Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
``Beneath Afghanistan
To the casual observer, Afghanistan has little more than rugged mountains and arid plains, dissipating into a dust-filled horizon. But geologists see a wealth of resources that years of war haven`t ravaged because they are underground.
Afghanistan has the largest copper deposits in the world, the third-largest iron deposits, oil and gas in the north and probably in the south — and a richness of minerals, said geologist and geographer Jack Shroder, who headed a team that created an atlas of Afghanistan in cooperation with the U.S. government, following the 1978 Soviet coup. ``Afghanistan is sitting on resources that could be used to bootstrap the economy,`` said Mr. Schroder.
Some far-sighted U.S. officials would like to help Afghanistan do just that, and have floated a proposal, yet to be approved or made public, to develop a digital and analog interactive map that delineates Afghanistan`s sub-terrain, surface and topography. This map would identify the location, distribution, quantity and quality of the country`s natural resources, including water, and also indicate the zones of earthquake hazard. The creation of this map, and some training expenses, would probably cost about $65 million, the U.S. officials said. ``Our goal is to get the data to the point where it`s useful and can be handled by the [Afghans] on their own,`` said one government official. Once the map is completed, the private sector could come in and develop the resources, he added.
Surely, the creation of this map, not to mention the private sector`s ability to use it for development, will be tricky. Geologists will have to conduct field work and observe Afghanistan from the air, which will be risky. But geologists could also draw on data compiled over the years by the Soviet regime, Afghan government, local agencies (such as the Red Crescent) and the U.S. government. Also, the proposal dovetails with America`s shifting strategy for Afghanistan, which entails reconstruction and plans to make a concerted push to train its military and police corps. These Afghan forces could play a crucial role in providing cover to geologists and private-sector workers.
America has a clear stake in fostering stability and prosperity in Afghanistan. So, serious U.S. deliberations on Afghanistan`s hidden treasures certainly are in order.``
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 21, 2002 05:53 pm
Chowkies - This is a follow up to my post 125? about the TAP. Below from ``Washington Times`` of today``Beneath Afghanistan
To the casual observer, Afghanistan has little more than rugged mountains and arid plains, dissipating into a dust-filled horizon. But geologists see a wealth of resources that years of war haven`t ravaged because they are underground.
Afghanistan has the largest copper deposits in the world, the third-largest iron deposits, oil and gas in the north and probably in the south — and a richness of minerals, said geologist and geographer Jack Shroder, who headed a team that created an atlas of Afghanistan in cooperation with the U.S. government, following the 1978 Soviet coup. ``Afghanistan is sitting on resources that could be used to bootstrap the economy,`` said Mr. Schroder.
Some far-sighted U.S. officials would like to help Afghanistan do just that, and have floated a proposal, yet to be approved or made public, to develop a digital and analog interactive map that delineates Afghanistan`s sub-terrain, surface and topography. This map would identify the location, distribution, quantity and quality of the country`s natural resources, including water, and also indicate the zones of earthquake hazard. The creation of this map, and some training expenses, would probably cost about $65 million, the U.S. officials said. ``Our goal is to get the data to the point where it`s useful and can be handled by the [Afghans] on their own,`` said one government official. Once the map is completed, the private sector could come in and develop the resources, he added.
Surely, the creation of this map, not to mention the private sector`s ability to use it for development, will be tricky. Geologists will have to conduct field work and observe Afghanistan from the air, which will be risky. But geologists could also draw on data compiled over the years by the Soviet regime, Afghan government, local agencies (such as the Red Crescent) and the U.S. government. Also, the proposal dovetails with America`s shifting strategy for Afghanistan, which entails reconstruction and plans to make a concerted push to train its military and police corps. These Afghan forces could play a crucial role in providing cover to geologists and private-sector workers.
America has a clear stake in fostering stability and prosperity in Afghanistan. So, serious U.S. deliberations on Afghanistan`s hidden treasures certainly are in order.``
Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
``It is axiomatic that the army has no political role in any democratic country, whatever its form of government. But, for historical reasons, it has acquired this role in Pakistan which now appears to be irreversible.``
``But for Histiorical reasons``?? Indeed, it is not axiomatic but self serving and a denial of reality to suggest that the armed forces do not have a role in governance in Pakistan. Phrrrh - silly history. Yet does that mean we are but slaves of history? Indeed not; what it does mean however; is that those who would argue that they are free of history as much it`s slave as those who argue that we can never be free of history. Mr. Khan fails to realize that democracy in England or any where else, has it`s own unique history. That within that history is the interplay of men and women of ambition and ideas and the possible. For Democracy, not majoritarianism, not totalitarian democracy, not plebiscitary democracy. to continue to develop and sustain itself in Pakistan, that it too has had and has and will have, its own unique developement and history as the interplay of men and women of ambition, ideas and the possible.
``On the other hand, if the army`s role in politics is formalized, as is proposed, it will expose it to criticism both at home and abroad.
It will be accused of exercising power without responsibility and of usurpation of the functions of parliament and of Bonapartism``
Criticism is mothers milk to the process of accountability and social change in a free society. We need never fear criticism and indeed look upon it as a mechanism of refining, rationalizing our diliberations. Mere accusations need not be the end of the world; and indeed accusations while unconstructive, may appeal to the sense of just conduct, for a public hearing and consequences.
If, after critical evaluation, and with a view to accertain and act upon the public good, consensus is formed that a constitutional role in governance, of the armed forces is no longer justified, will the process of criticism and debate be over? Indeed not. The ideas and the realities, economic, social, intellectual and military will continue to fuel this debate until from within society arises the understanding that in order to avoid the excesses of power and to reduce the possibility and consequences of misrule, the question of sovereignty must continue to be guarded against with sobriety and dedication.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 21, 2002 05:53 pm
``TWO SUNS IN THE SKY`` - By Roedad khan``It is axiomatic that the army has no political role in any democratic country, whatever its form of government. But, for historical reasons, it has acquired this role in Pakistan which now appears to be irreversible.``
``But for Histiorical reasons``?? Indeed, it is not axiomatic but self serving and a denial of reality to suggest that the armed forces do not have a role in governance in Pakistan. Phrrrh - silly history. Yet does that mean we are but slaves of history? Indeed not; what it does mean however; is that those who would argue that they are free of history as much it`s slave as those who argue that we can never be free of history. Mr. Khan fails to realize that democracy in England or any where else, has it`s own unique history. That within that history is the interplay of men and women of ambition and ideas and the possible. For Democracy, not majoritarianism, not totalitarian democracy, not plebiscitary democracy. to continue to develop and sustain itself in Pakistan, that it too has had and has and will have, its own unique developement and history as the interplay of men and women of ambition, ideas and the possible.
``On the other hand, if the army`s role in politics is formalized, as is proposed, it will expose it to criticism both at home and abroad.
It will be accused of exercising power without responsibility and of usurpation of the functions of parliament and of Bonapartism``
Criticism is mothers milk to the process of accountability and social change in a free society. We need never fear criticism and indeed look upon it as a mechanism of refining, rationalizing our diliberations. Mere accusations need not be the end of the world; and indeed accusations while unconstructive, may appeal to the sense of just conduct, for a public hearing and consequences.
If, after critical evaluation, and with a view to accertain and act upon the public good, consensus is formed that a constitutional role in governance, of the armed forces is no longer justified, will the process of criticism and debate be over? Indeed not. The ideas and the realities, economic, social, intellectual and military will continue to fuel this debate until from within society arises the understanding that in order to avoid the excesses of power and to reduce the possibility and consequences of misrule, the question of sovereignty must continue to be guarded against with sobriety and dedication.
Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
Shammi
Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) Indian, or rather Hindu Indians seem unable to reconcile themselves - They are in the grip of an identity crisis - What does it mean to be a Hindu and an Indian or it there any difference between the two? Only Hindus and Indians will have to answer, whatever the answer, it will have consequences for those in India and those who must be vigilant to ensure hindu fascism is contained.
``Militants seek Muslim-free India
Burhan Wazir reports from Gujarat on an explosion of violence, nationalism and Nazi-style politics and its result: 2,000 killed and 100,000 homeless
Sunday July 21, 2002
The Observer
At the elegantly simple home of Mahatma Gandhi in Ahmedabad, the bustling capital of Gujarat state, a museum eulogises his contribution to the founding of India. Gandhi`s clothes, books, journals and photographs line the walls. Outside in the freshly watered gardens the mango trees are in full bloom. One journal contains Gandhi`s simple denunciation of violence: `The science of war leads one to dictatorship. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to a pure democracy.`
More than 50 years after his death at the hands of a nationalist militant, Gandhi would find India unrecognisable. In the past five months his home state has been stunned by religious violence that shows few signs of fading.
India`s worst religious violence since the 1947 partition was sparked at the end of February when 57 Hindu pilgrims were killed in the alleged torching of a train carriage by Muslim militants in Godhra. Hindu militants sought a swift revenge.
Since then, massacres by Hindu gangs have become commonplace. In five months, more than 2,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced, congregating in squalid camps around Gujarat.
The state is in turmoil. On Friday, only hours after the state`s top elected official, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, resigned and dissolved the legislative assembly to seek a fresh mandate, at least two people were killed and eight others injured when police opened fire to disperse rioting mobs. In recent months Mohdi had come under attack for his delayed response to the killings. His resignation was eclipsed, however, on Thursday when 70-year-old Muslim scientist Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, an unrepentant nationalist and the father of India`s nuclear missile programme, was elected to the largely ceremonial role of President.
The violence has been linked to the rise of extremist Hindu groups such as the Association of National Volunteers, or the RSS - a khaki-clad nationalist paramilitary sect formed in the Twenties - and its offspring, the World Hindu Council, or the VHP.
Gujarat is one of the few states in India controlled by the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. The state has been described as a `laboratory for Hindu fascism`. Since rising to power in the mid-Nineties, the BJP has aggressively pursued a pro-Hindu agenda.
It has also backed the construction of a temple in Ayodhya, where Hindu nationalists destroyed a mosque in 1992. Several members of the present Cabinet, including the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, were present at the demolition.
The RSS and the World Hindu Council, described locally as `Saffron Warriors`, have one clear aim: Hindu expansion by mass conversion. The militants believe that India was once an empire of 75 countries stretching from Cambodia to Iran.
They have introduced textbooks that convey former Hindu glories, and they propagate the myth of an India under siege from native Islamic militants. The RSS also lobbies to reintroduce the traditional names of cities like Mumbai, until recently Bombay.
`The situation is getting out of control,` says Arvind Sisodia, vice-president of the VHP in Gujarat. A passionate advocate of the Hindutva or `global Hindu conscious ness`, Sisodia is a middle-class worker at the Life Insurance Corporation of India.
`In Gujarat, the Muslims own all the shops; they are involved in illegal trade,` says Sisodia. `And Muslim boys steal our Hindu girls and marry them. So the situation is unbearable.`
In the days after the first killings in Gujarat, the VHP distributed leaflets asking Hindus to pledge a boycott of Muslims - including refusing to be taught by Muslim teachers and ensuring sisters and daughters did not fall into `the love-trap of Muslim boys`.
