Dissing Ideologies How can you be armed and claim that everyone agrees with you?

Everyone is just scared to death. We all have just one life to

live to throw it away callously. Call us cowards but lot of us would

rather be a cowards and live.

You are a true leader when people follow you despite the threat to

their lives not because of the threat. If I am a kashmiri i would

be scared shitless to work for any govt organization, go to a movie,

go to a bar, vote or do any of the things that might make me look

unsympathetic to the militants. And the miltants claim that they

have popular support. They have popular support under duress not

of free volition.

The way to prove popular support is to get

involved in election process which is the only civilized way. And

please dont equate the armed forces of govt with the terrorists.

We have democratic ways to control the govt and the armed forces

through them. It is important to have the process. Just becuase they

dont work perfectly the first time is not reason to throw the process

away. Then you are not giving it time to mature and improve with checks

and balances.

Terrorists are basically mentally deranged maniacs who revel in violence.

They would be misfits in a civilized society where only intelligence

and rationality succeed. They want to take the sociery back to the wild

past when might was right. We should basically recognize these animals

for what they are and use our wits against them to incarcerate and kill

them. Time to develop more smart bombs. Or create a jurrassic park kind

of island where terrorist from all over the world can be exiled to.

We can observe them remotely to advance our behavior science. It will be

interesting to see what kind of behavior emerges. I am willing to bet

that sucidal bombing wont be as popular among them.

Kashmir Fatigue

I think it is quite reasonable to make the observation that Islam is more of a political ideology than some kind of spiritual quest like

true religions are meant to be. If the above assumption is valid, isnt it the right of governments not to take in any muslims if their ideology is incompatible with their own? Like the US used to ask during cold war if the potential immigrants were communists, the new question would be if they were Muslims. I think it is in the interest of nations to curb any ideology which thinks it is above these boundaries.

Is Ummah the new communist block?

No Fault Of Mine Hi Chowkers,

I was on chowk briefly for a month more than a year ago after the kargil, when I advocated

a total boycott of all Pakis in US by indians. I was worried as long as there is

no direct cost to them, the Pakistanis here will have a soft corner for their

government`s anti Indian stance even if they believe that such policies of fighting

with a bigger country will tax the country`s economy, impoverishing and talibanizing

the country`s population. People somehow derive perverse pleasure on others

misery. But if they are in the same miserable situation they act totally differently.

The cost to the expatriot pakis is not direct. They still get their paychecks

and still live comfortably. If people lose jobs or dont get jobs because of their governements

policies they will act differently. I know quite a few Pakis who will lose millions if they dont have

access to Indian professionals and consumers. They will have ways to quickly pressurize Islamabad

govt and make them pro India so that they can profit off the wealthy and smart, ever growing

overseas Indian population.

When I wrote that a year back I was rebuffed by Sadna who gave very cogent

arguments against such behavior. I was discouraged and left chowk. I just started reading chowk again

recently to see what people are saying about the summit and was surprised to see Sadna the target of

paki disdain. I remember her being one of the most articulate, logical and fair persons

i ever came across in my brief interactions at that time. And she was supporting Pakis

to the hilt becauase of her sense of fair play and because she feels for the oppressed.

I think for pakis her thinking maybe too abstract. Maybe she should come down to the paki

level and link all concepts to some thing in Quran. That is the only the pakis understand

anything it seems. I have high respect for Sadna`s thinking and would like to ask her

a question: Do you think differently on the issue of non cooperation with pakis all over

the world by Indians?

regards

vsn

Hidden Hindus I am sure that some muslims in India, especially in Kashmir, feel suffocated

the same way as the hindus in Pakistan. Why cant we have a voluntary excahnge

of such people? There should be a ministry for religious repatriation in each

country. Allthe religious minorites who feel oppressed can sell their belongings either in the open market or to the govt and move to their preferred country.

This can mean a new, fulfilling life for millions of people in the subcontinent

who are trapped in a uncaring society for no fault of theirs. It might even reduce

hostilities in Kashmir and elsewhere.

