Cry, the Beloved Country Dukhi Ram

How can anyone say that the nomads who targeted India were not barbaric, when there are historical records on the number of infidels killed and the number of slaves distributed. You must sound like the Brits who mentioned of ``white man`s burden``.

What about the gypises and Scinti of Europe surely they are not remnants of any invading army. Th vast majority of them were either ejected from their homelands by benevolent invaders or better still sold in chains by more commercially minded invaders.

Targeted eradication of local populace and their beliefs were the prime reason for invasions according to some. If people were so keen on making this their home why did the modern day heirs of Moguls have to vacate the land and find another homeland. It is always easy to blame a passive community because of its overwhelming numbers.

If natives had an organised religion and resorted to the tactics of their conquerors the Moguls would never have set shop and that would have made a big difference.

Instead we have been snared into a ``MY god is better than yours``, ``MY language is better`` attitude which is wreaking havoc .

Muslims especially of the North must wake up to realities such as the fact that they need to integrate with the mainstream.

If I were to say this ensure that differences are not evident or cannot be perceived.

Further popular Hinduism is not a religion that believes in evangelisation. Nobody cares less Abdul Hakim became Shyam Sunder or not.

My personal experience tells me that many Muslims go out of their way to emphasize their differences with their non-Muslim neighbours. On the other hand I have seen Hindu owned establishments even sport images of Kaaba as well as Christ to accommodate other interests.

Time is running out and with it the possibility of rapproachment - with the affirmative action, power is passing to the hands of sections which are probably more boisterous and less amenable to civilities.

The Mahatma’s Progeny Progresssive

I fully understand where you come from. Let me ask you a few. Where do you think TN stands after 30 years of unremitting rule by Dravidian parties, compare it with MH,AP etc.

If Periayar and Anna were for rationalism why is it that middle castes in TN always have to browbeat the lower castes ( Dalits), the Brahmins do not have the numbers to carry out such measures. Why is it that Dravidianism has not encompassed politics , instead every ethnic group barring Brahmins have a political party to represent their interests.

Kerala for example did not have any of Periayar or Anna`s political bravado , it is way ahead in social emancipation - nobody dares serve Dalits tea in separate cups as the middle castes in TN do. There are no inter-caste clashes here as there are in TN.

Malayalees do not idolise cinema icons. For all the self-respect that Periayar wanted to inculcate all of Tamil cinema`s leading lights barring Sivaji Ganesan have been cinema icons and that too from other states of India.

The middle castes in TN as elsewhere in India are wresting control from the Brahmin castes in a political and economical sense but as they achieve their purpose they are consumed by the same fears that upset the Brahmin castes , in the end the middle castes ``Brahmanise`` and do unto others what they believe the Brahmans did to them.

If Periyar`s concept was carried through TN could have been a role model ins social reforms , but alas social reform does not go the entire distance, the middle castes exact their price and scuttle the process.

DO not reduce the Dravidian movement ot just anti-Brahminism , the leaders had social reform in mind .

The Mahatma’s Progeny Progressive

The following is from a ``Dalit`` website please read on

Dalits and land issues

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ON December 25, 1927, Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar led a historic mahasatyagraha to defy a ban imposed by caste Hindus on Dalits drawing water from public sources. More than 10,000 Dalits participated in it.

Exactly 41 years later, on Christmas Day in 1968, 44 Dalits were burnt to death by upper-caste landlords in Kilavenmani village in the then undivided Thanjavur district for demanding higher wages under the leadership of the Communist Party of India (Marxist).

Three decades later, as the events of the last few years, especially in southern Tamil Nadu, have demonstrated, Dalits continue to be victims of caste (and class) violence. That this is the situation in a State where `Periyar` E.V. Ramasamy led a revolutionary social reform movement against caste oppression is a tragic irony. It demonstrates that caste oppression has tenacious roots and a material basis. Unsurprisingly, the Communist parties have played a major role in fighting caste and class oppression against Dalits; they have posited the Dalit struggle on class issues and a materialist understanding.

The social reform movement led by Periyar and the Left-led struggles against class and caste oppression have contributed to a democratic upsurge among Dalits; they have also led to a measure of economic and social advance among Dalits, through policies of caste-based reservation and other developments.

However, certain fundamental structural features serve to perpetuate a system of social and economic inequality against Dalits in Tamil Nadu, as in most other States. The most important of these is Dalits` relationship to land and other productive assets. Two-thirds of the State`s population lives in rural areas, and the proportion is marginally higher among Dalits. An overwhelming proportion of Dalits in the rural workforce are agricultural labourers with little or no access to land.

