A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed # 30,

````But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``, was your main point of the post, then I hope you will at least agree that this main point was well hidden inside a heap of hand-wringing about Revathy writing this article``

I disagree with your assertion and repeat that you`ve read is what u wanted to.

``So, instead of getting into the nonsense of looking into the past, I suggest you look to the future ``

Are u trying to put words in my mouth? Please refrain from blind accusations. You are the one who has brought babri, medieval ages and everything else you can pile upon here. I;m trying to suggest an absence of justice and proper law and order in scenarios like this in independent india.

The crux of my post on this board has been the denial of safety, security and justice to the people of india. Periodically, the victims have been muslims, sikhs and hindus too. The perpetrators have changed from congress goons to BJP to leftists (naxal violence in Andhra and Bengal). It does not solve anything to jump up and down calling names to someone. I think in my post #23 i made this amply clear. I would be happy to see someone come up with evidence to prosecute the modis, advanis and others. BUT WHERE IS THE GOD DAMN EVIDENCE. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ALL THE JOURNALISTS OF THE WORLD? Iknow that jgdish tytler, sajjan kumar and HKL Bhagat were tried in court for their role in 84 riots. Why not modi.

This empty and useless rhetoric of communalism in the US does not bring justice to anyone. Jagdish tytler is a minister in the government today and has been to the US. I did not see anyone protesting against him when he clearly ahd a role to play in the riots. The victims of godhra openly expressed disdain and contempt for the BJP for being used by them to create a political stir. But nothing happened after that. Life just goes on. A few people like you in india just feel happy to call names to compensate for their dearth of any ideas or ways to avoid such things in the future. Yes this is the future I`m talking about. I don`t bel;ieve you read my post 23 also and gave a knee jerk reaction to it.

And about pakistan bending ove backwards to US or even china, there`s nothing new about it. The determination to explode N. Bombs has nothing to do with compliance with US. It just has to do with reacting to indian bomb explosions. And the US never really put any pressure on Pakistan against misslile or bomb development. They had turned a blind eye to it all for a long time. If they wanted to, one phone call to your general and he would have been up, saluting and doing the turn around as he did for taleban, jihadis, AQ Khan or others. Your nation has been ridden by US for far too long willingly at the hands of your own rulers. And there`s nothing wrong with that. Except that such a thing occurs only to the nations who do not value freedom and independence. And nations that value such ideals do so, due to winning freedom the hard way, by sheding their blood and sweat.

One more thing Tahmed, I think you have decided not to read my post as I can see and respond with your biases. I do not believe that my name calling to any numbers of murderous politcians be they in the garb of hindutva, secularism, islamism, naxalism etc. is going to do any good. But i do believe that the only way good can be done is perhaps by ensuring that people with any ideals are simply incapable of destroying a single life or property in india. And for that reason i`d rather hear critcism of the administration and ways to fix it. And equally important, prosescution of the guilty in an exemplary fashion, that no one in future would dare to think on those lines. It`s just my observation, that denying visa to one ass, who does not deserve publicity, is definitely not doing any good to the victims. May be a few impotent people feel powerful this way of rendering justice to the victims.

Adios

If I`ve come across somewhat annoyed, please excuse me for that.

A Good Reason To Cheer Did not intend to post it twice.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

``Instead of rallying to the defence of the criminals of your society....``

Once again Tahmed you`ve decided not to read my post # 7. The main point of my reply # is ``But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``
I`m amazed that I`m having to cut & paste from the same response to show you, that I consider it the incompetence of indian governing machine to met out justice to any victim. Further, in my opinion, as I`d posted a long time back, After godhra massacare, the authorities should have hunted down the train attackers and tried them. But in no way should they have allowed riots to break out. Murder of a thousand innocents does not serve justice to the dead in godhra station. It is that simple, and I hold the authorities in gujarat responible for that.
