Are Secularism and Islam Incompatible? Sameer, thanks for your reply. Islamism in the old sense is totally directionless and lost, the extremists try invoking a abck t basics concept as means of revival forgetting the positive lessons of Muslim History. I am also well aware of the facts you cited..about how intelelctually bereft Muslim states are, and how they now represent an exclusive system..which discriminates ..rather than an incluisve system which promotes equality.

I am a democrat by instinct..and believe violence should be avoided...but when it comes towards progressive movements in Pakistan for example..I end up agreeing more with the MMA`s offical statements than I do with the PPP, although I know from first hand experience what the MMA lot stand for..I see nobody else who is not taking orders from GHQ or Jeddah or London. I really don`t see any present day succes stories of secularism. Organised religion whenever it confronts secularism nowadays..wins...secularism seems to be asosciated everywhere with corruption and incompetence..money grabbing exploitation and cruelty.

Now that may seem a exaggeration...and at the same time personally I have the highest respect for the ideals of the magna carta..and countless concepts associated with Western Secularism. But, I think while Democracy and Islam are compatible..I think Secularism and Islam aren`t...neither belief system can tolerate the supremacy fo the other... case in point the approach of Secular states to Islam recently.

Are Secularism and Islam Incompatible? The irony is that secularsim has failed in ensuring peace, and has failed in treating people equal..while at a more National Level, if you look at various moderate Islmaist groups across the World they have been far more successful in being pro people than any of the ``secular`` groups. Look at the FIS and Virtue Party in Turkey, they were successful because of their commitment to social justice and ensuring law and order. The fact of the matter is secularism has lost it`s bearings... and considering the level of Islamophobia I have seen in the West since September 11th..I believe secularists with access to power will use it against Islam.

Are Secularism and Islam Incompatible? I find many firm Secularists have a deep seated dislike for Islam, more so than any other religion, essentially because of the fact that it does offers an alternative system.

Muslims may have made mistakes in the past, but they have nothing in their history comparing to the carnage secularism has inflicted on mankind with it`s communism, Fascism, holocausts and pogroms.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Omair, Again some comments of mine, the PPP did win seats in NWFP in the 1970`;s and also polled a respectable number of votes (if I rememebr it was well over the double digits)even now if you combine the PPP seats in NWFP they`d be the second largest parliamentry party after the MMA.It has also often wo the odd seat provincial one in Baluchistan..

Secondly I don`t think you can discount the PPP as the dominant party, lacking it`s main crowd puller the party did not contest th election as actively as it could have.

Thirdly, when you combine the vote of all the PML`s you forget they all contested a large number of seats, combined they had more candidates on the field, so in the First past the Post system you can expect a higher number of votes to be shown in that mainstream group which had the most candidates. Using the same argument one should include all the PPP components vote and I am fairly certain the combined PPP would have been the largest party in votes polled and seats bagged.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Mantolive said:The seats as you might recall are divided in such a way that every Pakistani has equal representation and that is why NWFP has so few seats compared to say Punjab in the NA... Zakk`s claim that they are smaller is almost as big a lie as his/her other lie about the Afghan refugees

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Not exactly true, Karachi represents 10% of the population but I believe has fewer seats, Pakistans seats are not evenly distributed on the basis of population, if that was true why does Maulana Fazlur Rehman (aka Diesal) poll over 100,000 from his ancestral seat in DI Khan and the winner in my home town poll 15,000 seats? (with the approx same turnout?)

My ``lie`` as you so colourfully say about the afghan refugees is again interesting, have you been to Peshawar? I used to live there and still have relatives there, in some sub urban areas you would be lucky to hear anything other than Dari. I don`t deny the afghan refugee vote, but let`s not blow it out of proportion.

Also the MMA has achieved National Status, it won seats in every province, noticeably it has done well in places like Islamabad and Rawalpindi as well. While the PML(N) has ceased to exist as a National party and is essentially an ethnic Punjabi party now (with a smattering of Pashtuns and Baluchis)

None of this detracts from the fact that the PPP is essentially the only opposition Party that has true broad based appeal, and by right should be the offical opposition...but when discussing impartially facts one mustn`t rule out the unique success of the MMA.

