Coney Al Jazeera Tahmed, Samina, Temporal

Indeed, some hold that more meals at the Y may be exactly what our emotionally and physically repressed and oppressed Pakistani society needs.

Samina

A woman had 2 female parrots and she loved the parrots but was perturbed by their behavior - she decided to talk to the local Maulvi and seek his advice. ``Maulvi Sahab, I have 2 female parrots and while I love them, I`m distured that all they say is : Hi, we`re prostitutes, you want to have some fun?``

Maulvi Sahab without the slightest hesitation says he has the solution: ``I have 2 male parrots and have taught them to recite prayers and also say prayers using the Tasbee, I`m sure if your 2 female parrots were to spend time with them, they would be reformed``

So the woman brings her 2 female parrots to the Maulvi and he puts them in the bird cage, with his 2 male parrots. No sooner than 2 female parrots are in the cage, they begin with their usual line, ``Hi we`re prostitues, you want to have some fun?``. Hearing the two female parrots, one of the male parrots begins to recite a prayer, the other male parrot turns to the parrot reciting the prayer and says: ``you can forget about that now, our prayers have been answered``

Temporal

Yes, please do a piece exploring our attitudes about sex and their connection to how the sexes relate or not, to each other in Pakistani society.

Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan Outstanding! Thank you, Mr. Zaidi - for long we have have felt our loss and have indulged ourselves in self pity and in the cult of victimization. Yes, we are have been and are no angels and we need not be depressed or be sorrowful - there is a way out, but it is not painless and it`s not without sacrifice; it begins with acknowledging the less than flattering truth about who and what we have been, what we are capable of being and to decide to take the course of our lives in our hands.

Is it an unfair criticism when we are reminded that universities were an idea born in Islam, yet what learning have we to show for it? Is it an unfair criticism to point out that as a group (diverse or not) Muslims remain by and large ignorant and unaware and uncivil? No, these criticisms are valid and are most necessary. Again, bravo, for this excellent peace; pathos without pity.

Shadowlines (Part I) ArjunM

``GASP!! casteism in the land of the pure!! surely you jest.``

Thank you! Sadly it`s no jest - more of the deconstruction, regression of society and morality - I`m quite surprized that more interlocutors have not commented on this outrage. Don`t stop and make it cut deep, to the bone - there has to be an awakening, an introspection, a reevaluation. For what it`s worth, your criticism has been apt but usually gets lost in the childish aspect of post - that does not mean that your criticism is not apt and NEEDED.

Coney Al Jazeera Saminashah

EXCELLENT! Please do some sort of piece exploring the connection between attitudes about sex and shame in the Pakistani society. We have become ill, quite literally, ill by the kind of repression and oppression that surrounds sex in Pakistani society.

In Defense of The Left Fawad

I agree with you that the attitudes that still prevail in Pakistani society about arts and culture are most certainly a cause for anguish and certainly condemnable. Authorities in Pakistan have consistently, in the hope of maintaining order (social cohesion) sided with the most ignorant, most absurd understanding of the role of Arts and Artists. I fear that in parts of Pakistan, having fun is ``unIslamic``, to laugh outright is ``unIslamic``, to read is suspicious - no, I don`t think I exaggerate.

What Pakistanis need is liberty, the freedom of conscience - unfortunately, this does not come easy and is not built overnight - on the other hand we have had 54 years, is this not enough? Who can deny that it is enough time. All these attitudes are part and parcel of the religiosity of emulation - the more Muslim (read ignorant)than you - this what we have been reduced to and our own fault.

