The Beast and I re: godot

can i sing along??

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you probably think this song is about you
dont you dont you

there are clouds in my coffee
clouds in my coffee
...and you`re so vain...

Carly Simon

Square Pegs in Round Holes #16 Urstruly!

I didnt think of the questions--so was quite impressed with them. Quality of questions leads to quality debates.

Call to Action for Oil Spill eco.tourism@comsats.net.pk

rabkhi@khi.paknet.com.pk (NAB, Karachi)

Square Pegs in Round Holes Manto:

excellent questions. Look forward to the reply.

nasah:

well said.

Who is This Mysterious ChowkStaff ? temporal:

this is overwhelming-I am stunned at the inspiration and your word smithing ability. wow.

thank you very much for all the faith and affection. As Ginni said, we arent dead yet, and feel humbled at your generosity. Inshallah we will have the inspiration and energy to make this poem true.

regards and thank you for the past 6 years.

Saima

Transfer of Power from the British Raj & The South Asian Politicians There is one thing that comes across on Chowk quite strongly. That a large section of the populace wants liberty, freedom and tolerance in Pakistan. They do not want to be modelled along the lines of China or any one of these highly productive, highly authoritarian countries. Over and over we run into the brick wall of partition that seems to nullify what Pakistanis (some all, whatever) want today.

Traditionally speaking, democracy was not invented in South Asia. It was a foreign invention. The indo pak continent was ruled by a powerful royal family, comprising of sometimes psychopathic people, who couldnt ever figure out a way other than simple warfare to decide who gets what--the resource allocation question was never negotiated on the basis of need, want, ability but on the basis of power.

A more sophisticated civilization--was able to take over and the outcome of the proposed democracy struck the `muslims` with fear. It seemed that they would be forced to change and have less power. In this entire insecurity--the basis for a country became an identity rather than certain values. It follows from that, that the better values are sacrificed on the alter of an identity. Even now, the constitution can be restated--it can be restated to talk about noble values that Islam also proposes rather than the religious identity.

In order to take a shot, one always has to step back. Our history can show us what we need to today. But an honest, impartial and practical approach is necessary.

Thank you Nazar for summing up events in this way.

Interview with a Historian re:#1

``It would be nice if we at Chowk can learn about the publication of Anderson`s book on India`s nuclear program and people who participated in it. ``

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Dr Anderson is still working on this book and Chowk will certainly carry details about the book after it is published.

Chowk Rant hey Zeeshan

this is a good piece--very well written . It was Milan Kundera who in his book, ``Immortality`` talked about the need to write for writers--and how it is the desire to be immortal that makes them write. When a writer writies fiction/ poetry he/she in an intense ego trip--the creator of his universe.

The I u use is metaphoric to the ego--.

Then there was Rilke--who in his letters to a young poet said that write only if you are compelled to write and there is no other way. Writing is therapy and a means to resolve the conflict of the individual ego and the world.

Growing up Muslim re razz

My name is Saima Shah--let`s get that clear please.

Also, I dont see why you are blocking up the replies with quotes from the bible? surely a good muslim like you doesnt need to resort to the bible to prove your point? the Quran should be enough?

In any case you cannot prove the point that the Quran is not anti-women--I see that you are down to proving that the bible is more anti-women than the Quran. I dont know how that is relevant to my article--where I talk about how teaching children Quranic morality is a bit inappropriate since it wont teach them the morality you would ideally want--all it will teach them is that women are somehow a little inferior and that a good woman listens to the man. Or even worse develop a hatred of their identity or other kafirs visavis 9-11. Nowhere have I recommended that children should read the bible as an alternative to the Quran. If anything I find all these monotheistic religious texts a bit tiresome...now I suppose you will post the bhagvat Gita? My point was and I think you must have got it but it challenged your assumptions too much--to my mind, morality isnt in the books, it is in how children see their parents behave regarding questions of right and wrong.

re: Pmishra2
I completely agree with you--muslims should not try to co opt any of the other communities. I changed my mind--I thought they should because of the common values and culture--but you have proved the realists right--the petty divisions, prejudice and hatred in the brown man is too deep. You can feel superior and dismiss the Muslim immigrant, but fact is he of all the others has the balls to fight a different civilization--whether rightly or wrongly.

