The Virgin Bride I don`t know how religious I was before I started reading Chowk, but the more I read from my `enlightened`, `progressive` friends, the more sick i feel in my gut...call it instincts. All of a sudden, I need Allah and His wisdom because I`d be lost if I trusted much of the advice here!

In my mind, i see a sour grapes mentality. Deep down, I know that in an ideal world, I would want a life that`s different than what most people seem to be living here, and pragmatism says give up and join the melee (a self-defacing compromise?!).

But my instincts insist on seeking a higher plane of meaning...where a kiss is not just a kiss, but a window. It`s the same motivation that`s helped me excel in school etc, so if that pure motivation hasn`t failed me there, then it shouldn`t in other aspects of life.

People live their whole lives surrounded by friends and family and possessions, but if they don`t possess themselves fully, they will always feel truly alone. Worse yet, they may not even realize it.

When I think about it abstractly, Heaven is not so much a place, but that which is not Hell (marlowe)...and while many would settle for this existence in happiness, it`s only because they can`t `see` Heaven...

In that same sense, to me, True Love is not that which has been presented here, by Neptune or the `happy woman who married Adil`. But that`s their lives (this is not meant as a personal attack), and i`m assuming they are satisfied. Why settle for anything less? I`m worth it. I`m just saying that I know that I wouldn`t be satisfied, deep down, and i wonder if I`m alone on this, or if others agree...

The Virgin Bride It`s such a shame that guys and girls like this exist...they short-change themselves in the long-term, for the short-term.

SEX: It`s more than the STD`s, unwanted pregnancies...it`s the spiritual quality that self-discipline provides. It`s an investment in oneself, made for another person too.

As muslims lose that which makes them unique (their spiritual discipline) in an attempt to become more like everyone else (American?) they are doing something very ``un-American``--they are no longer unique. riff raff like everyone else. American Pie. i couldn`t be bothered.

Unfortunately, where does that leave a person like me? I`m ``scared`` to chose a muslim wife, because i`d be crushed to find out she was unfaithful although I was. And here I was saving myself for a muslimah, when there are many non-Muslims with more discipline/ religiousity/ commonsense who I`ve bypassed! In that sense, the latter are far more ``muslim``...

I`m not really shocked though...Allah rewards everyone fairly in the end. But I can see the tragedy unfolding..

Soulmate? An interesting article, because it definitely runs through a person`s mind, boy or girl...

they say that Marriage is half your deen, and i think so because it teaches you all the qualities that are needed to be a good person (patience, selflessness etc).

Regarding the religiousity of some Muslims, i think that it is easier to meet non-Muslims in daily interaction in American society, and they tend to be more open in general (too open; judging from sitcoms, nothing is taboo anymore). You can get a quick vibe more readily since not much is held back. And sometimes they are drawn to you too because of your eccentric/cultural ways (which you explain, and they sometimes think are cute). And if there are characteristics you are looking for but can`t tell in a person, then it makes things harder...eg, if you are the sporty type, it`s much harder to find a `sporty` Muslim wife without having to sink to the Mia Hamm sports bra level...

i`m glad the writer is happy (and has given all of us a heads up, no matter what we choose), but i don`t think i could do what he did. Fundamentally, I`d need to marry a muslim (and not just any muslim, but a muslim who sees eye to eye with me), and then there`s the cultural stuff too, if possible. But when you`re feeling depressed and want to share that with someone intimate, and say, you read the Quran and there`s a passage on jonah trapped in the whale that resonates with you but she/he doesn`t understand it because they don`t understand exactly where you come from (like your brother/sisters might understand), and you try to explain it again without losing patience (you`re upset already, remember), then something is lost in translation...there`s something to having immediate understanding, just by a word or a glance...that`s love. It`s a tough call...

Non-muslims make great life-long friends, but a wife/husband is a friend who is like you...it`s about vulnerability and being able to trust someone to handle that shame/vulnerability without violation...and if your guard is up for whatever reason, then you`ll never get a chance to truly understand the deepest love.

sometimes the people who are attracted to good Muslims are the ones who are tired of playing the field, and realize that the muslim guy/girl had it right to begin with...and that we will respect them far more than their own...sometimes they will too, sometimes not.

