Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #148 Posted by tahmed32

So why didnt they run for elections and let the Pakistan people decide on whether they want them to have power?

If you stop bombing them and ridiculing them, they will run for elections in their area. But then you'll have to give them what they want for themselves if they win. So far their experience has not been good in that respect. They agitated peacefully in Swat for a decade and look what happened.

The \'One God\' Religions of Revelation #838 Posted by muradbaig

I try to never speak of Islamic architecture, art, scripts, culture or atrocities because these were not the creations of the religion but the good and bad activities of numerous people like the Arabs, Persians, Mongols, Afghans Turks, etc.

My God you're so ignorant. Why do you think they built mosques with the highest entrance arches possible? It was to make a person feel small and humble while entering the house of Allah. The Samarkand grand Mosque is an example.

But perhaps you're not ignorant, but a deceitful and willful misleader of people.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #141 Posted by bubba,

Of course, because KSA was dishing out the required cost to buy all those stringer missles, and was a conduit for effective training. It is KSA that saw to keep perpetuating their brand of islam in pakistan.

Laughable ... that's all I can say. As far as I know the stingers (i.e. whatever were left after Ojhri) were bought back by CIA for $250,000-300,000 a piece through ISI under Hameed Gul.

... obviously you are not a well-read person. there was hearings regarding 9/11, and they have a 1000 pages worth of analysis, all at an affordable price of a soft cover.

Sure there was such an enquiry. Can you point out where in that 1,000 page soft cover it says how WTC #7 fell?

While you're at it, also please search for who wired Muhammad Atta $150,000 on 7/11.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #137 Posted by hamidm2,

On the other hand, I'm sorry to disappoint YOU. The government has accepted Pakistani Taliban under Baitullah Mehsud as a legitimate political force, and they're tripping over their own feet in clarifying that the Khyber Agency operation is not against Pak Taliban but against some rogue elements which have infiltrated them and going around abducting people for ransom in Peshawar (which is true).

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #136 Posted by tahmed32

zeemax #125 you disappoint me. what kind of "reasoning" is this?? this is the kind of "reasoning" that musharraf provides when he claims the judges were free all along!!

Where do you see any similarity between this argument and musharraf's? All this is saying is that the 'extremists' are not enemies of pakistan or its people. They stopped all violence unilaterally at election time. Remember? Even now they allowed by-elections to be held peacefully in Swat.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #133 Posted by majumdar,

There's a very good iLog by pavocavalry on this phenomenon. Do read it if you haven't already.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #131 Posted by majumdar,

There was an article about Bahawalpur (which some Ao-Pao visited after some time). Do you remember if the Bahawalpur people felt scared of their headquarters right in their middle?

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #127 Posted by majumdar

As far as the secular elite is considered (including that on chowk)

Huh? There's something wrong here. It is the other way round. The secular elite including the one on chowk is piss scared of them when the aam awaam is not. That's what the Brig is saying.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #115/116 Posted by tahmed32,

... today the same clowns that talked about the US deserting Afghanistan after the russians left are whining about US interference in Afghanistan after 9/11.

Both criticisms against US are correct. First, they stayed on board only till there were Soviets in AF and left when Soviets left, without assisting in clearing up the mess they had a full part in creating. Second, they created the mess all over again when it was almost cleared after a decade, on the pretext of 9/11. No one really knows what the hell 9/11 was and which magician's hat it popped out from.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #113 Posted by majumdar,

Brig Raja has no problem with jihadis causing mayhem in Kashmir ... but has a problem if they run riot in Pakistan.

Not at all. What he means is that it was Jihad then, and it is Jihad now - no difference.

Note the following para in his essay:

"The public does not fear the religious extremists and are not fearful of them. It is USA and our spineless secular leaders that are afraid of them. The people sympathies are with them since they consider them the real bearers of Islam and the only ones who can keep the perverse American influence and western culture at bay. They feel that the Islamists and not the nuclear capability is the best deterrence against foreign aggression. How can they forget the commendable role of the tribals in 1948 war? But for their voluntary intrusion, Azad Kashmir would also have become part of India. During the 1965 war and ten-year Afghan war, they zealously guarded the western border without army support. They are natural fighters and a great asset for the country but wrong policies of our leaders have turned the asset into liability."

