are you not reading daily, Muslim = Pakistani? Do you not find it incredible that persons such as myself, whom not just you but so many other Indians say, hates Hinduism and Hindus and India, is pointing out that this is a course leading to disintegration?

Another One Bites The Dust PM

Sorry for late response - Actaully it is about the freedom of speech - Do you not run the risk of saying any post is acceptable as long as I agree with the content? or form or language or some other criteria?

Last 40 or 50 post we have not heard from progressive - who is served by limiting the field?

Hamidm

Gusto, etc., - nothing is won without cost - nothing meaningful anyway. Upper and middle class Pakistani women are, in my ``experience`` not ready to accept responsibility for their emancipation; the cost of their emancipation, the loss of a kind of life style, in a cruel and shallow society, such as Pakistan, is a tremendous price -but there you have it, that is the price. There can be no freedon purchased on the cheap.

If men are not involved in this effort to emancipate - the effort will be a failure. The values that inform the relationship between the men and women, cannot be changed, without the consent and the participation of men, without men recognizing the the necessity of such a change.

It seems the rules one observes elsewhere do not apply in Pakistan, in particular, I have in mind the role of women of elite class - elsewhere, women from such class have been instrumental in creating public awareness - in Pakistan, it is the economic benefit and social interaction of women factory workers and women from less privelaged backgrounds that are effecting a change in values. It is in the process of industrialization and labor creation that those interested in effecting the emancipation of women ought to invest in. The deeper the labor market, the greater the opportunity and the lower the cost of the emancipation of Pakistani women.

YLH, Urstruly

A few months is very optimistic - perhaps more than a year is required to do away with blasphemy laws - and it certainly dobtful that it will happen in melieu of fighting terror (ineffectively)

Ijma can be created in public debates in media -yet, again, if done while a war on sectarian terror is on going, will impart the impression that this debate is biased - the debate must be free and long term, obscuritanist defeated throughly, completely, using not only Islamic references but a variety of religious and x-tra religious references.

A public debate in general on the understanding of Huddood is required, in my opinion. This will reduce to rubble the entire structure of obscuritanist ideology.

Confessions of a BJP Supporter CASTE

Back with a Bang - Hindus Indians on Chowk and Zafar, please note Cut n Paste`s Post #56 - CASTE is an engine of distributing social inequality, injustice and BRUTALITY in Indian society. CASTE is fundamentally a problem of ETHICS, of a religiosity of emulation - as a matter of fact, it is the anti-religion - it is anti-Hinduism - It is a distortion of meanings deposited in ``Hinduism`` - is it not? WHAT THEN MUST BE DONE?

Hindu Indians on CHOWK and Zafar argue that CASTE is immaterial to the discourse - Yet CASTE keeps cropping in the discourse among thinking Indians, but not on Chowk, an anomaly?

The greater the refusal to discuss how CASTE operates to distribute inequality and BRUTALITY in Indian society - the greater the assistance given to the forces of Hindutva - Yes, condemning CASTE is fine, but it is not enough to condemn - it must be examined. And IF the goal is to isolate CASTE as an ethical evil - in my opinion, the ethics in Hinduism must be rediscovered and taught all over again and to as wide an audience as possible - Does that mean Hinduism will have to taught all over again? Perhaps, why not? What about secularism? won`t this conflict? - Certainly not, are not school children learning a most distorted Hinduism in school? In their history classes? Is Hinduism not about an ethical and moral person individual? Is Hinduism not about values? And how is the teaching of the ethics of religions not a part of the mission of public schools? or should only non-religious or ``irreligious ethics`` be taught to school children? Are not private individuals and institutions not available to further this teaching of ethics?

Harimanu

Islamization of Hindutva or Hinduism? more and more Islamic terminology and method employed by mainstream and radical Islamic movements is being used by Hindutva forces - as a general rule, we should be aware of the law of unintended consequences.

The anger and self loathing among some Hindu Indians is distorting the consensus and the cohesion that has existed in the unexamined past - but with greater examination, the forces of cohesion are coming unglued - this is a global phenomenon (ebb and flow) - as such institutions will find cohesion more difficult to develop, a period of redefinition will follow, to rebuild consensus and cohesion - today, the forces of Hindutva disguised in the mask of secularism, have taken the initiative and they have chosen their enemy poorly.

Islam as the enemy for the India and Hinduism is a very different proposition than Islam as an enemy for the West. Islam in India is organic, deeply, stubbornly, rooted, to make it an enemy in India is to redefine Hinduism and India - and such an enterprise, under such terms, is music to the ears of the enemies of India - how? Because this exercise does not end up increasing the scope of the ``idea`` of India - rather it decreases the scope of the ``idea`` of India - which must, by definition means it will decrease, or it will create ``reservations`` for competing ideas of India, it`s not as if there are a few million Muslim in India, by differentiating as a condition of citizenship or belonging, as Hindutva must do, it creates an awakening in all segments of society - this imposed awakening is not with consequences for the idea of the territorial integrity of India.

Another One Bites The Dust YLH, Sarwari

Post #497 not mine - but ``Imposter``

Re your post to Fawad about ``ideological frontiers`` - actually ``ideological frontiers`` do exist in Pakistan and in many respects these frontiers need to be pushed forward and broadened. The very idea of Pakistan is a non-ethnic polity - it is a polity of ideas - thus far the ideas that have dominated, have been petty and miserly in scope - A homeland for Muslims of India? Perhaps it once was, and perhaps it once again be - but better we earn the admiration of ourselves and others by the ideas we formulate and promote. Chief among these ideas must be Liberty and the freedom of conscience. These two ideas are the well spring of freedom both of the indivdual and the society we must promote discussion and debate of these ideas within Pakistani society.