Lastly, Omair: Pervaiz Musharraf himself stated on National television that the 1990 and 1997 elections were rigged. Sadly whenever the Pakistan establishment rigs elections they overdo it..the result was the IJI and the heavy mandate.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Actually 68 seats does make sense, seats are smaller in NWFP and Baluchistan and voter tunrout is lower, in the First Past the post system, results like the MMA are not totally surprising consider the PPP won West Pakistan with only 39% of the vote. I don`t deny certain elements in the government did promote the MMA but the electoral wave was not something anyone predicted.

I am not to sure about the Afghani refugee population you mentioned as well. A significant number of the Afghani population in Pakistan that have NID cards are at least in Peshawar area, Farsi speaking and not exactly pro MMA.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Wasn`t Javed Hashmi responsible for the firing the first AK 47 in a Pakistani University?

The MMA did poll the highest number of votes in two of the 4 Provinces. One of the reasons why the MMA hasn`t jumped ship and joined the government is that it`s leaders are staying anti establishment in the hope they can duplicate their success in Punjab.

Omair: your list of Gohar Ayubs relatives was quite comprehensive..I think you missed out Gohar Ayub`s, wife she was elected as an MNA this time around as well. But, to assume the family is one homogenus entity is a bit of jump! Also yes they are related through marraige to the Bilours as well to several generals.

The term Feudal does not neccessarily mean Land Lords, we do have Industrial feudals nowadays, the Sharifs and Chaudhrys of Gujarat could be seen as an example of that, Feudalism in the old sense exists in a relatively smaller area now, Southern Punjab, parts of Baluchistan and interior Sindh...

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the MMA, and what it stands for, one thing it is not..is Feudal. The bulk of the MMA candidates who won ..did not do so on Tribal or Feudal or a financial basis. The only group which campaigned on an ``anti honour killing,`` anti exchange`` marraiges and ``anti blood feud`` platform was the MMA. The PPP may have represented an anti feudal group at one time, but through the hard work of it`s own leadership it is distinctly feudal now...

Lastly, do these Omair swipes have anything to do with feudalism? It seems people associate Omair with a reprsentative of the Amred forces of Pakistan? He is speaking from his own individaul perspective, that maybe flawed..but that doesn`t make personal (and rude) attacks anymore enlightening.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan I think many of the attacks on Omair are in bad taste. Argue with ideas but stooping to personal attacks reflects more on oneself.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan rozaiba: You are right about the PTI, you can`t rule out anything in Pakistan. 9-11 transformed the religo-political parties into a major electoral force despite many of it`s leaders having been unable to winn seats for over a decade. And lets not forget Pakistan is a country where unknowns like Jamali can be made PM.

The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan Interestingly in the recent elections the urban voters overwhelmingly voted anti government. The PML(Q) does not exist minus the odd lota or seats bought, in Pakistans urban areas, Urban Punjab overwhelmingly voted for Nawaz Sharif. I`d chalk up much of the PTI`s failure to poor organisation the party has been hit by repeated accusations of being run dictatorially and badly managed. There is another problem as wlel, due to the name identification of Imran Khan, some voters get turned of from vioting for other candidates. In case of Mianwali while he won his seat with a comfortable margin his provincial candidate lost , something similar happened to the MMA, people vote for the Mullah,, generally more in National Seats...so if you look at the MMA`s performance it`s national appeal was far greater than it`s provincial appeal.

Message in the Bubble Burst 49: Romair, Ata Ur Rehman has been reappointed S&T Minister

We Cut When Asked -- PTCL’s New Censoring Role Nadeem: I think your referring to Azim Daudpota the Air Force Chief and former Governor Sindh?

Pakistan Today Whats wrong with Pakistani leaders, why do they absolutely beliee they are indispensable?

Our Racism One of the best examples of racism is the use of the word ``Pathans`` No pashtun/Pakhtun calls himself a Pathan.

My Critique of Lt. Gen. Tauqir Zia’s Article If a General in charge of campaign, for 3 years failed at the final hurdle disastrously. Almost every country in the World would either fire him or expect him to resign. The team that went to the World Cup was Zia`s baby, he`d nurtured them for 3 years, with an absolute free hand. I believe the PCB`s constitution was suspended in that time.

Zia has made some good dismissals and appointments since the World Cup defeat. but he should do the morally right thing and quit.