listing 1-16
1 2
New Chowk, Classic Chowk
I am particularly in favour of your suggestion #9. But I feel that the agreement should be on ``home developed``, because we have begged, borrowed or stolen huge amounts of technology from elsewhere. The bombs, the rockets are ``domestically and indigenously`` made but were not //developed// locally. They must be banned. And I offer myself as a neutral observer, a supervisor of categorizing armament. Now, please don`t ask ``for whom would I be neutral``?
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Veeresh: My man, I am with you all the way. I think you have written an `interesting` and a provocative essay.I am particularly in favour of your suggestion #9. But I feel that the agreement should be on ``home developed``, because we have begged, borrowed or stolen huge amounts of technology from elsewhere. The bombs, the rockets are ``domestically and indigenously`` made but were not //developed// locally. They must be banned. And I offer myself as a neutral observer, a supervisor of categorizing armament. Now, please don`t ask ``for whom would I be neutral``?
Boundaries or Bridges?
Now, SameerJB could write ten posts and get # 300 with some certitude on bahmad`s board. But no such `shenanigan` could work for #1. Challo, bhaii, zinda raho aur khush raho.
Salwak sent a post asking what did I think if he says that for the Chowk`s recent atmosphere he says that it is timely. I agreed with him/her/him/her. After having joined my voice with that I feel the problem to be so domestic that I should be very hurt if this one also gets on a side spur. I feel that Chowk organization needs attention. If the rules allow, then the offer of funds and time should be accepted. Because of my circumstances at this time I can participate in both if the invitation is extended to a group of few chosen individuals for time, particularly.
Part I.
All other bridges are pleasant to see and hear about, but they are meaningless, not that we shouldn`t have them, but are so, in comparison with the bridges which we need to build between our brains (weltanschauung; `world-view`) and the external reality; scientific, and POLITICAL. The world has changed drastically since last fifteen odd years and, most particularly, since last six or seven years. In addition to political and the world of science we now have the `tech` world, an example of which is this, my, post, Chowk, Beena`s article, your response and hundreds that will follow. [And which, I predict, will end up as ``Trip to Pakistan and the Kashmir as folly of the Pakis``.
``You see, there is this elephant, a large four footed animal who has a `wormlike` trunk. Now there are nine types of worms; type one... .``
Iqbal, on the building of a mosque in one night, on the Circular Road Lahore, between Moti (now mochi) Darwaza and Lohari Darwaza, said a poem. A couplet of which is:
Iqbal barra updeshak hai m`n batoun main moh laita hai
Guftar ka ghazi b`n to gaiya, kirdar ka ghazi b`n na sakaa
We are ghazi-e-guftar. Batain hum barrey mazey ki, lachhey dar, k`rtey hain. Neither this post, yours, nor this article falls outside the pale of my description.
Remember, Justice Kyani said. At the end of every day ask yourself what have I done for Pakistan today!
[Many years later an American President said, ``Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country``], and we remember it as if it were a saheefa-e-aasmani, an oracle. I saw Americans follow it in action. You live in the States. What is your observation now?
Do you know what do we, Pakistanis, do? Nothing. What Kyani said, we forgot the next day. We remembered only the funny portions of his speech. Or admired his thought in this admonition, and then forgot it.
The following may not sound immediately relevant but we shall come back to it, in Part II perhaps. I was very disturbed to see a request in a letter to the editor, in the Dawn of 19th February, that the garden next to Mr. Jinnah`s mausoleum be named ``Rutti Jinnah`s Bagh``. A noble sentiment and idea. But the writer says further that he requests the CE to kindly name it ....
My immediate reaction was to go out and beat him and every other Pakistani with a similar mode of thinking. Consider the mizaj: ``Government should do something``.
Let`s go and ask him: Now, Why don`t //You// go around your locality, talk to some like-minded people, establish 2-3 person committees in different parts of the city, including yours, and canvass people to sign a petition requesting the name preferred for the bagh, so that when it goes `above` it is felt and known, that //people// want this.
And does the Prime Minister, the President, or only CE has to be addressed for this kind of preference? Why? Do these people name gardens and parks around the country? Which is the proper body to take your `petition` to? Should it not be your Municipal Committee or corporation? Do you not have a Mayor, a Deputy mayor, a City Council, your local Councilor? Why should the CE step in? Why should you not address the Committee, the Council, the mayor, the municipal corporation? What kind of inflated self-concept do you have of yourself, that you think that you would send a letter to a paper (not read in all of Pakistan, either), the EC will read it and name it Rutti Jinnah Bagh.
You know why all of this is not done? Because we think, ``the government should do somthing about it``. The other route means your involvement, getting off your big, thick butt, take initiative and do some work, including canvassing, argument, convincing, seeing your councilor, going to your city`s Council meeting(s).
I am going to suggest another method: Find out, definitely and DEFINITIVELY, what body or person(s) is/are responsible. Then prepare four, five, or six different drafts of an application and distribute them to the persons who have agreed with you.
Not LOOOONNNNGGGG drafts.(I assume, the `explanatory` letter has already gone) Just, ``we_________(name optional) or, the resident of ``Defense``, ``Alhamra`` etc., Society, request that the bagh being created next to the Quaid`s maqbra be named after his beloved wife....`` Apka/e mukhlas......
Buy some envelopes (collect or donate nominal sums of money) and ask the ``respondents`` (remember, they should know you and trust you), to put the completed letter in the envelope and mail it. This way, there will be witnesses of mailings so that if such a matter ever has to be taken to a different venue (higher body, court), there would be witnesses for mailings. I feel leaving the mailings to the respondents may result in `absences` because of usual forgetfulness.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
On a related but different matter:
It seems to me that since the ``AmeriPaks`` are not any different from the rest of us pedestrians, perhaps all we are interested in is to see our name in print. That`s an enough satisfaction for us. In an economically rigid, stratified society, when enough, or what we consider `due-us`, rewards do not come our way, then in that society, we jump at any `distinction` that might set us apart from the rest. Quite often it is due to a certain degree of ``status inconsistency``, mention of which has already been made in the Chowk.
I sometime wonder if certain individuals are not using inclusion of any type of their writing on the Chowk as their `published` work, and, in their jobs, are receiving merit increments and earlier promotions on the bases of these ``publications``.
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
· There are usually `morals` at the end of stories and such. The moral of the above is that it is not necessary that everything should have a moral!
Part II to follow.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Dear `t` I wanted to be #1. Now, SameerJB could write ten posts and get # 300 with some certitude on bahmad`s board. But no such `shenanigan` could work for #1. Challo, bhaii, zinda raho aur khush raho.
Salwak sent a post asking what did I think if he says that for the Chowk`s recent atmosphere he says that it is timely. I agreed with him/her/him/her. After having joined my voice with that I feel the problem to be so domestic that I should be very hurt if this one also gets on a side spur. I feel that Chowk organization needs attention. If the rules allow, then the offer of funds and time should be accepted. Because of my circumstances at this time I can participate in both if the invitation is extended to a group of few chosen individuals for time, particularly.
Part I.
