Lighting The Nuclear Fire Dear Prof.

I respect your views a lot but I would like to say however, the junction at which we find ourselves at this particular moment is pretty serious, how did we arrive here that could be debated till the cows come home but there are certain ground realities which simply can`t be ignored. Have we made mistakes along the way, Yes...Many, did we learn, I hardly think so but be that as it may its our home and the enemy is 1 million strong knocking at the door.I would like to put some questions to you I hope you take a moment and look at these without the idealistic and normative lense you normally use.

1) Indian denied Kashmiris the legal and moral right to self determination. True or False.

What has UN ( the most frivilous org ) done to fix it, Has it been successful to let Kashmiris choose their freedom. NO

2) They want to do away with Indus Basin treaty. They either want to ``flood`` us or bring ``drought`` on us. Ture or False

3) They are 10 times our size with growing fundamentalist rhetoric of ``Mandir Bun Kay Rahaye Gaa`` to ``India is only for Hindus`` to ``state sponsored genocide in Gujrat`` Do you have any reason left in your mind that they are ``willing and able`` to listen to reason. Ture or False

Has Anyone in the so called civilized world listened to any reason to Muslim plight may it be Palestine or Bosnia or Afghanistan or Kashmir EVER !!!

4) The only reason that stops them now in their tracks is because Pakistan does have, however limited, but some Nulcear capability and thank god for that other wise instead of knocking at your door they would not think twice before crossing the LOC. Ture or False

5) They have had 700,000 strong army in kashmir for a long time now, are you telling me that this being practically a military state has been ``unable`` to curb some disfranchised seperatist. They don`t allow human rights or UN in Kashmir...why? Are they afraid that the true side of their hypocritical secularism would come to light? And as usual the world is silent. Sure they have a green light from USA because Indians would not be up on such a scale on their own. We may be weaker, smaller, financially less stable but We are NO Palestinian Authority, we do have a 600,000 strong army and we do have medium and long range missile capability those war mongering Vajpaee`s, Advani`s, Thakarays, Fernandes want to push us around...fine but it won`t be that simple. They simply can not think that the idiotic ``limited war`` nonsense would apply in our situation.

6) And lastly, I hope you do know that NO ONE likes a Muslim Country with Nuclear capability or a Missile program, even to defend herself. How true is that. And the ummah...can go *bleep * itself and no one has uttered one word to the recent crisis. How sorry is that? We must ACKNOWLEDGE that we are ALONE in this, may be we can count on Chinese but only to a certain extent. Reagon had his evil empire, Bush don`t like china, and I hope Chinese can see through the over all US / INDIA design for the future of south east/asia. We are the only thorn in both of their sides.

7) I hope there is no war and saner sense prevails but India will never let go. They would keep killing kasmiris on one pretext or the other, they will keep ethinic cleansing in other states and keep committing genocide of Muslims, they WILL deny you water and they will work on some way to hurt you. I hope we pakistani should understand that we should ACCEPT that USA is not our friend, UK is not our friend, Israel is not our friend. We have lost Afghanistan I hope we can mend it but I doubt it. But still if there is to be a war, then I pray that for every Lahore or Karachi or Islamabad we take out 2 Mumbais, and 5 Madras and 10 Delhis.

Lalas lost sleep the day we discoloured Chagai mountains and that`s a FACT.

Another One Bites The Dust Re: SM,

My sentiments exactly and I also strongly believe in my heart that its time once again for a revisit from our dear resident Musharafologist, Mr. Bilal Musharaf to once again articulate that why his dad ``had no choice`` yet again by explaining what could only end up as a fine series of ``He had no choice II`` followed by ``He had no choice III`` and so on till we really get it...;-)

I miss you Bilal Musharaf !

We, The Muslim Americans Re: Bina

``The efficiency of Agriculture Industry`` reminds me of a an old story I read a long time ago. Mullah Naseeruddin (MN) sends a pound of prime usda approved meat home to his wife with instruction that he will be accompanied by a guest for dinner that night. I suspect his wife was a Kashmiri and hence could not resist the tempation and she ends up enjoying the meat all by herself, anyway when MN returns home that evening he inquires about the meat, the wife points towards the cat present in the room and tries to convince MN that probably the cat had it. MN picks the cat up and weighs it. The cat turns out exactly a pound. MN say,``Gosht to Mill gaya haye, per Billi kahan haye?``.

