The April Fool Referendum Hobbes #346
I am not in philosophy or history, there will be better people to guide you on work of Spinoza.
The ``History of Philosophy`` by Will Durant is short and concise. And gives in nutshell the different philosophers and philosophy.
As far as I understand Quran, everything is done by God, whether it appears to be a natural process. For example formation of human, child etc, is described as being done by God. Similar with blowing of winds or movement of planets etc. Thus I presume that natural process or laws of nature are somehow related to be done by God or reflect the will of God.
What about social laws. Social laws like laws of economics and other presuppose a human society in existence at a certain stage, or if you are abhorrent to word stage, then we can use at a specific place and time. There is some underlying laws within these parameters also and is dependent upon human nature as formed by human interaction over millenia. For example people will move towards better economic opportunity (or opportunity) etc. Are these laws dictated by God? Whatever way you argue it, this is the direction human society has taken. We can say it as laws applicable to human society.
Do these laws reflect God`s will or not?.
God is omnipotent, omnipresent and all powerful. There is no one to share in this attribute. Not even a devil. This is not a matter of two gods ``Aharman and Yazdan. god of good and god of evil. There is only one God who has no sharer in his power.
So how come world is like this anti-God. Quran says that if God willed, HE would have made monotonous world (or something like that), but that is not God`s will.
Let me give you an example from Surah Rome.
Quran says that from 3-7 years people of book will overcome Unbelievers. It can be argued in many ways. But is there a role of unpredictability of human society and human endeavours and many factors which come into play.
Any way the role of devil, whatever it is, is also with the consent of God.
So ultimately we end up with God`s commandment to guide us through this tricky and treacherour World created by God himself.
If you agree with this point of view, you will see why the concept of Heaven and hell is so important. And why it is important to know that whoever has not received God`s message cannot be blamed.
As far as your point of ``is`` and its interpretation according to certain time period, it may or may not be applicable here.

The April Fool Referendum Hobbes #
I wish, I had little time to indulge in reading. I plan to do that once I retire.
Koran says ``Enmity of someone should not make you blind, to move away from justice``
Z.A. Bhutto was elected from West Pakistan, especially Punjab in 1970 election. He did what a representative of Punjab would do in that situation. This topic is lengthy, we probably delay it for a while, if you agree.
The other topic is not only for discussion for me, but it is also to clarify things for myself by discussion.

Peace in South Asia Bilal Ahmed, may God bless him, was humanist. And was adamant about his thoughts.
Although, I have disagreed with his idealist approach, but my respect for him never faltered.

The April Fool Referendum Hobbes #336
I think, I fail to communicate properly.
One thing is laws of nature, or laws of society. In my opinion they reflect some underlying functioning of society. For example why in a Islamic country like Iran there is a talk of ``Decency house``. Why there were so many drinkers even in Early Islamic period. Man is free will. And there are many things which move society. Why there is prostitution when society moves into Capitalism. And not when it is in early stages. These things happen in society even if there are laws against it. For example drug laws, laws against prostitution etc.
My belief is not even a leaf moves without will of God. So, I think in Spinoza style (not Neitsche) that laws of nature or society in some way reflects God`s will. Or if society moves in a certain direction, there are many forces which start acting on the society.
If this is not like this. Then ultimately we have to believe that some other force is acting in contradiction to God`s will, and not only working, but is successful. This notion will be antithesis to omnipotent God.
Now, to bring some purpose, God sent his commandments. Which demands a conscious effort on the part of man. If we see from the life of Prophet PBUH, he not only proclaimed there is no god but God. He also pin pointed the vice in society. During this effort, one tends to make many enemies especially from powerful and their machinery. And this struggle may even lead to martyrdom, if one is very proactive.
As far as predestination is concerned. This has been debated in history in the form of ``Jabar`` or ``Qadar``. That means if there is predestination, then everbody even a whore and debauch are acting according to certain divine plan. And therefore they are not at fault. If there is no predestination then man is making his effort and is responsible for his actions.
I think there is predestination. That means thing work according to some underlying laws.
But (and this also according to Quran), once a person listened to the commandment of God and realized that it is true and still persists in his old ways, then that person is acting out of free will and will be punished. While another person listened to God`s commandment and said ``Samayna Wa Ata`na`` he definitely has reward from God. Because through maturation, he might ultimately has to leave all the things which he considers dear and near. Money, family, life style etc.
I think, i am able to communicate.
What thou say.

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation Hobbes #683

Since this thread is moving into oblivion, would you care to elaborate, on this or another thread.

I think you have used a very practical definition, submission to the will of God (And nothing or no one but God)

Its many implications from hitory. What is the meaning of submission, who determines it, role of individual, role of state etc.

I would appreciate, if you continue.

The April Fool Referendum Shammi #333

At least they are applying the law to everyone. I am sure Khan will produce his degree and will contest election (and probably will lose).

With the (UN)Constitutional ammendment. 29 in one stroke. (I hoped he would have done 30 to call himself TEES MAAR KHAN). With the (UN) constitutional ammendment specific for Benazir. With all the prepoll rigging for Muslim League ``Q``, it does not matter how fair or unfair they try to proove themselves.

For me this is a non issue.

The April Fool Referendum Hobbes #

Why not call American forces and American President to take care of our country. Since we are unable to take care of it.

I think it will make you happiest person on Chowk.

The April Fool Referendum Hobbes #318

The dillema of Pakistan is a weak state, initially surrounded by two hostile neighbours India and Afghanistan.

The defense needs of Pakistan is paramount. But our Armed forces instead of acting in the best interest of country have taken full advantage of the situation, to the point that they think Pakistan as their ``Jagir``, to the detriment of development of Pakistan and its people.