All other bridges are pleasant to see and hear about, but they are meaningless, not that we shouldn`t have them, but are so, in comparison with the bridges which we need to build between our brains (weltanschauung; `world-view`) and the external reality; scientific, and POLITICAL. The world has changed drastically since last fifteen odd years and, most particularly, since last six or seven years. In addition to political and the world of science we now have the `tech` world, an example of which is this, my, post, Chowk, Beena`s article, your response and hundreds that will follow. [And which, I predict, will end up as ``Trip to Pakistan and the Kashmir as folly of the Pakis``.
``You see, there is this elephant, a large four footed animal who has a `wormlike` trunk. Now there are nine types of worms; type one... .``
Iqbal, on the building of a mosque in one night, on the Circular Road Lahore, between Moti (now mochi) Darwaza and Lohari Darwaza, said a poem. A couplet of which is:
Iqbal barra updeshak hai m`n batoun main moh laita hai
Guftar ka ghazi b`n to gaiya, kirdar ka ghazi b`n na sakaa
We are ghazi-e-guftar. Batain hum barrey mazey ki, lachhey dar, k`rtey hain. Neither this post, yours, nor this article falls outside the pale of my description.
Remember, Justice Kyani said. At the end of every day ask yourself what have I done for Pakistan today!
[Many years later an American President said, ``Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country``], and we remember it as if it were a saheefa-e-aasmani, an oracle. I saw Americans follow it in action. You live in the States. What is your observation now?
Do you know what do we, Pakistanis, do? Nothing. What Kyani said, we forgot the next day. We remembered only the funny portions of his speech. Or admired his thought in this admonition, and then forgot it.
The following may not sound immediately relevant but we shall come back to it, in Part II perhaps. I was very disturbed to see a request in a letter to the editor, in the Dawn of 19th February, that the garden next to Mr. Jinnah`s mausoleum be named ``Rutti Jinnah`s Bagh``. A noble sentiment and idea. But the writer says further that he requests the CE to kindly name it ....
My immediate reaction was to go out and beat him and every other Pakistani with a similar mode of thinking. Consider the mizaj: ``Government should do something``.
Let`s go and ask him: Now, Why don`t //You// go around your locality, talk to some like-minded people, establish 2-3 person committees in different parts of the city, including yours, and canvass people to sign a petition requesting the name preferred for the bagh, so that when it goes `above` it is felt and known, that //people// want this.
And does the Prime Minister, the President, or only CE has to be addressed for this kind of preference? Why? Do these people name gardens and parks around the country? Which is the proper body to take your `petition` to? Should it not be your Municipal Committee or corporation? Do you not have a Mayor, a Deputy mayor, a City Council, your local Councilor? Why should the CE step in? Why should you not address the Committee, the Council, the mayor, the municipal corporation? What kind of inflated self-concept do you have of yourself, that you think that you would send a letter to a paper (not read in all of Pakistan, either), the EC will read it and name it Rutti Jinnah Bagh.
You know why all of this is not done? Because we think, ``the government should do somthing about it``. The other route means your involvement, getting off your big, thick butt, take initiative and do some work, including canvassing, argument, convincing, seeing your councilor, going to your city`s Council meeting(s).
I am going to suggest another method: Find out, definitely and DEFINITIVELY, what body or person(s) is/are responsible. Then prepare four, five, or six different drafts of an application and distribute them to the persons who have agreed with you.
Not LOOOONNNNGGGG drafts.(I assume, the `explanatory` letter has already gone) Just, ``we_________(name optional) or, the resident of ``Defense``, ``Alhamra`` etc., Society, request that the bagh being created next to the Quaid`s maqbra be named after his beloved wife....`` Apka/e mukhlas......
Buy some envelopes (collect or donate nominal sums of money) and ask the ``respondents`` (remember, they should know you and trust you), to put the completed letter in the envelope and mail it. This way, there will be witnesses of mailings so that if such a matter ever has to be taken to a different venue (higher body, court), there would be witnesses for mailings. I feel leaving the mailings to the respondents may result in `absences` because of usual forgetfulness.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
On a related but different matter:
It seems to me that since the ``AmeriPaks`` are not any different from the rest of us pedestrians, perhaps all we are interested in is to see our name in print. That`s an enough satisfaction for us. In an economically rigid, stratified society, when enough, or what we consider `due-us`, rewards do not come our way, then in that society, we jump at any `distinction` that might set us apart from the rest. Quite often it is due to a certain degree of ``status inconsistency``, mention of which has already been made in the Chowk.
I sometime wonder if certain individuals are not using inclusion of any type of their writing on the Chowk as their `published` work, and, in their jobs, are receiving merit increments and earlier promotions on the bases of these ``publications``.
cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
· There are usually `morals` at the end of stories and such. The moral of the above is that it is not necessary that everything should have a moral!
Part II to follow.
Let us Not be Foolish
[I am pointing out to this very attitude that prevailed upon the Bush adminstration. After the Desert Storm they could have ensured the break-up of Iraq. There is a lesson to learn.]
Dear Cool t:
May I be so presumptuous as to ask you to expand on the above, or, perhaps paraphrase it.
I think I do understand, I hope, what you are saying here but it is possible that you have something, symbolically, in mind than what I understand.
You may disregard this request should you feel that you have said what you wanted/had to say.
Most Sincerely yours.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Temporal #13 [I am pointing out to this very attitude that prevailed upon the Bush adminstration. After the Desert Storm they could have ensured the break-up of Iraq. There is a lesson to learn.]
Dear Cool t:
May I be so presumptuous as to ask you to expand on the above, or, perhaps paraphrase it.
I think I do understand, I hope, what you are saying here but it is possible that you have something, symbolically, in mind than what I understand.
You may disregard this request should you feel that you have said what you wanted/had to say.
Most Sincerely yours.
In the Supreme National Interest
The following was left out of #289
Shankar Shah Ji:
Aap sirf silly hi nahaiN, aap uncivil aur discourteous bhi haiN. Rationality and courtesy are essential qualities in a human being. Inculcate them. Learn them.
I wrote a civil letter and you respond that, ``I
cant[sic] believe how ubelievably ignorant you are ... .]. Forget about courtesy, your English
composition also seems to be weak! You ``believe`` how ``unbelievably... .`` By all means take a course in English for immigrants, or English as a second language.
So, ``They were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Oh, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which, later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Did you have a dictionary handy since they wrote words as ``opportunity``, as in
``India had waited for [such] an opportunity for 25 years to dismember Pakistan... .
Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Arrrey, ``Y`k na shudd, do shudd.`` Not only ``opportunity`` but also ``pretext``. How did you cope with that situation?
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Addendum: The number of Indian homeless and food (langar) seekers in the camps were about half a million. The Indian army would stop tens of thousands of more ``Calcutta refugees`` daily from entering the area. Because of lack of supplies they feared riots. Five riots in all had taken place.
