The Open Circle HN,

Nice viewpoint, but unfortunately you come across as being illeterate on hinduism.
Better to be in the open circle, where the mind can go in or out with free will. And no Hinduism is not desiring longevity at any cost. You would have seen holy wars fought on this land if that were true.
`` karmic curse, rather than any systematic crossing of historical milestones, through the course of civilization. This and a total lack of an anxiety for identity, made for a vast amorphous value system where all units were legitimate, and the whole was infinite. ``

Thats what RSS is trying to reverse as you too have mentioned. A curse that you and I would perhaps want to perpetuate and be allowed to live in without fear of repercussions if we stepped out of this circle. Try stepping out of any other closed circle and see the result.

``And this baggage of value systems somehow was a baggage that never lost itself, because it was a holdall with infinite capacity.``

You may have a few dissertations come out of this passing reference when contrasted especially with the demise of other baggages of value systems like the greek, roman, mesopotamian and egyptian civilizations/cultures. Its my opinion, that this baggage enriches itself and breathes due to some other strengths, perhaps overlooked by you or not known to you. Every continent with history of invasions has had their open circles replaced by closed ones. Except for two regions, china and india. These two remained the sought after places for thousands of years due to this open circle and will regain soon the same position.
``Hinduism could not be marshalled as a unifying, galvanizing force to define a nationalism for emergent India, which is a political identity. Hinduism’s clay was bad material for moulding identities. ``

Only god marshalls that everywhere, for no one can challenge him. To do that u have to see him first.

I think u need to read Bishop Thomas Spong`s articulation on Xtianity. The poor guy is trying to make an open circle out of the closed one or perhaps a weed out of a manicured lawn in your language. Grass is greener on the other side.

Adios

Intelligent Design versus Natural Selection Mohammed Gill,

A very appropriate article for people living in the states perhaps more than others. I think though, that creationism is of some importance for mostly christians and to some extent other Abrahamic faithfuls. For others to accept it or reject it, could be based on more honest personal insights. Not that I`m suggesting you are not honest. I think you consciously choose to be so.

Here in the US, its become a common tendency to ask the opinions of school kids on evolution and splash it across the media during any serious debate. I think no one should be allowed to form an opinion on this, until an accepted copy of the origin of species for laymen is read by such individuals. I believe that could be the first step in having a meaningful discussion on this.

Personally, I`m inclined to accept evoultion as a better explanation than any other. More on this later.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed # 75,

The feeling is mutual.
Despite my observations, I hope u r right about the pakistan & US relation.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Mohar #48,

``There has to be a public demand and outcry for this. For that to happen - the ``intellectuals`` would have to stop breast-beating and think straight.``

I would hope that atleast now indians would understand that anyone could become a victim based on a label they born with. To get swayed due to their labels really muddles the truth. They can all agree that the bottom line of safety and security to one and all should never be compromised.

Instead of improving law and order, punishing the guilty, we are happy to lobby for modi`s visa denial in the US. Ek teer do shikaar. No justice and making an ass of oneself in the US.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Rsridhar # 28,

http://indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=15385

The accused were tried in court for years. Anwar Kaur, on whom all hopes lay as a prime witness retracted her statement later, much to the disappointment of many indians including myself. Would have loved to see the culprits punished.

Also please read this news clip on how the police did not register cases against the guilty politicians during the riots. Police in india can never go against the ruling politicians. And in my opinion as a first step to avoid such situations, a fair amount of autonomy should be given to the police force in such cases.