Having said that, I would have liked to see all of such activists and journalists to come forward and expose the police inaction and complicity with the politicians. Calling names and lobbying for visa denial is the path loosers take. The example of Teesta stelvad has complicated any hopes for justice to the victims. These people have their own axe to grind and create an emotional atmosphere which usually buries the truth. Gujarat is not the first time in the histoy of india. Anti-sikh riots and before that jabalpur (due to the hindus migrating from E.Pakistan) are just a few similar examples. The standard response in all such scenarios has been muddling the issue by excessive emotional rhetoric of religion, caste or political ideology splashed across the newspapers in india. Politicians, who are responsible for maintaining law and order usually keep quiet deliberately and let the mobs do their bidding. I hope you are well aware that in countries like US, no state or federal elected rep. controls the police force. In places like India the balls of police force are directly in the hands of politicians. Without the order of a politician, a cop cannot raise his voice. Despite that, there have been cases (the famous case of operation gangajal in bihar) where honest cops have tried to break this control of criminals from the society without much success. Even today, if a cop were to be ordered to stop so,mething he/she would do so to his her best. I`m surprised with the incompetnce not just of the administrative mchinery of india, but also the pathetic lack of originality and will of the so called journalists and reporters of india to uncover anything that could stick to modi and his people. If there was any, by now he would have been prosecuted. Remember, Narimhan Rao one of the best PM`s of India was tried for bribing MP`s. Whats stopping these name calling passionate individuals from pulling him in court. Quite simple, their own incompetence. Reason and passion are not exactly the best of the friends. And no one knows that better than the first & fourth pillar of democracy in our country.

Above all this, I do not consider USA to be the supreme court of the world. I would be happier to see people trying to bring justice to their own people, than looking upto a foreign country for acceptance within, while remianing in denial of the truth at home.

I wish these NRI` had spent half their energy during Modi`s r-election to defeat him, raise funds agianst him, bring him to justice. But I`ll never be the one to accept a foreigners system of judging for my country`s criminal also. And I was happy to see that the GOI responded with maturity to this fracas.

May be you pakistanis are quite used to americans telling you what to do. We`re not. That is one reason more than any that separates indians from pakistanis.

Adios


Revathy,

You are a good writer. My reaction to your article is perhaps best summed up in this post. I`m sure though (and hope so) you`ll continue to write as per your opinions. No offence to you.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

``Instead of rallying to the defence of the criminals of your society....``

Once again Tahmed you`ve decided not to read my post # 7. The main point of my reply # is ``But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. ``
I`m amazed that I`m having to cut & paste from the same response to show you, that I consider it the incompetence of indian governing machine to met out justice to any victim. Further, in my opinion, as I`d posted a long time back, After godhra massacare, the authorities should have hunted down the train attackers and tried them. But in no way should they have allowed riots to break out. Murder of a thousand innocents does not serve justice to the dead in godhra station. It is that simple, and I hold the authorities in gujarat responible for that.
Having said that, I would have liked to see all of such activists and journalists to come forward and expose the police inaction and complicity with the politicians. Calling names and lobbying for visa denial is the path loosers take. The example of Teesta stelvad has complicated any hopes for justice to the victims. These people have their own axe to grind and create an emotional atmosphere which usually buries the truth. Gujarat is not the first time in the histoy of india. Anti-sikh riots and before that jabalpur (due to the hindus migrating from E.Pakistan) are just a few similar examples. The standard response in all such scenarios has been muddling the issue by excessive emotional rhetoric of religion, caste or political ideology splashed across the newspapers in india. Politicians, who are responsible for maintaining law and order usually keep quiet deliberately and let the mobs do their bidding. I hope you are well aware that in countries like US, no state or federal elected rep. controls the police force. In places like India the balls of police force are directly in the hands of politicians. Without the order of a politician, a cop cannot raise his voice. Despite that, there have been cases (the famous case of operation gangajal in bihar) where honest cops have tried to break this control of criminals from the society without much success. Even today, if a cop were to be ordered to stop so,mething he/she would do so to his her best. I`m surprised with the incompetnce not just of the administrative mchinery of india, but also the pathetic lack of originality and will of the so called journalists and reporters of india to uncover anything that could stick to modi and his people. If there was any, by now he would have been prosecuted. Remember, Narimhan Rao one of the best PM`s of India was tried for bribing MP`s. Whats stopping these name calling passionate individuals from pulling him in court. Quite simple, their own incompetence. Reason and passion are not exactly the best of the friends. And no one knows that better than the first & fourth pillar of democracy in our country.

