Another Attempt on Musharraf hamidm, (#245) now you`ve gone and done it - I resent that remark mightily (or as Yogi Berra might say: I resemble that remark!) - weighing in as I do at a decent 75 kilograms or so (and 90% of it muscle, I might add!) even though I have yet to grow a handlebar moustache to rival my uncle`s, I`m still as much a wadera as he - but NOT a fat wadera!

Another Attempt on Musharraf Vertex #174 - Now, this is interesting - and if true, then it puts the onus squarely upon Muslims themselves to resolve the hijab (and other various issues bedevilling the many hapless ones in teh Ummah). Which can only be good!

Mohar11 - no probs! My wirtings reflect my speech (which may lose some of the `easier` aspect in a written mode) - I was just in an intense discussion mode, with no risk at all to my arteries (other than that posed by the Nihari breakfast!)
Regardless, we can continue the hijab discussion if you like (have to leave for the day right now, though) because it looks like I have not yet conveyed my point, nor my outlook. Hope to talk some more soon ...

Another Attempt on Musharraf Forgive me, Mohair11, but am I not writing in English? Let me try again:
The banning or not banning of the hijab is not the issue nor is it important to me. The fact that the French government has chosen to apply it to a single, SPECIFIC group i.e Muslims, makes it biased, discriminatory and prejudiced. The claim made in justification of it was that no religious group should stand apart from the ``group`` French culture (I am paraphrasing here, but this is the gist of it.) If so, then the banning should apply EQUALLY to ALL groups. I chose to use the Jewish yamaluke as an example.
Yes, Mohair11, this is VERY simple: You must read my post again and read it clearly. I couldn`t care less about the legality/illegality of the hijab. What I have been pointing out again and again is the biased discrimination in the French approach. That is the heart of the argument, the crux of my position, the bees knees, the cream in the creampuff, the mango in the chutney, the code in the software application. How else can I phrase it??
Chusni, you are right - this is exactly what I am alluding to: that the French will have to ban all kinds of other symbols as well in order to be fair.
Anew, that was a great paragraph from Akbar Ahmed - a man and writer I respect very much.

Another Attempt on Musharraf mohar11 #157
``Well - if hijab is not required in Islam - then just remove it - why is then so much brouhaha ? Any case - It is islam and muslims that need serious reformation - banning hijab and other such symbols of muslim backwardness is a good start.
Why should that be contingent upon anything that jews do? May be Jewish cap is a requirement for Judaism. ``

Mohar11, I specifically chose to single out the Jewish yarmaluke because it falls squarely in the same realm as the wearing of the scarf. Do a search (as I did) and you will find that the most commonly known and recognized piece of Jewish garb (the yarmulke) is actually the one with the least religious significance.
It is an ancient practice for Jews to cover their heads during prayer, to show respect for God, but other than that there is no special significance to the yarmulke.
As to the removal of the hijab - that is exactly what I have said: that there is no requirement for it in Islam. It is only the narrow, restricted interpretations of certain groups that have forced it upon women in the present sense. In the traditional sense it actually has great value: for example, when the Crusaders came into contact with the Arab culture, one of the things that the ladies of the knights were struck by was the special feminine significance it provided for the Arab women: Modesty, a certain protectiveness and a sense of honor conveyed to the woman. They adopted the veil based on what they say in the Middle Eastern women. Sadly, we do not look at it in the same way today. (This, by the way, can be read in Karen Armstrong and AnneMarie Schimmel`s books)
It is not Islam that needs reformation - it is our interpretation that is at fault. You cannot throw out the baby with the bath water - you have to re-evaluate where our OWN interpretations have fallen short, and re-assess.
So, I restate: Making the hijab illegal in France is biased, prejudicial and discriminatory - it is aimed specifically and ONLY against Muslims. UNLESS (as I said before) they do the just, fair and balanced thing and make other religious attire (such as the Jewish yarmulke) illegal as well.