I would think that there`s something that can be used to try Modi and his people similarly. But haven`t seen it yet. Only the rhetoric of hindutva vs. secularism in danger with nothing to book the guilty.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed # 30,

````But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``, was your main point of the post, then I hope you will at least agree that this main point was well hidden inside a heap of hand-wringing about Revathy writing this article``

I disagree with your assertion and repeat that you`ve read is what u wanted to.

``So, instead of getting into the nonsense of looking into the past, I suggest you look to the future ``

Are u trying to put words in my mouth? Please refrain from blind accusations. You are the one who has brought babri, medieval ages and everything else you can pile upon here. I;m trying to suggest an absence of justice and proper law and order in scenarios like this in independent india.

The crux of my post on this board has been the denial of safety, security and justice to the people of india. Periodically, the victims have been muslims, sikhs and hindus too. The perpetrators have changed from congress goons to BJP to leftists (naxal violence in Andhra and Bengal). It does not solve anything to jump up and down calling names to someone. I think in my post #23 i made this amply clear. I would be happy to see someone come up with evidence to prosecute the modis, advanis and others. BUT WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN EVIDENCE. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ALL THE JOURNALISTS OF THE WORLD? Iknow that jgdish tytler, sajjan kumar and HKL Bhagat were tried in court for their role in 84 riots. Why not modi.

This empty and useless rhetoric of communalism in the US does not bring justice to anyone. Jagdish tytler is a minister in the government today and has been to the US. I did not see anyone protesting against him when he clearly ahd a role to play in the riots. The victims of godhra openly expressed disdain and contempt for the BJP for being used by them to create a political stir. But nothing happened after that. Life just goes on. A few people like you in india just feel happy to call names to compensate for their dearth of any ideas or ways to avoid such things in the future. Yes this is the future I`m talking about. I don`t bel;ieve you read my post 23 also and gave a knee jerk reaction to it.

And about pakistan bending ove backwards to US or even china, there`s nothing new about it. The determination to explode N. Bombs has nothing to do with compliance with US. It just has to do with reacting to indian bomb explosions. And the US never really put any pressure on Pakistan against misslile or bomb development. They had turned a blind eye to it all for a long time. If they wanted to, one phone call to your general and he would have been up, saluting and doing the turn around as he did for taleban, jihadis, AQ Khan or others. Your nation has been ridden by US for far too long willingly at the hands of your own rulers. And there`s nothing wrong with that. Except that such a thing occurs only to the nations who do not value freedom and independence. And nations that value such ideals do so, due to winning freedom the hard way, by sheding their blood and sweat.

One more thing Tahmed, I think you have decided not to read my post as I can see and respond with your biases. I do not believe that my name calling to any numbers of murderous politcians be they in the garb of hindutva, secularism, islamism, naxalism etc. is going to do any good. But i do believe that the only way good can be done is perhaps by ensuring that people with any ideals are simply incapable of destroying a single life or property in india. And for that reason i`d rather hear critcism of the administration and ways to fix it. And equally important, prosescution of the guilty in an exemplary fashion, that no one in future would dare to think on those lines. It`s just my observation, that denying visa to one ass, who does not deserve publicity, is definitely not doing any good to the victims. May be a few impotent people feel powerful this way of rendering justice to the victims.

Adios

If I`ve come across somewhat annoyed, please excuse me for that.

A Good Reason To Cheer Did not intend to post it twice.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

``Instead of rallying to the defence of the criminals of your society....``

Once again Tahmed you`ve decided not to read my post # 7. The main point of my reply # is ``But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``
I`m amazed that I`m having to cut & paste from the same response to show you, that I consider it the incompetence of indian governing machine to met out justice to any victim. Further, in my opinion, as I`d posted a long time back, After godhra massacare, the authorities should have hunted down the train attackers and tried them. But in no way should they have allowed riots to break out. Murder of a thousand innocents does not serve justice to the dead in godhra station. It is that simple, and I hold the authorities in gujarat responible for that.