The other alternative of carving your own kingdom from big countries like

India and Pakistan wont work. It is just too futile and people are wasting their precious lives trying it. Assuming that they achieve it somehow, the job is not

still done. To have better life standard than before, it has to be managed well. People who are good fighting for their own country may not be good at managing it.

One need to only look at Pakistan as proof of that:)

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan sadna #261

You are comparing apples with oranges. We are talking about citizens

of warring countries in a neutral country. Don’t you expect discrimination among

them? Obviously they only place they can meet is on neutral ground, not

in each others countries. It is natural that they wont be in a very

cooperative mood. It is a natural consequence of wars. There is a

a lot of pain that comes with the territory.

As long as you obey the laws of the land, do you have a moral obligation

to cooperate or help people who have a direct connection to our enemy country.

There are lots of economic activities, which require cooperation between

people beside employment. What about doing business with Pakistanis? Can’t I spend

my dollars wherever I like? Do I have to fund Pakistani companies? Would people

come and sue me if I do not give 10Million dollars to a Pakistani even though his

idea is better than some XYZ company`s idea? I would like to fight that case:)

I concede that my not hiring a Pakistani is a little on sleazy side even

though it is for my own company and not for anyone else. But in reality

I lose more than he does, by not hiring him. The programmers

are in driver seat everywhere.

If Pakistanis count on the superior morality of Indians in saving them

from their retaliation all over the world they may be half right.The other

half suffer from moral apathy:) But there is a limit for everything.

Do we care half as much about as poor innocent lives lost everyday in Kashmir as we

argue about the finer points of law ensuring that there be no small

discomfort to a Pakistani exptraite`s luxurious life style in US? By not

taking a moral stance on issues we are only showing apathy. And are we morally

right in demanding rights from people to whom we deny the same right?

When the threshold is reached Pakistanis may not be able to stop the wave of resentment and will lose a lot economically. To preempt that educated Pakistanis should actively dissociate themselves from the military govt, lobby for democracy,

lobby for secularism and bring about pro Indian policies in Pakistan. It is

a tall order but future prosperity depends on it.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan Assad_K #220

I have confidence in the pakistanis in US. They are great at what they do - heck

if not for their govt screwing up things I would have used them and made tons

of money. Some of the great sales people I know are paki - Forget whites, they leave

tehm in the dust. All I am asking from them is not do fund raisers or lobby

politically for their govt until their govt minds its business. If things get harder here they

can start raising money for pro indian political parties back home. I am sure

they will come up with lot of ways, being the versatile people they are. You

can do it man - try harder.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan sadhana #217

I am not doing it solely because the numbers favor me. Numbers favor me to discriminate against lot of people you will surely agree. I am doing it

because i want the people sitting in ivory towers to feel the heat and do

something to influence the politics of their country.

Exactly. It is a dishonor, to all the people who worked hard

for equality, to discriminate against innocent people. But dont you

discriminate against dumb people, arrogant people, irresponsible people,

obnoxious people,..etc in one way or the other? If you dont how will

they ever learn to be decent people? That is just an example. I am

not blaming anyone of the above qualities.

Discrimination (vichakshana) is also a byproduct of wisdom.

Be wise who do you do business with. I just wish India is left alone so

that it can improve the quality of life for the 500 million people living

below poverty line. It is a humongous task and on top of it we are

adding population equal to Australia`s every year. Wont you feel happy

if all of them have decent living? Every human should feel sorry for them and

should help in whatever way they can. I dont understand what kind of people

go to war with countries already saddled with such burden of humanity on such scarce resources. I dont like the polocies of such countries and I am trying

my bit to influence them through my peaceful means.

Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isa-ee: A thought Experiment zahra,

you believe a book is word of god. You try to live your life

according to the guidelines prescribed by the book. You are spiritual

person and trying to reach god and ultimately truth. I respect you

for that. You are working for the whole of humanity and any findings

in your quest to reach god will probably benefit everyone.

