India’s Communal Gamble Harimau #189

``Your heroes, the Muslim sultans of Delhi, not only destroyed every single temple in Northern India, they terrorized the priests to such an extent that even in the tiny little temples that Hindus built to practice their faith surreptitiously, there were no pujas according to the scriptures for close to 30 generations.``

``So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel of Islamic thugs.``

We will not let the crimes of the DEAD revisit the LIVING. Get off playing the victim, for chrissakes. Its been a long time since. You arent doing anyone a favour by letting them live in India. Now shoo, go back into the hole you came from.

xxabbu

India’s Communal Gamble Dear Shahid,

Welcome to Chowk, and I hope you would participate fully with the interacts that your article will have generated. I share your anguish about the deteriorating tolerance levels in India, as undoubtaedly other chowkies do. I find myself equally disgusted at the shameless saffron politics going on.

But in your post you make some staggering generalizations, and I must say, display a litle paranoia. The picture of hindu zealots overrunning the nation is hard to digest; it certainly doesnt gel with what I nkow about India and Inidans. I must conclude that you are one of the diminishing breed of what some chowkies have in the past called ``dispossessed Moghuls``. Thankfully most of this breed migrated to Pakistan a while ago, but some continue to remain in India, and continue to view the world through the ``lost glory`` glasses.

The question I want to ask is - where is your sense of balance? For a student of history, really, you show very little perspective. Its the typical victim complex, unable to assume responsibility for ones own situation. Of course I am not implying that the minorities` problems are all of their own making. We definitely have a problem on our hands, as you will certainly agree. Its a multi-faceted problem, and playing the victim and the siege mentality will not go very far in addressing it, IMO.

Its very important that thinking Indians constantly raise the issue, as you have done in your post, but your effort has been undermined by your lack of balance. Its a shame, cos what could have been a long overdue opportunity for stock-taking by Indians, will now stray into point-scoring. This is Chowk you know - it takes only a single opinionated piece of cr@p to throw the whole thing off, and I can see several in your piece.

Regards, xxabbu

PS i didnt know abt the green tile thing. What colour tiles do Pakistanis use? I have green tiles in my bathroon, and the pot is also green. Is that real bad?

Islams Challenge sadna 471

``I still think there are strong mutual dependencies in the overall `jihadi support structure` which will manifest when the US begins to take any overt action in Afghanistan. I hope that a large number of Western journalists go to PoK and talk to members of the Muttahida(?) Jihad Council now and when that happens:)``

Yes, I agreee totally; in fact I`ll go a step further. I used to wonder a while ago what the endgame of this jehadi thrust will be like, ie when will it become untenable or too costly to continue with a proxy war. I think this is it. Tha Pak army`s jehadi thrust, that whole concept of bleeding India in Kashmir has reached the end of its tether. Most Pakis havent grasped it so far, but I think they will soon, once the novelty of being on the right side of civilization wears off. They are bright folks, even in the Paki army, and they will get it. Plausible deniability is simply not on any more, and brazen militancy eg JeM attack in Kashmir runs the risk of international opprobrium as well as radical Indian response. In any case, much of the support structure for terrorist training will soon be gone from Afghanistan.

Mushy is obviously trying real hard to stop things from unravelling. He is sacrificing Taliban to ``save`` Kashmir, at least for now. And I think he is doing a pretty good job of it, if you ask me. But a plan based on faulty premises just cannot work, no matter how good the execution.

Islams Challenge sadna #439

``I hope India refuses to talk any further and seeks the right political moment to go and destroy the training camps in PoK. We have to be willing to do what it takes to defend ourselves, else how we can expect others to believe we can(Pakistan) or expect others to fight our battles for us(the US)?``

I agree with Shammi that directly going about destroying POK training camps might be counter-productive. The camps are low value targets, and the trainees are basically an infinitely replenishable pool. Also, the training camps may just as easily be relocated to other interior parts of Pakistan.

On the other hand, counter-strikes of some form are definitely required, at some convenient political moment, as you put it. Not to cause a meaningful damage to Jihadis or Pakistan, but to demonstrate to Pak leadership and people that a war by proxy can only be carried on for so long without reprecussions, and not more. I think the time has come when the costs of this proxy war become clear to Pakistanis in more direct terms than the general anxiety among Paki liberals of a Jehadi blowback.