Having said that, I would have liked to see all of such activists and journalists to come forward and expose the police inaction and complicity with the politicians. Calling names and lobbying for visa denial is the path loosers take. The example of Teesta stelvad has complicated any hopes for justice to the victims. These people have their own axe to grind and create an emotional atmosphere which usually buries the truth. Gujarat is not the first time in the histoy of india. Anti-sikh riots and before that jabalpur (due to the hindus migrating from E.Pakistan) are just a few similar examples. The standard response in all such scenarios has been muddling the issue by excessive emotional rhetoric of religion, caste or political ideology splashed across the newspapers in india. Politicians, who are responsible for maintaining law and order usually keep quiet deliberately and let the mobs do their bidding. I hope you are well aware that in countries like US, no state or federal elected rep. controls the police force. In places like India the balls of police force are directly in the hands of politicians. Without the order of a politician, a cop cannot raise his voice. Despite that, there have been cases (the famous case of operation gangajal in bihar) where honest cops have tried to break this control of criminals from the society without much success. Even today, if a cop were to be ordered to stop so,mething he/she would do so to his her best. I`m surprised with the incompetnce not just of the administrative mchinery of india, but also the pathetic lack of originality and will of the so called journalists and reporters of india to uncover anything that could stick to modi and his people. If there was any, by now he would have been prosecuted. Remember, Narimhan Rao one of the best PM`s of India was tried for bribing MP`s. Whats stopping these name calling passionate individuals from pulling him in court. Quite simple, their own incompetence. Reason and passion are not exactly the best of the friends. And no one knows that better than the first & fourth pillar of democracy in our country.

Above all this, I do not consider USA to be the supreme court of the world. I would be happier to see people trying to bring justice to their own people, than looking upto a foreign country for acceptance within, while remianing in denial of the truth at home.

I wish these NRI` had spent half their energy during Modi`s r-election to defeat him, raise funds agianst him, bring him to justice. But I`ll never be the one to accept a foreigners system of judging for my country`s criminal also. And I was happy to see that the GOI responded with maturity to this fracas.

May be you pakistanis are quite used to americans telling you what to do. We`re not. That is one reason more than any that separates indians from pakistanis.

Adios


Revathy,

You are a good writer. My reaction to your article is perhaps best summed up in this post. I`m sure though (and hope so) you`ll continue to write as per your opinions. No offence to you.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

``Instead of rallying to the defence of the criminals of your society....``

Once again Tahmed you`ve decided not to read my post # 7. The main point of my reply # is ``But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``
I`m amazed that I`m having to cut & paste from the same response to show you, that I consider it the incompetence of indian governing machine to met out justice to any victim. Further, in my opinion, as I`d posted a long time back, After godhra massacare, the authorities should have hunted down the train attackers and tried them. But in no way should they have allowed riots to break out. Murder of a thousand innocents does not serve justice to the dead in godhra station. It is that simple, and I hold the authorities in gujarat responible for that.
Having said that, I would have liked to see all of such activists and journalists to come forward and expose the police inaction and complicity with the politicians. Calling names and lobbying for visa denial is the path loosers take. The example of Teesta stelvad has complicated any hopes for justice to the victims. These people have their own axe to grind and create an emotional atmosphere which usually buries the truth. Gujarat is not the first time in the histoy of india. Anti-sikh riots and before that jabalpur (due to the hindus migrating from E.Pakistan) are just a few similar examples. The standard response in all such scenarios has been muddling the issue by excessive emotional rhetoric of religion, caste or political ideology splashed across the newspapers in india. Politicians, who are responsible for maintaining law and order usually keep quiet deliberately and let the mobs do their bidding. I hope you are well aware that in countries like US, no state or federal elected rep. controls the police force. In places like India the balls of police force are directly in the hands of politicians. Without the order of a politician, a cop cannot raise his voice. Despite that, there have been cases (the famous case of operation gangajal in bihar) where honest cops have tried to break this control of criminals from the society without much success. Even today, if a cop were to be ordered to stop so,mething he/she would do so to his her best. I`m surprised with the incompetnce not just of the administrative mchinery of india, but also the pathetic lack of originality and will of the so called journalists and reporters of india to uncover anything that could stick to modi and his people. If there was any, by now he would have been prosecuted. Remember, Narimhan Rao one of the best PM`s of India was tried for bribing MP`s. Whats stopping these name calling passionate individuals from pulling him in court. Quite simple, their own incompetence. Reason and passion are not exactly the best of the friends. And no one knows that better than the first & fourth pillar of democracy in our country.

Above all this, I do not consider USA to be the supreme court of the world. I would be happier to see people trying to bring justice to their own people, than looking upto a foreign country for acceptance within, while remianing in denial of the truth at home.