There was no `boundry` between East Pakistan and Indian army encampments and the refugee camps. Among the scores of foreign correspondents two Canadian Broadcasting Corporation`s (CBC) correspondents, that I know, were there. One, the senior one, came and went, but stayed after the ``fall of Dhakka``. He explained his hatred towards Pakistan as a result of his experience in Chekoslovakia in the 1960s. I think he is still the Chief Foreign correspondent of CBC. The other one was also a senior correspondent of the corporation and stayed there for over a month. All of them wanted some ``action`` soon since they had been primed with the beautiful brochures, daily briefings and the pitiable lot of the refugees. Not a single word of these ``refugees`` was ever translated to tell them what the people said. They held these foreign correspondents by their ankles, knees or whatever and begged to have a daughter, a son, or a sister admitted to the hospital. Some even had leprosy and were avoided by others. Others had tuberclosis, in open wound infection and other hudreds of medical problems. The translators heard ``for God sake get us back to our homes, our lands, or, do you see my sister/daughter? She has been repeatedly raped for four days. She`ll die``. But these correspondents were getting bored.
The day the Indian tanks moved in I saw these correspondents standing or just hanging onto the racing tanks. When I met this second senior correspondent of CBC I asked him why did he do that? ``Hey just went for the ride. It was fun``. He was one correspondent whose picture on the news film is the clearest and is worth watching.
And you talk to me of cover stories!
To me it is regretful that even the Pakistanis have swallowed the Indian propaganda and in fact believe that their army did ``all or most`` of the atrocities. They did. Particularly men of middle ranks but only for a while. But their share would be less than 1/3rd of the total. Get in touch with me if you need further sorry, sordid and the gory details of what the Indians did.
N.B. Do please see a post or two on the ``He Had NO Choice``, written by a contributor whose family`s women were dragged in the streets raped, disfigured and killed by the INDIAN mukti bahni.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Re:#258,264,266,269The following was left out of #289
Shankar Shah Ji:
Aap sirf silly hi nahaiN, aap uncivil aur discourteous bhi haiN. Rationality and courtesy are essential qualities in a human being. Inculcate them. Learn them.
I wrote a civil letter and you respond that, ``I
cant[sic] believe how ubelievably ignorant you are ... .]. Forget about courtesy, your English
composition also seems to be weak! You ``believe`` how ``unbelievably... .`` By all means take a course in English for immigrants, or English as a second language.
So, ``They were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Oh, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which, later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Did you have a dictionary handy since they wrote words as ``opportunity``, as in
``India had waited for [such] an opportunity for 25 years to dismember Pakistan... .
Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Arrrey, ``Y`k na shudd, do shudd.`` Not only ``opportunity`` but also ``pretext``. How did you cope with that situation?
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Addendum: The number of Indian homeless and food (langar) seekers in the camps were about half a million. The Indian army would stop tens of thousands of more ``Calcutta refugees`` daily from entering the area. Because of lack of supplies they feared riots. Five riots in all had taken place.
There was no `boundry` between East Pakistan and Indian army encampments and the refugee camps. Among the scores of foreign correspondents two Canadian Broadcasting Corporation`s (CBC) correspondents, that I know, were there. One, the senior one, came and went, but stayed after the ``fall of Dhakka``. He explained his hatred towards Pakistan as a result of his experience in Chekoslovakia in the 1960s. I think he is still the Chief Foreign correspondent of CBC. The other one was also a senior correspondent of the corporation and stayed there for over a month. All of them wanted some ``action`` soon since they had been primed with the beautiful brochures, daily briefings and the pitiable lot of the refugees. Not a single word of these ``refugees`` was ever translated to tell them what the people said. They held these foreign correspondents by their ankles, knees or whatever and begged to have a daughter, a son, or a sister admitted to the hospital. Some even had leprosy and were avoided by others. Others had tuberclosis, in open wound infection and other hudreds of medical problems. The translators heard ``for God sake get us back to our homes, our lands, or, do you see my sister/daughter? She has been repeatedly raped for four days. She`ll die``. But these correspondents were getting bored.
The day the Indian tanks moved in I saw these correspondents standing or just hanging onto the racing tanks. When I met this second senior correspondent of CBC I asked him why did he do that? ``Hey just went for the ride. It was fun``. He was one correspondent whose picture on the news film is the clearest and is worth watching.
And you talk to me of cover stories!
To me it is regretful that even the Pakistanis have swallowed the Indian propaganda and in fact believe that their army did ``all or most`` of the atrocities. They did. Particularly men of middle ranks but only for a while. But their share would be less than 1/3rd of the total. Get in touch with me if you need further sorry, sordid and the gory details of what the Indians did.
N.B. Do please see a post or two on the ``He Had NO Choice``, written by a contributor whose family`s women were dragged in the streets raped, disfigured and killed by the INDIAN mukti bahni.
In the Supreme National Interest
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
{the number and burden of `refugees` in India from Bangladesh was neither horrendous, nor heavy enough to cripple India`s economy, especially when one factors into the situation, as the foreign
correspondents whisperingly, but openly, indicated that these ``refugee Camps` included a large number of the homeless, the hungry in-need-of-two-semi-square-meals Indian population of local areas including a large number from Calcutta City.}
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Shankar Shah Ji:
So, ``They[sic] were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Now, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which ,later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Did you, also, read COVER STORIES of TIME magazine of just a few years before and after? During the Vietnamese war? Particularly during the early and middle phases of the war?
So, you were watching the NBC nightly news the other day, and by Tom Brokaw, no less! Man, are you ever lucky. How can I win the immigration lottery so I become an immigrant too? They say, that `aaloo putney kayliyea mazdoor b`n saktey ho`. Ab aap hi bataaiyea keh main aapka muqabila kaissey k`r saktaa houN!
In any case, so you were watching the NBC nightly news by Tom Brokaw and the news showed the Chechniyan situation. Then you give me, the poor fellow who never went beyond ``D`` model of Kodak, the technological specifications of camcorders and why such tapes can`t be smuggled out of Kashmir to show massacres.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Shankar #264
[``Do we see that about Kashmir{on CNN, NBC}? Tapes about genocide & human rights abuses can easily be smmuggled out in this day & age of hand held video cameras. What news specials are evident in any channel on Kashmir. Since there are no such smuggled tapes why do you Pakistanis cry about it.``]
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Shankar, have you ever thought of self-commitment? Are you in possession of your rational faculties in asking such a question? The question is dastardly in its own right. On top of that you do not even know the geography (not topography, you mad man) of Chechenya. It is open from eight different sides!
If nothing is happening in Kashmir then the 400,000-500,000 soldiers apni bébé ko milnay kay liyea wahaaN gai huay haiN? What daftness!
But let me proceed further.
You people jump into Chowk with both shoes on. Buss jutooN kay saath ghussey chaley aatey ho. Did you read a few previous posts before you brought your deihi in here? Do you know I declared very early on that I am not a Pakistani, nor Indian or American? Would you believe Bangladeshi? I WAS THERE! I know what happened. You didn`t read any of what follows. Right? So keep your trap shut about censor in Pakistan and about what I was allowed to read or not read. You did read, I tell you, quite a bit of what I wrote, you understand? Read the following too from elswhere on the chowk.
And, I did decide to respond to you despite your invitation not to. (I guess you must have heard the Persian saying ``The answer to the ignorant-fool is silence``. I still decided that you have to be ``informed``.