Now what I don’t understand is why should you build societies

based on this faith, force everyone to follow the rules, invest more time

in converting others than practicing the faith and making sure no one

criticizes the book etc? Is it somehow going to benefit the mankind if everyone

follows the same book? Is it quicker to reach god in groups?

Don’t you have enough freedom in a free society like US to pursue your own spiritual path even if you are the only believer of the book? So why

is this need for others to be like you? Is it insecurity in what

you believe? You find security in numbers?

If you say it is not about God, it is just a version of political philosophy like Marxism, I understand you completely. All the power to you. Use the marriage to expand your group. But what a strange bedfellows it will makeJ

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan It is elementary, srimaan tahmed: #215

Employee-Employer relationship is mutually benificial - both make money

off each other. It is a win-win situation.

When we are dealing with paki applicants we are dealing with a

small pool and the loss of access to that pool is nominal to the

employers. (About 2% of H1B professionals in US are from pakistan where

as almost half of them are from india.). So a paki employer would

suffer more from a lack of access to indian programmers than vice versa.

Similarily when we are talking about access to employers for a job applicant,

loss of access to indian owned or managed companies would be more severe.

(Fully 1/4 of all high tech companies in silicon valley are either owned

by or operated by indians or chinese). And most of the interviews would

also involve peer feedback from future team mates. I will leave that

as an excercise for you to figure out who will benifit from peer feedback.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan sri tahmed #201

-Thank God we shall never fall to your petty level. And thank God there is enough work to go around for those willing to apply themselves that no one needs to work for a creep like you.

This is not a pissing contest between you and me about whois a better creep.

The questions I asked are beyond you and me and are about the surival of

pakistanis and pakistan. I am trying to analyse the behavior of the groups

at macro level and their implications.



-My brother (who heads a successful independant operation in the US) keeps a number of Indian IT types busy in the US and in India writing programs.

Incase you are under any delusion, the indians at your brothers company are

doing him a big favor. In future they may not be willing to work for him at any cost. Did you consider the implications? If indians dont work for him in IT, dont

you think he will be in trouble? I have to ship lot of work offshore to India

as I cant get any people here. And if I have to hire indian programmers, they

ask me my 5 year plan for the company and I have to sell myself to them before

they even consider.

And keep your `holier than thou attitude` personal like you keep your religion.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan OK I am wasting too much time here. People are sidelining the

Issue. I am not racist, petty minded. That is beside the point too.

Everyone agrees that Indians by and large are law-abiding people

when they are outside India. And they are successful and increasingly

becoming influential and powerful as a group. Whether you like it

or not Pakistan’s policies will ferment some kind of resentment

towards Pakistani people in Indians all over the world. They might

chose not to cooperate with you (legally of course, don’t jump on me!).

Why are Pakistanis blind to that? Aren’t you good businessmen? Don’t

you want good opportunities for you and for your kids? Or do you

have the sucidal, self-destructive jihadist mentality too? If I were

the paki physician association I would be lobbying to get Pakistan

change its Kashmir policy, appease India and cooperate with it

in all fields and reap the benefits by touting my Indian ancestry.

You belong to the Indus region as much as we do and you have claim

to the fame of belonging to the same ancient civilization. If I

am a good marketer I would show how I am so similar to the mainstream

Indian - how we come from the same vedic land and develop the ancient

temples and monuments in Pakistan into tourist attractions. It is not

always a question of choosing this ideology or that ideology. We are increasingly

becoming multi-cultural and we chose whatever works for our people.

If today India is all the rage, you tout your Indian qualities. And if

tomorrow Arab culture is popular you tout your affinity towards them.

You don’t have to necessarily put down one for the other. You can embrace

all of them and benefit from all. You can get oil from middle east and

IT from India:) Anyway you get the point - just celebrate the multi

cultural being you are and reap the benefits.

Now my question is since I don’t see the above behavior in Pakistanis in US,

which in my opinion is rational, , is it because they believe Indian

resentment is no big loss for them? I expect to see the same rational behavior

from educated people in Pakistan too. My belief is over time the Indian resentment would marginalize Pakistanis all over the world if they don’t do something

about it just as their country is marginalized by antagonizing India.