If religious guys sell out to non-Muslim girls, it might be because they gave up...which is unfortunate, but maybe the girls aren`t living up to their part of the bargain. If he can`t find a person on the same religious par as himself, then the guy might just figure that he may as well get ``pretty`` or ``motivated`` or ``smart`` since no one around him is ``religious``. It`s not a good argument, but i know people who think that way (ie girls who sell out and become common like everyone else, and guys who get frustrated with being a good guy without any recognition of it and so give up). [And when i specify guy or girl here, it`s interchangeable depending on your perspective...]

And if they do convert, is it for you or for Allah? And if they don`t convert, do you (even in your mannerisms?) If religion isn`t an issue, then ignore this question. But i know two family friends who married non-indo/paks--one married jewish, the other christian (the latter converted and is more staunch than he). The jewish couple keep to themselves (not because other people shun them. In fact, it`s the opposite. But they feel out of place, and trying to bend over and compensate for them makes things even worse--they themselves choose not to come when invited because they feel awkward. this so called reversion to the ``mean`` happened to her, and she became more like her jewish mother, and she changed in ways he didn`t forsee, and now will admit he`s not unhappy but not as happy as he might have been). The other couple is doing very well, because they do have something very deep connecting them (faith) that has transcended the cultural gap (which can cause minor uproars still).

But to have neither is asking for trouble, and as we get older with this person, you don`t have the same energy/enthusiasm/romantic viewpoint as you did in youth. Your parents might be saying all of this (using all the wrong words, and for extraneous reasons), but fundamentally, if you re-think it through, there`s something to what they say...imagine your own kids too.

The Burden of Virginity a.bismal,

I`m surprised to hear that no one really talks about the violation of mutual trust involved in this wedding night scenario. I think that the rules of virginity apply equally to guy or girl--there should be no double-standard. If the guy had admitted the same thing, I would be equally outraged. The issue for me isn`t the physical act of losing one`s virginity (ie the hymen or whatever), but the emotional/spiritual/and even physical cost involved in sex in general.

Sex in this society has been reduced to a very physical and sensual act. ``Everybody is doing it`` is the popular mantra (if you want to be like everybody else!) Instead, sex has a spiritual and vulnerablility aspect too, that can be lost altogether, or if ignored/forgotten, can be taken advantage off. It can lose some of its meaning. I would suggest that people who DON`T see a big deal in virginity are probably missing out on something.

For all our Western beliefs of being ``free``, there are a large number of burdens that come with it, some of which you mentioned and are just not worth it (the pragmatic argument). Alternatively, ``saving oneself for marriage`` is an investment you make in yourself and in your spouse...it speaks to your own self-worth, and even self-discipline. If you appreciate this kind of healthy self-appreciation and strength, you`ll probably seek it in a spouse and in yourself. Probably if you`re a virgin, you have other values that come along with it that also speak toward the same strengths. No one`s asking you to become a monk, but some restraint is an attractive quality. Say what people want, no one wants to live with a ``slut``, whether guy or girl.

The Dream Temporal #1 wrote:

``Another story in the finest traditions of Islamic heritage perceived and vociferously practised in the land of the believers!``

Come on, you have to be kidding!!!

The prophet said, ``Pursue knowledge even if it means going to China.`` Any parents denying the girl`s education are acting in an un-Islamic way. The prophet`s wife Khadija was an independent businesswoman--he LIKED educated women.

Forcing marriage on any person, especially a woman is un-Islamic. A well-established hadith: A woman approached the Prophet and outright refused a match for herself with a well-respected person. The Prophet agreed that the wedding could not take place (because she did not agree), but expressed his surprise. She replied that she was not serious in refusing the would-be suitor, but had only said ``No!`` to emphatically establish the fact that the woman has an equal right in independently deciding her fate.

As for rape, I won`t even go there.

This story represents the heritage of mis-guided muslims...Who knows when we`ll get our act together...

