A Movement in Religious Nationalism: Jami’at-ul-Ulama-i-Hind Vetex # 48,

``I saw it, and how you ``understood`` them. Sympathy for bigots makes you what?``

To put this matter at rest, please elaborate on how my statement about RSS using real atrocities commited in the past as a platform for their bigoted vision implies my sympathy for them.
I have tried to show you a contrast where, one bigot is using factual information to further a discriminating ideology and the other furthering a bigoted vision based on an ideology of being different than the rest of humanity by virute of belonging to islam. Eventually the result of both these ideologies is the same, dislike, distrust, discrmination etc. The modern ideology of jewish state is based upon their experience of holocaust in a big way. Which is to defend their interests. And yes holocaust was real. Although the ideology furthered by them today cannot be justified, only understood in terms of their traumatic experience. In the same way, RSS is trying to use the past as a tool to justify defending the interests of hindu community. I understand their grievance, but do not believe, that anything justifies atrocities to avenge past genocide. And hence my argument again, ``What arguments do the mullahs have in a nation where they have ruled and oppressed others to form a group/nation to protect their interests``.
By the same logic, Brahmins, the much maligned community in india, should have demanded a separate nation to safeguard their interests. Specially so in light of today`s reservation policy of the government discriminating against them in a big way. But do you even see a brahmin group formed to fight the government and protect their interests?
Why should they be punished for what their ancestors have done?
So here you have on one hand, muslims whose ancestors have persecuted the rest busy ``taking care of their interests`` today in light of imagined dangers, and the brahimns as the evil doers who should be punished without remorse for their ancestors` actions.
Hypocrites!!!

Adios

A Movement in Religious Nationalism: Jami’at-ul-Ulama-i-Hind Vertex # 21,

Problems with reading comprehension? Or were your pants on fire before you read my reply.

1. In case you missed ``bigoted`` for RSS vision.
2. ``Well, how about their own country? That is, after all, what they wanted...and in some sense, got. Yet, you guys still feel betrayed by TNT?`` Yeah, the point i made is even after having a country of your own, youth of your nation still come to die in my country.
In case you did not notice, the world over muslims demand a separate nation. Is it fear of persecution? Have they been persecuted in the past? By that token, the jews should seccede from every nation, where they have sizeable numbers and create a new one.

Adios

A Movement in Religious Nationalism: Jami’at-ul-Ulama-i-Hind Bundchungal,

An excellent artcile. Hope history is researched with the intention of laying bare the facts alone.

Vertex # 6,

``Of course Muslims are going to look after their own interests, and continue to do so.``

In this statement is the seed of pathetic mentality seen worldwide. Muslims first, humans last.

I can understand RSS using this argument and the FACTS of genocide perpetrated by many islamic invaders alongwith destruction of temples and forceful conversions to further their bigoted vision. Pray inform us about the argument of your dear mullahs for the need to safeguard their interests in a nation that was ruled by them for centuries.
Why was it so difficult for the same community to live like brothers with the rest after independence. Oh I`m sorry, i forgot, the superior islamic blood cannot live like equals with anyone else. When in power, it crushes the non-ummah, but in minority pleads about human rights and safeguarding its ``own interests`` or else demands separate nation.
I hope such people get a planet of their own and let this world breathe better.
Adios


There has been one partition for the same stupid reason and even now the passions between the two nations have not cooled down. When are you folks going to stop with this nonsense?

A Gory Tale of Lies, Greed and Deception Nighat,
This is an honest article, requiring courage to criticise what was held dear once.
Usually people get swayed more by emotions than facts, but you have displayed neutarlity by not exaggerating facts to suit your bias or distaste.

Your statement about politicians being corrupt is correct, but they are always a better alternative to the army anywhere in the world. I think had sharif still been in full control, India and pakistan too would have been better off in terms of mutual relationship. And, good relations between the two, I`m sure you would agree, would have allowed economy to take a better shape in paksitan, than it is today.


Sameer # 19,

``Musharraf thinks he is Akbar but in reality he is Abdali``.
I think Sameer bhai, he would prefer to be like abdali, specially in the context of evil hindoos living next door. And besides, Pak army officers probably don`t hold akbar in high esteem like they do for ghouri, ghaznavi, abdali etc.