Kashmir Fatigue

After the infamous and flawed data and conclusions of MORI poll, a section of opinion was confident that the ``need for a new political party`` to replace Hurriyet would be keenly felt by captive kashmiris, indeed the whole exercise of placing Indian armed forces at the borders of Pakistan and keeping them there till october is a vain and futile effort to deny Hurriyet by jailing it`s leaderof, of it`s legitimacy and create new facts, `fait accompli` on the ground - but alas for Hindu fundamentalist, captive Kashmiris will neither forgive nor forget, even if they have to cast a vote at gunpoint for the new Indian government in captive Kashmir: From Washington Post

``A New Dispute in Kashmir

Many Leery of India`s Plan for `Free and Fair` Legislative Election

By John Lancaster

Washington Post Foreign Service

Friday, June 28, 2002; Page A18

SRINAGAR, India -- A senior Indian official here delivered what he thought was a reassuring message on Kashmir`s future: Come state elections this fall, promised the chief election commissioner, J.M. Lyngdoh, Indian soldiers will no longer force people to go to polling places at gunpoint.

Such is the nature of democratic reform in Kashmir, where the Indian government has long been accused of rigging elections to thwart Kashmiri leaders who favor independence -- or unification with Pakistan -- for the disputed Himalayan region.

As international pressure rises for a resolution of the Kashmiri issue, which recently sparked fears of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, Indian officials have vowed to hold ``free and fair`` elections for an 87-seat legislative assembly that is seen by many Kashmiris as illegitimate and corrupt.

Indian officials say the contest will lay the groundwork for negotiations with separatist leaders and Pakistan, which has never recognized India`s absorption of the mostly Muslim state. They also say it will help end the civil conflict that has killed tens of thousands of people since 1989.

The only problem is that few people here seem to believe in elections, at least as defined by India.

``Elections don`t matter a lot,`` said Riyaz Baig, 34, from behind the counter of his small fabric shop, now starved for foreign tourists who once paid him hundreds of dollars for a scarf made of fine pashmina wool. ``We have to see to the root cause.``

In Baig`s view, and in the view of many other Kashmiris, India`s emphasis on holding elections is little more than a ploy. India, they say, is trying to distract attention from the need to begin serious discussions with Pakistan aimed at settling the status of Kashmir once and for all.

Many are loath to participate in a process that in their view helps legitimize Indian rule in Kashmir. They also recall their bitter experience in the most recent legislative elections, in 1996, when Indian soldiers sometimes inspected the forefingers of voting age men and women, especially in rural areas, to ensure they had been marked with indelible ink, indicating they had voted.

Such inspections were known as ``fingernail parades.`` Those who had failed to vote were ordered to do so, according to reports by human rights monitors and Kashmiri journalists.

Another obstacle is fear. Armed groups have called for a boycott of the elections, and one of them is thought to have engineered last month`s assassination of Abdul Ghani Lone, 70, a prominent moderate in the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, the main Kashmiri separatist political organization.

A day before he was gunned down at a political rally, Lone had said that participating in elections was not ``blasphemous,`` although he stopped short of saying he would run for office.

To help pave the way for elections, India has jailed several prominent critics of the idea, including Syed Ali Shah Geelani, 73, the leader of a hard-line Hurriyet wing, who is accused of accepting money from banned militant groups. Indian officials had hoped to persuade some moderate Hurriyet figures, including Lone, to field proxy candidates, but that possibility is fading in the aftermath of Lone`s killing.

``Here you see a confrontation between guns and politics,`` said Bashir Manzar, editor of Kashmir Images, one of five English-language newspapers in Srinagar. ``At this moment there is no space for politics. That is because people are under pressure. They can`t give voice to their feelings because they fear both sides.``

Manzar, whose editorials regularly castigate militants as well as security forces for their violent ways, knows whereof he speaks. Late last month, armed men entered the newspaper`s cramped downtown offices and shot a young reporter in what is presumed to have been a politically motivated attack. The reporter, Zafar Iqbal, is out of danger but still cannot speak because the bullet damaged his vocal cords, Manzar said.

Indian-sponsored elections have their supporters in Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian state that includes a significant Hindu minority population. The legislative assembly is dominated by a Muslim party, the National Conference, which favors autonomy for Kashmir but stops short of calling for separation from India.