Another Attempt on Musharraf sigalph235 (#115) - You are right - That statement of hypocritical duplicity is all too true among many of us, including those who are making a noise about the hijab ruling in France. I have absolutely no problem with the hijab being made illegal in France (it`s not a requirement in Islam anyway).
However, I do think the French now HAVE to be consistent in their ruling and make other such attire illegal as well - the wearing of the Jewish skullcap, for example. If they do not, then this is a case of discrimination and prejudice against Muslims - specifically and ONLY against Muslims. Any thoughts?

The Dueling Divas Antimason #47 - I don`t know NYC - I live in Sindh, in Pakistan. The albums I have are vinyl albums and I am not sure if these are released on CD.
Mercedes Sosa must be available even on CD, I think, because of her standing in Argentina as a national icon for her resistance to the ruling military junta who even jailed and then exiled her. The live rendition is when she returned to Argentina, and there she had the entire stadium on their feet, thousands pouring out their hearts in the roar of their voices as she sang, oh so hauntingly.
This particular version of Sibelius is the best I have heard of the Lemmenkainen Suite (and THE best work of Sibelius, in my humble opinion), Sibelius wrote the piece when he himself was dying of cancer, in the long months of winter in the far North of Finland, his own internal darkness matching the cold heaviness of the snow-laden skies outside, and then finding expression in the brooding mythological Norse legend of a black forest and river, of a sorceress who has enchanted a princess into a black swan and the prince who wages a battle against her ... you can hear the entire story in the orchestral pieces, down to the wild gallop through the wilderness, the loss he feels as he wanders alone, and the deeper, deeper grief of the swan/princess who is unable to express, unable to escape and unable to save him from dismemberment at the hands of the sorceress.
If you are willing to let your mind lose control to your heart ... :) ... then you might want to find el Lebrejano - Flamenco singing at its wildest! Again, there are certain of his performances that are just trancendental ... I have a live cassette recording of it.
Enjoy !

The Dueling Divas plats8 #45
I`ve visited the musicindiaonline.com quite a bit in the past - others I visit fairly often are:
http://classical.indianmuseek.com (has a lot of links) and http://www.mydesimusic.com.
Just as an aside, in case you want to hear some shockingly powerful music from other parts of the world, try these:

Mercedes Sosa (from Argentina) - Her live rendition of ``Gracias A LA Vida`` (this version is the one to listen to, sung in front of 60,000+ in a packed Argentinian soccer stadium) - this will make your hair stand up on end - and that is no exaggeration.

``Lemmenkainen Suite`` by Jean Sibelius (from Finland) - the version to listen to is the one by the Helsinki Philharmonic, conducted by Okko Kamu, on the Deutsche Grammaphon label. This is Finnish mythology set to classical music, dark and powerful.

The Dueling Divas plats8 #41
I`m glad I managed to convey some of my feelings about music and singers. I would like to know more of India`s truly great singers - I am one of the greatest lovers of music and don`t care where it comes from, as long as I feel it reach me. About Junoon - let me say only this: They do not have the years of a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan behind them - only time will tell if they live up to the promise they showed in `Parvaaz``. That is the difference here. I will give you another analogy: When I first heard ``New Year`s Day`` in `83 or so, I was stunned. I hunted down the album and got it. My good friend and classmate thought they were a one hit wonder, but all I could feel was the passion in both the singing and the guitar. Over time U2 has become one of rock`s greatest. And that is the key here: over TIME. I sense and feel the greatness within Junoon, but I cannot predict they will realize that potential. For that reason I will agree they do not belong with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan or Abida Parveen at this time - but I can tell you this: I`ve been in a few of their performances where they had us in `haal` - truly, truly memorable.

