Desperately Seeking Dictators and Dissenters Salaam All! Especially to Dost-Mittarji and Stuka and Saminashah, all three of whom I owe correspondence and probably apologies.

Farzanaben, I am v briefly in Bombay/Pune and have foolishly forgotten your contact details in Sydney. Please (please, please) email me at zafreallyzaf@yahoo.com.

Salaam again. (Over and out.)

Careless Consciences Salaam all! As usual a combination of fascinating and `fascinating` discussion in response to Farzanaben`s article. At this moment inner voices (vices?) should be having their say in Mumbai`s BJP Meet - will be interesting to see what the outcome of all that is. Any fortune tellers around?

[Since you mentioned Zafar, he and I do not agree on all issues]

Farzanaben, that is NOT true!

More generally, from what I have been able to gather about Gujjubania, it is my opinion that he is a somewhat conflicted Bohra - so please everybody, be gentle with him.

Best regards

Zafar

Murder on Helm Street Concerned1

[let me ask you the same question i had asked couple of years ago when you cited this example (a friend of yours from bangalore was denied rental, you called it discrimination because he was a muslim)]

You did? I did? The two families I`m thinking of were settled in Delhi and looking for accommodation in Delhi.

[muslims are generally non-vegetarians. can you say with certainty that the hindu family which denied your friend had no issues with meat being cooked/brought on premises?]

I have no idea what the landlord families dietary habits were. The Hindu family looking for accommodation were meat eating Bongs.

In the situation you bring up, however, people just tell the real estate agent that they only will rent to vegetarians, it never gets beyond that point if a meat eater wants to rent.

Regards

Murder on Helm Street Gujjubani

[There was indeed a survey carried out by India Today -where Indian Muslims chose Jinnah and Auranzeb as their role models. ]

Now, you know better than to produce these unreferenced claims. url kahan hai?!

[Waise ,Looks like the mullah has been rocking a lot lately ..in Gurgaon eh ? I hear the shopping malls there are bigger and flashier than even those in B`lore... enjoy.. ]

I hate malls. (Shining, whining, what’s the dif…)

Murder on Helm Street Kaurasch

[This is an old trick trying to sidestep the issue with an irrelevant issue. We were talking about the under representation of muslims, NOT over representation of Bahmans. ]

You implied that the system was based on merit, and people (and groups) succeed or fail entirely on merit or lack thereof.

My point was that the system is (1) not entirely merit based and (2) access to skills that allow one to prove/develope merit are not equally accessible to all groups in India. (Please see post no. 461 by Mahesh, which I largely agree with.)

Regards

Murder on Helm Street Dostmittarji

[As for the article, I dont think that many muslims will vote for the BJP or that the BJP even expects them to vote for it. But its wooing of muslims and attracting some high profile muslims will go a long way in getting the support of moderate hindus, which I believe is its real aim.
If the BJP is really serious about muslims and not merely shedding crocodile tears (Advani) about what happened in Gujarat, it could start by firing Modi, rehabiliating the victims and pursuing the perpetrators of both Godhra and Gujarat with equal determination.]

Absolutely spot on.

Murder on Helm Street Jang – interesting example, and yes I agree that education is becoming more valued and that this will pay off on a variety of fronts in the future.

Murder on Helm Street Harish

[Endlessly claimed by Hindutva types, but never proved. What are all these ISI types DOING?]
[Zee News carried a program (I don`t exactly remember when, but must be some 6-8 months back) that clearly exposed the fact that the commies in W. Bengal handed out fake ration and voter ID cards to these illegal immigrants during elections to give them an inflated majority. These immigrants in turn voted for the commies and then vanished into other parts of the country. And then there were other immigrants who temporarily infiltrated into W. Bengal in connivance with the commie authorities (who took a cut out of their earnings for protecting them from the cops/BSF), worked as unskilled laborers and returned. So these are not mere claims by the Hinudtva types as you allege. ]

All Bangladeshi illegals in India being ISI types hell bent on India’s destruction (or at least ‘serious security threats’) IS endlessly claimed but never proved.

You point out that there is collusion with illegal migration. I don’t doubt it. My point was about the ISI. If the ISI is infiltrating West Bengal and digging in there, what are they doing? Why isn’t there more communal tension in West Bengal? That was my question.

[You may whine endlessly, but that isn`t going to change a thing. ]

OK, I’ll try not to whine. : - )

Regards

Zafar

Murder on Helm Street Bongdongs

I bow to your superior knowledge of Bengali life : - ) My own experience is limited to ex-Bengal Bongs, who seem quite tolerant on the whole. For eg, my parents were living in Delhi`s Chittaranjan Park during the 92-93 riots. (For the uninitiated, Chittaranjan Park is an EPDP colony - uff baba, a East Pakistan Displaced Persons colony - so full of Hindu bongs from East Bengal.) They were visited by a neighbourhood committee which reassured them and said that some young men from the colony were going to patrol at night to make sure that no trouble makers or goondas entered the area. AFAIK that`s the only colony in Delhi where such an organised response to communal violence took place at that time.