`It is up to all Hindus to make sure that we restore India to dominance,` says Sisodia. `Hinduism was once the dominant faith. Muslims have to learn to adapt. Otherwise, it will be dangerous for them. We don`t want them here.`
A few days after the deaths at Godhra, on a humid morning in an inner-city enclave of Ahmedabad, around 20 men marched up to the Indian flag and offered the Nazi salute. This was a training camp, or shakha, run by the RSS. There are about 40,000 camps scattered throughout India and informal ones abroad for expatriates.
The men, many of them in their thirties, are middle-class professionals - employees of Ahmedabad`s bustling industrial community. India`s middle classes are the keenest recruits to the RSS - drawn by fears of Islamic terrorism and of Westernisation amid a crumbling national economy.
In a fashionable Ahmedabad gated community lives Vijay Chauthaiwale, a microbiologist. Over lunch, with the World Cup playing on a satellite channel behind him, he explained his attraction to the RSS: `We are a very modern family,` he said, `but I feel that the more we move towards the West, the more likely we are to lose our Hindu values.
`Gandhi would not have understood,` he said. `He was an old-fashioned man with old-fashioned ideas. No one believes those things any more. The world has changed. And for Hindus to survive, we have to protect our culture and our way of life.`
For middle-class families such as Chauthaiwale`s, the Indian secular experiment has proved disastrous. The country`s Muslim population - now 11 per cent - is seen as a primary threat. `Where do the allegiances of the Muslims lie?` asked Kaushik Mehta, general secretary of the VHP in Gujarat.
He pointed to an enclave of Ahmedabad dubbed `mini-Pakistan` for its madrassahs, or Islamic schools. `We can`t allow such places to exist. They train terrorists. Muslims have to integrate. If they refuse to, we`ll be forced to make them. Or they can leave.`
For the 100,000 Muslims in squalid camps around Gujarat there is no such escape. In nearby Pakistan, India`s Muslims are viewed as traitors who betrayed Pakistan after partition. And now the Muslim camps are being shut down, casting their occupants into the streets and into the hands of Hindu extremists.
Most are fearful of returning to their villages. `They can`t go back because they face death threats,` said Father Cedric Prakash, director of Prashant, a human rights group in Ahmedabad. `The fanatics have all the power.`
More violence seems inevitable. At the end of February, Anjum Bana escaped her village in Panderwala with her six-week-old daughter. As Hindu militants torched the village, she hid in the forest. `There was nothing to eat or drink for three days,` she said. `I could hear people shouting RSS slogans all around me. And my child was dying. I know I can`t go back.`
The hawkish former Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narinder Mohdi, however, is unconvinced. In the early days of the rioting, as the body count escalated, Mohdi famously said Gujarat`s Hindus had shown `remarkable restraint`. Shortly before resigning on Friday, he said: `There is no problem with people returning back home. If they don`t want to go, they should be forced back. They have to go back.`
In a shabby camp in a graveyard in Ahmedabad, residents have taken to organising a night-time watch. `They know that once we are on the streets we are vulnerable. I can`t understand it. I have lived with Hindu neighbours for 40 years, and there have never been any problems. Now those same neighbours have turned on me. And no one will look after us.`
Burhan Wazir presents `Unreported World: Saffron Warriors` on Channel 4 on Saturday at 7.40 pm.``
Happy ``love trap``
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 21, 2002 05:53 pm
Shammi
Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) Indian, or rather Hindu Indians seem unable to reconcile themselves - They are in the grip of an identity crisis - What does it mean to be a Hindu and an Indian or it there any difference between the two? Only Hindus and Indians will have to answer, whatever the answer, it will have consequences for those in India and those who must be vigilant to ensure hindu fascism is contained.
``Militants seek Muslim-free India
Burhan Wazir reports from Gujarat on an explosion of violence, nationalism and Nazi-style politics and its result: 2,000 killed and 100,000 homeless
Sunday July 21, 2002
The Observer
At the elegantly simple home of Mahatma Gandhi in Ahmedabad, the bustling capital of Gujarat state, a museum eulogises his contribution to the founding of India. Gandhi`s clothes, books, journals and photographs line the walls. Outside in the freshly watered gardens the mango trees are in full bloom. One journal contains Gandhi`s simple denunciation of violence: `The science of war leads one to dictatorship. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to a pure democracy.`
More than 50 years after his death at the hands of a nationalist militant, Gandhi would find India unrecognisable. In the past five months his home state has been stunned by religious violence that shows few signs of fading.
India`s worst religious violence since the 1947 partition was sparked at the end of February when 57 Hindu pilgrims were killed in the alleged torching of a train carriage by Muslim militants in Godhra. Hindu militants sought a swift revenge.
Since then, massacres by Hindu gangs have become commonplace. In five months, more than 2,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced, congregating in squalid camps around Gujarat.
The state is in turmoil. On Friday, only hours after the state`s top elected official, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, resigned and dissolved the legislative assembly to seek a fresh mandate, at least two people were killed and eight others injured when police opened fire to disperse rioting mobs. In recent months Mohdi had come under attack for his delayed response to the killings. His resignation was eclipsed, however, on Thursday when 70-year-old Muslim scientist Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, an unrepentant nationalist and the father of India`s nuclear missile programme, was elected to the largely ceremonial role of President.
The violence has been linked to the rise of extremist Hindu groups such as the Association of National Volunteers, or the RSS - a khaki-clad nationalist paramilitary sect formed in the Twenties - and its offspring, the World Hindu Council, or the VHP.
Gujarat is one of the few states in India controlled by the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. The state has been described as a `laboratory for Hindu fascism`. Since rising to power in the mid-Nineties, the BJP has aggressively pursued a pro-Hindu agenda.
It has also backed the construction of a temple in Ayodhya, where Hindu nationalists destroyed a mosque in 1992. Several members of the present Cabinet, including the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, were present at the demolition.
The RSS and the World Hindu Council, described locally as `Saffron Warriors`, have one clear aim: Hindu expansion by mass conversion. The militants believe that India was once an empire of 75 countries stretching from Cambodia to Iran.
They have introduced textbooks that convey former Hindu glories, and they propagate the myth of an India under siege from native Islamic militants. The RSS also lobbies to reintroduce the traditional names of cities like Mumbai, until recently Bombay.
`The situation is getting out of control,` says Arvind Sisodia, vice-president of the VHP in Gujarat. A passionate advocate of the Hindutva or `global Hindu conscious ness`, Sisodia is a middle-class worker at the Life Insurance Corporation of India.
`In Gujarat, the Muslims own all the shops; they are involved in illegal trade,` says Sisodia. `And Muslim boys steal our Hindu girls and marry them. So the situation is unbearable.`
In the days after the first killings in Gujarat, the VHP distributed leaflets asking Hindus to pledge a boycott of Muslims - including refusing to be taught by Muslim teachers and ensuring sisters and daughters did not fall into `the love-trap of Muslim boys`.
`It is up to all Hindus to make sure that we restore India to dominance,` says Sisodia. `Hinduism was once the dominant faith. Muslims have to learn to adapt. Otherwise, it will be dangerous for them. We don`t want them here.`
A few days after the deaths at Godhra, on a humid morning in an inner-city enclave of Ahmedabad, around 20 men marched up to the Indian flag and offered the Nazi salute. This was a training camp, or shakha, run by the RSS. There are about 40,000 camps scattered throughout India and informal ones abroad for expatriates.
The men, many of them in their thirties, are middle-class professionals - employees of Ahmedabad`s bustling industrial community. India`s middle classes are the keenest recruits to the RSS - drawn by fears of Islamic terrorism and of Westernisation amid a crumbling national economy.
In a fashionable Ahmedabad gated community lives Vijay Chauthaiwale, a microbiologist. Over lunch, with the World Cup playing on a satellite channel behind him, he explained his attraction to the RSS: `We are a very modern family,` he said, `but I feel that the more we move towards the West, the more likely we are to lose our Hindu values.
`Gandhi would not have understood,` he said. `He was an old-fashioned man with old-fashioned ideas. No one believes those things any more. The world has changed. And for Hindus to survive, we have to protect our culture and our way of life.`
For middle-class families such as Chauthaiwale`s, the Indian secular experiment has proved disastrous. The country`s Muslim population - now 11 per cent - is seen as a primary threat. `Where do the allegiances of the Muslims lie?` asked Kaushik Mehta, general secretary of the VHP in Gujarat.
He pointed to an enclave of Ahmedabad dubbed `mini-Pakistan` for its madrassahs, or Islamic schools. `We can`t allow such places to exist. They train terrorists. Muslims have to integrate. If they refuse to, we`ll be forced to make them. Or they can leave.`
For the 100,000 Muslims in squalid camps around Gujarat there is no such escape. In nearby Pakistan, India`s Muslims are viewed as traitors who betrayed Pakistan after partition. And now the Muslim camps are being shut down, casting their occupants into the streets and into the hands of Hindu extremists.
Most are fearful of returning to their villages. `They can`t go back because they face death threats,` said Father Cedric Prakash, director of Prashant, a human rights group in Ahmedabad. `The fanatics have all the power.`
More violence seems inevitable. At the end of February, Anjum Bana escaped her village in Panderwala with her six-week-old daughter. As Hindu militants torched the village, she hid in the forest. `There was nothing to eat or drink for three days,` she said. `I could hear people shouting RSS slogans all around me. And my child was dying. I know I can`t go back.`
The hawkish former Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narinder Mohdi, however, is unconvinced. In the early days of the rioting, as the body count escalated, Mohdi famously said Gujarat`s Hindus had shown `remarkable restraint`. Shortly before resigning on Friday, he said: `There is no problem with people returning back home. If they don`t want to go, they should be forced back. They have to go back.`
In a shabby camp in a graveyard in Ahmedabad, residents have taken to organising a night-time watch. `They know that once we are on the streets we are vulnerable. I can`t understand it. I have lived with Hindu neighbours for 40 years, and there have never been any problems. Now those same neighbours have turned on me. And no one will look after us.`
Burhan Wazir presents `Unreported World: Saffron Warriors` on Channel 4 on Saturday at 7.40 pm.``
Happy ``love trap``
Coney Al Jazeera
It did not occur to me - what a anticlimax - and you guys were being so coy - I thought it`s got to be something juicy, naugty, fun - instead its ulla ka phath - still, its been a while since I`ive heard that My apologies to all of you and YOU guys owe me big - what kind of fun UKP? give me something fun
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 21, 2002 05:53 pm
ana, temporal, Scout, banjaraIt did not occur to me - what a anticlimax - and you guys were being so coy - I thought it`s got to be something juicy, naugty, fun - instead its ulla ka phath - still, its been a while since I`ive heard that My apologies to all of you and YOU guys owe me big - what kind of fun UKP? give me something fun
Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
A soverign parliament? Soverignty basically boils down to the question, WHO SHOULD RULE? Yet this question is a mistake to ponder in a Democracy. Why? Democracy is unique amongst forms and methods of governance, in its conception of the character of power. Democracy, amongst all forms of governance, and unlike most all, fundamentally mistrusts power and seeks to prevent its concentration. It is for this reason, this characteristic of power, that it lends itself to abuse, that the separation of powers is a fundamental principle of Democractic governance.