As far as modus operandi goes, it might be much better to go for sabotage and planned assassination of gang leaders, perhaps akin to Israeli tactics, sans the gunships and missiles. However, I dont think the Indian agencies are yet ready for such serious cloak-and-dagger stuff. I guess what I am saying is that we should make it clear that its a dirty game two can play. I know this sounds so crass and disgusting, but I honestly think theres a need to queer the pitch just a little. I will personally support such action as long as its highly focussed and targetted at the jehadis, and does not involve grocery bags exploding in crowded marketplaces.

xxabbu

A Medley of Internal Contradictions Ref Indians/Pakis/Muslims in US univs

YLH, why dont you go ahead and post the numbers for scholarship students at your university? As Faruk and Sameer interacts indicate, we should keep out the complex migration demographics from this comparison. The number of scholarships won from US universities should indicate how many people from various communities today make it to the academic top in either country. Knowing your amazing research skills, maybe you can also post such figures from other US universities, hell, all of US?

If I were to guess, I`d say that Indian Muslims will still fall proportionally short compared to other Indians. Perhaps its the kind of degrees they pursue; perhaps its sth more insidious. I know for a fact that muslims from my area tend to prefer medicine to engineering. (fewer schols in med than engg).

regards.

Agra Summit and the Camera Assistant a sure sign this board has reached its end - bhagwan ko pyara ho gaya - when we start having 2 million posts on vajpayee encouraging prostitution. lets give this board a respectful burial and move elsewhere. suggestion to pakis - farzana`s board promises to supply delicious opportunities for India bashing re caste issue.

xxabbu

A Medley of Internal Contradictions YLH # 106

“Indian Muslims make up 14% of India`s population... In my University there are over 1000 Indian International students... why are there only 5 or 6 in the entire school... and atleast 3 of them are Kenyan Indian Muslims. This is a nationwide trend ofcourse... you can check up if you want.”

I think a fairer comparison would be the # of grad students who are pakistanis, indian minorities and other indians. Maybe you should post these numbers here. At my university maybe 10% of Indian grads are minority, whereas I dont know of any Pakistani grad student. This is just my estimate based on my own interactions. I am sure there is a Pakistani grad somewhere on campus that I dont know of.

The reason I think this is fairer is that the # of Pakistanis amongst undergrads seems to be proportionally much higher that Inidan students, of whatever community. There are very few middle class Indians who could afford the high fees of an Ivy League education. Still, I take your point. I think Faruk did a good job explaining, but there is clearly something amiss here that Indians need to address.

regards.

Agra Summit and the Camera Assistant Someone asked why Indians consider Kashmir theirs. I cant think of any reason, other than that by some quirk of fate it landed up on our side. For better or worse, its now part of the country, and has to go by the same rules as all other states. I dont think India is going to let go of any region - Kashmir, NorthEast, whatever - certainly not on the basis of religion. And most certainly not while a gun is pointed to our heads.

Most Indians fail to sympathise with the Kashmiris` cause because they dont see whats so special about them. Sure, they have a unique culture different from the rest, but this is true of many other parts of india. Like Kashmir, other regions have suffered from imperialist congress rule in the past. So while most Indians believe Kashmiris` grievances are real, they think these can be sorted out within the Union. In fact, if the Kashmiris wanted, they could negotiate any autonomy deal at all, short of independence. However, secession based on religion is simply not on. You guys cant imagine how important this sh *t is to us.

I believe this is a fairly typical Indian position.

The Indo-Pak Summit, Kashmir and the Taj Mahal Studebaker Rajasthan Madrasah results :

Nice post - I must confess this came as a surprise to me. This sounds very impressive - how come more people dont know about it? I think news items like this should be published across the mainstream media - not just on Chowk or AFMI.

It is also very encouraging from an educationist point of view - I have always believed that socially and culturally relevant learning (as presumably provided in Madrasahs) must be more effective than standardized learning. Unfortunately, the experience in India has so far not supported this belief. I saw this in action in rural Thailand, where I was a volunteer teacher for a short duration. I kept thinking why is it that a curriculum designed around religious (buddhist) and cultural tradition works in Thailand, but not in India. Hope to hear more such success stories in the future!

Regards.

The Indo-Pak Summit, Kashmir and the Taj Mahal Studebaker,

I have thought a bit about the madressa thing since reading your post. DO you think a bit of credible self-vigilence and standardization of curriculum by concerned muslim authorities will help mitigate the problem? I believe the main factor in all this mistrust and paranoia is that the govt / right wingers dont know what exactly is being taught and by whom. Maybe the Muslim Law Board, or the Waqf boards or respected religious seminaries could take the lead in this regard? Dont know how long this board is gonna go on; feel free to reply on any current board you are visiting, if not this one.

