Coming of Age I agree that topics like this are much more interesting than all the typical finger-pointing ``they started it`` bickering that consumes much of the Chowk boards.

To me, the first surprise came when Pakistanis kept moving up the demographics chart on the social networking site Orkut, where they are now at #4, behind Brazil (which has completely taken it over), the US, and Iran (another surprise).

I`m also intrigued by the online culture developing in Pakistan among the youth - they type in a shorthand which makes ebonics seems Shakespearean: ``juNoOn rulZ! Y oR y NoT?`` They type entire online conversations this way. I know it`s a mode of communication among American teens, but the fact that Pakistani teens have caught onto this to such an extent, where they`ve abandoned typing in normal English completely, caught me off guard.

However, all these Pak kids on line are obviously part of the ``haves``. The population of the ``have nots`` (esp. in terms of cyber access) in the country is much, much larger, so how this situation is remedied (if at all) will be interesting.

Now that the telecom companies have begun in earnest, it would be prudent to harness this and grow the IT/internet sector. While India hosts the Oracles, the Intels, the Siebels, etc. maybe Pakistan can concentrate in another arena - albeit it would need to build a brand new business district in Lahore, Karachi, or Islamabad to attract that kind of investment or interest. The fact that Yahoo just paid an insane amount of money for a stake in Alibaba.com shows the potential is there for such an industry to grow manyfold in Pakistan also. One can hope, atleast. ;-)

Watch out Brazil! Here we come!!! How is it that the Arabs left their religion in the region and not their fervor for football? Well, ok, there`s this whole colonialism thing that got in the way, but still, why`d the Brits have to leave South Asia with the non-global sports of cricket & field hockey and not football?

Financially, football makes the most sense for the region. All any kid needs is a ball to practice with. He (or she) can play in the street, kick against a wall, play on dirt, in grass, put two markings on the ground to designate a goal post, what have you. Much of Brazil`s youth plays this way, for they are as destitute as many Pakistani children, even worse off perhaps. The irony is a big chunk of the world`s soccer balls are actually made in Pakistan.

I have wondered about the Pakistan team starting a few months before World Cup 2002 began...did Pakistan have a team? How was it ranked? Who was it ranked behind? When I saw this country of 140 million ranked behind the Faroe Islands, a bunch of Norwegian islands with a population of about 60 thousand, I new something was really amiss. I debated this with my parents, who are brainwashed with the ``but Pakistan is good at cricket and what`s wrong with cricket?``

Cricket is limited to the Commonwealth, which is not really a global scene. I`ve never appreciated the game, as much as I`ve tried. Maybe it`s the tea and crumpet-ness of the whole thing. The euphoria of attending a soccer match is unlike any other sport, and it would be great to see an intra-Pakistan League form and see a Karachi vs. Lahore rivalry captivate the full attention of both cities, much like Real Madrid vs. FC Barcelona, Rio vs. Sao Paulo, etc. Had Pakistanis encountered this, they would begin to wonder why they just sat around watching hours long cricket series and drinking chai during the breaks. No time for chai or rooh-afza here! No sitting in the stands either. It`s all adrenaline.

It is all about marketing in the end. Making the sport seem cool to young boys, since anyone beyond the age of 10 is already lost. All it takes is a Ronaldo or a Beckham to start coming to the region and promoting the sport. There could be some amazing player potential with 1.4 billion people. Just a hunch. But beyond building players, it`s about building the fanbase (again, starting with the youth). Creating those local, marketable stars. Having an Urdu or Hindi-speaking sportscaster know how to vocally portray the excitement which is happening on the field, and how to yell and scream when a goal is made, a la Mexican television. The fact the India-Pakistan match series is happening is a start, though. I hope this trend has begun, and that Pakistan (and India) are ready to join 98% of the rest of the planet that actually appreciates the world`s ``most beautiful game.``

And yahyanoori, agreed: All the non-cricket players in Pakistan do deserve full kudos for keeping up with their sport, regardless that they get scant attention or money.

One Down Two to Go Saddam and Milosevic should be cellmates in The Hague and compare notes. ``Once upon a time, I was the biggest bad-ass in the world.`` ``No, I was, you dumb filthy Arab!`` ``Pardon me, but I was, you Serbian ingrate!``

All kidding aside, it`s remarkable to see how these paper kings crumple and fall. It`s good to see that this man will be brought to justice (hopefully by the Iraqis themselves, then by the Iranians and the Kuwaitis). The man had his forces commit atrocities - this can`t be overlooked no matter how shattered the Muslim world`s ego is right now. Sure, the man was secular, but can you be secular to a fault? France is now busy expelling girls simply for wearing the hijab because ``it`s not French to be religious in public.`` Maybe one day Baghdad will again be the shining center of learning for the Muslim world, but I have a feeling that won`t be anytime within a few generations.