[``Why are there no Hindu-Muslim riots in Leftist West Bengal?``
Partners in crime? In area`s such as Kidderpore, Muslim gangsters control the economy in close alliance with CPM. Goonda-gardi is definitely on the rise in kolkata (rising from a well established base :-)) Since such lumpen elements are the one`s who will be the major participants in a riot (as we saw in Bombay `92) I am not too optimistic about Kolkata.]

Depressing. What I think will have a negative impact (already has) is the ongoing situation of Bangladeshi Hindus.

Regards

Murder on Helm Street MJ...er, Gujjubania...I almost fell off my chair! Now you carry on boss with this 90% etc. wrt IMs and Pakistani flags and cricket and so on and so forth, but I seem to recall you debunking these exact same points on sulekha...and even bringing up some good points wrt a certain Muslim army hero of Kargill. (Busted!) You are lucky I am in Gurgaon, if I was in Bangalore (I almost was) I would have forced you to take me to MTR for breakfast (and pay for it). Go easy on the punters sonny, they`re just people. HDK etc

Murder on Helm Street Kaurasch

[IMs are under represented in the government and other jobs because of their own antics.]

And Brahmins are proportionally OVER represented nationally entirely due to merit?

Rock on.

Murder on Helm Street Concerned1

Agree Kashmiri Pandits was not such a great comparison.

[post-godhra period is an entirely different chapter of indian history since a variety of events (both nationally and internationally) played into it]

I don`t think it is totally different, just a more extreme version.

[is it fair to say that during normal periods of life (far more than periods of communal riots) muslims, by and large, are not subjected to ‘second class status’ (or at least nothing substantially different from many other groups of other religions too)? ]

Yes. However, the fact that many Indian Muslims are largely from economically disadvantaged backgrounds means that they don`t have a biradari network that helps them to rise. This is not dissimilar to the situation of certain SC/Ts OBC/Ts, however it has not been recognised as a systemic disadvantage (which imo it is). Also, Muslims are (in some quarters) disliked and feared - and this limits what interactions people are willing to enter into with them.

(For example, beyond the ubiquitous Bangladeshi cleaning lady, have you ever seen a Muslim working as a domestic servant for a Hindu family? How frequently does this occur? Point is, domestic service is something people who have no other option in a village can turn to, it is a step up from destitution, so I`m not talking about big chances for middle class people, but about the small ones for the very poor.)

[i am also aware of the rai study which deals with police behaviour during communal riots. however, i thought you were referring to regular day-to-day life]

India being India this varies so widely from place to place and from economic class to economic class. An IIT graduate will face zero discrimination (imo) regardless of religion. A poor man selling fruit on the side of road may face significantly more harrassment from the police due to religion. Certainly if a Muslim of any sort wants to rent accomodation in Delhi, that is harder to do than for a Hindu family of similar background. (No empirical study, just happen to know Hindu and Muslim families who have rented accommodation.) This is a major issue for the urban poor who don`t own their own homes.

Also - where riots occur, they seem to occur regularly. (eg Ahmedabad, Meerut - or protractedly, as in Moradabad.) As catastrophic events, discrimination during and after them is like discrimination in life saving during a forest fire or a flood. It may not happen every day, but it`s impact is enormous.

[btw, how is police recruitment done at state level?]

No idea what the formal process is for the lower levels - I think that upper levels enter after taking the civil service exams (as in IAS). Even a low level police job is quite sought after, however, as is any Govt naukari. It`s that first step UP, which allows even people from very deprived backgrounds to educate their children, and hopefully to see their grandchildren enter the middle class.

Regards

Murder on Helm Street Plats8

[Is it reasonable to expect that you`re back at chowk on a regular basis ? ]

Inshallah. It`s such fun to be back.

[About the political violence in West Bengal, you are right in that it is broadly non-communal in nature. But CPI(M) has taken intimidation tactics to a completely new level, particularly in the rural areas - families not supporting the CPI(M) get effectively ostracised, irrespective of religion. Politics in Bengal has always had a very violent side to it.]

Ever since the Naxalbari movement, and maybe even before. Stemming (??) from the reorganisation of land tenure and use under the East India Company (or am I misguided?). My point was not that WB is a haven of calm and fairness, only that they seem to have nipped THIS particular demon at the bud.

[Someone mentioned the communists encouraging illegal migration from Bangladesh through a porous border and how this has changed the demographics in certain areas. However, my understanding has been that these people (who are excessively
poor to begin with) are herded in after swearing eternal allegiance to the CPI(M). Their religious identity is irrelevant in this matter - they are simply not allowed to
vote along religious lines.]