I think that with the likes of you Chowk has become too stuffy, too claustrphobic and too unbearable - otherwise - for me. I shall not enter here again.
From elsewhere:
[... out of Indians who were creating trouble
for everybody there(East Pakistan). They started mayhem, raped women (and taught mukti Bahini, most of which consisted of Indian regular soldiers and mercenaries hired in West Bengal and only a few from East Pakistan) and while //teaching//, they picked up women and raped them and cut off their breasts and did unspeakable deeds. Read some of the Mukti Bahni interviews --(that is, interviews) of those who could not live with their conscience for deeds that Indians perpetrated and taught them to practice. You know, as the rest of the mass media of the world knows, Indian soldiers and their members of the Mukti Bahini from West Bengal wore Pakistani army uniforms before going to the country and even to cities like Chitagong where the wives of upper cadres of army were also
subjected to this savagery. ... .]
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Shankar # Quotes Shahzad CWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
{the number and burden of `refugees` in India from Bangladesh was neither horrendous, nor heavy enough to cripple India`s economy, especially when one factors into the situation, as the foreign
correspondents whisperingly, but openly, indicated that these ``refugee Camps` included a large number of the homeless, the hungry in-need-of-two-semi-square-meals Indian population of local areas including a large number from Calcutta City.}
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Shankar Shah Ji:
So, ``They[sic] were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Now, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which ,later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Did you, also, read COVER STORIES of TIME magazine of just a few years before and after? During the Vietnamese war? Particularly during the early and middle phases of the war?
So, you were watching the NBC nightly news the other day, and by Tom Brokaw, no less! Man, are you ever lucky. How can I win the immigration lottery so I become an immigrant too? They say, that `aaloo putney kayliyea mazdoor b`n saktey ho`. Ab aap hi bataaiyea keh main aapka muqabila kaissey k`r saktaa houN!
In any case, so you were watching the NBC nightly news by Tom Brokaw and the news showed the Chechniyan situation. Then you give me, the poor fellow who never went beyond ``D`` model of Kodak, the technological specifications of camcorders and why such tapes can`t be smuggled out of Kashmir to show massacres.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Shankar #264
[``Do we see that about Kashmir{on CNN, NBC}? Tapes about genocide & human rights abuses can easily be smmuggled out in this day & age of hand held video cameras. What news specials are evident in any channel on Kashmir. Since there are no such smuggled tapes why do you Pakistanis cry about it.``]
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Shankar, have you ever thought of self-commitment? Are you in possession of your rational faculties in asking such a question? The question is dastardly in its own right. On top of that you do not even know the geography (not topography, you mad man) of Chechenya. It is open from eight different sides!
If nothing is happening in Kashmir then the 400,000-500,000 soldiers apni bébé ko milnay kay liyea wahaaN gai huay haiN? What daftness!
But let me proceed further.
You people jump into Chowk with both shoes on. Buss jutooN kay saath ghussey chaley aatey ho. Did you read a few previous posts before you brought your deihi in here? Do you know I declared very early on that I am not a Pakistani, nor Indian or American? Would you believe Bangladeshi? I WAS THERE! I know what happened. You didn`t read any of what follows. Right? So keep your trap shut about censor in Pakistan and about what I was allowed to read or not read. You did read, I tell you, quite a bit of what I wrote, you understand? Read the following too from elswhere on the chowk.
And, I did decide to respond to you despite your invitation not to. (I guess you must have heard the Persian saying ``The answer to the ignorant-fool is silence``. I still decided that you have to be ``informed``.
I think that with the likes of you Chowk has become too stuffy, too claustrphobic and too unbearable - otherwise - for me. I shall not enter here again.
From elsewhere:
[... out of Indians who were creating trouble
for everybody there(East Pakistan). They started mayhem, raped women (and taught mukti Bahini, most of which consisted of Indian regular soldiers and mercenaries hired in West Bengal and only a few from East Pakistan) and while //teaching//, they picked up women and raped them and cut off their breasts and did unspeakable deeds. Read some of the Mukti Bahni interviews --(that is, interviews) of those who could not live with their conscience for deeds that Indians perpetrated and taught them to practice. You know, as the rest of the mass media of the world knows, Indian soldiers and their members of the Mukti Bahini from West Bengal wore Pakistani army uniforms before going to the country and even to cities like Chitagong where the wives of upper cadres of army were also
subjected to this savagery. ... .]
In the Supreme National Interest
The following was left out of #289
Shankar Shah Ji:
Aap sirf silly hi nahaiN, aap uncivil aur discourteous bhi haiN. Rationality and courtesy are essential qualities in a human being. Inculcate them. Learn them.
I wrote a civil letter and you respond that, ``I
cant[sic] believe how ubelievably ignorant you are ... .]. Forget about courtesy, your English
composition also seems to be weak! You ``believe`` how ``unbelievably... .`` By all means take a course in English for immigrants, or English as a second language.
So, ``They were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Oh, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which, later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Did you have a dictionary handy since they wrote words as ``opportunity``, as in
``India had waited for [such] an opportunity for 25 years to dismember Pakistan... .
Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Arrrey, ``Y`k na shudd, do shudd.`` Not only ``opportunity`` but also ``pretext``. How did you cope with that situation?
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Addendum: The number of Indian homeless and food (langar) seekers in the camps were about half a million. The Indian army would stop tens of thousands of more ``Calcutta refugees`` daily from entering the area. Because of lack of supplies they feared riots. Five riots in all had taken place.
There was no `boundry` between East Pakistan and Indian army encampments and the refugee camps. Among the scores of foreign correspondents two Canadian Broadcasting Corporation`s (CBC) correspondents, that I know, were there. One, the senior one, came and went, but stayed after the ``fall of Dhakka``. He explained his hatred towards Pakistan as a result of his experience in Chekoslovakia in the 1960s. I think he is still the Chief Foreign correspondent of CBC. The other one was also a senior correspondent of the corporation and stayed there for over a month. All of them wanted some ``action`` soon since they had been primed with the beautiful brochures, daily briefings and the pitiable lot of the refugees. Not a single word of these ``refugees`` was ever translated to tell them what the people said. They held these foreign correspondents by their ankles, knees or whatever and begged to have a daughter, a son, or a sister admitted to the hospital. Some even had leprosy and were avoided by others. Others had tuberclosis, in open wound infection and other hudreds of medical problems. The translators heard ``for God sake get us back to our homes, our lands, or, do you see my sister/daughter? She has been repeatedly raped for four days. She`ll die``. But these correspondents were getting bored.
The day the Indian tanks moved in I saw these correspondents standing or just hanging onto the racing tanks. When I met this second senior correspondent of CBC I asked him why did he do that? ``Hey just went for the ride. It was fun``. He was one correspondent whose picture on the news film is the clearest and is worth watching.
And you talk to me of cover stories!
To me it is regretful that even the Pakistanis have swallowed the Indian propaganda and in fact believe that their army did ``all or most`` of the atrocities. They did. Particularly men of middle ranks but only for a while. But their share would be less than 1/3rd of the total. Get in touch with me if you need further sorry, sordid and the gory details of what the Indians did.