South Asian, Central Asian or Martian, Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Buddhist - we shall be slaves unless as a condition of our existence, Liberty and the freedom of conscience is not our birth right. All else flows from these two ideas; governance, economics and social interaction.

Confessions of a BJP Supporter Urstruly

Yet again you have the gall to be critical of Hindus and the understanding of Hinduism that has gained credence in politics in India (what about the whine, he hates Hindus, he hates hinduism, he hates India, do you find interesting?) - What`s the matter with you? - Don`t you know, being critical of Hindus or India is the equivalent of being anti-semetic when being critical of Israel, or Jews or the understanding of Judaism some find compelling? Here you will see how psychology is what this conversation is about - the so called ``secularist`` Indians on these boards harbour unending emnity whereas the so called extremist - acted on his conviction - found some of his assumptions did not hold water and is reevaluating his positions and world view - compare this with the in the views of the so called ``secularists`` - They see ``irony`` in criticism - not irony in a ``secular`` polity in which persons are burned alive because they are not the right religion - or in Hindus dictating to Muslims the terms that may allow Muslims to return to their homes in Gujjrat (change your religion is the demand the Hindu makes - how secular)

Here`s Stuka opening his heart and you are paint with a broad brush - Psychology amigo, gently, don`t you know the Indian can not be told that he has eyebrows over his eyes - they are very sensitive and one should be circumspect with critical opinions, when dealing with them - psychology.

Zafar - show Urstruly the irony in his criticism -and while you are at it, you may examine the irony of your reflexive defensiveness. What am I saying, you are more ``comfortable`` shifting attention to comparisons - no irony here. Those without sin cast the first stone? Never did this mean suspend judgment - Never did this mean one should not attempt to be clear about right and wrong - Never did it mean ``relative`` to others understanding of right and wrong. But I have not been ``understanding`` - too bad.

Another One Bites The Dust YLH,

Please restrain yourself and your sidekick Sarwari.

Dont be angered by the tone of my post.I have suffered your drivel for long.

If one disagrees with the post, engage the poster - presumably whoever is posting desires discussion of the content of the post - or, if one does not wish to discuss, simply ignore it -

It`s not fair on us.

Another One Bites The Dust

PM

``Hobbyty, if you seriously believe that ``whoever is posting desires discussion of the content``, well, I suppose you`ve got a point (and I`ve got a bridge in Tokyo to sell you).``

Which bridge in Tokyo? - consider, exactly what reason do you have to not operate as if ``give the other the benefit of the doubt`` - My naievte or innocence, or ignorance? OK, show me a picture of the bridge, I never buy something without at least having seen a picture of what it is I`m buying.

``And here`s why your analogy to TV channels is wrong: chowk is a much more `personal` space.``

More personal than the choices one makes with regard to which TV programs one will view in one`s own living room? Perhaps ``personal`` has other definitions I may not be familiar with.

In my opinion, copious amounts of anti-Islam posts appear on Chowk - some consider my post on Islam as anti-Islamic - though I agree, that there is no absolute right to anything and all ``rights`` or ``freedoms`` must have ``limits`` to be meaningful. I was posting some material and it was too long, Temporal and Hamidm, DRUMZ pointed out that the posts were so long that persons were not reading it and therefore the information I wanted people to discuss was simply being overlooked - that it was counter productive.

Honestly - I don`t have a reason to think that Progressive has any reason other than to bring into discussion a point of view he or she thinks ought to be discussed by us. Could he do better? Could the same apply to all of us?

Confessions of a BJP Supporter

This has been coming for a long time - Whatever psychology it is in the mdddle Class Hindu Indian that finds relief in seeing Hindus as the victims of a historic injustice at the hands of the Muslim, the Muslim as an Invader with alien religions and ways (The irony that all this is articulated and discussed in english, escapes them - amuses some and saddens others). The Muslims that has too many previlages and rights, Hindus were cowards and now only organized as fascists could they deliver a historic defeat to the Muslim and thereby absolve themselves as a culture and civilization - These ideas have credibility in India and Pakistanis should fear these ideas - without a doubt, Hindu nationalists will even risk war, nuclear war (a Pakistani bluff, they call it) in order to divert attention from it`s failures.

For observers - an old saying: choose your enemy with care, you will become most like him. In choosing Islam as enemy, Hindutva, or Hindu-ness, may well be on the it`s way to the Islamization of Hindu-ness and the so called secular Indians will help in this endeavor - why? because they do not want to confront Hindutva.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/13/international/asia/13HIND.html?pagewanted=all&position=topy

Another One Bites The Dust PM, Samina

Long time - My point was it is both Illiberal and closed minded to ask Chowk to censor the post of a select few - It`s too long, it`s too short, this best is too hard, this bed too soft..

If one disagrees with the post, engage the poster - presumably whoever is posting desires discussion of the content of the post - or, if one does not wish to discuss, simply ignore it - It`s the equivalent of persons complaining that some TV programs are objectionable - therefore everybody else must be subjected to their taste in TV programs - it`s unfair.