Also, the same day of Saddam`s capture, Musharraf was 30 seconds away from being blown to bits. The same weekend half of the Iraqi army deserted over pay disputes. Obviously, the region will be no less volatile with Saddam in custody. I have a feeling Saddam`s capture will add fuel to the fire for militants everywhere, and not vice-versa. The future looks pretty murky.

....and whoever brought in the 1971 war into this thread, start your own topic on this, eh?

The changing face of America First, as a Pakistani-American male, I myself flew Virgin Atlantic to and from London in August of 2002 and had no issues whatsoever with the in-flight service. They were actually pretty friendly and everyone was tended to equally. Beyond the cramped seating of economy class, I had no complaints. I had my ice cream Dove bar like everyone else on time, and could watch ``Bend It Like Beckham`` or play 5 million video games if I wanted to. And I pretty much fit the physical profile of a prime terrorist suspect, but was never treated like one. Considering most flight attendants on Virgin Atlantic are British, you may have experienced the typical anti-desi racism from some white Brits rather than any new post-9/11 anti- Muslim treatment.

Second, as for successul ``smear campaigns`` in the United States, well, much of it has to do with the fracturing of the Muslim society within the US. None of the communities from the so-call Muslim ``Ummah`` in the U.S. is remotely united. Arabs keep to themselves, most Iranians here are in denial that they`re Muslim to begin with and are superior to everyone else, most Afghans here do nothing but bash Pakistan, the African-American Muslims do their own thing, the list goes on. What you do see is that the Pakistani society in the United States is one of the most apathetic immigrant communities around. Activism? What activism? Community outreach? Media relations? ``Someone else can do that. Our culture is to let things happen to us and then to complain about it and be upset. We`ll whine about our dismal state at a family friend`s daawat and then go back to work as normal the following Monday.``

Sure, the United States is at a point of crisis where the population is deeply divided over which direction the country is heading. I don`t condone American foreign policy and am no fan of the likes of Ann Coulter, Bill O`Reilly, etc. but whose repsonsibility is it to counteract our image and the policies against us? Beyond stooges like Mansoor Ijaz, anyway? Many just sit around and expect white sympathizers to do the work for us. It`s not up to them for us to be treated fairly and for the policies in regards to the Muslim world to be in our favor. The Jewish community did this in a brilliant way - excel in ALL elements of society so that you`re in control of what`s perceived of you. The Indian community is closely following that lead. There are Indian sportscasters and weather women on Bay Area local news stations. There`s a potential Indian governor of Louisiana. There`s a telegenic Indian-American doctor reporting on all things health-wise on CNN. They`re crafting public opinions about their community this way. Pakistanis, and Muslims in general, well, are content in just pursuing the American dream of making the big buck and keeping to themselves. Until the community wakes up and says, ``Hey, we need our kids to go into journalism. We need our kids to go into politics. We need our kids to go into Hollywood. We need our kids to go into law. We need to get over pushing them into just being doctors and engineers, making money, and then just getting married. We ourselves need to to get over our national boundaries and unite as Muslims to form a voting block to be reckoned with. We ourselves need to consistently write letters to the editor refuting Muslim bashing letters in the newspapers.`` I try my best locally, and in the Bay Area, it`s easy to have a sympathetic ear, but it`s all about trying harder in other places.

You, for example, instead of complaining about your treatment on Virgin on a Chowk bulletin board, could have complained directly to the Virgin office once you landed. Or the Better Business Bureau. Or told an Muslim or minority or immigrant advocacy group or a local ACLU chapter who would have looked into the matter to see if there was a pattern of discrimination on that airline. See, here in the US, you actually have these avenues to take. In Pakistan, where would you go complain about discrimination? Nowhere.

As for intolerant societies, hey, I know my roots are from Pakistan, and I am a staunch defender of the country when need be to other friends and acquantances, but I`m not in some denial that Pakistan is some egalitarian utopia. I`d much rather be a Muslim in the United States than a Hindu, Jew or Qadiani (or in these days, even a Shi`a) in Pakistan any day.

It`s not a hopeless situation here. The amount of people who came to protest against the Iraq war (almost all NON-MUSLIMS I might add, even a lot of Hindu Indians) shows that a significant portion of society is not sucking up what Bush is saying. Muslims, Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis alike, have a lot of work to do. Whether we do that work and make ourselves known as a viable force in the 2004 election will be a huge test.

In all, complain all you want about America. Just do something about it.

Our Racism Zia Ahmed: Great read. You wrote a lot of aspects that I also believe are true about our ``pure`` Pakistani society. Anti-``Yahoodi``-ism is the best, as if Pakistanis have become the world leaders in knowledge about Jews, their history, and all the `Jewish conspiracies` manifesting themselves everywhere.