N.B. Do please see a post or two on the ``He Had NO Choice``, written by a contributor whose family`s women were dragged in the streets raped, disfigured and killed by the INDIAN mukti bahni.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Re:#258,264,266,269The following was left out of #289
Shankar Shah Ji:
Aap sirf silly hi nahaiN, aap uncivil aur discourteous bhi haiN. Rationality and courtesy are essential qualities in a human being. Inculcate them. Learn them.
I wrote a civil letter and you respond that, ``I
cant[sic] believe how ubelievably ignorant you are ... .]. Forget about courtesy, your English
composition also seems to be weak! You ``believe`` how ``unbelievably... .`` By all means take a course in English for immigrants, or English as a second language.
So, ``They were COVER STORIES in both TIME &
NEWSWEEK magazines!`` Oh, were they now! Wow! Have they ever come out with COVER STORIES which, later, turned out to be less than 100 percent true? Is TIME the same magazine which DARKENED the picture of a Black on its cover to make it look more `Negro`, knowing that darker blackness increases the prejudice against a person in the U.S.?
Of course, I read the Cover Stories. My God, did you read both the cover stories? Did you have a dictionary handy since they wrote words as ``opportunity``, as in
``India had waited for [such] an opportunity for 25 years to dismember Pakistan... .
Only an internationally defensible pretext had to present itself``.
Arrrey, ``Y`k na shudd, do shudd.`` Not only ``opportunity`` but also ``pretext``. How did you cope with that situation?
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Addendum: The number of Indian homeless and food (langar) seekers in the camps were about half a million. The Indian army would stop tens of thousands of more ``Calcutta refugees`` daily from entering the area. Because of lack of supplies they feared riots. Five riots in all had taken place.
There was no `boundry` between East Pakistan and Indian army encampments and the refugee camps. Among the scores of foreign correspondents two Canadian Broadcasting Corporation`s (CBC) correspondents, that I know, were there. One, the senior one, came and went, but stayed after the ``fall of Dhakka``. He explained his hatred towards Pakistan as a result of his experience in Chekoslovakia in the 1960s. I think he is still the Chief Foreign correspondent of CBC. The other one was also a senior correspondent of the corporation and stayed there for over a month. All of them wanted some ``action`` soon since they had been primed with the beautiful brochures, daily briefings and the pitiable lot of the refugees. Not a single word of these ``refugees`` was ever translated to tell them what the people said. They held these foreign correspondents by their ankles, knees or whatever and begged to have a daughter, a son, or a sister admitted to the hospital. Some even had leprosy and were avoided by others. Others had tuberclosis, in open wound infection and other hudreds of medical problems. The translators heard ``for God sake get us back to our homes, our lands, or, do you see my sister/daughter? She has been repeatedly raped for four days. She`ll die``. But these correspondents were getting bored.
The day the Indian tanks moved in I saw these correspondents standing or just hanging onto the racing tanks. When I met this second senior correspondent of CBC I asked him why did he do that? ``Hey just went for the ride. It was fun``. He was one correspondent whose picture on the news film is the clearest and is worth watching.
And you talk to me of cover stories!
To me it is regretful that even the Pakistanis have swallowed the Indian propaganda and in fact believe that their army did ``all or most`` of the atrocities. They did. Particularly men of middle ranks but only for a while. But their share would be less than 1/3rd of the total. Get in touch with me if you need further sorry, sordid and the gory details of what the Indians did.
N.B. Do please see a post or two on the ``He Had NO Choice``, written by a contributor whose family`s women were dragged in the streets raped, disfigured and killed by the INDIAN mukti bahni.
In the Supreme National Interest
1. The `rich` Arab states become rich only beginning in 1975 after the 1973 Ramadan war and the establishment of the OPEC. Prior to that Saudi Arabia, for instance, was getting $2.00 a barrel! Its major source of revenue was the Hadjj pilgrims!
2. Nor did the Pakistanis start getting jobs and sending remittances back home till 1975; (at their height these amounted to $ 2 billion; remember Campbell`s Chicken Noodle Soup sales in 1997? Two billion dollars!)
3. Nixon did say some words /for/Pakistani consumption. But didn`t order the movement of the American Fleet till two days before the fall of Dhakka. Nor did they send any arms to Pakistan, the way Russia did for India in 1965. Almost a plane an hour. [As Russia did, again, in 1967 in Egypt. They had perfected the logistics in 1965 in India. In 1968, the Hindustan Times reported the number of those low level bombers given to India, as 250, give or take a dozen, since I do not remember the EXACT number. Most probably it were within 235 and 255.]
The U.S. imposed arms embargo against Pakistan. To be honest, they imposed the embargo against India too. Go figure!
The U.S. knew the whole situation of Pakistan in 1971 in an island of hostility.
They also knew:
i) That India`s participation as the supplier of Mukti Bahini from its regular armed forces and volunteers(read volunteers + mercenaries) was dangerous for Pakistan.
ii) That the number and burden of `refugees` in India from Bangladesh was neither horrendous, nor heavy enough to cripple India`s economy, especially when one factors into the situation, as the foreign correspondents whisperingly, but openly, indicated that these ``refugee Camps` included a large number of the homeless, the hungry in-need-of-two-semi-square-meals Indian population of local areas including a large number from Calcutta City.
The U.S. could have averted, for Pakistan, if not, indeed, for India also, the invasion of `East Pakistan`, by India.
They knew the `refugee` drama. They could have helped out India, pressured Pakistan &/or sent aid there to effectively seal borders /against/ the infiltrators from India and provide humanitarian aid for the displaced in East Pakistan. I am amazed at those Pakistanis who have swallowed the Indian line, with the proverbial `hook, and sinker`. Close your eyes, try to visualize the average Pakistani foot soldier. Think hard. Can you even imagine them in hundreds and thousands committing rape? I can`t. I have lived among them for too long, I guess. May be Umairr and Rjanjua can correct me on this perception.
Or, the U.S. could have reminded India that their /multiple/ publications on art-paper, with five-color printing, distributed to 9/10ths of Europe and North America, and to 1/4th of African, South American and Asian populations, cost India more funds than what it cost it to feed the refugees.
I think the ylh post is a thought provoking analysis which can be expanded, added to, critically looked at and perhaps mad to generate rational self-critical analyses for future policies.
Shahzad C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Shankar #2571. The `rich` Arab states become rich only beginning in 1975 after the 1973 Ramadan war and the establishment of the OPEC. Prior to that Saudi Arabia, for instance, was getting $2.00 a barrel! Its major source of revenue was the Hadjj pilgrims!
2. Nor did the Pakistanis start getting jobs and sending remittances back home till 1975; (at their height these amounted to $ 2 billion; remember Campbell`s Chicken Noodle Soup sales in 1997? Two billion dollars!)
3. Nixon did say some words /for/Pakistani consumption. But didn`t order the movement of the American Fleet till two days before the fall of Dhakka. Nor did they send any arms to Pakistan, the way Russia did for India in 1965. Almost a plane an hour. [As Russia did, again, in 1967 in Egypt. They had perfected the logistics in 1965 in India. In 1968, the Hindustan Times reported the number of those low level bombers given to India, as 250, give or take a dozen, since I do not remember the EXACT number. Most probably it were within 235 and 255.]