The Dueling Divas plats8 #33
I saw Noor Jehan sing classical pieces on two different concerts: One in 1970 in Lahore and another in Multan a little earlier. I believe the live recording of the Multan concert is available from Oriental Star. I wasn`t trying to say she was a better classical singer than this or that singer - merely that she had the talent for it - but her passion directed her elsewhere.
You are extrapolating my UK/USA analogy to well over the cliff`s edge - watch out! There is empty air below! The analogy points to the difference in singers (it had nothing to do with the film industry of India/Pakistan). It was an analogy - not a literal comparison.
Music appreciation can never be complete for anyone - not even for professional critics, because in the end we are limited by taste, however broad it may end up being. For me, there is only one purpose - NOT criteria, mind you- but `purpose`. And that purpose is realized only and only by my heart. My mind is seduced by words, verses, technical expertise, perfection of voice and harmonies - but it always takes second place to what occurs within my heart. There, Nusrat`s imperfect voice soars above all perfection, utterly submissive, absolutely powerful. There Abida Parveen and Pathana Khan and others like them reach for the Infinite King with heartbreaking simplicity, with no heroics and no trappings, but with a poignancy that is realized only by those who are giving. So too have Junoon performed beyond themselves - I was present in three such performances. Junoon finally arrived with their album `Parvaaz`, but we have to wait and see if they continue to let music be their Master.
I said it in my last post: bringing up classical music as the yardstick is meaningless because passion cannot be measured. It cannot be rebutted by comparing the quality of classical performers to ghazal singers, etc, because I am trying to put the light on the indescribable that takes place with certain singers but not others.

The Dueling Divas Antimason, and ahmadzai and plats8 - and mainly sridhar (various posts):
Something we have to keep in mind is that classical music is not the epitome or pinnacle of music any more than is blues or rock or ghazals. We are creatures who (thankfully!) have a variety of tastes. What does begin to separate truly great singers and music is their direct connection to the listeners - how far they can take the listener.
What I have seen is that classical music connoisseurs tend to like a more cerebral style versus those who listen to a more earthy, passionate style. So the argument about who is a better singer by virtue of their skill in ``classical`` singing is meaningless. I`ve had some of the best experiences of my life listening to Rais Khan, yet the `dhammal` in Sindh has to be seen to be believed in the throes of its passion. For the record, Noor Jehan could sing classical ragas with the best of them. But she transports us to a raw, naked place when she sings, naked because she strips you of all defences inspite of yourself. All great ones do that.
Yes, Indian films/music are watched and listened to a lot - but I have yet to see an audience transported so far and so completely as in a performance by, say, Pathana Khan or Ustad Rais Khan or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - and now with the newcomers like Hadiqa Kiyani, Junoon (when at their best), or Rahim Shah, etc.
I think people watch Indian films because they like them - it is that simple. They like to watch the dances, the actresses, the photography and technical quality etc - but I don`t think they are bowled over by the quality of the script or the song lyrics (not the general run-of-the-mill Indian movie anyway)
In many ways I see a similarity between India/Pakistan which is analagous to that between the UK/USA. The really great musicians and movies/dramas/actors/directors are largely British. The US productions are long on flash but have no substance. In music the old blues and rock greats of America seem to have faded away and the real creative talent seems to come from the small island of UK. I just wonder what happened.

The Dueling Divas Leaving aside patriotic impulses and personal prejudices, the only way to evaluate singers and musicians is by the effect they have upon you by their performance.
There are some songs by Lata which can really move you emotionally, but Noor Jehan can leave you literally emotionally ruptured - I`ve been in some of her performances where we were brought to near hysteria.
A singer and song is not constrained by political boundaries - the feelings they arouse are irretrievably expressed. Such was the power when Noor Jehan sang. Such was the case with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Such was the case with Pathana Khan. Such is the case with Abida Parveen. I hear amazing young singers every day, who incorporate western influences and instruments into their songs but who do not make the mistake of letting them dominate. Listen to Sajjad Ali or Junoon any day, or Hadiqa Kiyani`s ``Boohey Barian`` or ``Yaad Sajjan``...
Pakistan continues to produce real singers - I wonder what happened to the creativity of India`s music treasure? Is it because they have gone so deep into imitating western dances and music that it`s real heritage is being suffocated?