The Indo-Pak Summit, Kashmir and the Taj Mahal Studebaker Madrassa post

Studebaker, thanks for posting that article. I felt more and more sad as I went through it. Like you, I sometimes feel very frustrated on hearing such things. Who are these self appointed zealots to create so much mistrust and paranoia? Its buggered times we live in :( My usual reaction when I hear such things is to blame the blimmin Pakistanis who have exported terrorism and fanaticism to our country and messed up things, both for themselves and for us. But then I think, theres no point blaming anyone else. We must exorcise our own internal demons. For some reason I cant see that happening in a hurry. Man, this is depressing. Do post sth more cheerful sometimes.

Take care.

TiECon 2001 Ref Shashi #54

Shashi,

Very nice post. Straight from the heart :). However, I must sadly conclude that your noble and nuanced words would likely be lost on most people here. Perhaps you are new to Chowk, and dont know the brutal extent of cynicism that runs on either side here. I hope you dont get discouraged by the barbs you are gonna get. Keep those posts coming!

A word of caution - your unitarian thinking might be perceived rightly or wrongly by some people as a challenge to their identity or their national ideology. While most educated Indians implicitly believe in your idea, it cant hurt to emphasise to the other side that this is not ``Greater Bharat`` by other means. I have found that many Pakistanis are inexplicably wary of anything that refers to common heritage or culture. I dont know - maybe I would too, if I was a smaller country surrounded by a huge and culturally assertive neighbour.

Regards, xxabbu

Brahmin and Mullah Re Idolatry

I think this unending discussion on idol worship is the most useless discussion on chowk since the ylh-inspired series on dead historical figures. If you practice idolatry, good on ya. If you dont, good on ya as well. Whats the big deal anyway? Surely noone thinks people ACTUALLY pray to a stone as if it were God now, do they?

Hobbyty

Romila Thapar has a pretty wide list of publications. If I get the time, I will try to single out one of her books most pertinent to our discussion of caste. Will get back to you. Meanwhile if anyone else can suggest a title, pls do so.

Brahmin and Mullah Ref Hobbyty

CASTE SYSTEM

``I charge you and all those who will not reject the caste system, with having institutionalized discrimination, with inhumanly holding in cruel servitude, millions of your co-religionists and fellow humans. Shame on you for even justifying it by trying to explain it.``

You are mainly preaching to the choir buddy. I do not see any Indians in denial abt the caste system. I believe almost all Indians will agree that castism is one of the most heartless and cynical religiuos/social practices anywhere.

If the reason for your outbursts is a genuine feeling that not enough Hindus are talking about this problem or doing sth about it, then pls be assured that this is not the case. Of course there will always be blockheads who will try to justify casteism for their own ends, but fortunately this tribe seems to have utterly lost its voice in the country`s polity. I can say with a lot of confidence that Hindus are already fairly on the way to kicking out this unwelcome feature from their society and religion.

What non-hindus frequently dont realize is that the caste system is not a codified feature of hinduism; in fact nohting is, since there is no Book in hinduism. To be sure, varnas - division of labour - are an integral part of the vedas, but like features in many religions, they are artifacts of the times. As part of an epistimological corpus, the varna is one aspect among many, any or all of which may be chosen or rejected in any combination by the hindu according to his/her inclination.

Of course, this is not how it went in history! Countless Brahminical treatises were written whcih slowly cemented the role of caste as a non-optional part of the belief system. Even so, the institutionalisation of caste was a slow process lasting several hundred years. This process of exegesis and institutionalisation of exploitative norms is common to all religious traditions, in varying degree. I think its quite pointless to argue now whether a particular belief is an integral or original part of a religion. What is far more important is to realise that religions are living, evolving things whcih have been subject to much historical use and abuse by vested interests. So the enlightened thing to do would be to identify the exploitative and/or archaic parts of the liturgy and excise them best one can. I think most Hindus realise this. They do not consider caste system, at least its current pernicious form, as a cornerstone of their religion. If this were not so, why do you think they`d let the govt pass a law banning it? To put in perspective, what will happen if your govt decides to ban, say, the Hajj (just for argument sake)?

Of course, the law is only the first step. Casteism will only stop when everyone is educated and aware of their rights. Pls note that this does not require chucking out the religion itself, but simply to make people aware that caste system is not an acceptable part of it. Hindus are quite fortunate that way - there is no word of God telling them whats what, so its fine to modify beliefs to suit the times.

Of course, it will never be perfect, no matter what. For some reason God decided to reserve that honour for certain Bedouin tribes a while ago.