The U.S. imposed arms embargo against Pakistan. To be honest, they imposed the embargo against India too. Go figure!
The U.S. knew the whole situation of Pakistan in 1971 in an island of hostility.
They also knew:
i) That India`s participation as the supplier of Mukti Bahini from its regular armed forces and volunteers(read volunteers + mercenaries) was dangerous for Pakistan.
ii) That the number and burden of `refugees` in India from Bangladesh was neither horrendous, nor heavy enough to cripple India`s economy, especially when one factors into the situation, as the foreign correspondents whisperingly, but openly, indicated that these ``refugee Camps` included a large number of the homeless, the hungry in-need-of-two-semi-square-meals Indian population of local areas including a large number from Calcutta City.
The U.S. could have averted, for Pakistan, if not, indeed, for India also, the invasion of `East Pakistan`, by India.
They knew the `refugee` drama. They could have helped out India, pressured Pakistan &/or sent aid there to effectively seal borders /against/ the infiltrators from India and provide humanitarian aid for the displaced in East Pakistan. I am amazed at those Pakistanis who have swallowed the Indian line, with the proverbial `hook, and sinker`. Close your eyes, try to visualize the average Pakistani foot soldier. Think hard. Can you even imagine them in hundreds and thousands committing rape? I can`t. I have lived among them for too long, I guess. May be Umairr and Rjanjua can correct me on this perception.
Or, the U.S. could have reminded India that their /multiple/ publications on art-paper, with five-color printing, distributed to 9/10ths of Europe and North America, and to 1/4th of African, South American and Asian populations, cost India more funds than what it cost it to feed the refugees.
I think the ylh post is a thought provoking analysis which can be expanded, added to, critically looked at and perhaps mad to generate rational self-critical analyses for future policies.
Shahzad C
In the Supreme National Interest
ylh #97
I appealed for help (#98) on the same points (discussed in (H.H.N.C
#1162-64) you raise in your post (#97). He says that India controls Kashmir and I can`t do my squat in his/a diddly etc. I am a new comer to this culture and do not understand proverbial, literal, ideological, figure of speech ,ie.,
figurative, and other meaning differentiantials in meanings. Therefore, the request for help.
Either on this board or another, Fuzair -- to the best of my knowledge -- talked about the role of the Mukti Bahni in the in East Pakistan. That
situation was discudded on one of Chowk`s sites and talked about the plunder, rape, and women`s body mutilations, and narry a peep was heard from the Indian ``liberators`` of BanglaDesh. Luckily the bungladeshis turned out to be too sharp for India to be controled and their unwillingness
to kow tow to India in any way. They let India know about it pretty soon after the ``liberation``.
In any case, I need help. See if you can help. If not, I`ll take care of it.
Pakistanis, please stick to your goal, focus, and nasb-ulain. We, the Pakistanis, at this time should have been doing all this ``posting`` to the
American House members, to the American Foreign office, to the American embassy in Pakistan -- ``from around the world``, and to their missions in
whatever country the Pakistanis are located, putting pressure on the Americans re. Clinon`s proposed visit of South Asia. You may have read, in today`s paper, about China`s rather open warning, to the White House, re. Indo-Pakistani siuation on Clinton`s visit to Pakistan, the one that is, now on, now off. They have made their position quite clear to the U.S.
First, Clinton had better visit Pakistan alongwith India. And, second, they will not allow India to carry on further nuclear testing, nor a `user`` of the Bomb.
China has admonished Clinton to be more `even` handed in the case of India and Pakistan. China alone should the sole superpower of the region. The message was sent directly to the White House!
For Pakistanis now, to come back to the point at hand above: if any changes in the South Asia itinerary of that man come about because of China`s ``pressure`` on the U.S., then, chances are that either America and China are in cahoots, to enable America to save its face, with Clinton`s
trade-with-China agenda helped in the process and salvaged in the Congress. Or, Pakistan is manouvering to get the tacit acceptance of the
army junta`s rule by Amrica. Othher scenarios come to mind but these two should suffice for tonight. Or, finally, the cigar-in-the-slit President may have Pakistan`s gratitude for future purposes in mind.
Fine, so far. But why shouldn`t these pressures not come from the Pakistani expats or the Pakistanis in Pakistanis? Or, at the very least, from them too, in addition to the official governmental sources, as a potent force? I shall
hazard a guess. As ``Jay`` said, some days ago it is enough for him to make a dunce`s cap, figuratively speaking, from a page of a Pakistani newspaper, show up at the Chowk, leave his dunce`s cap there and leave. Then lets all the Pakistanis --from the brain surgeons to space scientists -- figure out what was in it? The Pakistanis will spend the day ironing out the paper straightening it and sending posts by the dozen to the Chowk; while, I think, Jay is sending e.mails to all the local lmissions of Americans as an American in Paris, in Copen Hagen, in Rome, in Finland, in Kazakistan, in Egypt, Sweden and a hundred other places. I just mentioned one scenario. There are probably many more. All this becausethe Pakistanis are made busy in opening up the Dunce`s cap, straightening out its fold, even ironing
it out and trying to make some sense out of all this? Busy, busy, busy, saving the asmat of Pakistan, while he, and hundreds of thousands of his compatriots are busy tearing the Pakistan`s asmat and azmat in a million different pieces. [ Why do we not remember that all Senators have a
common fax number in the Capitol from which their messages are distributed to them(mentioned in that or another post). Similarly, the White House has a fax number. If I, sitting in Pakistan, can get that kind of information from a neighbourhood Public Library (Information desk, Reference) over the phone, and names of ALL the American Senators and Congressmen (and of one other neighbouring country) for a payment of = $2.40, why can`t you?] Do you know why? We can do only talking,
that`s why.
On any of these column/essay sites, have the Pakistanis ever mentioned a concrete PLAN to work out and to follow it?
I am done now. Do get off the Col.`s back. Come up with a plan of your own and don`t just declare it better than the Col.`s. Prove it, logically. You can do that whether you are a literal couch potato or have your keester hanging in an easy chair/sofa, a glass of old fashion or highball in your hand and your mind crying over the misery of the oppressed, the poor, the third world, the women, the child labour, etc., etc. As George Bernard Shaw said, ``If I must be miserable, I might as well be miserable in comfort!`` (Somebody quoted him on this site.) Quit making
holes in a plan. It is too easy to give you brownie points. Come up with one of your own.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
ylh #97
I appealed for help (#98) on the same points (discussed in (H.H.N.C
#1162-64) you raise in your post (#97). He says that India controls Kashmir and I can`t do my squat in his/a diddly etc. I am a new comer to this culture and do not understand proverbial, literal, ideological, figure of speech ,ie.,
figurative, and other meaning differentiantials in meanings. Therefore, the request for help.