National Conference Party leaders and some other politicians say they are encouraged by initial signs that the Pakistani president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, is living up to his pledge to cut off the flow of Islamic militants into Kashmir. They suggest that a drop in violence could create political breathing space.

Nazir Ahmad, the party`s general secretary, called on separatist leaders to put their names forward for the legislative assembly. ``They`re welcome,`` he said. ``We tell them, `You prove your representative character.` If people vote for them, let them come in the government.``

That is the argument of Indian officials in New Delhi, who describe the elections as a critical first step toward dialogue -- a term they prefer to negotiations -- with Pakistan and the Kashmiri separatist leaders.

``We can`t talk to the Hurriyet because they haven`t proved their representative character,`` said an official in India`s Interior Ministry. ``Now, whoever comes out of the election process, we will talk with them. That is why we had asked Hurriyet to participate in the elections.``

Mehbooba Mufti, 42, the daughter of a former Indian cabinet minister and a prominent Kashmiri Muslim politician, is among those who are considering the Indian government`s offer. She is openly sympathetic to ``the boys,`` as the militants are called here, but thinks ``a good election can be a starting point.``

Still, Mufti has not announced her candidacy for the assembly. Given the history of electoral politics in Kashmir, she said, she doubts that India and the National Conference are serious about their commitment to a clean contest.

``Elections have really added to the miseries of the people,`` she said. ``Let`s see if it`s free and fair.``

Special correspondent Rama Lakshmi contributed to this report.``

Dissing Ideologies Fawad

2 of my aunts are Iranian, as are 5 of my cousins,

and I lived im Iran for some time before the revolution. I can attest to the sentiment expressed by your guest; Arab vs Iranian, Sunni Vs Shia, Non-Islamic history and culture/traditions Vs Islamic - these kinds of complexes exist among a section of Iranian society, especially those who not only supported the regime of the Shah, but also those who were/are appalled by the excesses of the government of the Islamic Republic, in particular, the cultural de/reconstructions.

Where does this leave us? Exactly where we are, the sentiment of those who no longer feel a afinity are certainly a loss, but this is a small minority and the appropriate way to look at this, in my opinion, is as a contraction and expansion, like waves of the ocean as they crash and expand on land and recede. I am not aware of any society whose culture is not compilation and in most cases a reconciliation, even a adaptation, of the myriad of cultural and intellectual influences. Look at us, we are Pakistanis (a world of complexity and oppositions of experience in itself) we are also a particular ethnic group(in so far as we can maintain such a thing exist in our context) and language, not to mention a lovely and mind boggling mosaic of histories - And here we are discussing it all, in English.

So while it is a terrible loss to say that Islam is the religion of Arabs, it is also true for the individual who holds and expresses such a view. Can we remain oblivious to the effort of some to create out of Islam, a societal stasis that captures cultural traditions and knowledge, specific to many centuries past and to a specific geographical location? Had not Shah Valliollah Dehlvi, so long ago warned us of error?

As a blessing to humanity, God has sent us great scholars, who continue to warn and advise that the spirit of Islam in these matters is one of continueous, constant movement. If you should find the time, please reread ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought`` by Allahmah Mohammad Iqbal Lahori - you shall be literally, blown away - by the insight and the methodology of reconcilation. On these boards, as so few non-Indians and Pakistanis participate, we have only a limited criticism of the intellectual and cultural trends in Islam - but even here we must acknowledge that not all the criticism is without reason and is valid. But that is not the totality of the mercy and light that is Islam or the Muslim. Very many Muslims are confusing that which is permanent in Islam and that is is temporal - the reason such a sitaution exist is the banishment of Reason as the the companion of faith. So affraid are a section of the ulema that DOUBT may appear that they do not realize that DOUBT is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF FAITH. Again, like the love, like the waves of the ocean, Faith can grow and recede, but certitude will make no such allowance (and with shame it allows some to say they have lost their faith - when it was never faith, that they had. Faith by definition can not be lost, can a love ever be lost? even as we express its loss, we revel, even for a fleeting moment, in its propect and meaning). Even the expression of one Muslim of his or her separtion from their understanding of God and their relationship with Him, is a cause for tears in Heaven and Earth, this is my opinion, because the Muslim is a mercy to humanity, beyond ethncity, nationality, culture and history.