Lot of people may think that it won’t affect them - they are sitting far from

the action and may even derive a vicarious pleasure in fermenting more trouble.

Well in this connected world what goes around comes back and you reap

what you sow.

Now please don’t talk nonsense about discrimination, racism, petty mindedness, etc.

Talk about the following points:

1) Will there be resentment?

2) If there is, Will it affect Pakistanis significantly?

3) If it affects the pakis, is it a bearable cost compared to their

Long-term objectives (whatever they are)

4) Even if there is no significant loss due to resentment, are you

foregoing significant benefits because of lack of Indian goodwill?

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan the happy one #195

-You sir, completely missed my point. Which was to point out to VSN that IQ or business acumen does not guarantee the ability to look at the world with tolerance.

dear happy one sir, in my limited interaction on this board, to me it is you that

comes across to be intolerant - makes me wonder if you are really happy one.

Before jumping on anything that utters the word `discriminate` please use your

power of discrimination. Because unlike some low level life forms we know right

from wrong and are able to discriminate based on judgement. Dont jump to

conclusions that because we can exercise our judgement and stay away from

things that are not good for us, we somehow turn into hitlers. According to

your limited reasoning Gandhi would look like a hitler as he advocated

systematic discrimination by not cooperating with the British. All I was

saying was I chose to employ my discriminatory powers to not to cooperate with

paki americans in hopes that they can influence their govt to pursue a

friendlier policy with India. And they can expect that attitude. Indians

were uncomfortable in dealing with even Sikhs in US in 80s when they were asking

for khalistan. Now we are so close to them with no trace of the bad

feeling. My hope is we can be close with pakis too someday, but to make that

happen you have to make some hard choices.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan sac #134

Discussion will be focused on this clown vsn now I guess. Can we please leave him alone? I guess not....sigh of resignation!!!!

I dont understrand Why I am a clown, moron, #$%&,.. etc.? I honestly raised a question. Everyone latched on to my throwing away the resumes from paki professionals.

Resume is only symbolic. There are lot of situations where I can legally not buy

services from pakis. They can be offering software services, products, or may be

seeking to be bought out, or partner etc. There otherways pakis are losing out.

If the relationship between the countries is friendly i am sure lot of indians

would have started software companies in karachi, lahore etc. It is extremely

difficult to get people in India now- and if pakis are not ready they would

have started 100s of NIITs. Now they dont do that. They dont get pakis on H1

to here. They dont send engineers from here back to pakistan to train more etc.

To hire a piddly programmer now and then to conform to policy is no big deal.

Forget the details. The pertinent question is are the pakis willing to bear the cost

of non coperation from a group 10 times bigger than them? If you add up what you are

losing to what you may have gained from cooperation it is huge. But still I dont

see anyone lobbying pakistan to change their indian policy. Maybe when the pain

reaches certain thershold they would start lobbying their govt? The pain can only

increase as the IT gap between Indians and pakis increase.

zahra #135

*The Pakistanis - who are your colleagues, neighbors or acquaintances in West, are not hiding in the trenches of Kargil or Siachen; ready to attack. [Hey, we do not believe in reincarnation. Being in two different places at one time is also not an acceptable notion.]

When did I insinuate that pakis in US are hostile to US Indians? On the otherhand

I alleged that they want to be buddies with us becuase it suits them.

- How do you know that the physicians are sponsoring any `madrassas`?

They hosted a lot of fund raisers in support of kashmiri cause. Madrassas

are indirect benificiaries of kashmiri cause.

- Do you know the meaning of a `madrassa`?

I know that they impart some kind midieval education which fills young minds with

hatred towards infidels.

- Are you under the misconception that if you shove the resumes` in a dustbin, you will deprive the candidate from achieving his/her dreams or desired goals ?

no - but i dont want to be on my concscience that I helped him make pots of money

which may find its way to the madrassas.