Either on this board or another, Fuzair -- to the best of my knowledge -- talked about the role of the Mukti Bahni in the in East Pakistan. That
situation was discudded on one of Chowk`s sites and talked about the plunder, rape, and women`s body mutilations, and narry a peep was heard from the Indian ``liberators`` of BanglaDesh. Luckily the bungladeshis turned out to be too sharp for India to be controled and their unwillingness
to kow tow to India in any way. They let India know about it pretty soon after the ``liberation``.
In any case, I need help. See if you can help. If not, I`ll take care of it.
Pakistanis, please stick to your goal, focus, and nasb-ulain. We, the Pakistanis, at this time should have been doing all this ``posting`` to the
American House members, to the American Foreign office, to the American embassy in Pakistan -- ``from around the world``, and to their missions in
whatever country the Pakistanis are located, putting pressure on the Americans re. Clinon`s proposed visit of South Asia. You may have read, in today`s paper, about China`s rather open warning, to the White House, re. Indo-Pakistani siuation on Clinton`s visit to Pakistan, the one that is, now on, now off. They have made their position quite clear to the U.S.
First, Clinton had better visit Pakistan alongwith India. And, second, they will not allow India to carry on further nuclear testing, nor a `user`` of the Bomb.
China has admonished Clinton to be more `even` handed in the case of India and Pakistan. China alone should the sole superpower of the region. The message was sent directly to the White House!
For Pakistanis now, to come back to the point at hand above: if any changes in the South Asia itinerary of that man come about because of China`s ``pressure`` on the U.S., then, chances are that either America and China are in cahoots, to enable America to save its face, with Clinton`s
trade-with-China agenda helped in the process and salvaged in the Congress. Or, Pakistan is manouvering to get the tacit acceptance of the
army junta`s rule by Amrica. Othher scenarios come to mind but these two should suffice for tonight. Or, finally, the cigar-in-the-slit President may have Pakistan`s gratitude for future purposes in mind.
Fine, so far. But why shouldn`t these pressures not come from the Pakistani expats or the Pakistanis in Pakistanis? Or, at the very least, from them too, in addition to the official governmental sources, as a potent force? I shall
hazard a guess. As ``Jay`` said, some days ago it is enough for him to make a dunce`s cap, figuratively speaking, from a page of a Pakistani newspaper, show up at the Chowk, leave his dunce`s cap there and leave. Then lets all the Pakistanis --from the brain surgeons to space scientists -- figure out what was in it? The Pakistanis will spend the day ironing out the paper straightening it and sending posts by the dozen to the Chowk; while, I think, Jay is sending e.mails to all the local lmissions of Americans as an American in Paris, in Copen Hagen, in Rome, in Finland, in Kazakistan, in Egypt, Sweden and a hundred other places. I just mentioned one scenario. There are probably many more. All this becausethe Pakistanis are made busy in opening up the Dunce`s cap, straightening out its fold, even ironing
it out and trying to make some sense out of all this? Busy, busy, busy, saving the asmat of Pakistan, while he, and hundreds of thousands of his compatriots are busy tearing the Pakistan`s asmat and azmat in a million different pieces. [ Why do we not remember that all Senators have a
common fax number in the Capitol from which their messages are distributed to them(mentioned in that or another post). Similarly, the White House has a fax number. If I, sitting in Pakistan, can get that kind of information from a neighbourhood Public Library (Information desk, Reference) over the phone, and names of ALL the American Senators and Congressmen (and of one other neighbouring country) for a payment of = $2.40, why can`t you?] Do you know why? We can do only talking,
that`s why.
On any of these column/essay sites, have the Pakistanis ever mentioned a concrete PLAN to work out and to follow it?
I am done now. Do get off the Col.`s back. Come up with a plan of your own and don`t just declare it better than the Col.`s. Prove it, logically. You can do that whether you are a literal couch potato or have your keester hanging in an easy chair/sofa, a glass of old fashion or highball in your hand and your mind crying over the misery of the oppressed, the poor, the third world, the women, the child labour, etc., etc. As George Bernard Shaw said, ``If I must be miserable, I might as well be miserable in comfort!`` (Somebody quoted him on this site.) Quit making
holes in a plan. It is too easy to give you brownie points. Come up with one of your own.
In the Supreme National Interest
Very good ``description``, so close to reality that it almost vies with Orson Wells` ``War of the Worlds``, such pertau of reality!
There were only two omissions:
1. You forgot to record the attention to handlebar at 9:35 PM. (Now, where did you learn this expression. Nobody maintains that style of moustache in Pakistan. I have seen that style in abundance in India though[started in Ratlam, as you, no doubt, know] but nobody refers to it as handlebars.)
2. 10:35 PM. Mr Gup`gup`gupangKafir Khan wakes up. And finds himself neither in the U.S.A., nor in Rawalpindi, but in the same old stinking kothrri in Gurrgaon which is his ancestral ``house``.
Too bad. The story ends.
SHAH ZAD C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Sub bolo ``Gup gup gu`kafir Khan`` ki.............. .... ... .......... JaiVery good ``description``, so close to reality that it almost vies with Orson Wells` ``War of the Worlds``, such pertau of reality!
There were only two omissions:
1. You forgot to record the attention to handlebar at 9:35 PM. (Now, where did you learn this expression. Nobody maintains that style of moustache in Pakistan. I have seen that style in abundance in India though[started in Ratlam, as you, no doubt, know] but nobody refers to it as handlebars.)
2. 10:35 PM. Mr Gup`gup`gupangKafir Khan wakes up. And finds himself neither in the U.S.A., nor in Rawalpindi, but in the same old stinking kothrri in Gurrgaon which is his ancestral ``house``.
Too bad. The story ends.
SHAH ZAD C
In the Supreme National Interest
I must apologize that I have not been able to write a post addressing myself to your position paper.
I was afraid that what has happened will happen. Firstly, the qoum with any brains is very upset with the army`s invasion and occupation of the nation for the nth time. They are, in the main, mad at anything fauji. So don`t mind the early responses. Some of them were sort of knee jerk reactions. Nothing more. Very natural.
Secondly, with Islam`s stone-age erruption in Pakistan, has disturbed many thinking people; on top of that rational people have reached a point of surfeit with the dosage and frequency of Islamic medicine, and wish a reduction in its being considered a panacea. An Islamic ``Amrit Dhara``, sort of. So, even on that score there may be knee jerk reactions.
Thirdly, these days the C.P. Snow`s ``Two Cultures`` notion seems to emerged in bold relief when it comes to ``army`` and ``the civil`` cultures. (To know Snow`s work or about Amrit Dhara, you have to be at least 65. If you are younger, go ask abba jan.)
One could go on and on in this vein but it would be futile to find the root of our orientations and bends of the mind these days. These matters belong to the ``regions of the mind``. And need more profound (gambheer, if you are hooked on the Indian movies!)analyses. We shall do that, inshaAllah.
I have so far read only a few paragraphs of your essay, (I have been exceedingly busy lately), and find that I both agree and disagree with you. At least I haven`t failed to find valuable ideas to warrant its dismissal out of hand.
I intend to send a post in a day or two. Promise that you postpone your request to withdraw till that time.
I do feel that you have a few points (to the point I have read your essay) worth serious discussion.