In Defense of The Left Romair

Re: ``secularatics, i.e. secular fanatics``

The current literature divides the understanding of ``secularism`` into ``Objective Secularism` which is the specialization or differentiation of the INSTITUTIONS of religion and governance and ``Subjective secularism`` which is the attempt to deny religion any space in CONSCIENCE and CULTURE, it is also rferred by sociologists as ``profanation``.

I think these secular fanatics you are referring to, are exactly those that fit into the definition of subjective secularism. I certainly agree with you that it was such an understanding of secularism that produced a Hitler, a Stalin, a Mao, indeed it is this conception of secularism that is responsible for the greatest institutionalized crimes against humanity - all to make of humanity the ``serf`` of man, as opposed to acknowledging that man does not live by bread alone, that can feels and has developed rational concepts to experiencel his connection to his Creator.

I cannot speak for Mr. Hamdani but in my interacts with him and in his post, he is specific, emphatic that he does not suscribe to notions of subjective secularism as an ideal or that Jinnah subscribed to such a defintion. Even though the defintion Mr.Hamdani has provided is archaic, broad and unfortunately entirely derived from a secular humanist point of view. It goes without saying, the evidence is most compelling that secular humanism is the hand maiden of tryanny and an agent of subjective secularism.

How can any state that seeks to interfere with, regulate and usurp to itself the direction and content of religious institutions, be called secular in it`s original sense of the specialization of institutions of religion and governance? Institutions of religion ought to be embedded in conscience and culture of society and any form of government that seeks to deprive the institutions of religion this rightful role, is soon, itself seperated from the conscience and culture of the society, it is meant to govern.

In Defense of The Left Romair

Re: ``secularatics, i.e. secular fanatics``

The current literature divides the understanding of ``secularism`` into ``Objective Secularism` which is the specialization or differentiation of the INSTITUTIONS of religion and governance and ``Subjective secularism`` which is the attempt to deny religion any space in CONSCIENCE and CULTURE, it is also rferred by sociologists as ``profanation``.

I think these secular fanatics you are referring to, are exactly those that fit into the definition of subjective secularism. I certainly agree with you that it was such an understanding of secularism that produced a Hitler, a Stalin, a Mao, indeed it is this conception of secularism that is responsible for the greatest institutionalized crimes against humanity - all to make of humanity the ``serf`` of man, as opposed to acknowledging that man does not live by bread alone, that can feels and has developed rational concepts to experiencel his connection to his Creator.

I cannot speak for Mr. Hamdani but in my interacts with him and in his post, he is specific, emphatic that he does not suscribe to notions of subjective secularism as an ideal or that Jinnah subscribed to such a defintion. Even though the defintion Mr.Hamdani has provided is archaic, broad and unfortunately entirely derived from a secular humanist point of view. It goes without saying, the evidence is most compelling that secular humanism is the hand maiden of tryanny and an agent of subjective secularism.

How can any state that seeks to interfere with, regulate and usurp to itself the direction and content of religious institutions, be called secular in it`s original sense of the specialization of institutions of religion and governance? Institutions of religion ought to be embedded in conscience and culture of society and any form of government that seeks to deprive the institutions of religion this rightful role, is soon, itself seperated from the conscience and culture of the society, it is meant to govern.