This is what I too have maintained all along, which is why I reproduced this article.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? US anti-Islamic policies responsible for terrorism

- Asian Tribune -

Sun, 2008-06-29

By Asif Haroon Raja

Till 9/11, all our Jihadis (now dubbed as extremists) were waging Jihad outside Pakistan, whether in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Chechnya or Kosovo. After terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, Pakistan was roped in to fight the US sponsored war on terror to provide safety to USA located 10,000 miles away. In our bid to please the USA, we inducted 80,000 regular troops into the tribal belt and vigorously hunted and captured 600 Al-Qaeda and Taliban operatives from our tribal belt and handed them over to the Americans without any trials in return for reward money. Many among the captured lot were later on repatriated being innocent.

Military operations were also conducted to flush out foreign terrorist but in the process killed many innocent civilians. The army was primarily used to restrain the militants from crossing the border and fighting the foreign occupation troops in Afghanistan. All these unfriendly acts added to the resentment of the locals and a time came when Pak Army earned the ignominious name of a ?mercenary army? operating at the behest of USA.

The Jihadists got sandwiched between US-NATO-Afghan forces and Pak troops. Caught between devil and deep sea, the militants under the leadership of Nek Muhammad and later under Abdullah Masud and then Baitullah Masud were left with no choice but to turn their guns inwards. CIA-RAW-RAM intelligence axis took advantage of the changed situation and exploited it to the hilt with a view to bog down our forces permanently, cause tribal-army estrangement and discredit the army. When casualties on both sides began to mount, elders of the affected area tried hard to convince the authorities to withdraw regular troops and not to meddle in their affairs. In return, they promised to meet most demands of the government. After several failed attempts of army backed Jirgas, the two sides agreed to restore peace on certain terms.

Once peace was restored after signing an agreement in February 2005 in South Waziristan, the army opened another front in North Waziristan on the pointing and nudging of USA. When things went out of control another agreement was signed on 15 August 2006 with the militants of that area to avoid bloodshed and restore normalcy. It was agreed to wind up check posts along the roadside and some forward posts. This arrangement did not suit our detractors and Pakistan came under ever-increasing pressure that increased militancy in Afghanistan was due to the peace agreements. It was also alleged that certain quarters within the army including the ISI were quietly supporting the Taliban. Under mounting US pressure the agreement was dishonoured and check posts were re-established and ?search and destroy? missions against suspected hideouts of militants intensified.

After the US missile attack in Damadola in January 2006, things took an ugly turn when US predator fired missiles on a house in Bajaur in October killing almost all inmates. Rather than condemning the attack, Pak army took the blame, saying that own gun ships had attacked the hideout of terrorists. It incensed the locals further and they started to project the army as the private army of USA. They told their sons not to join the army of infidels and the religious Mullahs gave a fatwa that soldiers killed in action were not martyrs and unworthy of funeral prayers. On 26 August 2007 when US predator again attacked a suspected terrorist hideout in Bajaur and killed 19 innocent people, the government accepted it as a fait accompli and preferred to remain mum.

Whatever little respect the army had was washed away after the brutal military operation against religious seminaries in Islamabad in July 2007 killing large number of innocent men, women and children. The grisly episode propelled the militants in North Waziristan to scrap the ten month old agreement on 15 July 2007 on the plea that the army had dishonoured it. They virtually declared war against the army and ever since the army is being targeted with impunity. Mohmand Agency also heated up where a mosque was named as Lal Masjid. The ISI and the commandoes involved in Lal Masjid operation and in the tribal belt and in kidnapping of religious elements were marked as their prime targets. This was evident from the deadly suicide attacks in Rawalpindi and in Tarbela.

After a lull period of over two years, South Waziristan became volatile once again from August 2007 and the peace accord was nullified by militants of Mahsud tribe on the pretext that the army had violated the accord by inducting more forces and conducting uncalled for operations. Several physical attacks and suicide bombing incidents took place including attacks on forts resulting in human losses on both sides. Although another peace accord was inked in November last but peace remained illusive.