The Dream Zeejah #26:

real writers don`t just reflect reality; they also hint at solutions. They go that extra step, which is what separates them from journalists. good writers just make it look subtle.

Nuns and Tawaifs As a counterpoint to this article, I appreciated the article on ``Huma, Miss India, and my photo`` because, although it shows our foibles in a genuine manner, there is a reason for her writing the article...it`s a gentle reminder (which resonates far more with me). Her desire to not change her picture represents something more--it`s a general shift in her world view. She`s thinking!

From the point of writing, she not only paints a dilemma, but shares her feelings when coming to a resolution. I didn`t feel like Shiraz`s did that, or at least, not as well.

Nuns and Tawaifs Essensaur #20

Your response is a well-thought out one, specifically in reference to ``growing pains`` that we all go through...making mistakes is a part of life--like receiving some bit of disease in the form of a vaccine, in order to effect a cure. This I will not deny!

No doubt that we all need to struggle/grow up, but I just wonder whether the level at which we (young muslims collectively) are currently struggling is reaching new lows as of late. [at least, for the general chowk audience; other discourse communities may differ]. Of course we aren`t prophets (or Ishmael for that matter), but I wonder how worthy the battles are that we currently struggle over, as a generation. This is a rhetorical question...

In some respects, we`ve gotten spoilt with over indulgences. Just my opinion.

I don`t know the author`s intention, but I get some inkling that he is glorifying his ``mistakes``, rather than trying to learn or work through them. Just moving headlong into them...(with some help from the girl), not wanting to think them through as much, or until later. Or maybe the author wishes this wasn`t a problem, doesn`t even try to muster some will power, and so he embraces them head on. I don`t know...maybe he doesn`t really recognize a mistake.

To beg a larger question, I just worry that our generation tends to find its mistakes somewhat ``alluring``, which usually spells the historical downfall of many people. Part of that is broadcasting our mistakes to gain strange noteriety, rather than as a remorseful warning to others.

Of course, maybe it`s only me who sees the protagonist making a mistake. As you pointed out, I shouldn`t generalize my feelings on others. But then again, as part of a muslim community, what assumptions about ourselves (as muslims) am I allowed to keep? I know that there are people today who don`t follow the ``guidelines`` (some even flaunt them!), but at least I know what the ``guidelines`` are! That much at least is simple. We can`t rubberstamp people into one brand, but while maintaining individuality, there still needs to be some basic principles in operation that we all agree on.

Nothing is ever black and white, but every community has certain requirements in order to enjoy its collective priveleges. I can accept (as a brother) the alcoholic muslim who is at least trying to become sober--because at least he recognizes it as wrong and is trying to help himself. I won`t recognize the muslim who makes his prayers but beats his wife, if he doesn`t see something wrong with it [``is it piety to turn your face from east to west?``]. In either case, I couldn`t give up on the person.

However, I will never accept a person who calls himself a muslim but doesn`t believe in Allah (as the Quran describes Him, not the media or wherever some people get their information!). Either you are, or you aren`t, by definition of the word, ``muslim``. Somedays, my level of certainty may wax and wane, but in my heart, at least I feel/recognize/celebrate that connection.

But to do something wrong, in the face of better knowledge, and not change or repent after understanding why, is inexcusable--whether you`re a muslim or not. As a general rule of thumb, you gotta ``live the examined life``--socrates.

I hope that that is the author`s intent. Otherwise, it would just seem like hot air to me.

Nuns and Tawaifs it`s sad in a pathetic sort of way...it may not be autobiographical, but it doesn`t strike any chord of resonance with me...and i feel bad for the readers in whom it does. Who`d want to marry that kind of guy, anyway?

all this kid (in the story) lives for is to be touched by a random girl, and when he actually does, he`ll be disappointed (maybe not immediately, but soon). And if he isn`t, then I question what he`s living for anyway.

Surprise!! there`s more to life than sexual tension.

One doesn`t have to be a eunnuch, but men aren`t wilderbeasts either. don`t believe the hype.