In Defense of The Left YLH, Fawad, Romair, Urstruly, Tahmed, DRUMZ

As a point of interest, in this dialogue about how to comprehend method and the rational basis of comprehension of religion and civil institutions and in hope that these will bring you JOY and NOURISHMENT, and INSIGHT to the connections between Liberty, Reason and the comprehension of principles of Religion, I have reproduced for you sections of the first two pages of ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought`` by Allahmah, Mohammad Iqbal Lahori - perhaps the greatest and unfortunately for us Pakistanis, least appreciated of all scholars of Islam - Note what he foresaw so long ago, about the cultural evolution of the comprehension of Islam: (CAPS are mine for emphasis)

quote

Religion in its more advanced forms, rises higher than poetry. It moves from individual to society. In its attitude toward ultimate Reality it is opposed to the limitations of man; it enlarges his claims and hold out the prospect of nothing less than direct vision of Reality. Is it then possible to apply the purely rational method of philosophy to Religion? The spirit of philosophy is one of FREE INQUIRY. It suspects all authority. Its function is to trace the uncritical assumptions of human thought to their hiding place, and in this pursuit it may finally end in denial or a frank admission of the incapacity of pure reason to reach ultimate Reality. The essence of religion, on the other hand, is FAITH; and faith, like the bird, sees its “trackless way” unattended by intellect which in the words of the great mystic poet of Islam “only waylays the living heart of man and robs it of the invisible wealth of life that lies within”. Yet it CANNOT BE DENIED THAT FAITH IS MORE THAN FEELING. It has something like a COGNITIVE content, and the existence of rival parties-scholastics and mystics- in the history of religion shows that idea is a vital element in religion.

Apart from this, Religion on its doctrinal side, as defined by Professor Whitehead, is a “system of general truths, which have the effect of transforming character when they are sincerely held and vividly apprehended”. Now, since the transformation and guidance of man’s inner and outer life is the essential aim of religion, it is obvious that the general truths which it embodies must not remain unsettled. No one would hazard action based on the basis of a doubtful principle of conduct. INDEED, IN VIEW OF ITS FUNCTION, RELIGION STANDS IN GREATER NEED OF A RATIONAL FOUNDATION OF ITS ULTIMATE PRINCIPLES THAN EVEN THE DOGMAS OF SCIENCE. Science may ignore a rational metaphysics; indeed, it has ignored it so far. Religion can hardly afford to ignore the search for a RECONCILIAION of the oppositions of experience and a justification of the environment in which humanity finds itself. That is why Professor Whitehead has acutely remarked that “ THE AGES OF FAITH ARE THE AGES OF RATIONALISM.” But to rationalize faith is not to admit the superiority of philosophy over religion. Philosophy, no doubt, has jurisdiction to judge religion, but what is to be judged is of such a nature that it will not submit to the jurisdiction of philosophy except on its own terms. While sitting in judgement on religion, philosophy cannot give religion an inferior place in its data. Religion is not a departmental affair; it is neither mere thought, nor mere feeling, nor mere action; it the expression of the whole man. Thus, in the evaluation of religion, philosophy must recognize the central position of religion and has no other alternative but to admit it as something focal in the process of reflective synthesis. Nor is there any reason to suppose that thought and intuition are essentially opposed to each other. They spring up from the same root and complement each other. The one grasps reality piecemeal, and the other grasps it in its wholeness. The one fixes it gaze on the eternal, the other on the temporal aspect of Reality. The one is present enjoyment of the whole of Reality; the other aims at traversing the whole by slowly specifying and closing up the various regions of the whole for exclusive observation. Both are in need of each other for mutual REJUVENATION. Both seek visions of the same reality which reveals itself to them in accordance with their function in life. In fact, intuition, as Bergson rightly says, is only a higher kind of intellect.

The search for rational foundations in Islam may be regarded as have begun with the holy prophet…"

Note as he sets the stage for his thesis, the RATIONAL foudations for the comprehension of religion, note the tremendous blow he delivers to these absurd obscuritanists, to the very foundation of their irrational claims - All this in the first two pages.

In Defense of The Left YLH

That was an engaging post, whats your thinking about how objective secularism can be imbedded as an idea or value? What is your opinion of the ideas below?