Is there any reputable study on this? I recall something similar with Bangladeshi immigrants being given identity cards in Assam by Congress party MLAs - in return for their votes.

Regards

Murder on Helm Street Hi Tahmed - I am currently in Gurgaon visiting my parents (till tomorrow) so have a little time to latako on chowk. Inshallah will be able to keep it up, as it`s very nice to see old friends around. Regards

Murder on Helm Street Arjun_m, I`m not a fan of victimhood politics, but that doesn`t mean that I think that there are no genuine victims, nor that none of these are victimised because of belonging to a particular group (not just Muslims. Women, far more consistently.) One must insist on moving beyond victimhood politics as well as addressing some of these victimisation issues - and it’s a hard balance to strike when recognising such victimisation sometimes strikes at our image of India, and hence our own self images. Fair? Regards

Murder on Helm Street Hi Avkrishna

[even the definition of the problem, let alone the solution, is not clear in the majority of Hindus` minds.]
[Don`t you think suggesting (another) Partition is a bit irresponsible when the problem itself is so hazily and emotively described?]
[It might seem a bit irresponsible of me. I know that this is a cruel solution if at all it is one. I started off this chain to find out more about what the average Middle class muslims (read FV) thinks about the potential solutions to this problem.]

I think you`re jumping the gun. Perhaps you should first ask if they agree that there is a problem, and if so, how would they define the problem. THEN let`s discuss solutions.

This does, however, mean that you have to define the problem more clearly in your own mind. (Or have a discussion on that…since India continues to be a work in process.)

[I raised this issue of partition to find out her thoughts on this solution. My query is more of an academic one and I thought this is a safe forum to discuss this rather. I also intend to concretize my stand on this issue through this dialogue and similar ones in future. Being geographically removed from India right now, I also feel less guilty since I don`t have to vote for BJP while I am sorting out my thoughts on where I stand on this.]

I am currently reading `Riot` by Shashi Tharoor. In it a Muslim character articulates, to my mind very well, the bitterness Indian Muslims feel about Partition. (Sorry Pakistani friends, no offence/attack intended on your nationhood : -) Point being, Partition was not a good thing for Indian Muslims the first time round, it`s a bit like adding insult to injury to ask if we think another one would be a good thing.

[Assuming I read you correctly, this is the crux of our disagreement. You think BJP hit it`s natural optimal penetration with one issue and hence diversifying (which means moderating on the core issue) to stay in power.

Two observations here: As I mentioned in my first message, even the local parties (sometime even the local segments of national paraties) are becoming religiously conservative to diversify themselves.]

To some extent, this is true. But if the TDP (for eg) adds soft Hindutva to its plank of Teluguness, what is the BJP`s USP? Unless they are in coalition, they`re in competition - and as the TDP also currently gets Muslim Telugu votes (not to mention moderate Hindu Telugu votes), there seems to be a limit to the level of hard Hindutva it can incorporate.


[That leads to my second observation that the Hindu society is changing, becoming more cohesive in it`s aspirations, more conservative, more militant. To me this social trend is more important than one particular party`s majority. To be honest with you, I am in favour of this to some extent. Hinduism`s fate and India`s fate, I think, are inextricably linked to each other and Hinduism needs to be preserved and nutured in this country.]

To be quite honest, I don`t think that Hinduism is under any threat in India, and has not been under any threat since Independence. (Barring small areas like the Kashmir Valley.) What I think is driving Hindutva is reaction to rapid social and economic change; not least the growing assertiveness of the lower castes, and the potential for Mandalisation of politics in India. The Ram Mandir movement grew out of the same ferment of the anti-Mandal agitation, let`s not forget. IMO Hindutva is driven by the desire for cohesion in the face of demonstrably competitive (and to some extent contradictory) agendas.

[Do you think if the Gujarat incidents happened in Bangalore or Hyderabad, the reaction of eloctorate in those stateswill be different? I don`t think so. It`s easy for non- Gujaraties (read, moderate Hindus) to profess shock at the behaviour of the eloctorates, but I would bet that the reaction would be the same if it happened elsewhere.]

I do not think that such an incident would have occurred anywhere else. (It didn`t.) The Godhra atrocity didn`t drop out of the sky, did it? It took place in a very specific social and political context. It`s also hard to explain how the reaction in North Gujarat (far away from Godhra) was `stronger` than the reaction in the immediately adjacent (and very close to Godhra) part of Madhya Pradesh, or stronger than the reaction in Bombay (where most of the victims were from, and which goes through period of communal tension) - difficult to explain, that is, unless you examine the different political dispensations in these areas. It cannot be explained away as a spontaneous mob reaction. Facts just do not support that.

Re: Lucknow, Jang makes an excellent point. Most of the country is peaceful. Lucknow is at one end of the spectrum, but it is not all THAT unusual. Thanks Sadna for the reference to Varshney`s book. (Has anybody here read it?)

Regards, and pleasure to have interacted.