Above all this, I do not consider USA to be the supreme court of the world. I would be happier to see people trying to bring justice to their own people, than looking upto a foreign country for acceptance within, while remianing in denial of the truth at home.

I wish these NRI` had spent half their energy during Modi`s r-election to defeat him, raise funds agianst him, bring him to justice. But I`ll never be the one to accept a foreigners system of judging for my country`s criminal also. And I was happy to see that the GOI responded with maturity to this fracas.

May be you pakistanis are quite used to americans telling you what to do. We`re not. That is one reason more than any that separates indians from pakistanis.

Adios


Revathy,

You are a good writer. My reaction to your article is perhaps best summed up in this post. I`m sure though (and hope so) you`ll continue to write as per your opinions. No offence to you.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed,

I think I made my point in #7. You have decided to interpret in the way that suits your opinion of all indians. Any label based on anyones opinions does not bother me much.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer Tahmed #10,

(``pseudo-secularist`` as maharana calls you ``)

You got me there. Now, show me the word pseudo secularist from my post. For your convenience, here`s my post-

``It appears to me that the chowkidars are really happy pedalling drivel for one ass who does not deserve so much publicity.

Revathy,

I just saw farzana`s name on the related article and the number of interacts there with. It was enough to tell me what`s going on that board. On chowk, its enough to read the authors name to know the quality of content most of the times. But you tripped me.

Could u please inform, why most of us indians take pride in washing our dirty laundry in US, while other nations never follow the same pattern? Has it something to do with our colonial hang over or inferirority complex? I don`t know. Heck even Idi amin was a chhadi yaar of white house ninnys once upon a time. But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. We were colonised once for the same mentality, but my guess is that it wasn`t enough.

A person like me would have appreciated all riots investigated and justice done within our country. Incidents like this should have inspired journalists and social activists to suggest ways to avoid such a catastrophe. As oppose to focussing our energies on governance and law, armchair activists have actually given life to modi`s sinking popularity. He`s more famous and known in gujarat now then ever. He doesn`t give a damn for what americans think as long as it can be made an issue so he gets re-elected. And to boot he`s a dalit, which too will be played very well by vested interests. ``

Next time onwards, read my post before heaping any insinuation.

Adios

A Good Reason To Cheer It appears to me that the chowkidars are really happy pedalling drivel for one ass who does not deserve so much publicity.

Revathy,

I just saw farzana`s name on the related article and the number of interacts there with. It was enough to tell me what`s going on that board. On chowk, its enough to read the authors name to know the quality of content most of the times. But you tripped me.

Could u please inform, why most of us indians take pride in washing our dirty laundry in US, while other nations never follow the same pattern? Has it something to do with our colonial hang over or inferirority complex? I don`t know. Heck even Idi amin was a chhadi yaar of white house ninnys once upon a time. But lets not rejoice at our incompetence to uphold law and serve justice to any or all citizens of india by having another country pass verdict on him. We were colonised once for the same mentality, but my guess is that it wasn`t enough.

A person like me would have appreciated all riots investigated and justice done within our country. Incidents like this should have inspired journalists and social activists to suggest ways to avoid such a catastrophe. As oppose to focussing our energies on governance and law, armchair activists have actually given life to modi`s sinking popularity. He`s more famous and known in gujarat now then ever. He doesn`t give a damn for what americans think as long as it can be made an issue so he gets re-elected. And to boot he`s a dalit, which too will be played very well by vested interests.

Adios

What is Secularism? Gill Sahab,

You chose a very pertinent topic to discuss and laid it out quite well. But as I`d said earlier, anything on this board regarding secularism raises a dust cloud within the pakistani community. There would be none of this, if at least some kind of foundation was laid early on in the life of pakistan.