Objective secularism (the specialization of the institutions of Religion and Governance) is a given - the problem which are represented by the cases you mention, is one of a priori propositions. That is to say which are the ideas on which the problems you mentioned are predicated. For instance, the Riba case, what are the a priori ideas behind the interest free banking? Are they not that an ``ideal`` or ``God ordained`` system of banking not only exist but can and must be implemented - God is into banking? this is not very much like the proposition of the historicist fundamentalist who argue that the establishment of Israel is the actualization of prohesy and that to assist Israel is a religious obligation, to enable the ``Rapture`` and the return of the Christ and the end of the world?

Objective secularism is a given, but unfortunately it cannot be comprehended in it`s original form, because the a priori propositions, the ideas on which it is based is not appreciated.

The core idea of objective secularism, the a priori proposition is the idea of liberty. Internal liberty: the freedom of conscience cannot but reflect itself in the institutions and atmosphere of society, that is to say, External Liberty.

Liberty as an idea or value cannot exist without the idea or value that is Reason. In understanding the play of competing ideas, represented by the problems you mentioned, what is clear is that neither Liberty nor Reason are a value in Pakistani society and it is for this reason that so many in Pakistan find themselves seduced by the emotional, historicist appeal of the obscuritanist. You will note a similar absence of Liberty and Reason in the position of the historiist fundamentalist with regard to Israel and the enabling of the second Coming.

For Objective secularism to prevail, Pakistani society has to become one in which ``Science``, which is itself a refelection of the ideas of Liberty and Reason, is imparted to increasing numbers of persons. Within the imparting of science in society, of defining and describing and demarcating natural, physical, metaphysical and science, is the idea of ``Method`` - and method changes how we think and articulate or justify. Method also entails changes in the priotization of values - once this reordering of values takes effect, it begins to transform society.

But caution: With the good, we must accept the bad. With the transition from traditional to post traditional, we must be clear headed that while we will solve some problems, we will also have accept new problems.

Coney Al Jazeera Dear Mr. Ansari:

What were the ideas that made coney/Al Jazeera viable? attractive? - what did it mean to that America of the 20th century? What did it say about them and their place in the sun?

And what are the ideas that are marking this century in America? Globalization? precisely what does that mean? The ``sole superpower`` is so incredibly wealthy, so incredibly ``advanced`` as compared to any other country or grouping of countries, that perhaps we need to understand the concept of country, in some new light - yet, I think a case can be made for ``fatigue`` and ``foreboding``, for ``fear and trembling`` both within and outside the US, of the US. Coney/Al Jazeera is in crisis, unsure of itself and the responsibility it has chosen to assume, ``being`` the ``hand of God`` is not an idea entirely uncompatible with the evolving American genius and if one measure of confidence is the behaviour of capital - it seems a good many people around the world are uneasy about the ideas that are playing out in the American discourse about it`s place in or without the sun.

Nameless

Occupation of Pakistan? that`s hardly reasonable. The situation of Pakistan with regard to Cooper`s piece, is all the doing of the leadership or rather lack of it, from the early 80`s. No leadership from the 80`s onward has articulated, built any kind of consensus, of any kind of long term vision of Pakistan - with the exception of the Obscuritanist. Consider, what, which ideas (excluding the obscuritanists) are prevalent in Pakistan? Democracy? and what ideas are it`s foundation in Pakistan, other than which PERSON can get the most of the public resources for him or herself or their sponsors?

Ubaidullah would have done a service to Pakistanis to tell them the truth about their predicament: it`s sink or swim time, NOT Whining time - we did it to ourselves, if there is double standard or if the domestic politics of the post modern states will have a direct bearing on the direction of Modern states - aren`t the modern states equally, if not more culpable in this calamity - by their unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves? So today they find that their begging bowl will be filled with just enough to keep them begging and they will have pay dearly for keeping their begging bowl. So, you want to play but not pay? What kind of idea is that? What kind of value is that?