If pamphleteers and the like, want to make the issue one of ``who should rule``, we shall not be found lacking in our understanding of Democractic goverance and can most easily unmask this obfuscation for the farce that it is. In responding to the making soverignty the issue, true Democracy and Democracts can but respond with truth and appeal to reason and justice.
The separation of powers is an attempt to prevent the accumulation and diffuse the inherent propensity of power towards misuse. The question ``Who Should Rule`` or ``Where does soverignty lie`` is a misconcieved question, because it eliminates, before it is raised, the possibility of control over rulers, when this is precisely the imperative. The essential issue therefore is not ``Who should rule`` but ``How can we minimize misrule, both it`s possibility and when it does happen, its consequences``.
Mr. Khan points out that the English parliament is sovereign, he omits to inform that England does not have a written constitution. let us remind ourselves of Aristotle`s caveat: ``Where the laws are not sovereign...since the many are sovereign not as individuals but collectively...such a democracy is not constitutional at all``. It is law that is sovereign in democractic governance, not any individual or institution. For those who would obfuscate the issue futher and argue that laws and legislatures are in fact the same, we may clarify that in our own times, of the historian J. L. Talmon observation: ``today legislatures are no longer so called because they make the laws, but laws are so called because they emanate from the legislatures``; this I appeal, cannot be our reasoned, just choice.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 06:50 pm
TWO SUNS IN THE SKY? By Roedad KhanA soverign parliament? Soverignty basically boils down to the question, WHO SHOULD RULE? Yet this question is a mistake to ponder in a Democracy. Why? Democracy is unique amongst forms and methods of governance, in its conception of the character of power. Democracy, amongst all forms of governance, and unlike most all, fundamentally mistrusts power and seeks to prevent its concentration. It is for this reason, this characteristic of power, that it lends itself to abuse, that the separation of powers is a fundamental principle of Democractic governance.
If pamphleteers and the like, want to make the issue one of ``who should rule``, we shall not be found lacking in our understanding of Democractic goverance and can most easily unmask this obfuscation for the farce that it is. In responding to the making soverignty the issue, true Democracy and Democracts can but respond with truth and appeal to reason and justice.
The separation of powers is an attempt to prevent the accumulation and diffuse the inherent propensity of power towards misuse. The question ``Who Should Rule`` or ``Where does soverignty lie`` is a misconcieved question, because it eliminates, before it is raised, the possibility of control over rulers, when this is precisely the imperative. The essential issue therefore is not ``Who should rule`` but ``How can we minimize misrule, both it`s possibility and when it does happen, its consequences``.
Mr. Khan points out that the English parliament is sovereign, he omits to inform that England does not have a written constitution. let us remind ourselves of Aristotle`s caveat: ``Where the laws are not sovereign...since the many are sovereign not as individuals but collectively...such a democracy is not constitutional at all``. It is law that is sovereign in democractic governance, not any individual or institution. For those who would obfuscate the issue futher and argue that laws and legislatures are in fact the same, we may clarify that in our own times, of the historian J. L. Talmon observation: ``today legislatures are no longer so called because they make the laws, but laws are so called because they emanate from the legislatures``; this I appeal, cannot be our reasoned, just choice.
Coney Al Jazeera
OK - UKP , lets see - U=ullo, K=?, P=?
Now this is too much work for the likes of me - and entirely to slow, painfully and why so coy?
This had better be beyond good.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 06:50 pm
BanjaraOK - UKP , lets see - U=ullo, K=?, P=?
Now this is too much work for the likes of me - and entirely to slow, painfully and why so coy?
This had better be beyond good.
Does a Bachelor’s degree mean education in politics
If what you say is true - why is that in the article the writer constantly compares India with Pakistan? Perhaps the writer thinks India ought to judge itself in comparison to Pakistan? What might this suggest to you?
But I suppose among the blind, the one eyed man is king?
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 01:28 pm
BluemoonIf what you say is true - why is that in the article the writer constantly compares India with Pakistan? Perhaps the writer thinks India ought to judge itself in comparison to Pakistan? What might this suggest to you?
But I suppose among the blind, the one eyed man is king?
Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
Yet another example of cutting off one`s own nose to spite an enemy - unimaginable that the US could allow this to be done to it:
``ARABS IN U.S. COULD BE HELD, OFFICIAL WARNS
Rights unit member foresees detainment
BY NIRAJ WARIKOO, Detroit Free Press, 7/20/02
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/civil20_20020720.htm
A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in Detroit on Friday he could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps
for Arab-Americans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country.
If there`s a future terrorist attack in America ``and they come from the same ethnic group that attacked the World Trade Center, you can forget about civil rights,`` commission member Peter Kirsanow said.
The reason, he said, is that ``the public would be less concerned about any perceived erosion of civil liberties than they are about protecting their own lives.``
Kirsanow, who was appointed to the commission last year by President George W. Bush, said after the session that he personally doesn`t support such camps and the government would never envision them. He said he was merely saying public opinion would so strongly favor the idea that it would be difficult to prevent. There would be a ``groundswell of opinion`` for the
detainment, he said.
The remarks came during a raucous commission hearing in Detroit in which Kirsanow and another conservative member, Jennifer Braceras, defended U.S. antiterrorism efforts after Sept. 11.
A White House spokesman said Friday night that he could not respond specifically to Kirsanow`s comments without seeing a full transcript of
them, but said that the possibility of Arab internment camps has never been discussed at the White House…
The seven-member commission, based in Washington, D.C., was at the Omni Hotel in Detroit for its monthly meeting, and heard testimony from
Arab-American leaders who said the government abused civil rights following Sept. 11…
Kirsanow was unmoved, arguing that Arab and Muslim Americans should accept the country`s new antiterrorism laws and complain less about infringements to their civil rights.
If there`s another attack by Arabs on U.S. soil, ``not too many people will be crying in their beer if there are more detentions, more stops, more profiling,`` Kirsanow said.
``There will be a groundswell of public opinion to banish civil rights. So the best thing we can do to preserve them is by keeping the country safe…"
Braceras, another Bush appointee, said: ``There`s no constitutional right not to be inconvenienced or even embarrassed…"
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 01:28 pm
FawadYet another example of cutting off one`s own nose to spite an enemy - unimaginable that the US could allow this to be done to it:
``ARABS IN U.S. COULD BE HELD, OFFICIAL WARNS
Rights unit member foresees detainment
BY NIRAJ WARIKOO, Detroit Free Press, 7/20/02
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/civil20_20020720.htm
A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in Detroit on Friday he could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps
for Arab-Americans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country.
If there`s a future terrorist attack in America ``and they come from the same ethnic group that attacked the World Trade Center, you can forget about civil rights,`` commission member Peter Kirsanow said.
The reason, he said, is that ``the public would be less concerned about any perceived erosion of civil liberties than they are about protecting their own lives.``
Kirsanow, who was appointed to the commission last year by President George W. Bush, said after the session that he personally doesn`t support such camps and the government would never envision them. He said he was merely saying public opinion would so strongly favor the idea that it would be difficult to prevent. There would be a ``groundswell of opinion`` for the
detainment, he said.
The remarks came during a raucous commission hearing in Detroit in which Kirsanow and another conservative member, Jennifer Braceras, defended U.S. antiterrorism efforts after Sept. 11.
A White House spokesman said Friday night that he could not respond specifically to Kirsanow`s comments without seeing a full transcript of
them, but said that the possibility of Arab internment camps has never been discussed at the White House…
The seven-member commission, based in Washington, D.C., was at the Omni Hotel in Detroit for its monthly meeting, and heard testimony from
Arab-American leaders who said the government abused civil rights following Sept. 11…
Kirsanow was unmoved, arguing that Arab and Muslim Americans should accept the country`s new antiterrorism laws and complain less about infringements to their civil rights.
If there`s another attack by Arabs on U.S. soil, ``not too many people will be crying in their beer if there are more detentions, more stops, more profiling,`` Kirsanow said.
``There will be a groundswell of public opinion to banish civil rights. So the best thing we can do to preserve them is by keeping the country safe…"
Braceras, another Bush appointee, said: ``There`s no constitutional right not to be inconvenienced or even embarrassed…"
Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
Important, significant, developments - Also note Pakistan has agreed that TAP may extend to India.
From Business Recorder of today:
``Trans-Afghan pipeline to be planted firmly
TARIQ SAEEDI
ASHGABAT (July 20 2002) : The Trans-Afghan Gas Pipeline (TAP), the long dormant project that hopes to pump Turkmen natural gas to markets in South Asia, is finally poised to step off the drawing board.
Fast paced developments during the last 6 weeks proved that Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are determined to make this pipeline become a reality against all odds.
On May 30, 2002, heads of Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan signed a tripartite accord in Islamabad to revive the `reluctant pipeline` and formed a high-level managing committee to oversee the progress of phase one of the project. Phase one includes identification of financiers, evaluation of potential markets, determination of principles to form a consortium, which will build, operate and own the pipeline and select consultant to oversee the project.
The managing committee, comprising Usman Aminuddin, Pakistani Minister of Petroleum and Natural Resources, Juma Mohammadi, Afghan Minister of Mines and Industry and Yolly Gurbanmuradov, Turkmen Deputy Minister responsible for oil and gas, met in Ashgabat on July, 2002, to compare notes and formulate future strategy for the implementation of the project.
The Ashgabat meeting was held in the all-marble exterior and all-glitter interior of Sardar business centre on the outskirts of Ashgabat. July 9, 2002 was a day full of surprises for the observers of Trans-Afghan pipeline project.
I was standing in the lobby of Sardar centre, waiting for Pakistani and Afghan delegations to arrive when a group of four persons entered through the revolving door; one Japanese, one European and two south Asian faces.
One of the South Asian faces was quite familiar but for a few moments I could not place him. The difficulty lay in the fact that he was the last person I would have expected to see in such an early stage of TAP negotiations: Rajiv Kumar, Principle Economist of Asian Development Bank (ADB). This was the first surprise of the day.
While I was chatting with Rajiv Kumar and his ADB delegation, the second surprise entered through the same revolving doors: Robert Tansey, deputy ambassador of the US in Ashgabat, flanked by John Jacobs, Economic Officer.
``We are attending the meeting as observers,`` said Tansey.
With ADB as participating delegates and the United States as observers, the TAP had already acquired an aura of `presence`, and the meeting had not yet begun.
Further surprise was in store when the meeting began in the left-wing conference room on the first floor.
``We are in talks with Turkmen government for the last one year about this project,`` said Rajiv Kumar of ADB.
He also informed that ADB will provide grant-in-aid for the combined pre-feasibility and feasibility study of the project.