Four missile attacks by US drones against suspected targets in FATA have taken place in the last five months but have not evoked any reaction from the regime. Missile attack in Bajaur on 16 March which claimed 20 lives was launched despite US assurances not to indulge in such barbaric acts. This provocative step was initiated to scuttle ongoing peace talks between the militants and government. Yet another highly provocative act was undertaken by Nato-Afghan forces when they launched an aerial attack on a security post in Mohmand Agency on 10 June killing several soldiers and civilians. Soon after, Hamid Karzai threatened to send his troops into Fata to combat Baitullah led Taliban. US drones have intensified intrusive flights over the tribal belt while Indian drones have started to indulge in similar provocations in Lipa-Pandu-Chakothi sector in Azad Kashmir which I once commanded.

The security forces numbering 120,000 are involved in counter insurgency operations in Fata for the last five years and have lost more than 1200 combat soldiers without achieving any results. In fact the militants have become more aggressive and apart from attacking small posts, they are making use of improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and suicide bombers against moving convoys. Several incidents of kidnapping and ruthless beheading of soldiers by the militants took place in 2007. The army on the other hand used gun ship helicopters and artillery guns in support of ground operations which enhanced collateral damage. Even jet fighters were employed on few occasions.

It led to large-scale displacement of people and brought untold suffering to the people of FATA and destroyed their fragile economy. These punitive acts added to the resentment of the tribals and in turn gave rise to Talibanisation which has spread to all the seven tribal Agencies and to nearby settled parts of NWFP. It is now slowly making inroads in Punjab as well.

Our troops have been fighting the militants under most adverse conditions. The regular troops were pushed into the tribal belt without any acclimatisation and training in guerrilla warfare. They had to contend with the reservations of the paramilitary troops who felt that their domain had been intruded and they had been relegated to lower position. Lack of intelligence and language problems were other problems faced. They did not know how to deal with suicide attacks or IEDs and had no night fighting capability. The jammers and night goggles provided by USA as late as 2006 were limited in quantity. The assigned targets were kept secret from the concerned unit till the last moment on the excuse of security leak leading to fleeing away of the intended prey. Based on the intelligence provided by CIA or FBI, they were given marching orders in the middle of the night to reach a particular area in quick time without disclosing the purpose. As a result, the attacking troops remained seriously handicapped with regard to reconnaissance of the target area, preparation and planning and kind of fire support needed. With such handicaps and lack of coordination between various elements, most attacks proved costly and unproductive.

While our leaders constantly blow up dangers of extremism and terrorism, most Pakistani do not buy their arguments. They believe that the US anti-Islamic policies and genocide of Muslims in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan and also in FATA, together with Musharraf?s role to assist US forces in killing Muslim militants have fuelled religious extremism in Pakistan. They are of the view that the Americans are not fighting the war on terror to control militancy but to control natural resources of the Muslims. They are of the view that Pak army is being misused at the behest of America to fight its own people to protect US interests and not Pakistan?s interests. This impression is prevalent among the lower ranks of the army as well.

While the rulers and USA put the blame of every terrorist act on al-Qaeda or Baitullah led militants, the Taliban in Pakistan are not shunned by the public since they offer better system of governance and quick justice. The Taliban in Afghanistan had demonstrated their ability to make the restive country peaceful and drug free. In Fata and settled areas of NWFP the local Taliban have been able to control the miscreants and brought relief to the tribals by taking to task the criminals. This is contrary to the policy of our rulers and law enforcers who tend to protect the corrupt and criminals. The corrupt lower courts take years to decide cases and in most cases give verdicts in favour of the criminals.

The public does not fear the religious extremists and are not fearful of them. It is USA and our spineless secular leaders that are afraid of them. The people sympathies are with them since they consider them the real bearers of Islam and the only ones who can keep the perverse American influence and western culture at bay. They feel that the Islamists and not the nuclear capability is the best deterrence against foreign aggression. How can they forget the commendable role of the tribals in 1948 war? But for their voluntary intrusion, Azad Kashmir would also have become part of India. During the 1965 war and ten-year Afghan war, they zealously guarded the western border without army support. They are natural fighters and a great asset for the country but wrong policies of our leaders have turned the asset into liability.