I wish these NRI` had spent half their energy during Modi`s r-election to defeat him, raise funds agianst him, bring him to justice. But I`ll never be the one to accept a foreigners system of judging for my country`s criminal also. And I was happy to see that the GOI responded with maturity to this fracas.

May be you pakistanis are quite used to americans telling you what to do. We`re not. That is one reason more than any that separates indians from pakistanis.

Adios


Revathy,

You are a good writer. My reaction to your article is perhaps best summed up in this post. I`m sure though (and hope so) you`ll continue to write as per your opinions. No offence to you.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

I think I made my point in #7. You have decided to interpret in the way that suits your opinion of all indians. Any label based on anyones opinions does not bother me much.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed #10,

(``pseudo-secularist`` as maharana calls you ``)

You got me there. Now, show me the word pseudo secularist from my post. For your convenience, here`s my post-

``It appears to me that the chowkidars are really happy pedalling drivel for one ass who does not deserve so much publicity.

Revathy,

I just saw farzana`s name on the related article and the number of interacts there with. It was enough to tell me what`s going on that board. On chowk, its enough to read the authors name to know the quality of content most of the times. But you tripped me.

Could u please inform, why most of us indians take pride in washing our dirty laundry in US, while other nations never follow the same pattern? Has it something to do with our colonial hang over or inferirority complex? I don`t know. Heck even Idi amin was a chhadi yaar of white house ninnys once upon a time. But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. We were colonised once for the same mentality, but my guess is that it wasn`t enough.

A person like me would have appreciated all riots investigated and justice done within our country. Incidents like this should have inspired journalists and social activists to suggest ways to avoid such a catastrophe. As oppose to focussing our energies on governance and law, armchair activists have actually given life to modi`s sinking popularity. He`s more famous and known in gujarat now then ever. He doesn`t give a damn for what americans think as long as it can be made an issue so he gets re-elected. And to boot he`s a dalit, which too will be played very well by vested interests. ``

Next time onwards, read my post before heaping any insinuation.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer It appears to me that the chowkidars are really happy pedalling drivel for one ass who does not deserve so much publicity.

Revathy,

I just saw farzana`s name on the related article and the number of interacts there with. It was enough to tell me what`s going on that board. On chowk, its enough to read the authors name to know the quality of content most of the times. But you tripped me.

Could u please inform, why most of us indians take pride in washing our dirty laundry in US, while other nations never follow the same pattern? Has it something to do with our colonial hang over or inferirority complex? I don`t know. Heck even Idi amin was a chhadi yaar of white house ninnys once upon a time. But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. We were colonised once for the same mentality, but my guess is that it wasn`t enough.

A person like me would have appreciated all riots investigated and justice done within our country. Incidents like this should have inspired journalists and social activists to suggest ways to avoid such a catastrophe. As oppose to focussing our energies on governance and law, armchair activists have actually given life to modi`s sinking popularity. He`s more famous and known in gujarat now then ever. He doesn`t give a damn for what americans think as long as it can be made an issue so he gets re-elected. And to boot he`s a dalit, which too will be played very well by vested interests.

Adios

What is Secularism? Gill Sahab,

You chose a very pertinent topic to discuss and laid it out quite well. But as I`d said earlier, anything on this board regarding secularism raises a dust cloud within the pakistani community. There would be none of this, if at least some kind of foundation was laid early on in the life of pakistan.

``As an example of secularism with a local spin, Indian secularism is a good instance. According to wikipedia (2), “In India........... ``

Here again we see the development of a system that went hand and glove with the way the founding fathers fought the british. Before independence the literacy level of india was pathetically low and the concept of secularism alien to their thinking and culture. There was no way in hell, gandhi could have rallied the masses in the name of a concept unkown to them. Hence he appropriately used the concept of equal recognition to all religions, which later on becomne our version of secularism.
I think the clamour for uniform civil code is more from BJP and allies. That has been one of their election manifestos always. Congress has always shied away from it. But hopefully, with increasing literacy and awareness of rights, people will seek for a uniform civil code.

Adios

Prize and Prejudice Freethinker,

The reason for highlighting todays tendency of relying on journal articles is simply the quality of articles. If you pick up most of the journals and check, you can see how well their articles measure up against good quality artcilces which are fewer in number. Also take a peek at the Academia in the US. The motivation for getting published sometimes is also to get tenured. Hence the quality of articles suffer.