Feasibility study, according to experts, could cost somewhere between $3-5 million, not exactly peanuts. The fact that a conservative financial institute like ADB came forward to foot the bill of study, speaks volumes not only about economic viability of TAP but also suggests that time may be ripe for looking at practical sides of the project.
To leave no doubts about commitment of ADB toward the project, Rajiv Kumar said in the concluding session of the meeting on July 10, ``Commercial interest is not the driving force for ADB to participate in this project. We are participating in this project to share and implement the vision which the three Heads of State [Pakistan, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan] have shown by signing the trilateral agreement in their summit meeting in Islamabad. Regional co-operation is a very high priority mandate of ADB. We will do our best to make this vision come through and to implement this historic project which will bring peace, prosperity and stability in the region.``
A delegate in the meeting mentioned off the record that ADB is likely to join as lead agency for financing the project.
A lucky day indeed for the Trans-Afghan pipeline to get a hat-trick of surprises, all contributing to the impression that the implementation stage may not be far off for the project which, till recently, has only drawn scepticism from friends and foes alike.
Although ADB cannot, and should not, be expected to finance the entire project -which may come to a hefty $2-4 billion - it is an undeniable fact that presence of ADB will work as a great confidence builder for other financiers. This solves one major worry of the planners of the project.
In October last year, when I spoke to Steven Mann, the US envoy on Caspian energy issues, he stated categorically that TAP cannot happen until these three problems are solved: 1. Financing of the project; 2. Security of the pipeline, specially in Afghanistan; and 3. Downstream problems ie who will buy the volumes pumped through the pipeline.
With ADB in the picture, financing problems seems at least partly addressed.
As far as security of the pipeline is concerned, I asked Juma Mohammadi, Afghan minister of mines and industry, about his views. He was confident that security of the pipeline in the territory of Afghanistan should not pose a big problem considering the fact that the project will bring prosperity to Afghanistan. `` The government and the people of Afghanistan are determined to go ahead with development of the country,`` he said.
I pointed out to him that recently, Vice President of Afghanistan, Haji Abdul Qadir has been assassinated in front of his office in Kabul in broad daylight, and he hailed from one of those provinces where the pipeline will be passing.
Juma Mohammadi, who has worked in the World Bank for 19 years, said, ``I don`t think the tragic death of Haji Abdul Qadir will have any adverse effect on the Trans-Afghan pipeline project.``
To allay any doubts, Mohammadi added, ``Things are moving in a satisfactory manner and all three countries have strong commitment for construction of this project.``
This was more or less what Donald Rumsfeld, US Secretary of Defence, said on April 28, 2002 in Turkmenbashy, the Caspian port city of Turkmenistan. When I asked him whether security conditions in Afghanistan have improved sufficiently for US oil and gas companies to come forward and invest in the Trans-Afghan pipeline project, he said, ``When refugees begin coming back, when the internally displaced people begin to return to their homes, that suggests that the situation is improving and that people are voting with their feet and they are voting `yes` that the situation has improved.``
To hammer the point home, Rumsfeld said, `` I will say that the security situation in Afghanistan is dramatically improved from what it was.``
The pipeline will be passing through five provinces of Afghanistan, three of which are controlled by self-styled `Emir` Ismail Khan and two are in the clutches of Gul Agha Sherzai, both former Mujahideen commanders.
Ismail Khan is being wooed actively by the US government. Rumsfeld visited him in the middle of night during his last visit to Afghanistan. Gul Agha will soon be visiting Washington to meet Bush. Whatever their merits or demerits, both have voiced strong support for the TAP because they understand the simple fact that the pipeline will bring in 12000 jobs to Afghanistan, provide much needed natural gas for domestic and commercial consumers and will guarantee a regular income of about US$ 300 million per annum in transit fees, an amount almost four times the annual budget of Afghanistan during Taleban regime.
Close observers can tell that the Afghan people do not look at US soldiers and the pipeline with the same eye. No one, not even an Afghan, will shoot his own bread, though soldiers in American uniforms may be a kosher target for some of them.
President Saparmurat Niyazov of Turkmenistan recently summed up the overall concept of TAP and its correlation with peace and stability in Afghanistan. During an interview on 28 May 2002, on the eve of his departure to Islamabad for tripartite summit, I asked him, ``What kind of influence will the [Trans-afghan] gas pipeline have on peace and stability in the region?
Niyazov said, ``Very direct. The gas pipeline is required to help integrate region`s states into world economic system, overcome disproportion in consumption and allocation existing at the present time of raw power.
Realisation of the project will usher in general economic uplift in the region, create conditions for close co-operation between countries, not only in economy but also in other fields. So the gas pipeline can play the role of a catalyst of processes of real economic integration between countries and peoples of the region, where not ideology, but the real economic benefit and expediency will dictate course and direction of political processes and inter-state relations. And this, in turn, will considerably increase the level of mutual understanding and trust among the countries.``
Apart from security and financing, the third problem remains identification of dedicated buyers to make the pipeline commercially viable. Managing committee hopes to thrash out at least the outlines of solution between now and 18 September 2002 when it will meet again in Kabul to review progress and decide principles for consortium formation. It is more than likely that by that time ADB will have some kind of commitment from India as potential buyer from the pipeline. Simultaneously, the committee will also evaluate market requirements in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Japan, Korea and other Asian countries where gas market has been expanding phenomenally during last 5 years.
If all goes well, the protocol signed by managing committee on 10 July in Ashgabat implies that by July 2003, a happy group of sturdy Afghans will begin striking their spades decisively to rip the dry Afghan soil open and start creating a 54-inches-wide channel for Trans-Afghan pipeline.
On the whole, it appears that forces of economy and will of the people have finally joined hands to plant the pipeline firmly and irrevocably on the South and Central Asian landscape.``
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 02:38 am
ChowkiesImportant, significant, developments - Also note Pakistan has agreed that TAP may extend to India.
From Business Recorder of today:
``Trans-Afghan pipeline to be planted firmly
TARIQ SAEEDI
ASHGABAT (July 20 2002) : The Trans-Afghan Gas Pipeline (TAP), the long dormant project that hopes to pump Turkmen natural gas to markets in South Asia, is finally poised to step off the drawing board.
Fast paced developments during the last 6 weeks proved that Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan are determined to make this pipeline become a reality against all odds.
On May 30, 2002, heads of Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan signed a tripartite accord in Islamabad to revive the `reluctant pipeline` and formed a high-level managing committee to oversee the progress of phase one of the project. Phase one includes identification of financiers, evaluation of potential markets, determination of principles to form a consortium, which will build, operate and own the pipeline and select consultant to oversee the project.
The managing committee, comprising Usman Aminuddin, Pakistani Minister of Petroleum and Natural Resources, Juma Mohammadi, Afghan Minister of Mines and Industry and Yolly Gurbanmuradov, Turkmen Deputy Minister responsible for oil and gas, met in Ashgabat on July, 2002, to compare notes and formulate future strategy for the implementation of the project.
The Ashgabat meeting was held in the all-marble exterior and all-glitter interior of Sardar business centre on the outskirts of Ashgabat. July 9, 2002 was a day full of surprises for the observers of Trans-Afghan pipeline project.
I was standing in the lobby of Sardar centre, waiting for Pakistani and Afghan delegations to arrive when a group of four persons entered through the revolving door; one Japanese, one European and two south Asian faces.
One of the South Asian faces was quite familiar but for a few moments I could not place him. The difficulty lay in the fact that he was the last person I would have expected to see in such an early stage of TAP negotiations: Rajiv Kumar, Principle Economist of Asian Development Bank (ADB). This was the first surprise of the day.
While I was chatting with Rajiv Kumar and his ADB delegation, the second surprise entered through the same revolving doors: Robert Tansey, deputy ambassador of the US in Ashgabat, flanked by John Jacobs, Economic Officer.
``We are attending the meeting as observers,`` said Tansey.
With ADB as participating delegates and the United States as observers, the TAP had already acquired an aura of `presence`, and the meeting had not yet begun.
Further surprise was in store when the meeting began in the left-wing conference room on the first floor.
``We are in talks with Turkmen government for the last one year about this project,`` said Rajiv Kumar of ADB.
He also informed that ADB will provide grant-in-aid for the combined pre-feasibility and feasibility study of the project.
Feasibility study, according to experts, could cost somewhere between $3-5 million, not exactly peanuts. The fact that a conservative financial institute like ADB came forward to foot the bill of study, speaks volumes not only about economic viability of TAP but also suggests that time may be ripe for looking at practical sides of the project.
To leave no doubts about commitment of ADB toward the project, Rajiv Kumar said in the concluding session of the meeting on July 10, ``Commercial interest is not the driving force for ADB to participate in this project. We are participating in this project to share and implement the vision which the three Heads of State [Pakistan, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan] have shown by signing the trilateral agreement in their summit meeting in Islamabad. Regional co-operation is a very high priority mandate of ADB. We will do our best to make this vision come through and to implement this historic project which will bring peace, prosperity and stability in the region.``
A delegate in the meeting mentioned off the record that ADB is likely to join as lead agency for financing the project.
A lucky day indeed for the Trans-Afghan pipeline to get a hat-trick of surprises, all contributing to the impression that the implementation stage may not be far off for the project which, till recently, has only drawn scepticism from friends and foes alike.
Although ADB cannot, and should not, be expected to finance the entire project -which may come to a hefty $2-4 billion - it is an undeniable fact that presence of ADB will work as a great confidence builder for other financiers. This solves one major worry of the planners of the project.
In October last year, when I spoke to Steven Mann, the US envoy on Caspian energy issues, he stated categorically that TAP cannot happen until these three problems are solved: 1. Financing of the project; 2. Security of the pipeline, specially in Afghanistan; and 3. Downstream problems ie who will buy the volumes pumped through the pipeline.
With ADB in the picture, financing problems seems at least partly addressed.
As far as security of the pipeline is concerned, I asked Juma Mohammadi, Afghan minister of mines and industry, about his views. He was confident that security of the pipeline in the territory of Afghanistan should not pose a big problem considering the fact that the project will bring prosperity to Afghanistan. `` The government and the people of Afghanistan are determined to go ahead with development of the country,`` he said.
I pointed out to him that recently, Vice President of Afghanistan, Haji Abdul Qadir has been assassinated in front of his office in Kabul in broad daylight, and he hailed from one of those provinces where the pipeline will be passing.
Juma Mohammadi, who has worked in the World Bank for 19 years, said, ``I don`t think the tragic death of Haji Abdul Qadir will have any adverse effect on the Trans-Afghan pipeline project.``
To allay any doubts, Mohammadi added, ``Things are moving in a satisfactory manner and all three countries have strong commitment for construction of this project.``
This was more or less what Donald Rumsfeld, US Secretary of Defence, said on April 28, 2002 in Turkmenbashy, the Caspian port city of Turkmenistan. When I asked him whether security conditions in Afghanistan have improved sufficiently for US oil and gas companies to come forward and invest in the Trans-Afghan pipeline project, he said, ``When refugees begin coming back, when the internally displaced people begin to return to their homes, that suggests that the situation is improving and that people are voting with their feet and they are voting `yes` that the situation has improved.``
To hammer the point home, Rumsfeld said, `` I will say that the security situation in Afghanistan is dramatically improved from what it was.``
The pipeline will be passing through five provinces of Afghanistan, three of which are controlled by self-styled `Emir` Ismail Khan and two are in the clutches of Gul Agha Sherzai, both former Mujahideen commanders.