Growing up Muslim Urstruly;

If you want to talk about the horrors of Western civilization--go ahead. It is obvious to me that your comments have nothing to do with my article anymore so I shall ignore them.
Nowhere in my article or replies have I said the things u seem to read into it. You are welcome to pass judgement on a society that is sexually open and imagine what you will. If you think that the way Pakistani parents teach their children will be successful in this century, you are welcome to that belief. You keep skirting the point I made over and over again in this article and the replies..that the methods that parents use, the style and the assumptions they make are inappropriate. I have not told you or anybody else that the way children are brought up with in western homes is better, the best or anything else.

Two Poems Godot

to my mind

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I felt the first to mean the search for God--the eyes being consciousness--searching for a plausible answer to it all--instead the memories of life`s disappointments, the lack of explanation/justice for so much--then the acceptance of one`s mortality and lifes isness.

The second seemed at first read to be about escape but later to be again about acceptance but in some ways a joyful acceptance--from the heart--Budha seems likely...hmmm.

Growing up Muslim 119 by pmishra2 on August 11, 2003 5:52pm PT
[quote]
But no, the Muslims sit in a huff in a Masjid, the Christians in the Churches, the Hindus stay in the Mandirs and the Sikhs stay bound to the Gurdwara.
[end-quote]

But the facts don`t support you. It is very well known that achievement and relative social emancipation among Indians is considerably further ahead than Pakis and Bangladeshis. Further, and lets be blunt here, that sikhs and hindus have considerably fewer difficulties in assimilating that muslims. There are plenty of surveys to back this up.

So don`t bother to co-opt the rest of us ``brown folk``. Instead try to focus on the core of your problems.

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Now that you have made yourself feel better--it is a `Muslim` problem, not yours after all. I agree that in many socially obvious ways--clothes, names lifestyles Hindus and Sikhs absorb local culture better--Can I also tell you, that even though the Sikhs, the Hindus are in your opinion so such better at assimilation--the brown part of BC has the highest crime rates--the greatest number of false insurance claims made are by the assimilated and emancipated Hindus and Sikhs. So, you are better at getting along and seeming to tolerate others--what about the fact that in a mixed marriage, it is the Hindu parents who create the biggest fuss, who NEVER acknowledge the marriage. I personally know three cases where the Muslims were able to accept the Hindu, but the Hindu never accepted the Muslim. What do you call that? emancipation?

People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

Growing up Muslim re:#114
Urstruly--

Sorry to read your response. You obviously misunderstand or are very authoritarian in your outlook and therefore dont see the point at all. At the age of 6 a child is made to feel shame at an innocent act. A child of six should not be made to feel guilty about a change in the channel--which she may or may not have done. Quite unknowingly I bet. This is early sexualization. Whether the TV is regulated or not is besides the point. IF the parents care what their children watch--why don`t they ban playstation? or endless cartoons which have violence and sometimes very adult themes. Why not reduce the number of channels they receive--instead of making the child cry about something she knows nothing about?

There is a time to explain your cultural values--when a child is ready to understand the issue. At six a child is too immature.

The chasm is in your mind--you can bridge it if you try to be less suspicious of what the other person is saying. This has little to do white, brown or black men. It is about our fear and suspicion of our own children. It isn`t fair on them.

btw, I sang no hymns of praise for anybody. I admired a writer and quoted Socrates`s ideas perhaps to start a dialogue on values, culture and what is worth preserving. Tomorrow I may quote Rumi--will you accuse me of singing the praises of brown man? Whether a writer was white or off-white is besides the point. Race purity for me is not a value--quite obviously some people think otherwise. Thank you, these replies provide me the additional evidence of just why the Third world is the third world. Coz their values are third rate.