How to get out of this new colonialism? Obscuritanists have an answer, they have ideas and they continue to work ceaselessly to create an awareness among their sheep; emotion, historicism, ideology are their tools - what ideas do any of the rest have? Who speaks for Reason, Who speaks of Liberty? SecularISM, is the idea they have against the Obscuritanist - it`s mother`s milk to the Obscuritanist, afterall don`t Obscruitantist operate in the US? What is the core idea or value or conception that will enable the defeat of Obscuriutanist ``ideas`` or ``values``?? The antiObscuritanist idea is the ``scientification`` of society - that is, the ideas at the heart of science: Reason and Liberty - these ideas are also the fuel that the engine of prosperity uses and which capital cannot resist. No escape, no quick fix - sink or swim - destiny? wrong! Transition is a choice.

IDEAS - WHAT IS ANY SOCIETY IF NOT THE ACTUALIZATION OF IDEAS?

Dissing Ideologies Zafar Al-Talib, Akash, Dost Mittar

Sorry for late response - took a few days off, sun and swimming.

Should Pak army pull out of Azad Kashmir based on Roohi`s post? - No, Obscuritanists, sectarian outfits have in some instances done the same thing in Azad kashmir, that they have done in the rest of Pakistan; that is to say they seem to think that only they know Islam, yet this is not the same as a armed freedom struggle of 12 years, is it? Does it in your view, spring from the same dynamic, reasons, as that in captive Kashmir? If a mass political consciousness grows in Azad Kashmir that wants to have nothing more to do with Pakistan, will the Armed forces of Pakistan have any choice but to leave?

I note a tendency in your thinking to reach for equating things that are not similar (a theft of plates from a treasury and the theft of a bicycle from someone`s home, are both theft, yet they are very different - different for whom? for the victims of theft, for the thieves and for those of us who to evaluate these events) - I urge you to think about it - yes, I agree using such a technique as equating dissimilar circumstances takes arguments on a tangents - yet if that is what you intend, sure, I will accept it - but consider: We may actually learn something about our positions if instead of reaching for these absurd equations, we were to try to see if we are describing a situation in it`s fullness, are the tools we are using to describe and proscribe, rooted in reason, are we using emotion unduly as a crutch, are we making the error of confusing ideology with reason? should we not examine indivdual situations more deeply, more satisfactorily, before we begin to consider if our analysis will allow us to make statements about similarities and differences?

I`m not suggesting that we not defend our positions, but that we, at least, be interested in moving closer to understanding the ``truth(s)`` about situations and merely to obscure. I assure you that while I will defend the positions I`m taking, I remain open to looking at situations through the prisms mentioned above to enlarge and focus my own understanding - I look to you to offer me a larger, more complex, more detailed, view of not just any situtation but also an understanding of method - Why? because all this interaction must mean, (at least to me, and I am sure just about every one on Chowk) some gain in understanding, other than that of interacting with people with diverse peoples.

Akash

Run for office? I don`t really see that as a solution - I think if I understand, and influence others, to understand and see that ideas such as Reason and liberty - are missing from intellectual life of Pakistan and that this is not only a malady for the political economy, injustice, and an affront to our conscience and confessions, but also a threat to our future and to any that we as a nation have relations with. Now, as for the ``polite`` bit - it strikes me that the attitude of some is that someone who disagree with them is, that they are ``too abrasive``, ``too polite`` and if they should agree positions, a grudging, ``just right`` - neither of these is satisfactory - disagreeing, if we have justified our positions, is no big deal, what`s important, in my opinion, is whether we have learnt something, whether we have moved forward or even ``if`` we can move or further our understanding. Actually I think our problem on these boards is justifying our positions - perhaps you have some thoughts on this?

Dost Mittar

You must accept responsibility for your comprehension - you are welcome to take from the post in question the understanding you want.

Dissing Ideologies

Tahmed

You agree that different persons interpret Quran differently and the knowledge of the times effects it`s interpretation - don`t you

But now you say the same rational does not apply when we discuss poverty and ignorance?