Ismail Khan is being wooed actively by the US government. Rumsfeld visited him in the middle of night during his last visit to Afghanistan. Gul Agha will soon be visiting Washington to meet Bush. Whatever their merits or demerits, both have voiced strong support for the TAP because they understand the simple fact that the pipeline will bring in 12000 jobs to Afghanistan, provide much needed natural gas for domestic and commercial consumers and will guarantee a regular income of about US$ 300 million per annum in transit fees, an amount almost four times the annual budget of Afghanistan during Taleban regime.
Close observers can tell that the Afghan people do not look at US soldiers and the pipeline with the same eye. No one, not even an Afghan, will shoot his own bread, though soldiers in American uniforms may be a kosher target for some of them.
President Saparmurat Niyazov of Turkmenistan recently summed up the overall concept of TAP and its correlation with peace and stability in Afghanistan. During an interview on 28 May 2002, on the eve of his departure to Islamabad for tripartite summit, I asked him, ``What kind of influence will the [Trans-afghan] gas pipeline have on peace and stability in the region?
Niyazov said, ``Very direct. The gas pipeline is required to help integrate region`s states into world economic system, overcome disproportion in consumption and allocation existing at the present time of raw power.
Realisation of the project will usher in general economic uplift in the region, create conditions for close co-operation between countries, not only in economy but also in other fields. So the gas pipeline can play the role of a catalyst of processes of real economic integration between countries and peoples of the region, where not ideology, but the real economic benefit and expediency will dictate course and direction of political processes and inter-state relations. And this, in turn, will considerably increase the level of mutual understanding and trust among the countries.``
Apart from security and financing, the third problem remains identification of dedicated buyers to make the pipeline commercially viable. Managing committee hopes to thrash out at least the outlines of solution between now and 18 September 2002 when it will meet again in Kabul to review progress and decide principles for consortium formation. It is more than likely that by that time ADB will have some kind of commitment from India as potential buyer from the pipeline. Simultaneously, the committee will also evaluate market requirements in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Japan, Korea and other Asian countries where gas market has been expanding phenomenally during last 5 years.
If all goes well, the protocol signed by managing committee on 10 July in Ashgabat implies that by July 2003, a happy group of sturdy Afghans will begin striking their spades decisively to rip the dry Afghan soil open and start creating a 54-inches-wide channel for Trans-Afghan pipeline.
On the whole, it appears that forces of economy and will of the people have finally joined hands to plant the pipeline firmly and irrevocably on the South and Central Asian landscape.``
Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
look to history - Whenever a movement of conscience has been surpressed - a stage is set for it`s ultimate redemption and victory. Less people are showing up for two reasons, in my opinion:
1. FBI - not so secret police
2. Large numbers of Muslims are immigrants who neither know their rights nor have access to legal resources and the fear for themselves and their families.
Together, these two items serve as instruments of suppression, indeed a dark episode in the history of the US and that of Islam.
Brother man, witness the Glory of God, the flame of faith, of conscience, burns brighter as efforts to extinguish such a flame are at their rabid frenzy. Allah has not brought His creature this far to abandon his creature to the whims and fury of mere men.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 02:38 am
Fawadlook to history - Whenever a movement of conscience has been surpressed - a stage is set for it`s ultimate redemption and victory. Less people are showing up for two reasons, in my opinion:
1. FBI - not so secret police
2. Large numbers of Muslims are immigrants who neither know their rights nor have access to legal resources and the fear for themselves and their families.
Together, these two items serve as instruments of suppression, indeed a dark episode in the history of the US and that of Islam.
Brother man, witness the Glory of God, the flame of faith, of conscience, burns brighter as efforts to extinguish such a flame are at their rabid frenzy. Allah has not brought His creature this far to abandon his creature to the whims and fury of mere men.
Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
Thank you for taking the time for that omplete and sensitive response. I think you know where I stand.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 02:38 am
RomairThank you for taking the time for that omplete and sensitive response. I think you know where I stand.
Coney Al Jazeera
Did Judaism end, did Christianity? Does faith end, Can God`s mercy ever end?
SaminaShah
My condolences for your loss. Anger and despair are no substitute for reason. Please be assured of my good will and please do take the following in a constructive manner, I mean no disrepect or injury. To what degree were/are these women in the episode you recounted responsible for the way they are treated by ``their`` men? Which Imam or which man can stop anyone who wants to at the grave of her father??? When will women realize that respect and freedom are not commodities that are given to anybody, rather they assumed. As I write these lines I am conscious that you may feel very close to this incident and may find an injury in words - sincerely, I regret it if you will. I mean no injury.
``truth`` as journey was to suggest method - that`s all and I am sorry for your loss and for your experience of disregard.
My father passed away on a mediterrean island and the hospital insisted that they would remove his viscera - the anger rose in me such that had not the hospital staff stepped in, the administrator and I would have been involved in a physical altercation. I contacted the Islamic society in the city I was living in the US, they arranged a place, they assited me with all the papers to bring my father`s body to the US, they arranged the namaz and the viewing and a multitude of cars follwed the hearse to the cemetery and offered prayers to God to forgive and accept his creature. How beautiful was my father. Now, I am neither a namazi or a Masjid going type nor did I ever met any of these persons - I knew none there other than my family members. On the island my father passed away, his body was washed by his neighbor and friend who was also a shaikh - I needed clearnces from American embassy, a fortress like structure. The Counsul could not have been more understanding, more sympathetic. He it turned out had family who were also Muslims. In this experience I met persons for the first time in my life who convinced me of the hatred some felt towards Muslims (an idea of which I can say that I was completely unaware of. It never occured to me that I would experience it) and on the other hand I met so many, many compassionate persons who did not ask for money, they did not ask me to set up an appointment - they simply helped me as a fellow Muslim who needed this help, out of their conviction and of their understanding of a human and religious obligation. Sabr, don`t let bitterness come to your heart. My young sister who I imagine is about your age, was a DJ for a radio show on this island and for the hearing of whose voice, my father resisted and kept death at bay, could not attend her fathers funeral, she was not elegible for a visa. Allah has a plan for each of his creatures and in the most testing of times, we can be assured that He carries us in palm of His hand.
temporal
What kind of clue is, `disciple of Wise ``bird``?
now that I am one (UKP) and since the anticipation has built up - whatever this is, it had better be good.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 20, 2002 02:38 am
FawadDid Judaism end, did Christianity? Does faith end, Can God`s mercy ever end?
SaminaShah
My condolences for your loss. Anger and despair are no substitute for reason. Please be assured of my good will and please do take the following in a constructive manner, I mean no disrepect or injury. To what degree were/are these women in the episode you recounted responsible for the way they are treated by ``their`` men? Which Imam or which man can stop anyone who wants to at the grave of her father??? When will women realize that respect and freedom are not commodities that are given to anybody, rather they assumed. As I write these lines I am conscious that you may feel very close to this incident and may find an injury in words - sincerely, I regret it if you will. I mean no injury.
``truth`` as journey was to suggest method - that`s all and I am sorry for your loss and for your experience of disregard.
My father passed away on a mediterrean island and the hospital insisted that they would remove his viscera - the anger rose in me such that had not the hospital staff stepped in, the administrator and I would have been involved in a physical altercation. I contacted the Islamic society in the city I was living in the US, they arranged a place, they assited me with all the papers to bring my father`s body to the US, they arranged the namaz and the viewing and a multitude of cars follwed the hearse to the cemetery and offered prayers to God to forgive and accept his creature. How beautiful was my father. Now, I am neither a namazi or a Masjid going type nor did I ever met any of these persons - I knew none there other than my family members. On the island my father passed away, his body was washed by his neighbor and friend who was also a shaikh - I needed clearnces from American embassy, a fortress like structure. The Counsul could not have been more understanding, more sympathetic. He it turned out had family who were also Muslims. In this experience I met persons for the first time in my life who convinced me of the hatred some felt towards Muslims (an idea of which I can say that I was completely unaware of. It never occured to me that I would experience it) and on the other hand I met so many, many compassionate persons who did not ask for money, they did not ask me to set up an appointment - they simply helped me as a fellow Muslim who needed this help, out of their conviction and of their understanding of a human and religious obligation. Sabr, don`t let bitterness come to your heart. My young sister who I imagine is about your age, was a DJ for a radio show on this island and for the hearing of whose voice, my father resisted and kept death at bay, could not attend her fathers funeral, she was not elegible for a visa. Allah has a plan for each of his creatures and in the most testing of times, we can be assured that He carries us in palm of His hand.
temporal
What kind of clue is, `disciple of Wise ``bird``?
now that I am one (UKP) and since the anticipation has built up - whatever this is, it had better be good.
What it means to be me in Corporate America?
Bravo! and you are not now, nor will you be, alone.
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 19, 2002 06:21 pm
``Pakistan doesn’t need us, we need Pakistan. I’ll keep hanging on.``Bravo! and you are not now, nor will you be, alone.
Does a Bachelor’s degree mean education in politics
Formally, academically educated legislators are necessary for the functioning of a legislature. Think of the men and women who created Pakistan and India – were they not formally educated, were they not highly educated lawyers? Does the present and any predicatable near future, allow us to believe that our lives, our institutions will be better served by persons with little or no formal education? Isn’t the opposite the case?
“In a democratic environment, the electorate is free to elect a candidate of their choice.”
Incredible! Unimaginably ignorant. Would it be fair to say that it is a REQUIREMENT that the candidate in question be a citizen? Would it be fair to say that such a candidate not be a convicted criminal serving his/her sentence? Would it be fair to say that such a candidate not be a person who by common sense and consensus, we may agree is very young, for instance, a person who is not yet of 18 years of age? If these seem fair to us and we agree that there are requirements that must be met to be considered a candidate for the office of representative to the national legislature – We have established that candidates to the national legislature must meet certain requirements. Now, as we agree on the question of requirements, how then can we disagree, that the requirement most directly related to the ability of the candidate to SERVE (not perform, as if some circus clown), that is to say, a formal education? Does a legislature have anything to do with Laws? Ought Laws to be the purview of the uneducated? This relates directly to the degree of one’s education or ignorance of the reason of and for Democracy.
Democracy is a form of government which seeks to harness power of rulers, that is to say, that it inherently mistrusts power even as it recognizes it’s utility. Informed as it is of the nature of power, that it lends itself to abuse, it calls for the separation of powers (not balance of powers). Democracy by harnessing and separating the power of rulers seeks in this way to rationalize the policies of the rulers, protect the rights of citizens and attain the public good. Its method includes the establishment of a representative legislature, consultative assemblies on every level of decision making, peaceful transfer of power, legal impeachment of rulers, freedom of expression, plurality of political expression, public education and the freedom of press and such.