- Being Muslims, we believe in two very unique concepts: Qismet and Hikmut!

Hindus have been believing in predestiny and karma for millinea. Dont confuse your

hinduness with muslimness.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan the happyone #120

:And when some moron from India makes a stupid hateful remark...Why do some Pakistani`s have to take pot shots at all Indians and India?? How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture?? The same applies to Indians. When some mouth frothing Paki puts out a call to put all kaffirs to sword.... DONT TAKE POT SHOTS AT PAKISTAN!! Criticize the moron who makes a hateful statement... not his maan, bahen, bhai, prime-minister, clergy, religion, constitution....

I object to that conclusion. I can assure you that I am very intelligent. And my academic record and business success would prove that beyond any doubt. It is all question of bottom line. When businesses are hurting due to some policy of govt they lobby hard to change the govt policies. If All overseas pakis suffer because of their govt policies, they will do the same. And they have the power to change. Only problem is they are too lazy. Unless it affects them they dont. Since most of offshore paki business men depend on Indians to buy, we can effectively boycott and let them lobby for us. As far as the IT is concerrned, we do make lots of money but usually with people you trust. So we voluntarily never team up with pakis, ask for different assignment when pakis are in our team etc. It is all gandhian non-cooperation you see. If they dont see any consequences of antagonizing india, they will be happily pontificating on chowk and sending checks to musharaf. Be a man, own up to your govt. Friendship with indians was your right but you lost it. The more your mad govt screws up things the more distant the overseas indians would become to you. It is our small contribution to make you see reason. We dont know how to use guns nor work up a religious fervor. All we can do is not help you make zillions. A 1000 mile jouney starts with a small step. Maybe we will see you all in homeless shelters writing letters to musharaf to change his policies and forget kashmir:)

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan scout #95

:Hmmm, could I have your real name and the company you work for, or God forbid you own?

God did not forbid. Infact he has been very kind to indians like myself. But am I mad to give my name and my company name on public boards where pakis maybe present? I will be a dead man.

:I know plenty of Pakistani laywers in NY who`d love to get a piece of you, granted you, as you describe yourself, even EXIST.

I thought pakistanis dont care much for the law. Oh sorry that is in pakistan. When they are abroad they want to enjoy full benifit of the law and help their jihadist military maddog spread more anarchy.

:If only the US government knew what the worth of racist desis like you who come here with the letters IT stamped on your forehead was...

US govt made so much money on me it is not even funny. I am not a racist. Pakis are the same race as me. I am just a pragmatist. They dont work well with indians. Maybe when I find an arab software design team I will ask them if they want a paki.

MY responses are being censured in the great mullah tradition of pakistan. If this does not make it too, i give up. All I say is - you cant escape the consequences of your govt actions. By antagonizing 1/6th of humanity you can not live peacefully. To atone for your sins, lobby for democracy in pakistan, lobby to get rid of all madarassas and modernize school system, have a board of experts and agree on common history and drop those funny arab names and have some decent sanskrit names:) hindus dont have anything against islam. if you have sanskrit names they will think that your alla is another avatar of vishnu and will start going to your mosques. If you sit on your fat asses implicitly condoning whatever madmush does, then you deserve what you get. you have BAD KARMA and it will haunt you in this life and the next.

The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan Once again to clarify myself:

If pakis want to be buddies with Indians in US where it suits them

and enmies in south asis where it does not - sorry it does not work that way.

Every action has a consequence and you have to take responsibility for your actions (oryour governments actions). I am yet to see a paki who is critical of his religion or government. Even well educated paki physicians are raising

money for the madarasas but they want all indian physicians to be friendly

to them and help them. And if they dont they are petty minded and prejudiced.

When you give so much grief to India everyday tying our army down, terrorising

our civilians, please be prepared for their wrath all over world. If you cant

take the heat, influence your govt to be friendly to India. When i see sincere

efforts on overseas pakis in this direction i will change. Until that time

i am not helping no damn paki!