``As an example of secularism with a local spin, Indian secularism is a good instance. According to wikipedia (2), “In India........... ``

Here again we see the development of a system that went hand and glove with the way the founding fathers fought the british. Before independence the literacy level of india was pathetically low and the concept of secularism alien to their thinking and culture. There was no way in hell, gandhi could have rallied the masses in the name of a concept unkown to them. Hence he appropriately used the concept of equal recognition to all religions, which later on becomne our version of secularism.
I think the clamour for uniform civil code is more from BJP and allies. That has been one of their election manifestos always. Congress has always shied away from it. But hopefully, with increasing literacy and awareness of rights, people will seek for a uniform civil code.

Adios

Prize and Prejudice Freethinker,

The reason for highlighting todays tendency of relying on journal articles is simply the quality of articles. If you pick up most of the journals and check, you can see how well their articles measure up against good quality artcilces which are fewer in number. Also take a peek at the Academia in the US. The motivation for getting published sometimes is also to get tenured. Hence the quality of articles suffer.

As for the Nobel in Mathematics is concerned, I think the whole world is aware of that. I am also aware of the fact that Reimann lived much before Nobel came into effect. Besides, my appreciation for Reimannian mathematics exists only because I`ve had the pleasure of taking certain courses dealing extensively with related math. Once you realise what he has done and proposed non-euclidean geometry with curved continuum, it was easy enough to apply that. In the absence of such math framework, where would general relativity stand? Had it not been for similar mathematicians to create and prove the validity of such math models by logical consistency, no physicist can ever apply such theorems to explain the real world phenomenon. Your statement that Reimann is quoted too is correct, but he;s not even remotely as popular as einstein. Except for people in science or technical disciplines, his contributions to the foundation of relativistic math are not known. The reason for that is not nobel prize alone, but a lack of appreciation of his work by the media which remains grossly ignorant about contributions of mathematicins generally.

You are well aware of course that in theorectical physics, without the proof of experiment, its only the mathematical foundation which makes or breaks the theory. theories of physics often become a special case of a more generalised theory only due to new developments in mathematics. The same is not true for mathematics. Its the only discipline that builds upon previously proven theorems. Once a math theory is developed it stays unchanged for eternity as it depends upon logic alone. Had Reimann lived before Newton or galieleo, do you think the development of classical mechanics would have remained the same?

I use continuum mechanics and finite element analysis routinely for my work. I know that you are an engineer too. Most of the engineers I come across in Aerospace industry inevitably get drawn towards mathematics for its sense of finality and ability to provide a complete understanding of any phenomenon. But I guess we`ll differ on the importance of physics Vs. Math with respect to each other. we all have our inclinations. We should discuss about that in detail some other time, lest we should hijack your board into something else.

Adios

Prize and Prejudice Mohammed Gill,

This was a well written peice on an excellent topic.

While it is true that Nobel committee members have been biased for many reasons, finally it is also upto the people and media to give Nobel prize the importance it deserves. It should be a sobre reminder to people judging works only by the awards, about the merits of such a thinking. Einstein at least published his work in journals, Darwin did not even do that. He published his work by way of writing his famous book ``Origin of Species``. In a world today where in scientists are obsessed with publishing their works in a journal as a mark of originality, fewer path breaking theories are emerging.

Ironically, where you feel Einstein was ``cheated`` vis a vis his work on relativity (both special and general) with regards to getting a Nobel, Reimann who laid the mathematical foundation for the non-euclidean geometry rarely gets mentioned for the same work. Somehow, I`m getting more and more inclined to believe that physicists connect the dots created by mathematicians. You must read both Reimann and Poincare`s work to know how they state mathematically pretty much what einstein applied to theorize about the universe.

Hope the world starts recognising that more often too.

Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Shishapa,

I think you are quite new here.

Let me inform you about a couple of things you may have already observed on chowk. It is hard for indians or pakistanis to accept the ground realities of their respective countries. This site merely becomes a way to posture, even if you come with the intenetion of asking anything with genuine interest.