“A government cannot presuppose that a candidate will perform better as a representative simply because he holds a Bachelor’s degree. Whether a candidate’s academic qualifications equip him better to represent his constituency, only his constituents can determine, not a government.”
Indeed? Can one, presuppose, that a candidate without a university education is better able to serve? Is education a requirement at all? If it is, then Mr. Davar’s position ought to be how much education is appropriate and indeed it is – the lack of university education disqualifies candidates on behalf of whom he argues, he seeks to tilt the field in favor of those less educated, therefore less able to serve as legislators. But why just use a university education or undergraduate requirement? Why not Matric or Masters and Phd or a law degree? It has already been established that there are requirements for candidacy, why ought not these other possible requirements be considered? In my opinion they ought to be. Persons desiring to be physicians educate and undergo training, the same with engineers, actually, in most all professions – the same ought to apply to legislators.
“By mandating this requirement, the government has distorted the right of the voters to determine the criteria by which they will elect their representatives.” A ridiculous argument – it supposes that no a priori propositions exist. As if we can argue whether we voted to give ourselves the right to vote. In his piece Mr. Davar points out and his piece is an example of it, that there is debate - how then has the right of the voter been distorted?
“With that, the objective of the elections to produce an assembly that performs the function of representing the voters has been compromised.”
On the contrary, a Democracy is not majoritarianism, it is government of and by LAWS. This partricular requirement was challenged in the supreme court and supreme court has decided it’s legitimacy. Shall we not be ruled by law? Shall we become the rule of the mob because uneducated or undereducated shall not be eligible? Will we next argue that the standards of education and training of those who wish to be physicians or engineers or legislators be degraded to allow greater representation of the lazy in these fields of endeavor?
“A quasi-representative assembly that lacks popular credentials will remain in conflict with non-elected popular leaders and widen the chasm between public opinion and government officials.”
“Popular credentials”? Winning the election is popuylar credentials`` enough? indeed, the elected if they be elected by persons in districts where the level of education and the number of educated is low, ought themselves be less educated – how is this argument different from arguing that only Muslims may represent Muslims? Can a Muslim elected in a largely non-Muslim district really have “popular credentials”?
“It is debatable whether the Bachelor’s degree holding candidates who get elected will meet the expectations that are being raised of them for falling in the educated category.”
Debate itself is the hallmark of freedom as value in society. Village idiots of construct circular arguments, beware!
“Just having been schooled to acquire an academic credential does not mean one is educated enough to perform a task that has nothing (at times even something) to do with ones schooling.”
The tyranny of the ignorant is a better alternative? What academic credentials suggest is that the holder of those credentials has acquired knowledge and training in the method of education and that they have the training to acquire greater knowledge and to act upon it.
“Education can be acquired through experience and not necessarily only through formal schooling. A popular leader with no degree but a lifetime in politics could be better educated to represent his constituents than a Bachelor’s in Art History.”
Indeed no education, especially formal university education is required for those who aspire to the field of politics and the requirement of BA is for those who have such aspirations. The requirement of the BA is incumbent on those who desire to serve as legislators, that legislators can also be politicians does not mean that their ablity to serve requires that they not meet the requirement prescribed by law. The standards for legislators and politicians ought therefore to be higher, not lower. It is a great responsibilty they aspire to and it is a great confidence that they seek - they ought to aspire a similar confidence among voters who can judge ability to serve and dedication to values such as the creation of a better life through education
Experience is a great teacher – The next time you wish to consult a physician, in your case, a neurosurgeon (unfortunately lobotomy is not a reversable procedure), by all means consult one that has not fulfilled the requirement of education and training, one who does not have “academic credentials”.
Think! Mr. Davar, If it is true that experience is a great teacher and that we ought to be grateful for such men and women, think, how much grateful we would be if such experience was coupple with the determination to acquire a formal education, and one that meets the minimal requirement of law.
“In a country where neither past governments nor the present one has fulfilled the responsibility of providing the masses with access to schools and universities, the Bachelor’s degree requirement is a mismatch with the realities of grassroots politics in Pakistan.”
Indeed, and you would have us believe that persons who have themselves not seen any value in formal education would nevertheless, want the citizens of this country to have greater access to schools and universities? Thieves will create academies to turn out police persons, will they? No sir, we will nver concede that an OUGHT CAN BE DERIVED FROM AN IS.
“No government can arbitrarily declare its citizens to hold a minimum academic standard unless it has first made literacy commonplace.”
Why stop there Mr. Davar? Why not argue that democractic governance is not possible unless literacy is commonplace? That as literacy is not common place, laws may not be enacted, indeed, obeyed?
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 19, 2002 06:21 pm
Does a Bachelor’s degree mean education in politics?Formally, academically educated legislators are necessary for the functioning of a legislature. Think of the men and women who created Pakistan and India – were they not formally educated, were they not highly educated lawyers? Does the present and any predicatable near future, allow us to believe that our lives, our institutions will be better served by persons with little or no formal education? Isn’t the opposite the case?
“In a democratic environment, the electorate is free to elect a candidate of their choice.”
Incredible! Unimaginably ignorant. Would it be fair to say that it is a REQUIREMENT that the candidate in question be a citizen? Would it be fair to say that such a candidate not be a convicted criminal serving his/her sentence? Would it be fair to say that such a candidate not be a person who by common sense and consensus, we may agree is very young, for instance, a person who is not yet of 18 years of age? If these seem fair to us and we agree that there are requirements that must be met to be considered a candidate for the office of representative to the national legislature – We have established that candidates to the national legislature must meet certain requirements. Now, as we agree on the question of requirements, how then can we disagree, that the requirement most directly related to the ability of the candidate to SERVE (not perform, as if some circus clown), that is to say, a formal education? Does a legislature have anything to do with Laws? Ought Laws to be the purview of the uneducated? This relates directly to the degree of one’s education or ignorance of the reason of and for Democracy.
Democracy is a form of government which seeks to harness power of rulers, that is to say, that it inherently mistrusts power even as it recognizes it’s utility. Informed as it is of the nature of power, that it lends itself to abuse, it calls for the separation of powers (not balance of powers). Democracy by harnessing and separating the power of rulers seeks in this way to rationalize the policies of the rulers, protect the rights of citizens and attain the public good. Its method includes the establishment of a representative legislature, consultative assemblies on every level of decision making, peaceful transfer of power, legal impeachment of rulers, freedom of expression, plurality of political expression, public education and the freedom of press and such.
“A government cannot presuppose that a candidate will perform better as a representative simply because he holds a Bachelor’s degree. Whether a candidate’s academic qualifications equip him better to represent his constituency, only his constituents can determine, not a government.”
Indeed? Can one, presuppose, that a candidate without a university education is better able to serve? Is education a requirement at all? If it is, then Mr. Davar’s position ought to be how much education is appropriate and indeed it is – the lack of university education disqualifies candidates on behalf of whom he argues, he seeks to tilt the field in favor of those less educated, therefore less able to serve as legislators. But why just use a university education or undergraduate requirement? Why not Matric or Masters and Phd or a law degree? It has already been established that there are requirements for candidacy, why ought not these other possible requirements be considered? In my opinion they ought to be. Persons desiring to be physicians educate and undergo training, the same with engineers, actually, in most all professions – the same ought to apply to legislators.
“By mandating this requirement, the government has distorted the right of the voters to determine the criteria by which they will elect their representatives.” A ridiculous argument – it supposes that no a priori propositions exist. As if we can argue whether we voted to give ourselves the right to vote. In his piece Mr. Davar points out and his piece is an example of it, that there is debate - how then has the right of the voter been distorted?
“With that, the objective of the elections to produce an assembly that performs the function of representing the voters has been compromised.”
On the contrary, a Democracy is not majoritarianism, it is government of and by LAWS. This partricular requirement was challenged in the supreme court and supreme court has decided it’s legitimacy. Shall we not be ruled by law? Shall we become the rule of the mob because uneducated or undereducated shall not be eligible? Will we next argue that the standards of education and training of those who wish to be physicians or engineers or legislators be degraded to allow greater representation of the lazy in these fields of endeavor?
“A quasi-representative assembly that lacks popular credentials will remain in conflict with non-elected popular leaders and widen the chasm between public opinion and government officials.”
“Popular credentials”? Winning the election is popuylar credentials`` enough? indeed, the elected if they be elected by persons in districts where the level of education and the number of educated is low, ought themselves be less educated – how is this argument different from arguing that only Muslims may represent Muslims? Can a Muslim elected in a largely non-Muslim district really have “popular credentials”?
“It is debatable whether the Bachelor’s degree holding candidates who get elected will meet the expectations that are being raised of them for falling in the educated category.”
Debate itself is the hallmark of freedom as value in society. Village idiots of construct circular arguments, beware!
“Just having been schooled to acquire an academic credential does not mean one is educated enough to perform a task that has nothing (at times even something) to do with ones schooling.”
The tyranny of the ignorant is a better alternative? What academic credentials suggest is that the holder of those credentials has acquired knowledge and training in the method of education and that they have the training to acquire greater knowledge and to act upon it.
“Education can be acquired through experience and not necessarily only through formal schooling. A popular leader with no degree but a lifetime in politics could be better educated to represent his constituents than a Bachelor’s in Art History.”
Indeed no education, especially formal university education is required for those who aspire to the field of politics and the requirement of BA is for those who have such aspirations. The requirement of the BA is incumbent on those who desire to serve as legislators, that legislators can also be politicians does not mean that their ablity to serve requires that they not meet the requirement prescribed by law. The standards for legislators and politicians ought therefore to be higher, not lower. It is a great responsibilty they aspire to and it is a great confidence that they seek - they ought to aspire a similar confidence among voters who can judge ability to serve and dedication to values such as the creation of a better life through education
Experience is a great teacher – The next time you wish to consult a physician, in your case, a neurosurgeon (unfortunately lobotomy is not a reversable procedure), by all means consult one that has not fulfilled the requirement of education and training, one who does not have “academic credentials”.
Think! Mr. Davar, If it is true that experience is a great teacher and that we ought to be grateful for such men and women, think, how much grateful we would be if such experience was coupple with the determination to acquire a formal education, and one that meets the minimal requirement of law.
“In a country where neither past governments nor the present one has fulfilled the responsibility of providing the masses with access to schools and universities, the Bachelor’s degree requirement is a mismatch with the realities of grassroots politics in Pakistan.”
Indeed, and you would have us believe that persons who have themselves not seen any value in formal education would nevertheless, want the citizens of this country to have greater access to schools and universities? Thieves will create academies to turn out police persons, will they? No sir, we will nver concede that an OUGHT CAN BE DERIVED FROM AN IS.
“No government can arbitrarily declare its citizens to hold a minimum academic standard unless it has first made literacy commonplace.”
Why stop there Mr. Davar? Why not argue that democractic governance is not possible unless literacy is commonplace? That as literacy is not common place, laws may not be enacted, indeed, obeyed?
Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
For long I have invited you examine clearly the case of Islam and that of obscuritanism. Many criticism of the understanding of Islam are indeed valid and do form what is understood as Obscuritanism. Today the picture tilts towards the obscuritanists, BUT more and more Islam is being reclaimed and it is God`s mercy; more and more, we see the desperation of the Obscuritanists and more and more we shed light on the blight they inflicted. Lets remind ourselves of the words of the benevolent scholar, Allahmah Mohammed Iqbal Lahori, these words are even more potent, offer even greater light today than when first penned - From his magnus opus ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought`` (Caps are mine)
``...Is it then possible to apply the purely rational method of philosophy to Religion? The spirit of philosophy is one of free inquiry. It suspects all authority. Its function is to trace the uncritical assumptions of human thought to their hiding place, And in this pursuit it may finally end in denial or a frank admission of the incapacity of pure reason to reach ultimate Reality.
The essence of religion, on the other hand, is faith; and faith, like the bird, sees its “trackless way” unattended by intellect which in the words of the great mystic poet of Islam “only waylays the living heart of man and robs it of the invisible wealth of life that lies within”. Yet it cannot be denied that faith is more than feeling. It has something like a COGNITIVE content, and the existence of rival parties-scholastics and mystics- in the history of religion shows that idea is a vital element in religion.
Religion on its doctrinal side, as defined by Professor Whitehead, is a “system of general truths, which have the effect of transforming character when they are sincerely held and vividly apprehended”. Now, since the transformation and guidance of man’s inner and outer life is the essential aim of religion, it is obvious that the general truths which it embodies must not remain unsettled. No one would hazard action based on the basis of a doubtful principle of conduct. Indeed, in view of its function, religion stands in greater need of a rational foundation of its ultimate principles than even the dogmas of science. Science may ignore a rational metaphysics; indeed, it has ignored it so far. Religion can hardly afford to ignore the search for a RECONCILIATION of the OPPOSITIONS of EXPERIENCE and a justification of the environment in which humanity finds itself. That is why Professor Whitehead has acutely remarked that “ THE AGES OF FAITH ARE THE AGES OF RATIONALISM.” But to rationalize faith is not to admit the superiority of philosophy over religion. Philosophy, no doubt, has jurisdiction to judge religion, but what is to be judged is of such a nature that it will not submit to the jurisdiction of philosophy except on its own terms. While sitting in judgement on religion, philosophy cannot give religion an inferior place in its data. Religion is not a departmental affair; it is NEITHER MERE THOUGHT, NOR MERE FEELING, NOR MERE ACTION; it the expression of the WHOLE man. Thus, in the evaluation of religion, philosophy must recognize the central position of religion and has no other alternative but to admit it as something focal in the process of reflective SYNTHESIS. NOR IS THERE IS ANY REASON TO SUPPOSE THAT THOUGHT AND INTUITION ARE ESSENTIALLY OPPOSED TO EACH OTHER. They spring up from the SAME ROOT and COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER. The one grasps reality piecemeal, and the other grasps it in its wholeness. The one fixes it gaze on the eternal, the other on the temporal aspect of Reality. The one is present enjoyment of the whole of Reality; the other aims at traversing the whole by slowly specifying and closing up the various regions of the whole for exclusive observation. Both are in need of each other for mutual rejuvenation. Both seek visions of the same reality which reveals itself to them in accordance with their function in life. In fact, intuition, as Bergson rightly says, is only a higher kind of intellect.
The search for rational foundations in Islam may be regarded as have begun with the holy prophet…"
From DAWN dtd today
``A Religion of Reasoning
By Haider Zaman
The main argument that the unbelievers used to put forward for not accepting the message conveyed by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was that why did he not display any miracle. In reply the Quran said ``And we refrain from sending the signs (miracles) because men of the former generations treated them false (17:59).
The other reason was implicit in another Quranic verse which said ``O, Prophet invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and excellent preachings and argue with people in the best manner`` (16:125). The words ``wisdom``, ``excellent preachings`` and ``argue with people in the best manner`` in this verse, among other things, implied the extensive use of knowledge and reasoning in the process of preaching and arguing with people.
In fact, with the revelation of the Quran started a new era - the era of reasoning and enlightenment. We cannot deny the role of miracles because Allah in His Wisdom did give miracles, in one form or another, to the prophets which helped them in carrying out their messages across. But at the same time we have to accept that a miracle has a limited scope of influence and vitality.
Firstly it appeals only to sentiments rather than the reason. Secondly only those persons are convinced by the miracles who actually see them. With the passage of time, people either start forgetting them or questioning their authenticity. Hence, reliance on miracles could not have been an appropriate course for the last of all religions to follow.
There was need for adopting a course that could ensure the acceptability of its message at all times to come. That could be possible only by appealing to the intellect, reason and conscience of the people instead of relying on miracles. Therefore, with the revelation of the Quran, the reliance shifted from sentimentalism and emotionalism to reasoning, reflecting, deducting and understanding. Out of the total of 6666 verses of the Quran about 756 verses emphasize reflecting, listening, pondering, knowing and understanding.
In the past, the word ``sign`` was used for a miracle. But in the Quran it is used for something definite and within the comprehension of every one. That is why with every reference to a sign there is due emphasis on reflecting and pondering over the sign referred to (30:22). Some of the signs referred to frequently in the Quran are the creation and existence of certain objects that one can see with the naked eyes like the sun, moon and various other celestial bodies (50:6).
Some are the orderly movements and functioning of such objects like the movement of various celestial bodies in their orbits (36:40) capable of being proved by unrefutable evidence. Some of the signs are the clear-cut and verifiable conclusions one can draw from certain creation and their functioning like the maintenance of balance and the resultant harmony one can note while reflecting over the existence of countless celestial bodies (55:7,8). Some are the provision of things in due measure necessary for sustaining life on earth (15:19), (30:40) so evident that they require no proof. And some are the events that have actually happened.
In short all the signs referred to in the Quran are such that their existence or happening cannot be denied. As the Quran says ``Say thou: This is my way: I do invite unto Allah on evidence clear as the seeing with one`s eyes`` (12:108).
Reflection over the signs, referred to in the Quran, has a twofold object. One is to strengthen faith in the existence and Unity of Allah and the other is to make use of such signs and the conclusions drawn there from for the benefit of mankind. For example, reflection over the degree of balance and harmony that exists in the creation tells us about two things. One is that such balance could not have been established and maintained without there being a single and highly skilled Creator and Designer.
According to Charles Townes, a noted physicist who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize in physics, ``recent discoveries in cosmology reveal a Universe that fits the religious views that some intelligence must have been involved in the laws of Universe.`` The other is that it is because of such balance and the resultant harmony that the system has survived for billions of years. Hence, the first thing one should learn could be to have faith in the existence and Unity of Allah. That`s why the Prophet said that ``contemplation over and study of Allah`s creation for a while is better than a year`s prayers.``
According to the renowned scientist Einstein, ``God reveals Himself in the harmony that exists in the creation.`` The second thing that one should learn could be that the secret of survival lies in harmony and that harmony can be possible only through the maintenance of balance. This provides an excellent example for the people to follow and emulate in their own spheres of activities. According to Martin Lings, ``harmony is the imprint of Oneness upon multiplicity, and the Quran draws attention to that harmony for man`s meditation.``
Thus, after the revelation of the Quran, there was no need for any miracle or any thing of that kind. In fact, the Quran itself could be the greatest of all miracles. According to Husayn Haykal, a renowned Egyptian scholar,`` history has not reported to us that any of those early companions had entered faith because of miracles witnessed. Rather it was the conclusive Divine argument conveyed through the revelation and the superlatively noble life of the Prophet that conduced those men to faith.`` The Prophet himself said that ``every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed him, but what I have been given is Divine inspiration and that which Allah revealed to me (the Quran).``
The Quran while enjoining belief in the unseen (2:3), also emphasises the need for pondering and reflecting over various facets of the creation so that any one having such faith can test its authenticity on the touchstone of reasoning and the conclusion drawn there from. It also goes to the credit of the Quran that it gives due importance to the acquisition of knowledge which, among other things, enhances the scope of the process of pondering and reasoning making it capable of being used for the benefit of mankind.
The importance that the Quran gives to the knowledge is manifest from its very first verses revealed to the Prophet which said ``read and thy Lord is the Most Gracious Who taught knowledge by pen: taught man that which he did not know`` (96:4,5). Soon after the revelation of these verses, another verse was revealed which again stressed the importance of knowledge but in a different way i.e. through the Divine oath by the pen and that which is written with it (68:1). Besides, the importance of knowledge is conveyed to us through a practical example, namely, the outcome of the test to which Adam and angels were put together.
There are also a number of sayings of the Prophet emphasising the need for the acquisition of knowledge so much so that he said that the ``Day of Judgment will be the Day on which the knowledge is lifted from the world`` (Bukhari). Another Quranic verse which says ``O Lord advance me in knowledge`` (20:114) conveys the message that there should be no end to the acquisition of knowledge. This was further clarified by the Prophet when he said ``go on acquiring knowledge from cradle to grave.``
It also goes to the credit of the Quran that the Muslim scientists and scholars, inspired by its teachings, played pivotal role in the acquisition and dissemination of different kinds of knowledge - a fact that has been acknowledged the world over. According to Robert Brifault ``the light from which civilization was once more kindled, did not arise from any embers of Graeco-Roman culture smouldering among the ruins of Europe, nor from the living death on the Bosphorous. It did not come from the northern but from the southern invaders of Europe, from the Saracens (Arabs).``
J.W. Draper in his book ``The history of the intellectual development of Europe`` observes that the Quran gave science to two continents, Asia and Europe. Will Durant in his book Civilisation Vol-II observes ``Islam led the world in power, order and extent of government, in refinement of manners, in standards of living, in human legislation and religious tolerance, scholarship, science, medicine and philosophy.``
The Cambridge history of Islam highlights the contribution of Islam thus ``Muslim civilisation acted as a teacher to medieval Europe in virtually all branches of knowledge including philosophy and medicine, mathematics, astronomy and astrology.`` That`s why the French biographer of the Prophet, Henry Comte de Boulainvillier, calls him (the Prophet) as the fore-runner of the age of reason and enlightenment.``
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 19, 2002 06:21 pm
Chowkies, Rejoice!For long I have invited you examine clearly the case of Islam and that of obscuritanism. Many criticism of the understanding of Islam are indeed valid and do form what is understood as Obscuritanism. Today the picture tilts towards the obscuritanists, BUT more and more Islam is being reclaimed and it is God`s mercy; more and more, we see the desperation of the Obscuritanists and more and more we shed light on the blight they inflicted. Lets remind ourselves of the words of the benevolent scholar, Allahmah Mohammed Iqbal Lahori, these words are even more potent, offer even greater light today than when first penned - From his magnus opus ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought`` (Caps are mine)
``...Is it then possible to apply the purely rational method of philosophy to Religion? The spirit of philosophy is one of free inquiry. It suspects all authority. Its function is to trace the uncritical assumptions of human thought to their hiding place, And in this pursuit it may finally end in denial or a frank admission of the incapacity of pure reason to reach ultimate Reality.