As for the Nobel in Mathematics is concerned, I think the whole world is aware of that. I am also aware of the fact that Reimann lived much before Nobel came into effect. Besides, my appreciation for Reimannian mathematics exists only because I`ve had the pleasure of taking certain courses dealing extensively with related math. Once you realise what he has done and proposed non-euclidean geometry with curved continuum, it was easy enough to apply that. In the absence of such math framework, where would general relativity stand? Had it not been for similar mathematicians to create and prove the validity of such math models by logical consistency, no physicist can ever apply such theorems to explain the real world phenomenon. Your statement that Reimann is quoted too is correct, but he;s not even remotely as popular as einstein. Except for people in science or technical disciplines, his contributions to the foundation of relativistic math are not known. The reason for that is not nobel prize alone, but a lack of appreciation of his work by the media which remains grossly ignorant about contributions of mathematicins generally.

You are well aware of course that in theorectical physics, without the proof of experiment, its only the mathematical foundation which makes or breaks the theory. theories of physics often become a special case of a more generalised theory only due to new developments in mathematics. The same is not true for mathematics. Its the only discipline that builds upon previously proven theorems. Once a math theory is developed it stays unchanged for eternity as it depends upon logic alone. Had Reimann lived before Newton or galieleo, do you think the development of classical mechanics would have remained the same?

I use continuum mechanics and finite element analysis routinely for my work. I know that you are an engineer too. Most of the engineers I come across in Aerospace industry inevitably get drawn towards mathematics for its sense of finality and ability to provide a complete understanding of any phenomenon. But I guess we`ll differ on the importance of physics Vs. Math with respect to each other. we all have our inclinations. We should discuss about that in detail some other time, lest we should hijack your board into something else.

Adios

Prize and Prejudice Mohammed Gill,

This was a well written peice on an excellent topic.

While it is true that Nobel committee members have been biased for many reasons, finally it is also upto the people and media to give Nobel prize the importance it deserves. It should be a sobre reminder to people judging works only by the awards, about the merits of such a thinking. Einstein at least published his work in journals, Darwin did not even do that. He published his work by way of writing his famous book ``Origin of Species``. In a world today where in scientists are obsessed with publishing their works in a journal as a mark of originality, fewer path breaking theories are emerging.

Ironically, where you feel Einstein was ``cheated`` vis a vis his work on relativity (both special and general) with regards to getting a Nobel, Reimann who laid the mathematical foundation for the non-euclidean geometry rarely gets mentioned for the same work. Somehow, I`m getting more and more inclined to believe that physicists connect the dots created by mathematicians. You must read both Reimann and Poincare`s work to know how they state mathematically pretty much what einstein applied to theorize about the universe.

Hope the world starts recognising that more often too.

Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Shishapa,

I think you are quite new here.

Let me inform you about a couple of things you may have already observed on chowk. It is hard for indians or pakistanis to accept the ground realities of their respective countries. This site merely becomes a way to posture, even if you come with the intenetion of asking anything with genuine interest.

On the issue of the origin of pakistan, secularism etc. you can debate this point to death, but will not get an honest reply due to the inability of people to look at their respective founding fathers as anything but human. The interpersonal dynamics and individual personalities of various leaders contributed more than anything else to the birth of paksitan.
The mask of any ideology given to justify this was meant to arouse the masses with the most common denominator. In our sub-continent, religion has been made just that. No illeterate mass falls for secularism. But don`t argue on that point, for, some pakistanis believe otherwise. For insecure pakistanis, this is the holy grail never to be touched or doubted. Confident pakistanis do not shy from admitting any such dichotomy. It does not threaten the existence of paksitan in their minds.

I`d rasied this observed Vs. so called intended destiny of paksitan because an expert from bihar raised something similar for the origin of bihar. Namely , that the formation of bihar was the result of british interference without any linguitic or other reason. All other states in india have a sense of nationalism for their respective states because they are based on languages and a unique history. This sense of uniqueness impels to a great extent, the formation of an identitiy within the indian union which can be recognised today. Before my pakistani friends jump pn this analogy, let me just add that, I`m not comparing todays pakistan with bihar in anything else except their sense of lack of clear direction and to some extent identity. It is a result of imposed ideology on the population, which finds no basis to be separate from U.P. in terms of language or culture.

Anyways, Good luck on your endeavor.

Adios