On the issue of the origin of pakistan, secularism etc. you can debate this point to death, but will not get an honest reply due to the inability of people to look at their respective founding fathers as anything but human. The interpersonal dynamics and individual personalities of various leaders contributed more than anything else to the birth of paksitan.
The mask of any ideology given to justify this was meant to arouse the masses with the most common denominator. In our sub-continent, religion has been made just that. No illeterate mass falls for secularism. But don`t argue on that point, for, some pakistanis believe otherwise. For insecure pakistanis, this is the holy grail never to be touched or doubted. Confident pakistanis do not shy from admitting any such dichotomy. It does not threaten the existence of paksitan in their minds.

I`d rasied this observed Vs. so called intended destiny of paksitan because an expert from bihar raised something similar for the origin of bihar. Namely , that the formation of bihar was the result of british interference without any linguitic or other reason. All other states in india have a sense of nationalism for their respective states because they are based on languages and a unique history. This sense of uniqueness impels to a great extent, the formation of an identitiy within the indian union which can be recognised today. Before my pakistani friends jump pn this analogy, let me just add that, I`m not comparing todays pakistan with bihar in anything else except their sense of lack of clear direction and to some extent identity. It is a result of imposed ideology on the population, which finds no basis to be separate from U.P. in terms of language or culture.

Anyways, Good luck on your endeavor.

Adios

Intimacies Remapped Harish,

This was a wonderful and a moving narrative closer to reality at home. Thanks for sharing these personal moments with everyone here.

Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Romair # 316,
That was a fairly objective response. Thanks.
More later.

Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Tahmed # 312,

``vision of a secular, democratic Pakistan is the one that will prevail``. Everyone hopes for that.

``The answer clearly lies in concerns of perpetual hindu domination``.

I beg to differ with you. This is the line and view propagated in paksitan to justify its existence. In the absence of real repression taking in india at the hands of the hindus, this is a saleable line. Subhash C. Bose differed with congress and gandhi in particular. He differed with their methods and policies. That did not lead him to raise the bogey of bengalis being at the forefront of freedom movement and hence a separate land. A linguistic card could have been used, instead he chose to follow his method and fight to oust the british. I think history is clear that he did not land up in petty fights and ego clashes with the congress wallas. That is the recourse loosers take, not men of purpose and focus.

Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Tahmed and Romair,

Thanks for understanding my point. It was not meant to score a point on the issue of nationalism, but a mere observation pointing to reality. This dichotmoy in my view exists, and unless the people of pakistan confront it head on, to decide a course, pakistan may continue to live at the mercy of whoever claims to be its saviour.

Manto,

Tahmed and Romair represent on most issues two ends of pakistani viewpoints. They have both been able to understand this contradiction I`m referring to. Thats proof enough, that reading too many books burdens your capability to think orginally.
You can refuse to accept it and live in the country you think was founded upon the most noble ideals ever. In the same way your mullah friends will continue to live in their world of ideal islamic state founded for islam and by islam. Next time also try to look up as to how a nation`s lawmakers decide to reject progressive women`s rights bill in your parliament. I`m sure they rejected the bill because it went against the ethos of buddhist ``culture``. With so many other minorities living in your country, your parliament is busy making laws to cater for them. Islam.... hell no we`ve got nothing to do with that. We`re as Stephen cohen put it `` people fleeing from oppression``.
Give this belony to someone your level in the same breath as `` we ruled the country for 1000 years before the british arrived`` and somehow got oppressed thereafter by the hindus, sikhs and everybody else. I`d a little appreciation for certain historical viewpoints you`d presnted earlier. But now I realise that it was all to live in a world of self denial about pakistan. You have covered everything else under the sun but a comment on my simple query. What I was hoping for was an honest answer, but you showed pavlovian reaction with nationalism, comments about feeble mindedness and stupid simiplicity. This would be the last time I interact with you. But since you raised some points, I`ll answer them for you...