The essence of religion, on the other hand, is faith; and faith, like the bird, sees its “trackless way” unattended by intellect which in the words of the great mystic poet of Islam “only waylays the living heart of man and robs it of the invisible wealth of life that lies within”. Yet it cannot be denied that faith is more than feeling. It has something like a COGNITIVE content, and the existence of rival parties-scholastics and mystics- in the history of religion shows that idea is a vital element in religion.
Religion on its doctrinal side, as defined by Professor Whitehead, is a “system of general truths, which have the effect of transforming character when they are sincerely held and vividly apprehended”. Now, since the transformation and guidance of man’s inner and outer life is the essential aim of religion, it is obvious that the general truths which it embodies must not remain unsettled. No one would hazard action based on the basis of a doubtful principle of conduct. Indeed, in view of its function, religion stands in greater need of a rational foundation of its ultimate principles than even the dogmas of science. Science may ignore a rational metaphysics; indeed, it has ignored it so far. Religion can hardly afford to ignore the search for a RECONCILIATION of the OPPOSITIONS of EXPERIENCE and a justification of the environment in which humanity finds itself. That is why Professor Whitehead has acutely remarked that “ THE AGES OF FAITH ARE THE AGES OF RATIONALISM.” But to rationalize faith is not to admit the superiority of philosophy over religion. Philosophy, no doubt, has jurisdiction to judge religion, but what is to be judged is of such a nature that it will not submit to the jurisdiction of philosophy except on its own terms. While sitting in judgement on religion, philosophy cannot give religion an inferior place in its data. Religion is not a departmental affair; it is NEITHER MERE THOUGHT, NOR MERE FEELING, NOR MERE ACTION; it the expression of the WHOLE man. Thus, in the evaluation of religion, philosophy must recognize the central position of religion and has no other alternative but to admit it as something focal in the process of reflective SYNTHESIS. NOR IS THERE IS ANY REASON TO SUPPOSE THAT THOUGHT AND INTUITION ARE ESSENTIALLY OPPOSED TO EACH OTHER. They spring up from the SAME ROOT and COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER. The one grasps reality piecemeal, and the other grasps it in its wholeness. The one fixes it gaze on the eternal, the other on the temporal aspect of Reality. The one is present enjoyment of the whole of Reality; the other aims at traversing the whole by slowly specifying and closing up the various regions of the whole for exclusive observation. Both are in need of each other for mutual rejuvenation. Both seek visions of the same reality which reveals itself to them in accordance with their function in life. In fact, intuition, as Bergson rightly says, is only a higher kind of intellect.
The search for rational foundations in Islam may be regarded as have begun with the holy prophet…"
From DAWN dtd today
``A Religion of Reasoning
By Haider Zaman
The main argument that the unbelievers used to put forward for not accepting the message conveyed by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was that why did he not display any miracle. In reply the Quran said ``And we refrain from sending the signs (miracles) because men of the former generations treated them false (17:59).
The other reason was implicit in another Quranic verse which said ``O, Prophet invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and excellent preachings and argue with people in the best manner`` (16:125). The words ``wisdom``, ``excellent preachings`` and ``argue with people in the best manner`` in this verse, among other things, implied the extensive use of knowledge and reasoning in the process of preaching and arguing with people.
In fact, with the revelation of the Quran started a new era - the era of reasoning and enlightenment. We cannot deny the role of miracles because Allah in His Wisdom did give miracles, in one form or another, to the prophets which helped them in carrying out their messages across. But at the same time we have to accept that a miracle has a limited scope of influence and vitality.
Firstly it appeals only to sentiments rather than the reason. Secondly only those persons are convinced by the miracles who actually see them. With the passage of time, people either start forgetting them or questioning their authenticity. Hence, reliance on miracles could not have been an appropriate course for the last of all religions to follow.
There was need for adopting a course that could ensure the acceptability of its message at all times to come. That could be possible only by appealing to the intellect, reason and conscience of the people instead of relying on miracles. Therefore, with the revelation of the Quran, the reliance shifted from sentimentalism and emotionalism to reasoning, reflecting, deducting and understanding. Out of the total of 6666 verses of the Quran about 756 verses emphasize reflecting, listening, pondering, knowing and understanding.
In the past, the word ``sign`` was used for a miracle. But in the Quran it is used for something definite and within the comprehension of every one. That is why with every reference to a sign there is due emphasis on reflecting and pondering over the sign referred to (30:22). Some of the signs referred to frequently in the Quran are the creation and existence of certain objects that one can see with the naked eyes like the sun, moon and various other celestial bodies (50:6).
Some are the orderly movements and functioning of such objects like the movement of various celestial bodies in their orbits (36:40) capable of being proved by unrefutable evidence. Some of the signs are the clear-cut and verifiable conclusions one can draw from certain creation and their functioning like the maintenance of balance and the resultant harmony one can note while reflecting over the existence of countless celestial bodies (55:7,8). Some are the provision of things in due measure necessary for sustaining life on earth (15:19), (30:40) so evident that they require no proof. And some are the events that have actually happened.
In short all the signs referred to in the Quran are such that their existence or happening cannot be denied. As the Quran says ``Say thou: This is my way: I do invite unto Allah on evidence clear as the seeing with one`s eyes`` (12:108).
Reflection over the signs, referred to in the Quran, has a twofold object. One is to strengthen faith in the existence and Unity of Allah and the other is to make use of such signs and the conclusions drawn there from for the benefit of mankind. For example, reflection over the degree of balance and harmony that exists in the creation tells us about two things. One is that such balance could not have been established and maintained without there being a single and highly skilled Creator and Designer.
According to Charles Townes, a noted physicist who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize in physics, ``recent discoveries in cosmology reveal a Universe that fits the religious views that some intelligence must have been involved in the laws of Universe.`` The other is that it is because of such balance and the resultant harmony that the system has survived for billions of years. Hence, the first thing one should learn could be to have faith in the existence and Unity of Allah. That`s why the Prophet said that ``contemplation over and study of Allah`s creation for a while is better than a year`s prayers.``
According to the renowned scientist Einstein, ``God reveals Himself in the harmony that exists in the creation.`` The second thing that one should learn could be that the secret of survival lies in harmony and that harmony can be possible only through the maintenance of balance. This provides an excellent example for the people to follow and emulate in their own spheres of activities. According to Martin Lings, ``harmony is the imprint of Oneness upon multiplicity, and the Quran draws attention to that harmony for man`s meditation.``
Thus, after the revelation of the Quran, there was no need for any miracle or any thing of that kind. In fact, the Quran itself could be the greatest of all miracles. According to Husayn Haykal, a renowned Egyptian scholar,`` history has not reported to us that any of those early companions had entered faith because of miracles witnessed. Rather it was the conclusive Divine argument conveyed through the revelation and the superlatively noble life of the Prophet that conduced those men to faith.`` The Prophet himself said that ``every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed him, but what I have been given is Divine inspiration and that which Allah revealed to me (the Quran).``
The Quran while enjoining belief in the unseen (2:3), also emphasises the need for pondering and reflecting over various facets of the creation so that any one having such faith can test its authenticity on the touchstone of reasoning and the conclusion drawn there from. It also goes to the credit of the Quran that it gives due importance to the acquisition of knowledge which, among other things, enhances the scope of the process of pondering and reasoning making it capable of being used for the benefit of mankind.
The importance that the Quran gives to the knowledge is manifest from its very first verses revealed to the Prophet which said ``read and thy Lord is the Most Gracious Who taught knowledge by pen: taught man that which he did not know`` (96:4,5). Soon after the revelation of these verses, another verse was revealed which again stressed the importance of knowledge but in a different way i.e. through the Divine oath by the pen and that which is written with it (68:1). Besides, the importance of knowledge is conveyed to us through a practical example, namely, the outcome of the test to which Adam and angels were put together.
There are also a number of sayings of the Prophet emphasising the need for the acquisition of knowledge so much so that he said that the ``Day of Judgment will be the Day on which the knowledge is lifted from the world`` (Bukhari). Another Quranic verse which says ``O Lord advance me in knowledge`` (20:114) conveys the message that there should be no end to the acquisition of knowledge. This was further clarified by the Prophet when he said ``go on acquiring knowledge from cradle to grave.``
It also goes to the credit of the Quran that the Muslim scientists and scholars, inspired by its teachings, played pivotal role in the acquisition and dissemination of different kinds of knowledge - a fact that has been acknowledged the world over. According to Robert Brifault ``the light from which civilization was once more kindled, did not arise from any embers of Graeco-Roman culture smouldering among the ruins of Europe, nor from the living death on the Bosphorous. It did not come from the northern but from the southern invaders of Europe, from the Saracens (Arabs).``
J.W. Draper in his book ``The history of the intellectual development of Europe`` observes that the Quran gave science to two continents, Asia and Europe. Will Durant in his book Civilisation Vol-II observes ``Islam led the world in power, order and extent of government, in refinement of manners, in standards of living, in human legislation and religious tolerance, scholarship, science, medicine and philosophy.``
The Cambridge history of Islam highlights the contribution of Islam thus ``Muslim civilisation acted as a teacher to medieval Europe in virtually all branches of knowledge including philosophy and medicine, mathematics, astronomy and astrology.`` That`s why the French biographer of the Prophet, Henry Comte de Boulainvillier, calls him (the Prophet) as the fore-runner of the age of reason and enlightenment.``
Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
An Air Commodore on a training mission on a F7??
or what? Something fishy about this story. What`s your thinking?
``Pakistan fighter plane crashes, pilot killed
ISLAMABAD, July 19 (Reuters) - A Pakistani pilot died when his fighter plane crashed near Kamra, 50 miles (80 km) west of the capital of Islamabad, a Pakistan Air Force spokesman said on Friday.
He said the F-7/P fighter plane crashed near Kamra air base during a routine flight.
``I can confirm that the plane has crashed and its pilot Air Commodore Hameed Qadri has been killed,`` the spokesman said, adding that the plane was on a routine training mission.``
Posted by
hobbyty
Jul 19, 2002 06:21 pm
RomairAn Air Commodore on a training mission on a F7??
or what? Something fishy about this story. What`s your thinking?
``Pakistan fighter plane crashes, pilot killed
ISLAMABAD, July 19 (Reuters) - A Pakistani pilot died when his fighter plane crashed near Kamra, 50 miles (80 km) west of the capital of Islamabad, a Pakistan Air Force spokesman said on Friday.
He said the F-7/P fighter plane crashed near Kamra air base during a routine flight.
``I can confirm that the plane has crashed and its pilot Air Commodore Hameed Qadri has been killed,`` the spokesman said, adding that the plane was on a routine training mission.``
- hobbyty
- Interacts: 1423
- iLogs: 0
- Gallery: 0
- Page views: 468
- Last visitor: guest
- Member since: Jan 11 2001
- Last signin: Dec 1 2008
- Send a message
- Add as friend
- Add to ignore list
- Add to block list