A recent study of Tamil Nadu`s economy by Professor K. Nagaraj of the Madras Institute of Development Studies (MIDS) notes: ``... while there has been a substantial transfer of land ownership from the upper castes to the middle and lower castes, access to land remains very low for the Scheduled Castes. This is particularly true for landholdings in higher size classes, and for holdings with better quality irrigation like well irrigation.``

Professor Thangaraj, also of the MIDS, notes that data from the Population Census of 1991 and the Agricultural Census of 1990-91 show that while Dalits accounted for 19.18 per cent of the State`s population, their share of area operated was only 7.1 per cent. In a Tamil booklet, ``Thamizh Nattil Nilamum Sathiyum`` (Land and Caste in Tamil Nadu, LRSA Publication, Chengalpattu, 1998), Dr. Thangaraj argues that not only have Dalits not benefited significantly from land reforms (in fact, ``land reforms`` in Tamil Nadu, as in practically all States except Kerala, West Bengal and Tripura, have led to little redistribution of land from large landlords to the landless), but even the lands assigned to them during colonial rule (the so-called depressed class land or panchami land) have been partially appropriated by non-Dalits.

The Government of Tamil Nadu announced that 1999 would be observed as the year of eradication of untouchability. Yet, efforts to mobilise opinion against the practice of untouchability in its several manifestations received little support from local administrators and officials. A case in point was the official response to the findings of the All India Democratic Women`s Association (AIDWA) in Dindigul and Pudukkottai districts. A survey by the AIDWA in Oddanchatram taluk of Dindigul district showed that tea was served in a separate glass for Dalits in 25 of 30 villages visited. The survey also brought out evidence of caste Hindu hairdressers refusing their services to Dalit customers. Yet it has not been easy to get officials at local and district levels to take action to end such practices.

In Pudukkottai, a conference of Dalit women organised by the AIDWA in April 1998 listed numerous instances of the practice of untouchability and other forms of discrimination against Dalits in the district and brought it to the attention of the district administration. Yet in May 1999, the District Collector denied the well-substantiated claims of the AIDWA.

Clearly, there is a need to raise the level of awareness about the social oppression of Dalits. It is important to secure the widest possible consensus, cutting across the political spectrum, to ensure the success of a campaign of social mobilisation against untouchability. Alongside these steps, a thoroughgoing land reform programme is necessary to ensure the elimination of caste oppression in the long run.

* * * * * * *

It is fifty years since affirmative action was established and many middle castes have managed to swindle what is owed to Dalits.

The Mahatma’s Progeny AAMir

While I do not agree with your comments to Harimau ,

there is one very egregious fact and that is that 3 million Armenians were killed by Kurdish instigated and abetted by Turks. You wanted to call that Turkish-Armenian war , this must be a jihadi definition of war.

Cry, the Beloved Country Dukhi Ram

In a very broad sense , I think the ones who want to build the temple are really asserting their sense of outrage at being raped , denied their civilisation and being thrust with a language and culture that was not theirs for ages. It is alright for Arabs to talk of taking back Andalus by force because the Moors ruled them once.

Frankly if you look at the centuries of Mogul suzerainty and compare it with the 3 centuries of British rule, India was given all that matters in today`s world by the British - talk of railways that connect the length and breadth of the nation, the language to a higher education or institutions where none existed.

It is easy to be ``romantic`` and claim that Moguls ushered in a golden era , far from it , the vast majority of Indians did not participate in it, only ``traitors` who chose to shift allegiances ever enjoyed. The problem in northern parts as well as the split of the country on account of religion is an aftermath of the foundations laid down by Moguls. A language , a religion or a cuisine do not qualify for a muster as long as people feel alienated.

Some historians even argue that Moguls were not keen on islamising India because they wanted India to be a land of ``infidel`` Indians whom they could lord over, if it had been islamised they would have had to shared power and spoils with the natives.

The Mahatma’s Progeny Progressive

We are talking about India and Bharat , Bharat is growing in numbers and India is progressing economically. We could have blamed foreign rulers till fifty years back , not anymore.

The Mahatma’s Progeny YLH , so you are taking your customary break from your reverie , and you have something to say.

Cry, the Beloved Country Aicha from Morocco

If his action was meant to spark anything it has not happened. If he wanted to engage the Govt. in anything more meaningful he should have stayed.

India has had its share of few good apples and plenty of rotten ones, so one tends to be cynical. May be Harsh`s liveral arts background leaves him with no options other than pen a poem and back off from any sort of serious engagement.