Adios

Orissa: A Gujarat in the making Angana,

Your article reflects your opinions as opposed to the ground realities in orissa.
Remember that, tensions between converts and tribals is very high in orissa, not between upper castes and the rest as your article claims. This was evident during Staines`s murder too when the tribals supported dara singh and his gang. Thankfully law took its course in sentencing dara singh for the crime he commited. Its not like gujarat, where murderers were supported by the governemnt.
If our law permits missionaries to convert anyone than, VHP etc should not be held in contempt for doing the same. I don`t know why people like you cannot see reality and create fantastical one sided stories. Is it the product of our slightly biased curriculum in schools?
Would you care to tell us if there is caste discrimination practiced within christians and muslims in india too?
And lastly, everyone here will appreciate if you replied to some of the interactors` who have raised valid points. You seem to be good in just posting your opinions masked as facts and then performing the vanishing act.
Adios

Jaipur Dreams gujjubania # 97,

in continuation of my previous post.
I guess i started appreciating nehru more after coming to the US. Afetr all my alma mater is REC Warangal the first REC in India. And yes, its foundation stone too was laid by nehru.

Adios

Jaipur Dreams gujjubania # 97,

Its easy to criticise nehru in retrospect. But in his age and his times, with the vast majority of population illiterate and poor, higher education let alone education was most difficult to afford. In US, FDR was the first one to come up with your so-called idealsitic nonsense like social security and minimum wages just ten years before nehru`s era.
Remember that the vast majority of indians today are better of only due to access to world class education at ridiculously low costs. And yes he had the visions for such world class institutes, no one else. The same IITians, RECians, IIMians are sending so much back to india today.
Today in US, for an average joe getting a BS degree is not easy, with tuition so high and no support from governemnet. Imagine nehru`s obscurantist socialist policies providing equal ground for rich and poor alike. Its like abreath of fresh air in an otherwise class riddled and despondent society where the poor and middle class could never afford the only means for better life. You need to come over to the US and struggle on your own to realize what nehru`s policies meant for the indians.
Look up the number of americans in US universities in graduate level studies in engineering and sciences. They are dropping steadily compared to the immigrants, which are rising. And hence their growing dependence on india for a pool of scientific and engineering talent. And it is this vast pool of talent that is one of the prime reasons for economic boom in india.

Adios

Religion without Science is Blind Nasah # 41,

``now -- when you compare the Hindu sages talking in billions the age of universe -- and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sages describing the age of the universe of being of only 5 thousand years -- and the world created in 7 days! ........ one cannot help but say..... how pathetic the Judeo-Christian-Islamic `religious science` of God and Creation can get...:-) ``

My feelings exactly. Despite this fact we are culturally defensive as compared to the rest of the world. But perhaps as you put it
``....has turned out to be one of the most imprecise disorganized mish mash of Myths and Maths.......``

is perhaps responsible for our apathy towards our bizzare culture in this organization dominated science, religion and society of the modern world.

adios

Religion without Science is Blind Dost Mitter,

My knowledge in this regard is perfunctory at best. Ironman`s reply explains your question well.

Ironman,

Its strange that astrologers in india should account for preccission of earth`s axis in their planetary computations, but the calendar makers don`t do so. I`m not doubting the veracity of your explanation, rather wondering why...
Perhaps a science historian could dig some information on this.

I agree with you about people claiming modern scientific theories as their ancient heritage.

Adios

Religion without Science is Blind Ironman # 31,

I think it would be best to settle this issue if you actually looked up the calculations as mentioned in the translation i mentioned to you or sagan`s ``Cosmos``. I referred to the copy of ``cosmos`` I have again after your post. This is what roughly sagan says about the hindu theory on the age of the universe.
``Surely it must be a mere coincidence that ancient indians calucalted the age of the universe to be 14 billion years``.

You did not follow clearly when i mentioned that while christians go to ridiculous lengths to justify childish theories, indians on the other hand are hesitant to claim what is rightfully their heritage. I was trying to show you the contrast in two cultures. And No i`m not hoping that indians behave like these conservative christians. Rather, they learn to atleast assert confidently what is their contribution in any area.
As a small example, the vast majority of indians I know in academia do not know that trigonometric functions like ``Sine`` were first discovered by Aryabhatta. Its because of what people like you that the number system prevelant is called arabic numerals and not indian numerals. Atleast you can learn from the chinese, how they have been able to assert on their fair share of credit where due. There are many such exmaples, but then nations like germany care more about sanskrit literature then indians do.
In all of the above examples it is not my intention to go back to past and live life the ancient way. But, for heaven`s sake, give credit to people for what they have done, even if they are indians. And yes in the eyes of a common indian, such information will definitely have a positive affect upon their self-esteem.

``The only surprise here is that you don`t know this simple fact. A panchang is made using data *FROM* an almanac``.

If that was the case, I would not have bothered to post this statement. But obviously you did not care to reserach. A panchaang FORECASTS the position of planets based upon calculations. These calculations strangely take into account preccission of earth`s axis. Pick up a panchaang 100 years old (lot of folks have these but perhaps in tattered condition). And you will see that sun eneters a new zodiac every 15th o the month not 23rd as claimed in western world since 2000 years. Although 2000 years ago sun enterd every zodiac on the 23rd of every month, due to slow shifting of earth`s axis the dates now coincide with 15th/16th. An astronomical almanac differs with a panchaang only in about less than a degree for all the planets and sun. Incidentally, sawai mansingh of jaipur who built his jantar mantar (observatory) was perhaps the llast time indian astrologers looked up in the sky to actually measure the position of planets.