You have now cited World bank figures as a bench mark or index or definition - yet even here, we will be left with the same problem - ignorant relative to what? Is there a standard of ignorance? poor by whose standard,? world banks? in what sense? Homes, educations, roads, sewage systems? per capita income? not purchaing power parity? Would you agree interpretations of each of these may differ? In order to arrive at a semblence of sense, it seems to me that we must avoid making the criteria of the verifiablity of these propositions, personal.

I agree with you that economic ``progress`` is a must and it anger me as well that our per capita income does not match our expectations. I also agree with you that we should not pursue emnity with India - where I disagree is, to my way of thinking captive Kashmir must have liberty first,because they demand it, as a prerequiste for economic growth, to foster the hope that we will reduce poverty and ignorance to such levels that they do not daily assault and insult our sense of our humanity. Recall whether you were an Indian and are now a Pakistani, either way, what was the reason you wanted liberty? what was the reason for a ``quit India``?

As far as emnity with the Indian, to my way of thinking we ought not pursue it as a matter of policy - we ought not seek to be anybody`s enemy AND that`s not the same as being anybody`s door mat. Our objectives with regard to the Indian ought to be ethical, moral, and rooted in the possible and always be directed at bringing advantage to us.

Dissing Ideologies Akash

Tripe! The fact that I am willing to be critical of positions I do not find worthy does not make me ``cunning`` - just as your ability to articulate your fear does not make you reasonable.

I`m puzzled, if I do harbour a hatred (something I cannot imagine you being able to aprreciate) of outrageous proportions against Hindus - why do I need to conceal it? Which Hindu or Indian is controlling my bread and water?

As far as the Jews and Hindu stuff - another reminder, as some never tire of reminding us, Hindu and Jew is nothing alien to us, it`s part of our heritage.

Relax a little, try and make sense, mo point in being paranoid - take it easy.

Dissing Ideologies Fawad79, Tahmed

EXCELLENT! We must continue to clear headedly hold out hope and educate persons who find it difficult to think rationally, in this melieu of fear, confusion and hate.

Normative, as in norm - the attitude displayed in the article you posted is now normative - No Osama could have achieved the victory that bigotry and intellectual lazyness of societies that lecture the ``uncivilized`` about values, have handed to terrorists. So potent and so irrational are these attitudes, that in actualizing these bigoted attitudes in so called ``civilized`` societies, it is the not just those civilized societies that have placed themselves in risk, but the ideals that allow them to claim ``civilized`` are themselves in danger of being eclipsed.

A prevailing line of thinking in India (prevailing in the sense that BJP, VHP and that assortment of murderous bigots forward this view and prevailing in that they have succeeded in persuading, otherwise reasonable persons of the validity of their assertion: witness the systematic attack on the intellectual foundations and symbol of Islam and intellectual foundations and institutions of the Indian state) is that Muslims of India must ``redeem the past`` - All present day Muslims are responsible for the actions of Aurangzeb against Hindus.

In these criticisms of Islam and Muslims, we can discern a philosophy of history, that argues Islam and by extension Muslims, as doctrine, is justifiable only by offering negative evidence. But this is relatively easy to evaluate and characterize as meaningless; after all, shall we not arrive at the exact opposite by offering evidence of a positive nature? Either way, such a tool is most unsatisfactory.

Yet the bigotry and intellectual lazyness detailed in your post, should also serve to remind us that Obscuritanists version of the justifiablity of religious doctrine in relation to to Islam as doctrine is similar. By claiming unverfiablity, they reject any notion that such propositions can be justfiable. All will have to wait till judgemnt day, as if judgement day itself is subject to verifiablity and justification.

Tahmed

I have been thinking about a part your post - where you wanted to imagine what it would be like if, X, if Y, If Z had happened instead of what did happen and I want to understand why you, given the prevailing ideas, doctrines, of the time, (which prevail even today) things could be fundamentally or even significantly different?