Miss India, Huma, and my photo this was a very refreshing article...I`m sorry about your sister.

this was a reminder to get my priorities straight in life...thanks.

Stairway To Heaven I think if we looked at history from the vantage of time, we might see that what appears bad is good, and vice versa.

Iran was seeped in decadence. Khomeini freed it, though there was a price at the time--a very strict reaction to the debauchery of before--mandatory purdah etc. Modern day Iran has shifted to the moderate now, with education for women and a booming movie industry...in only 20-30 years.

The Taliban may be in a similar position, where a moderation that comes with time may eventually persevere. Pakistan is slowly slipping from moderate to decadence.

When the Mongols defeated the muslim powers (sacked the libraries of Baghdad!!), one would have thought it was the worst thing Allah could have decreed. But, it turned out that they converted to Islam and were able to infuse the civilization with a new found energy that had been lost in the lassitude of the conquered muslims.

Sometimes Muslims forget where they come from--the major portion of the world spoke arabic, not english like now. No need to be apologetic then, but the ups and downs of power/dominence, or conservatism/liberalness tend to swing like the tide.

We hit a low after WWI (hence the lament of Iqbal). But right now, Islam is on the upswing, and there`s not much people can do to stop it. There will be some reaction to the left, but in a few decades things will swing to the middle. And the major impetus will come from the West.

40 Sayings Of A Modern Sufi Master thanks for the rememberances (zikr). There was an excellent talk at Harvard last week about sufism and Islam, speaking about Rumi in particular. The major point was that sufism can be best understood once placed in the context of Islam, even though the message is universal. i think these 40 sayings reflect that theme.

Temporal:

My take is that ``good deeds`` is like a vector (containing both a `direction` and a `magnitude`). Without direction, the magnitude of your work may be aimless...like dust before the wind. Without effort, you`re in the same place as you started, though you may be staring in the right direction. No sense in arguing which is better, when neither is any good.

As for who is a good/bad Muslim, Allah knows best...but He does give some clues in the Quran, ie furqaan (criterion).

tibor:

a little quick to judge, huh? only time can tell what`s gibberish or not. there are others with more literary depth that will agree with many of the sayings (in fact, those with more depth probably would agree!) It makes you wonder why Rumi is the best selling poet in North America of all time--many people, muslims and non-muslims, are finding some truth in it.

GFM:

agree with your point.

What is lacking inside... A thought provoking article. It (and the replies) made me think of some stuff i`d forgotten, so I thought I`d add my 2cents.

The quote from Zahra #1: ``Do not keep the company of anyone/Whose state does not inspire you,`` made me think of how the author mentioned being in a grey zone, and hypothetically chosing between Gandhi and Lord Byron. Both have merit, but you pick to be like the person whose life is more inspiring. Like the friends you pick in everyday life, who reflect you. People will pick differently, of course.

Regarding choosing, what I find interesting is the description of the author as ``a Muslim by faith, having decided for herself.`` It`s funny how some people like myself (in the grey zone) take being Muslim as a birthright, almost like being born Spanish. NZK #7 described it as ``not just a religion, but a way of life``. Being `muslim` might actually mean the adoption of a certain perspective or mental attitude which is in a constant state of flux, even during the course of the day! Maybe we are getting trapped by the same thought process as the American Jews, many of whom now see Judaism as a distinct culture or history of their people, rather than, a ``way of life``. In contrast, Islam can foster a certain culture, but it`s not a culture in itself.

NZK #7 also talks about the miracle of the Koran. A friend of mine once tried to address this to me. Part of the miracle is that people of differing backgrounds can each read it and get something out of it appropriate to their individual level of understanding. Assuming a certain level of basic agreement, each personal view is fine, and speaks towards Islam`s flexibility, not ambiguity (if treated properly). So the book speaks to the breadth of humanity. He also felt that though the words/message are constant, the significance can often vary based on the person reading it--there are layers of deeper and deeper meaning, that can change slightly in color depending on the reader`s mood at that moment. The same words, like a prism, can refract light (truth) differently into a spectrum of colors which we can individually examine. The meaning can ``evolve`` for the same person too, as he/she becomes older and more understanding without a real change in the inherent words. (Like a poem, that gets better the more you read it, or a song that now makes sense since `it` has happened to you). The miracle is that the Koran is constantly explaining our psychological state of affairs, explaining the nature of man, predicting how man reacts in certain situations. So, is it really the Koran/islam that is evolving, or the person reading it?? Is it God that`s changing, or our esteem of /relationship to God that changes over time?