US Attack on Iraq: Just Do It! Hari (Re # 42) : I`m not sure what you were trying to say in your post. If you mean the US presence will be for longer than 2 years, then I will give a qualified agreement ... They will have a presence there behind a compliant Iraqi government. More important is the ramifications of this for the rest of the region. Other rulers in the region are also taking note, as are the ordinary people of those countries (as evidenced by the rising dislike of the US not just here but across the world)

US Attack on Iraq: Just Do It! Um .... and after the deed is done the ruler is to be Gen Franks - this according to the Christian Science Monitor:

US General to Run Iraq

February 13, 2003
The Christian Science Monitor
Cameron W. Barr

SULAYMANIYAH, IRAQ -– The head of the US military`s Central Command, Gen. Tommy Franks, will rule Iraq in the initial aftermath of a US invasion to overthrow President Saddam Hussein.
Administration officials briefed senators Tuesday on postwar planning, stressing that the US goal is ``to liberate Iraq, not to occupy it,`` and last week a US envoy told leaders of Iraqi groups opposed to Hussein about American intentions.
The senators were told that even under good circumstances, it would take two years before the military could fully transfer control to an Iraqi government. As presented, the plan recalls postwar Germany and Japan, where American military occupations paved the way for transfers of power to democratic and constitutionally backed governments.
...Rather than allying itself with Iraq`s opposition, an ambitious and fractious collection of exiles and dissidents, the US seems to be gambling that large segments of the Iraqi establishment will cooperate in a American-led effort to rehabilitate the country and reform its political system. Makiya says with evident disappointment that years of collaborative effort with US officials - including US funding, an act of Congress promoting Iraq`s ``liberation,`` and a ``democratic principles working group on Iraq`` backed by the State Department - are ``all down the drain.``
But the US approach may increase the comfort level of some US friends in the Arab world, who preside over autocratic regimes and who may be uneasy with an effort to create a Western-style democracy in their midst.
``What concerns us a lot,`` Chalabi says, ``is the perception of the Arab governments and their friends in Washington about the effect Iraq could have by its example on the future of the Arab world.``

Someone is making sure of a long term compliant government ...

The March of Folly Very interesting discussion, Romairr and FerozeK - The best yet on standing up to something and the reasons why one should stand up.
My very best wishes to you Romairr, and hope to hear a lot more from you. And (selfish on my part, I know) I`m glad you are here in Pakistan, FerozeK - I think we need you here.

Welcome back Sherdil - I am looking forward to your thoughts. But I thought you may want to consider another reason the US administration is pursuing the present path to war - it is a thought I`ve been mulling over for a few months now:
It`s because they have flat heads!! Have you noticed? Bush has a somewhat flat head, Rumsfield certainly does and Paul Wolfowitz, as does Richard Perle - and John Ashcroft has the flattest top of all! And under the hairdo, I think Ms Rice may as well. Powell is the only one who doesn`t, which may explain his balanced and reasonable outlook.
Just a thought ...

Kissinger of Death ``Chickenhawks`` .... (!!) (Re: Saminasha #3). Read this in the Star (which reprinted what the New Hampshire Gazette found about the Republicans):
President George Bush - a comfortable assignment near Texas, (courtesy of Bush Sr) in the Texas Air National Guard (service records never revealed)
Vice President Dick Cheney - no military service.
Defense Secretary. Don Rumsfeld - no military service.
Chief Pentagon hawks Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz - no military service.
Attorney General John Ashcroft - no military service.
Trent Lott, no military service. The New Hampshire Gazette also found that conservative commentators like Charles Krauthammer, Newt Gingrich, William Kristol, Michael Ledeen, Bill Reilly, George Will, Ken Adelman, and Rush Limbaugh - all with no known military service during Vietnam.
Seems like the one man demonstrating both backbone and courage was Tom Daschle (Democrat and veteran) who angrily demanded an apology from Bush (when Bush questioned the patriotism of the Democrats)
And interestingly, the one reasonable, balanced and moderate voice among the war-fever of the present administration comes from Colin Powell - and who can doubt his military credentials?

The April Fool Referendum arjun_m (#56) : The statement you make : ``The fact that people elected NS of their own free will makes the elections perfect.`` is not true. As we know all too well in the Feudal Lands of Pakistan - what the Feudal Lord dictates the poor serf/villager will do. NS and BB dictated, and the votes were obediently cast for them. Let`s not try to fool others by calling them ``free elections`` by ``free will``, let alone ``perfect`` !