Your accusations disappointed me. I guess I expected some fair criticism.

Growing up Muslim #97--

Criticizing my organization of the stories doesnt deflect from the main issue: though you say that I am over generalizing, you are quoting from your personal experience to say that my observations are incorrect. Isn`t that over generalization?

You seem to want to contradict me over and above any desire to understand the point I am making. Obvious to myself and others is the knee jerk insularity that I am pointing to--as for extreme--this so called `extreme` is normal to most migrants--they do not want their child to lose whatever faith they call their identity.

let me quote, ``If our children do indeed marry out of the faith, then it is due to our failure as parents to impart our values and sense of identity. ``

This is exactly the attitude I am talking about in the article. You have just proved my point. thank you.

and, thanks for acknowledging the poor organization and sense of community among Muslim migrants. And yes, for the most part teaching morality to children seems to be a lot about prejudice and repression.

Growing up Muslim #89

adnan_rafiq
``How about a little gratitude for the father who suffers from an acute case of ``slave mentality``, yet raises successful bright kids?``

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So you want me to be sympathetic towards migrant parents who have a very hard choice to make? I am. Ideally what I would like is some thought before they make that choice and think through if the old way is the best way BEFORE they impose limits to their children`s lives. A little debate, some dialogue would go a long way. I object to using the default mode of parenting.

I quoted Socrates in my article for he had the original idea of thinking through an idea such that nobody could shake that argument. 3 days this article has been up--nobody has yet convinced me through argument that repressing their children`s curiousity would elicit a better moral character, inner peace and scholastic ability (isnt that what we all want to see in our children?). The most that people have said is: There are many well-adjusted second generation children who take the best from East and West. But how they do that is ambiguous--so let`s ask them, how their parents dealt with their identity and the moral baggage.

About the slave mentality and success. Both aren`t interdependent--. Socrates the great philosopher was not a slave but hugely unsuccessful. Socrates himself said in his dialogues--that the pursuit of reason is for happiness, not success because sycophants can be very successful.

Having said that--my `sweeping statements` and `gross generalizations` aside, do you seriously thing that you or I or these other migrants do not have a slave mentality? We may be paid slaves, but slaves of the system we are. Everytime a third world citizen stands in endless lines, forced to produce every document he has to prove himself, he is a slave. In his own country he is a slave to his dream that migration will give him power, and in the foreign country he is a slave to his fear of loss of identity. And through out it all he is slave to every need of his that makes him do what he does not like.

Is bigotry and hypocrisy necessary to raise morally upstanding children?

Growing up Muslim Razzz:

Quran is anti-women. Quran allows one man to have 4 wives and limitless sex slaves. Quran clearly says that woman is one degree less than man. Quran prescribes a rigid code of dress for women. Quran allows child marriages. Quran allows slavery. For more check out Urstruly`s last article on Chowk, who has clearly shown what the Quran views Women. The tragedy is that its followers actually accept all that as divine, unlike Christains and Judaism. Btw, Quran shares a lot with the other texts, You cant blame the clergy for following it to the letter--they are probably doing a better job than jews and christians. This is my opinion of it. I am not about to change it just because of your disapproval because I arrived at mine after reading it--objectively, unlike you. This is my point. What is your point? that Quran is less anti-women than other monotheistic texts? that it was the baadddd clergy in Islam who ruined it? so the good clergy in Christainity and Judaism improved their texts? your opinion about the Quran is supported by many so-called scholars around the world. Doesnt that make you feel secure in your belief? why do u want me to change my mind?

And hey if you didn`t read surah-e-nisah, do so now. As for quoting it for your benefit, I am not about to clog up my board with irrelevant posts about the Quran--rather than the central ideas in my article. I am not going to argue with you anymore about the Quran--this is my last post on this topic that has been beaten to death before at Chowk. If that makes you angry, go to a counselor about your desire to control other people`s opinions.

regards

re: #79

And your point is? surprised to see that you with excellent values from india/pakistan labelling the `fair sex`.