I will not go back to 1951 or around so, but will start after the break-up of Pakistan.

Z.A.Bhutto had the mammoth task of UNITING a Shattered nation, Giving RESPECT to a defeated nation, REBUILDING a defeated nation, REBUILDING the defense of nation. He was upto the mark on all counts realizing from what scratch he started. Most of all he realized, as any sane person will, the defense of nation. And what did the army do. As soon as it recovered from humiliation and shock, it right away grabbed power in coup detat.

Right after taking power, Zia-ul-Haque started the culture of bribery and nepotism. All the old politicians from previous era were bought or silenced, or put behind bars. A culture of ``PAJERO`` and ``BRIEF CASE FULL OF MONEY`` started. The new generation of politicians which came was very well corrupted by Army. Still once the political process started (inspite of all interference from ISI and Army), people started questioning the nepotism and bribery. Not at all a good sign for Army. Which has been wont to loot the country without any hindrance.

My dear our Army is NaaPak. As NaaPak as any killer, looter and rapist of country and its people can be. It has the only concern that its retired Brigadiers and Generals get into lucrative jobs. It has full access to the funds taken in the name of Pakistani Nation. And nobody should interfere in this job, which NaaPak Army has taken upon itself.

The books on corruption open at 1988 when so called democratic elections were held. (When Ishaq Khan and Sahabzada Yaqub were made president and foreign minister on behalf of Army and ISI, and IJI was formed with the massive pouring of funds to make politicians more corrupt).

You are in philosophy and history, kindly tell me that killer, looter and rapist of country and countrymen can be called NaaPaak or not?

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation PM #681

That is an interesting question?

I may have to think on it further.

The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.

It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).

If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.

Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.

As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation PM #681

That is an interesting question?

I may have to think on it further.

The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.

It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).

If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.

Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.

As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation PM# 670

Although your question is directed at Naqshbandi and Urstruly, Let me put my thoughts also.

Ibrahim (AS) is mentioned as a Muslim, without any doubt, because he believed in one God and did not made partners to HIM. At some places, other prophets and their followers are mentioned as Muslims with the same specification.

But since their message got corrupted, their followers are no longer considered Muslims.

Now for me the definition of Muslim is same. The concept of monotheism.

It is a different matter that some Muslims have started to make partners with God and thus deny the basic quality of Muslim as described above.

The April Fool Referendum Amina Shah #304 And Nasah#

I was discussing with my friend just now about Z.A.Bhutto, how he took it very hard when put behind bars by Ayub Khan. The same Bhutto in 1979 went to gaol bravely without any remorse.

Party of Nawaz Sharif has matured and is still maturing. He has time and again realized his past mistakes.

As far as the role of Army is concerned, it is defense of the borders.

Pakistan Army has completely failed in its job. And history is the proof.

Instead of doing their job, they have taken up the job of looting the country and to perpetuate this aim, they want to have total control on Judiciary, Parliament and Administration.

They have already subjugated judiciary, they have for all practical purposes have control over administration. To make sure Parliament does not interfere in this, they want a Parliament with no power.

This is all done in the name of keeping, Corrupt out of power. But what is the guarantee that with such absolute power, the Army will not be corrupt.

Neither does the history prooves this.

These kind of maneuvering are not only openening the door to unprecendeted corruption. But with emasculated power of Judiciary, Parliament and press, it will go unrecorded.

A person who loots on the barrell of gun is called by some bad name.

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation Hobbes #671

This is very much out of context of what we are discussing.

The April Fool Referendum Amina Shah #297

I am in agreement with your emotions.

NaaPak Army is going to play all tricks to divide people on the basis of ethnicity, religion etc to keep themselves in power.

This same Army has killed shamelessly anywhere from 700,000 to a million Bengalis and are utterly shameless. They have guns. If nobody respects these B$tards it does not matter. They have killed thousands of Sindhis in MRD movement.

Looks like this is a ploy to play the same game as they did before.

Wasn`t it the same Army which supported the slogan `` Jaag Punjabi Jaag Tenun Pag Nu Lag Giya Daag``.

I think, these tactics are to incite Punjab into same behaviour to ultimately vote for Muslim League ``Q``, because Nawaz Sharif will not be allowed to return (He is dangerman).

Muslim League (N), ARD, People`s Party, Mutahhida Majlis Amal, each for their own reasons are adopting a common strategy for elections(as far as I can see).

This fight is slowly turning into a fight beetween between Naapak Army and Bekas Awam.

Don`t worry this NaaPak Army is only sincere to itself. It has broken Pakistan into half before. (Salute to Bengalis) and it is ready to do the same with rest of Pakistan. As long as it can stick to power (Muun Ko Khoon Lag Giya Hai Harmzade Plot Khoron Ko).

Let the Army do its dirty job.

NaaPak Fauj Ki Azmat Ko Salaam. Khuda Hafiz Pakistan.

Peace in South Asia RSridhar #340

This happens when leaders are PREPARED to read the dictation of real power brokers.

You used mild words.

Andher Nagri Chopat Raj.

The April Fool Referendum Urstruly #

By end of September things will be more clear.

I don`t know, if accepting the nomination paper of Nawaz Sharif is the individual act of presiding officer which will be fought by Government or it is at the behest of Government.

If the Government does not fight it in court and does not give relief to Benazir, it will have very negative impact in Sind.

(Nawaz Sharif is convicted of two criminal cases and by amended (UN) constitution he is barred. Benazir is barred because of new (UN)constitutional amendment specifically made for her)

As I said, I am just observing the PLAN OF TRUE DEMOCRACY in Pakistan.

Until and unless people start dragging the NaaPak Army Jawans on streets, these people will think themselves as Mai Baap of Pakistan. F- with NaaPak Army. F- with Musharraf.