The people feel that USA and India are behind terrorist acts to keep the army permanently engaged in the US war on terror. It is questioned as to why the BLA in Baluchistan with its leadership residing in Kabul is being backed by RAW-RAM-CIA-Mosad-MI-6 axis of evil based in Kabul. It is an open secret that the military bases provided to US forces in Baluchistan in October 2001 are being misused for clandestine operations in Baluchistan. Thousands of FBI and CIA agents are still operating unchecked in Pakistan under the plea of nabbing terrorists. The MQM, which indulges in terrorism is patronised by USA, UK and India. The Islamists feel that Musharraf is an American lapdog and as long as he remains at the helm of affairs, Islam will be in danger; hence their moral and religious obligation to rid the Islamic State of an evil through violent means. They add that Musharraf has been fighting this futile war not to end militancy but to prolong his stay in power.

There is a widely held perception that USA will continue with its efforts to keep the pot of Baluchistan simmering so as to prevent Gwadar from becoming a seaport with the assistance of China, and to create misgivings between Iran and Pakistan. It will also keep stoking the fires of militancy in FATA, and NWFP to keep the leadership on the tenterhooks and make it fight the losing battle of terrorism irrespective of its consequences and thus pave the way for denuclearisation and destabilisation of Pakistan. Nuclear proliferation card will also be played off and on to keep Pakistan under pressure.

Peace deals have irked US Administration and it is trying hard to rupture the developing understanding between security forces and militants. Americans have got so used to receiving positive response to every command that they are finding it difficult to reconcile with changed tone and responses. The new army chief Gen Kayani is also not showing any inclination of emulating his predecessor. Without a willing COAS saying ?yes? to every command of Pentagon, the US war on terror might run into snags. Had Kayani agreed to play their game, they would have dumped Musharraf by now. In order to build pressure on Pakistan, while Karzai will maintain his aggressive stance, sooner than later India will come out in its true colours and start heating up the LoC in Kashmir. Insurgency in Baluchistan might be intensified to tie down our forces in the south.

It is believed that docility and policy of appeasement of Musharraf has encouraged USA to interfere in our internal affairs. Since the whole wrath of war on terror has befallen upon the Pashtun, they rightly feel aggrieved. There is an urgent need to redress their grievances who believe that they have been given a raw deal. It is now to be seen how the new government tackles the issue of militancy at home and the lurking external threats. It has made a good beginning by opting for dialogue instead of use of force. However, if it also tries to please USA by subdividing the people of FATA and holding talks only with those willing to surrender arms, it should not hope for any positive outcome.

In that case the youth of Fata and Pashtun areas will gravitate towards the neo-Taliban rather than standing up against them. Without public support, extremism cannot be defeated. The real test of the new leaders is how they manage to win over the armed militants and convince them to live as law abiding peaceful citizens. Our sovereignty that is being gradually eroded since 2006 must be protected at all cost and all aggressive intrusions must be promptly replied in the same coin.

Asif Haroon Raja is a retired Brigadier from Pakistan Army and author of several books. He is an analyst on security and political matters.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #87 Posted by tahmed32

zeemax/dost mittar: it's official - these "islamic warriors" were nothing more than convenient tools for musharraf to stay in power.

Asfand Yar was talking about Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam, and not about anyone else. See my last two threads on UP.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #48 Posted by tahmed32,

It's not 60 years. It is the pain of a thousand years ...

Freud and Jung and Their Secret Affairs #118 Posted by quin

A woman used to throw house-trash over Prophet’s head every time he passed through her street....

See? This is what I meant. This incident is nowhere in any Hadees or Sunnah and is a myth when ascribed to Muhammad. It is actually from the Bahai'i tradition and said to have occurred with Baha'ullah. It was adapted to Islamic tradition at some point by some sufi type scholars because it's a nice story, and great to mislead people.

There was a discussion about this a while ago and I had proven this from several texts.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #21 Posted by masadi,

Sigh ... excellent post masadi.

Forgotten President & Shape of Things to Come? #17 Posted by hamidm2,

Yes. I understand your nostalgia. Peshawar was great. It is my other hometown besides Lahore.

I say 'was' is because it will never be again. The process started is irreversible.

It is all because of people like you. You're an extreme being an outright murtid and anti-Pakistan, but there're many others not so extreme though blind nevertheless. You pushed the 'other' side to the extreme too who are much more powerful than you. In the end you just lost your country.

I share in your grief.