The Mahatma’s Progeny sarwari

Good for you. We do not grudge you your Pakistan.

Now lay off and get your house in order before preaching to others .

The Mahatma’s Progeny Progressive

It was a though provoking post, though it tended to take a very extreme evangelical view of India. I would love to see the same gents do tthe same trip to India and write about it.

Christianity in Kerala is ancient , but overall the culture of Kerala is not exactly the same as the culture in say UP,MP or Bihar in fact the western states in that sense differ from the eastern states of India. It is wrong for one religion to arrogate all the credit , we have to remember that it was Kerala that saw Hindu social reformers before 1930s and no doubt paved the way for the deveopment of a more egalitarian society . In fact it was carried to such an extent that Socialism Russian style as well as Chinese style have managed to gain incorrigible holds on sections of the population.

Cry, the Beloved Country I am a little perplexed with the Harsh Mander types. They claim they did not like what they saw or what they heard about.

Running away from the problem then does not help does it.

Harsh must be onto bigger things such as a nice posting on a permanent basis with some NGO with a base in NY which takes him to third world villages every third month on jets and chaffur driven cars.

God help us from pompous self-righteous people.

The Mahatma’s Progeny sigalph

The numeration of Dutch in America is dubious because many Palatinate Germans were called Dutch ( Deutsch) , Anglos really did not care , and some of them were Catholic. The Huegenots from France were the other Protestants who came to America via Holland. Practicing or not , a mention of RCs w/o the Irish is just not done.

The Mahatma’s Progeny Anyone for some gossip. A believer by the name Khader Basha Chennur , who happens to be from the district of Cuddapah in AP, has managed to extend to the Arab nations the courtesy that loafers of his ilk have done in India ( and maybe Pak and Bdesh). He was the chaffuer to some rich Sheik of Kuwait, Mr. Basha managed to seduce the daughter a damsel who goes by the fantastic name Falag Al-Azmi. She even claims that she is carrying his child.

Now these starstruck lovers eloped to Madras, she on a forged passport. The police held her, but the TN CM intervened and had them married.

Now I hate to imagine the consequences if it was a Hindu guy with a Muslim bride.

I also wonder if a CM of any state would have been so supportive.

To Farzana Versey, bless your stars you are in India, one of your brothers managed to get a bride thanks to secular Indian politicians.

The Mahatma’s Progeny YLH you mouth on somebody`s ignorance but you ended up parading your lack of knowledge in the process.

The Catholic church came to America for the most part with the Irish and many of the bishops , mosignors etc are still Irish ( atleast their names are Irish). Secondly many of the Germans and Dutch who cam to the new world were Catholic in persuasion. The Italians came in numbers only after substantial numbers of Irish and German people had made North America their home.

I only hope your knowledge of the Catholics is gleaned from the aweinspring and informative textbooks purveyed by the ``pure `` for the ``pure``.

YLH do you have dreams , where the Lord has commanded you to spout nonsense. You are the maan. The main maan then.

The Mahatma’s Progeny YLH You love to hate. It will be not worth any political science professor`s salt if he / she did not know of the ``wine drinking ``, ``pork eating`` ouch .. liberator of the ``pure people``.

Secondly I do know about certain Arabs from centuries ago , yessir I do Know him. But that does not mean I approve of the general philosophy propounded by him.

YLH might say billions do it anyway. Millions smoke pot or worse, does it make it very healthy for the general populace to accept that as a healthy practice.

YLH must probably hold a candle for all his coreligionists being killed in his land in the name of the ``true religion``.

The Mahatma’s Progeny It has been a while since I have turned to the cacophony and the ``phony`` intellectuals here.

Miss Versey ( or is it more like Warsi) , India has a future as long as it is prepared to evolve. The Muslims are a part of that country as long as they can learn to evolve .Short of rhetoric what have the so called Muslim intelligentsia and some of their instigators from across the border done in all sincerity to improve the lives of the ordinary ``low caste`` Muslims that were left behind in India. You have satisfied your whims and fantasies with the ``land of the pure``, do not point your nauseating fingers at something that could have been avoided.

Let India decide what it wants to be , armchair theorists and their backers from across the ``divide of purity`` have no business casting stones when their ``magnificient`` glass house needs serious repair.

And what is this with some modern day missionary peddling snake oil.

An improved new version that was peddled from about 12- 13 centuries back has already set people against each others throats. AN talk about self-righteous hounds who have no qualms killing people having the pattern of hair of their chins.

To denizens or ``virtual`` denizens of the ``abode of the pure`` lay off , because if you had a conscience you would not open your mouths.