``The contradiction you refer to is not a contradiction. A minority, disillusioned by the majority, separates... ``

In all such cases, people of the respective countries have gone to create their own constitution and stick by it. How they could stick on to whatever they`d decided, I can now understand, must be a mystery to you. To people outside of your world, its not much of a mystery. Its a case what they wanted to, they stuck to it and achieved, whether a religious state or otherwise. I gave the example of iran, just so that you understand, that i`m not casting a judgement upon their way of governance. Obviously that was not enough for you. Take the case of bangladesh, how come they are sticking to what they wanted, while you are frothing at the mullahs and vice versa.

``Let us imagine if Jinnah had not switched to the Pakistan idea ..........

So it was the ``Indian Muslims`` or ``Muslims of South Asia`` that formed a nation .... and not ``Muslims of the world``.


To your hypothetical scenario, which I`d never alluded to , I would like to tell you that there`s more diversity in india then just based on religion. People from far corners of the country are reaching the position of power even if they belong to different ethnicity/caste/religion or language group. It has taken time for this to happen. But largely has happened due to people`s willingness to be persistent and fight for their rights. Communal and caste based incidents still do happen, but there`s a system in place and people fight for their rights because the law of the land supports them. The creation of pakistan was still not suffcicient to safeguard the interests of the fellow muslims in E.Bengal. Forget secularism, try to get your people to stop killing each other in the name of anything. And understand, that creation of a separate state does not guarantee the rights of anyone, be it US, India or Pakistan. Chances are, in an undidvided india, there would be a grand institute with Abdus salaam`s name and many more muslims doing better than Aziz premji or Yousef hamid. I`m sure there would be communal problems with similar if not greater intensity too. But thats something we indians are willing to admit and fight against until we create a better tomorrow. BECAUSE WE UPHOLD A CONSTITUION CREATED BY INDIANS FOR INDIANS. You got nothing to uphold. Just your idol jinnah and his ideal that he could never sell to his own country men. What`s the point of his greatness if he could not communicate his idelas to anyone worthy in paksitan. Do you think there`s a reason behind it after all? Wait, there`s a benefit though in blaming the mullahs the army and the previous generation, it hides our unmanliness, top it all with blistering write ups on the noblest intentions of pakistan. Ladies and gentlemen I present to you a modern pakistani of Manto stereotype. Quote me a hundered more books now.

``Why is it that without exception every singe proponent of the Islamic state in Pakistan was at the time of partition allied with the Congress Party?``

And amazingly enough, RSS or other Hindu fanatic parties were not allied with congress. They opposed congress as hard as they could. And yet the largest party in india by virtue of being allied with islamic parties were repressing the muslim populace, which was enough of a cause to create pakistan with the noblest intentions, only to land up making love to these islamic parties. What a mess... This must be the best soap God ever produced. But I think the credit should go to people like Manto and mullahs too who are still playing kabaddi with jinnah`s ideals. People like me are just nuts, wondering aloud why this kabaddi for the last 57 years without any decision. Please don`t tell me its because Mushy`s Tushy is the match umpire currently. That has been a historic excuse in pakistan`s politics.

To reply to your question....Could it be, that the islamists had better IQ then secular muslim idealists, and believed that they stood a better chance to fight for their rights as a larger and unified block? Don`t know, just guessing. Only Manto knows the answer though.


``a Pakistan that was supposed to be a Modern democracy with sovereignty resting with people ``

Aap abhi bhi yahin khade hain, democracy or sovereignity kaa jhandaa lekar, Aur aapke bangladeshi bhai uska lutf uthaa rahe hain. They don`t even quote jinnah for their democracy. I get a sinking feeling that wherever jinnah put his ideals to practice, a huge mess was created. Now its upto you, whether you wanna blame his followers or his leadership.

Don`t take all of the above personally.


Adios

Why We Need Islamization of Science Tahmed # 282,

Religion is the cause for division is a well known fact. But to separate from a secular party (congress) to form a communal party in the name of secularism continues to bedevil pakistan. This contradiction has repeatedly shown itself throughout the history of pakistan.
Unfortunately for most pakistanis it is hard to explain that a communal party (congress in their minds) could deliver a secular constitution while there counterparts in pakistan have been going to the other extreme.
More later.
Adios