Needless to say, you haven`t mentioned how living in mutli-ethnic communities in the US, Canada, and the UK, we don`t think twice about insulting ``chaptas`` and ``kaala kachras`` - yet decry when anyone foists dicrimination in our direction.

The hardest pill to swallow for Pakistanis is that we really don`t matter to the rest of the Muslim world. We sit there on a high horse thinking we`re the vanguards of this grand Muslim ummah, when the average Arab probably could give a crap less if India invaded Pakistan and annhilated everybody. We`ve turned into a nation of anti-Jews because we feel a ``kinship`` to the Palestinians. How many Arabs feel a kinship to Kashmiris? How many Arabs, Iranians, and Afghans are anti-Indian or anti-Hindu because of this conflict? The answer is a miniscule number.

Some day we`ll learn. Until then, no matter how educated we are - with each racist statement, we`re on the same level as a `white trash` redneck from the Appalachians.

Action To Support Displaced Community in Gujrat Sadly this animosity in the homeland is spilling over to a new generation here in the United States. This needs to stop. From the San Francisco Chronicle (Sept.1, `02):

Rape of 15-year-old girl in Palo Alto being treated as hate crime

(09-01) 11:26 PDT PALO ALTO, Calif. (AP) --

In an attack being called a hate crime a 15-year-old girl allegedly was raped at a drug store Friday.

Palo Alto police said Sanjay Nair, 18, who is Hindu, allegedly made comments while raping the Muslim girl, leading police to label the attack a hate crime.

The attack occurred in the basement bathroom of Longs Drug Store in Palo Alto.

The girl was treated at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center before being released Saturday morning.

A manager at the store said Nair had been suspended because he had reportedly sexually harassed the girl verbally.

Nair is being held without bail in Santa Clara County Jail in San Jose on charges of false imprisonment, rape, hate crimes and sexual battery.

The Mandir Mirage Re: Reply #37

Jntuece99,

Well said. Both sides have a lot of conferring to do amongst themselves before they reach across to the other side. Mistrust and stagnant stereotyping has persisted for eons now (even amidst the ``highly intellectual`` expat communities here in the US). There is a lot of self-victimization on both sides as well, which does no one any good (the same way self-pity gets an individual nowhere). As adults, you`d think we`d eventually get past the ``You did this!`` ``Well, you did that!`` scenario. Maybe someday we`ll all grow up.

- S

Headache and Heartburn I must say that this kind of atmosphere happens in most Indian/Pakistani functions where people need to go out of their way to prove to everyone else that they`re somebody. Fragile egos abound in kids of both communities, much due to the same mindset of their parents. But what can you do...I haven`t deduced whether my fellow ABCD`s or my FOB cousins and all their friends are worse at exhibiting this.

As for religion, let`s look at it this way. You can interpret religion any way you want to and therefore whichever ``word of God`` you take as your own, you can make that religion into a thing of beauty, inner-peace and spiritualism, or you can make it into a dark, violent, purely riutalistic intolerant beast. Sadly, a disheartening number of Muslims chose the latter route since they could never fully disassociate Islam with their native, violent/intolerant pre-Islamic cultures. But I take one look at a Muslim convert here in the US who is just reserved, always smiling, and just at peace with himself and with everyone else that I think, ``Well, thankfully it`s not all that bad.`` I`m not going to go out of my way to defend Islam, but it surely need not be demonized more than any other religion. For all the karma and nirvana and om shanti om talk of Hindus, you have elements such as the RSS, you have HUGE elements of intolerance in India, you have Bal Thackeray admitting in an interview that he is a strong admirer of Adolf Hitler. Did Hinduism initially preach such ugly human behavior? Probably not. But have many Hindus in India used elements and interpretations of Hinduism to further their own personal and communal needs? Yes. As have followers of every religion, from the Christian fundamentalist yokels in the deep South (with George W. Bush as their edifice) to right-wing Jews who keep calling for the destrcution of Al-Aqsa mosque to Buddhists and Hindus slaughtering each other (eh? how`s THAT possible?) in Sri Lanka and to Muslims in many places around the world hell-bent on taking ``jihad`` (even though they completely forgot what true ``jihad`` is) against everyone else; religion gets caught up with politics and then the screwed up result starts streaming down to the masses. Does Islam call for a woman to be jailed if she is raped? No. Does Islam state a woman should be killed if she marries someone she wishes to marry instead of whom she is supposed to marry according to her family? No. BUT do many Muslims believe the opposite? Yes, and I really can`t explain where the intolerance comes from - but it is not the religion itself. When I have Christian friends born here in the US telling me, ``You know, I really like you as a friend, it just too bad that you`re not `saved` and you`re eventually going to hell`` you know that EVERYONE, not just your people, is warped.