SameerJB referred to the ``evolution`` of God. I don`t know if God has become the dependent variable now with Science (a conceptual idol?) as the new yardstick. I think modern muslims have accidentally carried over Judeo-christian-agnostic concepts of God into our religion (through our modern education), and we are having a tough time dissecting what`s what. Which causes some of us to reject ``god``, without realizing that the God of the Koran is cast in a different light than the Torah and Bible. [One quick example of differing concepts is that in common judeo-christian thought/popular culture, Satan and God are thought of as yin-yang (opposing forces) ala Geogre Burns movies. The Koran is very clear in that Satan is a co-equal creation vying with Man, not Allah--so it`s a different playing field. (A non-Muslim pointed this out to me)]. Also, the 99 names of Allah (eg, the Peace, the Helper) do make God personal and internalized without delinking God from religion per se or making it seem like a ``warm fuzzy feeling``.

I agree with SameerJB`s view that ``acquiring knowledge means acquiring up-to-date knowledge.`` Reminds me of a hadith, saying ``Go unto China to find knowledge.`` The knowledge referred to there was of the scientific/technologic sense, which makes you wonder whether the radical Mullahs reciting duahs only can really understand the whole of religion. So, Western education is good, but it helps to filter the good and bad of it.

At any rate, I feel glad for the author. I privately hope something happens for me.

Life on Earth: Chance or Deliberate I agree with the above.

When the Quran says, ``there are signs in nature, for the believing folk,`` Allah (swt) is referring to Nature as a witness to His creative abilities.

As a part of nature, we too are a witness.

Atheistic Western science erects concepts like Evolution or Mother Nature as independent phenomena that are self-regulating in order to explain the Hidden--these principles become idols of scientific worship unto themselves. This is not to deny that evolution etc doesn`t work; for example, there is the force of gravity, but we don`t worship gravity as acting like a non-contingent being. It`s just a force to factor into the calculation when doing physics problems...

Whether we wish to see it or not, proof of Allah`s creation exists--not in logical theorems--but from an honest feeling deep inside your gut--by staring at nature and getting a sense of awe. Unfortunately, some people don`t give themselves a chance to see it--``deaf, dumb, blind, they will not return to the path.`` (Quran 2:19). Then they laugh at the people who DO see it, and dismiss them as ``unscientific``. Like the article`s analogy of the embryo trying to imagine the dawn...

The challenge for the muslim world now is to realize that the study of science is an endeavor to come closer to understanding God, but not to try and become God (which is a more Western approach). The former has always been the historical perspective of Islamic science, but we growing up with a Western education may forget that subtle difference when we study our modern

science.This distinction is important, because Western science is also heavily steeped in Christian ideology. According to these scientists, (including the likes of Isaac Newton to the NASA space mission), science is still a

religious endeavor. However, their concept is to re-create the status of man before Original Sin by becoming god-like. They seek to make man perfect again, (genome project/cloning?), which is a self-defeating task.

There`s nothing wrong with technology and research, but it`s the application of science which is important and requires wisdom. Wisdom without context--without an overriding perspective--is dangerous.

Islam is simple in these regards--just a few guiding principles, and none of the complex tension found in the Christian ideology.

One of the reasons people discount Islam is that they`ve made it far too complex than it really is: as Thoreau put it, ``simplify, simplify, simplify!``

Simplicity is what science offers. What scientists do (the political application of knowledge) is a different thing. Don`t point to the atom if we decide to split it over Nagasaki...

Simplicity is what Quran offers. What Muslims do in their ignorance is a different thing. Don`t blame Islam for what we do...