``There is nowhere to hide! I want the truth about your caste system and it`s relationship with your religion! And I want the truth of the discrimination and degradation this system has brought upon tens of millions of human beings!``

If you really want the truth, why settle at anecdotal evidence or opinion, which is what posters here can give you. There are a number of excellent books on the history, sociology and consequences of the caste system. Check out Romila Thapar in particular.

xxabbu

An Eulogy For The Hawks Nasah,

``The horrible thought is that the Bamiayani destroyer of Babri Masjid, Advani, despite his ``prashchit`` at the dargah of Khawaja Moinnuddin Chisti -- is still an unreformed criminal -- will be next in line.``

Yes, its kinda disconcerting. But I pose to you - would it be the end of the world? Think about the main reason BJP has held onto power - there is only one and it starts with V. Isnt it obvious that for a party like BJP to succeed, it needs to present a moderate, wise, Vajpayee-esque figure as leader? Otherwise it will be deserted by voters as well as prospective coalition partners. Now assuming that Advani and other hawks are more interested in power than ideology - it`d be preposterous for an Indian politician to do otherwise - wouldnt the new leadership necessarily have to conform, ``democratise``?

This is the norming influence I was talking about. Point is, regardless of Advani`s personal convictions, it`d be impossible for him to impose a communal agenda within the govt. Even more pertinently, why would he do it? What does he gain? In contrast to some people, I do not believe him to be a fundamentalist - just a shameless opportunist. He`d do whatever it takes to keep him in power. If it involves reciting the kalima tomorrow, he`ll happily do it.

Nasah, do you seriously think BJP, with or without Vajpayee, has even a remote chance of securing power on a communal agenda? Havent you seen what has been happening quietly in India in the last 10 years or so? In cities and towns, mufussils and villages, the only talk is now development, employment, money, and going one up over the next guy. There is no more of that colossal national insecurity that Advani exploited a decade ago. This time round, when and if Advani goes around asking for votes on the basis of Ram Mandir, peopel are going to have a good laugh. I think BJPians in general, and Advani in particular realize this. You just watch that man - as the elections come nearer, he will mutate into the greatest champion of minority rights. All sweet reasonableness and baby-kissing sugar daddy.

Regards.

An Eulogy For The Hawks Ref SaadPAslam #94

“We, India, are based on the solitary founding principle that religious sensibilities has nothing to do with nationhood”

There seems to be an inherent contradiction between your statement and the ground reality in India at present, i.e. the government itself comprises of a right wing religious party. ``

Yes, you are right. The right-wingers constantly undermine the basis of the Indian Union - unity in diversity - by their very presence. Which is why I think they are the gravest threat India faces today. Insurgencies, rebellions, regional disparity - these can all be fought, removed incrementally. But once Indians lose faith in this raison de etat which binds them together, there can be no hope, not just for Muslims or other minorities, but for India herself.

However, do not think that this is about to happen, or that we are going to let it happen just like that. There are enough thinking Indians, and enough institutional mechanisms, to stop it. Do not presume that everyone, or even a significant portion of people who voted for BJP are communally-minded. Apart from their first ``break``, the BJP has not been able to sustain a communal agenda in elections. Like every other party, they have had to contest on local or national issues affecting peoples` lives. If they have attained a measure of public endorsement, it is because of their performance and superior leadership provided by Vajpayee. Sad as it is, even those who detest their ideology find them more palatable than the fossilised Congress. Hence their continued electoral success is despite, NOT due to their dodgy communal agenda. The day the BJP lets their parivar friends get out of control, people will desert them in droves.

It is my feeling that BJP (and Parivar clowns) are tolerated by the public due to an innate faith in the norming influence of our national institutions. That this faith is not unwarranted has been proven by the record of the BJP-led coalition in power.

What caused the rise of the Parivar in the first place? I believe that the Parivar addressed a definite need for many hindus in the early nineties. Rightly or wrongly, there was a widespread feeling that the Congress in its quest for power had subverted the idea of secularism to the disadvantage of many hindus. Many people hankered after cultural renaissance and pride in their roots which they thought was denied them by asinine leftism of the Congress. In the early years, the BJP capitalized fully on this account. But soon, other people not interested in the ideological baggage started to notice that the BJP might provide a centrist alternative to the hypocritical socialism that Congress offered. This has indeed turned out to be the case. Today, the BJP govt is generally seen as competent, with many redeeming features. It has a dynamic leader, is reformist, forward-looking, internally democratic, and has a generally better sense of federal and constitutional propriety than Congress.

While this is all good, Indians need to watch out for danger signs. While they have ignored certain unpleasant associations kept by BJP for now, theres sth quite unsatisfactory about continuing with this state of affairs indefinitely. And who knows what`ll happen after Vajpayee exits and Advani and clowns like Joshi take centrestage. The BJP needs to be kept on a continuous notice of good behaviour.

Regards.