Adios

Jaipur Dreams Zia,

You are always welcome to jaipur. I hope you get to see not just jaipur but also udaipur, jodhpur and jaiselmer. These are truly some of the most beautiful cities i`ve seen in the world. Don`t let your spirits sink reading hatefilled posts.

Adios

Religion without Science is Blind Ironman # 21,

Relax and look up the number 4.32 billion years again in the puraan. One day in the life of brahma is equivalent to 4.32 billion earth years. One day of brahma is not the age of the universe.
For an actual numerical calculation please read Stephen Cohen`s translation of Bhagvad Puraan which comes close to 14 billion years. Carl sagan confirms the same in his book.

I don`t believe that ancient indians were the greatest scientists or were a bunch of know-alls. Whatever their methods of reaching the conclusions, todays physcisists marvel at their insights. People in india have a tendency to either downplay their own country`s contribution or exaggerate it beyond belief. I guess there`s nothing wrong to openly admit the facts even if they favour your culture.
Try to look at the christians in the US and their crusade against evolution or any other scientific theory. These include well read people who go to unimaginable lengths to justify creation by bible. We belong to the other extreme, where people are defensive to even admit that some guys in ancient india speculated the age of the universe to be roughly 14 billion years. Can you imagine what the world would be if bible had the same creation theory as bhagvad puraan?

Another indian scientific nugget you might not know is a popularly available panchaang with an astrologer. Try to compare the positon of planets in panchaang with actual almanac and the western astrological almanac. You`ll be in for a big surprise.

Adios

Religion without Science is Blind Mohammed Gill,

Both religion and science as defined by the western world will remain incompatible. Religion claims to know it, while science claims to seeek it. Never the twain shall meet.
Its a classic case of open vs. closed system in such societies.
Where religion has developed with the same motivation as that of science, there is a harmonious synergy between the two.
Einstein along with heisenberg, schroedinger, bohr etc. leaned heavily towards eastern thoughts after unravelling major theories of their own. They often quoted from upanishads, avatamska sutra and taoist literature to explain the same scintific phenomenon they helped explain using their theories. Not that these books were authored by people who claimed to be God, but by those who considered seeking and knowing truth originally as the highest ideal. Quite the same ideal as a scientists`. Would you agree?

When einstein mentioned about science being lame without religion he probably was talking about what nasah has mentioned ``ethics is needed in science -- ethics does not necessarily mean religion``.
Remember, his theory was the basis for atomic bomb which took the lives of thousands. I`m sure he realized that his knowledge of science needed to be used ethically.

Oh and your statement “Science can no more answer the question of how we ought to live than religion can decree the age of the earth`` needs a little correction. If you consider hinduism a religion, then Bhagvad puran, in its very first chapter calculates the age of universe as approximately 13.86 billion years. You could confirm this in carl sagan`s book ``Cosmos``.

Adios

One Afternoon Nice article !!

India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality Nazar # 90,

``The politicians are corrupt all over the world, the answer is not to call in the Army.``

I have long felt the absence of this sentiment in pakistan is the root cause of people`s initial support for dictatorship. I hope people in pakistan understand this fact well and accept that there is no perefct system in this world to govern a group of people.
However democracy IS the best available option. Untill then, they should stick to what dlivers the best result for them.

Adios

Pervez Hoodbhoy-Paul Kurtz correspondence Dr. HoodBhoy,

Ibn Warraq epitomises the mental state of a recent convert. I`ve personally met a large number of such converts, who have this need to prove themselves and rest of the world, their reason for deserting the past. They invariably show contempt for their previous path, and why not, that is the only way they can justify their conversion to wahtever it is.

I do not see any reason to be perturbed by such individuals` remark towards anybody. Edward Said`s contribution is well known and established. Ibn Warraq does offer a counter point, though a very weak and ineffectual one to Said`s ``Orientalism``. In fact his ineffectual crtique on ``Orientalism`` only makes Said`s theory look stronger. I believe, there are plenty of socities in western countries which will encourage Ibn warraqs to openly denounce individuals with original insight into their own socieites.
Just yesterday, Hugo Chavez, president of venezuala came out saying that Columbus day should not be celeberated as he brought the worlds largest genocide to the Americas. You can bet upon a thousand Ibn Warraqs to denounce barbaric native american culture and compare it with civilized conquistadors and other europeans.
I am not denying right to criticise, but it should be exercised with intellectual honesty not personal slandering. And I sympathise with you on this issue.

Adios