With most brotherly sentiments,
Shahzad C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Dear Col. Rehman:I must apologize that I have not been able to write a post addressing myself to your position paper.
I was afraid that what has happened will happen. Firstly, the qoum with any brains is very upset with the army`s invasion and occupation of the nation for the nth time. They are, in the main, mad at anything fauji. So don`t mind the early responses. Some of them were sort of knee jerk reactions. Nothing more. Very natural.
Secondly, with Islam`s stone-age erruption in Pakistan, has disturbed many thinking people; on top of that rational people have reached a point of surfeit with the dosage and frequency of Islamic medicine, and wish a reduction in its being considered a panacea. An Islamic ``Amrit Dhara``, sort of. So, even on that score there may be knee jerk reactions.
Thirdly, these days the C.P. Snow`s ``Two Cultures`` notion seems to emerged in bold relief when it comes to ``army`` and ``the civil`` cultures. (To know Snow`s work or about Amrit Dhara, you have to be at least 65. If you are younger, go ask abba jan.)
One could go on and on in this vein but it would be futile to find the root of our orientations and bends of the mind these days. These matters belong to the ``regions of the mind``. And need more profound (gambheer, if you are hooked on the Indian movies!)analyses. We shall do that, inshaAllah.
I have so far read only a few paragraphs of your essay, (I have been exceedingly busy lately), and find that I both agree and disagree with you. At least I haven`t failed to find valuable ideas to warrant its dismissal out of hand.
I intend to send a post in a day or two. Promise that you postpone your request to withdraw till that time.
I do feel that you have a few points (to the point I have read your essay) worth serious discussion.
With most brotherly sentiments,
Shahzad C
Pakistan: A Failed State?
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the, ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of him`` myself, but I am afraid that I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me. Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the, ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of him`` myself, but I am afraid that I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me. Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
Pakistan: A Failed State?
What are you trying to say? Think, then recall your English, Then write. What //are// you saying?
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Kalicharan #26What are you trying to say? Think, then recall your English, Then write. What //are// you saying?
Buffalo
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me. Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me. Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
Unquestionable Changes?
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that in doing so, I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me.
Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
To Whom it may Concern
I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that in doing so, I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me.
Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.
Sincerely,
Shahzad C
International Monetary Fund (IMF) __ Friend or Foe?
You //were// given an answer about Goa in #1163. I want everything that was not given to India by the British when they left, Hea`?
So the French left peacefully/peaceably! Otherwise you would have `invaded` the s.it out of them too?
Not only all those `possessions`, I told you I want us to have Ferozepur and Gurdaspur challenged and put on the table too. And get that Batten Chore`s perfidy corrected. You just hold your breath.
Seems to me that India has some very misplaced self confidence. By all means read y2k`s post in Pakistan at 3000. Read it now. All of you bullys.
So, for convenience sake Bengalis call everybody who is non-Bengali, ``Hindustanis`` ; the same way Whites called a whole humanity ``niggahs``? Don`t for ever be a kindergarten fail pest. Quit it.
Talk about IMF on this board.
Bye Bye. I shan`t respond to you in future.
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Gym #138You //were// given an answer about Goa in #1163. I want everything that was not given to India by the British when they left, Hea`?
So the French left peacefully/peaceably! Otherwise you would have `invaded` the s.it out of them too?
Not only all those `possessions`, I told you I want us to have Ferozepur and Gurdaspur challenged and put on the table too. And get that Batten Chore`s perfidy corrected. You just hold your breath.
Seems to me that India has some very misplaced self confidence. By all means read y2k`s post in Pakistan at 3000. Read it now. All of you bullys.
So, for convenience sake Bengalis call everybody who is non-Bengali, ``Hindustanis`` ; the same way Whites called a whole humanity ``niggahs``? Don`t for ever be a kindergarten fail pest. Quit it.
Talk about IMF on this board.
Bye Bye. I shan`t respond to you in future.
International Monetary Fund (IMF) __ Friend or Foe?
Layman #136
Layman my man, all nerves on the Chowk are raw and frayed. After all, some one of your raw nerve must also have been touched by me &/or Yahmla Jat that you wrote your post, now, which one was it #133?
Any way, let`s talk about the IMF. But first we must get the following out of our way.
The following is from # 1164 from nanga 420 (GYMNO sophist)
[Yeah, there was an agreement by Nehru to hold a plebiscite once normalcy was restored. Indians have managed to successfully weasel out of that commitment and you guys can`t do diddly squat about it.]
The response implies, in the context of what was being said, that an ``individual`` by the name of Nehru agreed....
Normalcy never was achieved since [among other things] India had its army fighting, [controlling, and killing the Kashmiris].
You can easily see his miserably pitiable condition that he had run out of arguments, and was merely taunting like a kindergarten failure.
1. I think I had taken care of this specious, misleading, and fallacious reasoner in # 1163. Period. He picked up three or four points in response [remember, the responses in #1163 were ALL TO HIS QUESTIONS]. He couldn`t answer none and as a taunt repeated three or four cloaked as rebutal of a childlike nature.
2. Of course he knows history of Bengal, and its neighbours. He is a nationalist Bengali. Even such a broadminded historian as Nirad Chaudhuri [``Thy Hand, Great Anarch: India 1921-52``. London, Hogarth:1992]``, refers to all non-Bengalis, as
``Hindustanis``.
3. Have you seen a single reference in his writings, ever, to any other historical fact
which could be called ``Hindustani``, other than the parrorated items like Kashmir was divided on such & such basis. The Gutaawa you get from the newspapers!
Posted by
Shahzad C
Nov 30, 1999 12:00 am
Layman #136
Layman my man, all nerves on the Chowk are raw and frayed. After all, some one of your raw nerve must also have been touched by me &/or Yahmla Jat that you wrote your post, now, which one was it #133?
Any way, let`s talk about the IMF. But first we must get the following out of our way.
The following is from # 1164 from nanga 420 (GYMNO sophist)
[Yeah, there was an agreement by Nehru to hold a plebiscite once normalcy was restored. Indians have managed to successfully weasel out of that commitment and you guys can`t do diddly squat about it.]
The response implies, in the context of what was being said, that an ``individual`` by the name of Nehru agreed....
Normalcy never was achieved since [among other things] India had its army fighting, [controlling, and killing the Kashmiris].
You can easily see his miserably pitiable condition that he had run out of arguments, and was merely taunting like a kindergarten failure.
1. I think I had taken care of this specious, misleading, and fallacious reasoner in # 1163. Period. He picked up three or four points in response [remember, the responses in #1163 were ALL TO HIS QUESTIONS]. He couldn`t answer none and as a taunt repeated three or four cloaked as rebutal of a childlike nature.
2. Of course he knows history of Bengal, and its neighbours. He is a nationalist Bengali. Even such a broadminded historian as Nirad Chaudhuri [``Thy Hand, Great Anarch: India 1921-52``. London, Hogarth:1992]``, refers to all non-Bengalis, as
``Hindustanis``.
3. Have you seen a single reference in his writings, ever, to any other historical fact
which could be called ``Hindustani``, other than the parrorated items like Kashmir was divided on such & such basis. The Gutaawa you get from the newspapers!
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