I am sure you must have done a great deal of research about the agriculture industry and its efficiency that I really learned from you, you may be right about its delivery chain being all that as well, may be my casual comment was too generalistic and my intentions were vague and what I meant to say, which by the way has been said much better by others like hamidm, sameerjb, romair etc, it was more about the feudal fauji nexsus. If I poo pooed the feudal I did not exonerate the fauji.

But c`mon, I don`t think NA seat is worth only 200 acres...unless the ``Kummeez`` (the more effectionate term in use by the feudals to address there serfs) are absolute in love with them.

Bina my uncle is probably the top textile guy if not ``the`` guy in garments industry at home, his operation is just grand. But you know what, you cannot find one piece, one freak`n piece that he produces in Pakistan in the local market. Its is absolute to his benefit alone. His best quality product comes out here and is not available locally and that bothers me. I don`t like it.

My comments about Abida or Baber or Ejaz-ul Haq were out of spite, I wasn`t being colourful, I was just stating fact, they are rolling in it and where did they get it....? I think it is public knowledge how saifullahs or Marwats or Ayubs get unsecured loans or gift wrapped industry, hell last time I checked NAB was looking for one of my uncles who is being poetic about a billion...:-) Any way your point well taken, leave you with dear ghalib,

GhaR kahaN Jis Ka Ghum Tujhaye GhaaRut Karta

Ik Hus-ra-tay Ta`meer Jo haye, So haye

On a different note, it just occured to me and this is for fuzair/romair/hamidm/temporal/sameer and party, hypothetically if Mushy says that he is going to keep it the ``R`` simple by only asking the people, ``do you want me to continue as P yes or no`` what chance does he have if the electorate is mortgaged in Garhi KhudaBuksh or Bhawalpur? Isn`t that the place where these people are loaded up in trucks and brought to the polling stations any way. Kaheen, ``BaRray Bay-Abroo Ho KaRr Taeray Koochay say Hum Niklay`` wala number General Saab kay sath na ho Ja-aye...:-)

We, The Muslim Americans

Re: Bina #66

I don`t think I am letting my imagination getting the better of me. Well let me indulge myself further into a hypothetical survey. Lets list all the landholdings by size of squares per family per province, then list all the industry per family per province ( implying diversified portfolios of these chums) and just for fun list of political and commercial activity per family per province, and then cross link these to see if you get a pattern. I am willing to bet that it would make for an interesting study. If for example Womens` Humdard Syeda Abida Hussain, humaree Chaandi has a 10% stake in her family`s zameen comapred to her sibblings don`t consider this as small potato, aggregate that with here siblings` holdings, link `em up with the industry they hold, packages, add to that, the political infulence over the banking industry and the corers of unsecured loans, a recent non-performing portfolios with CBR may highlight that and by the time you are done you may reconsider your assertion that ``do this and we will starve`` may be off by at least 50 million at present.

Also, Politics ain`t cheap, but a little introspection about the power base of politics still lies with landholders or their alliance with my fav ``like minded`` lord of the manors. I really would have a hard time accepting that Bhuttos, legharis, Bazinjos, jamalis, khans, chaudrys and what-have-you just till 1/2 an acre next to their 5 squar havelis and are merely getting by...:-). sure the inherrant collusion with the Sarkari Ufssar does help, no body will now that Chaury Saab just got together with the urban developement ufssar and out came a developement scheme on a certain non perfroming agriculture area of land, unbeknown to anybody and anyone which Chaury Saab happened either aquire recently or own, and that stupid Aloo ka khait worth mere thousands per kanal has just gotten appreciated Lakhs per marla and Chaury Saab gave a statment that Fauj is trying to turn the country into a secular mess on the behest of the jewish lobby...:-)d

Sure, the industry may be stable, and god forbid efficient, but I suspect the ownership stays at the same place. Also, Bina, I didn`t suggest Nationalization...did I? If Butto Saab can get up and stick it up to every businessman cuz Bhutto Saab had zameens in Larkana why can`t Mushy with all these 5 million active KukkaRrz doing left...rat...left...rat, seriously consider ``invading`` these feudals...who is to stop him, I mean they dicked around with the Balouch tribes and there is no mention of that in our Pakistan Studies Kittaab..., Yaye bhee hum deny kar dain gaye...:-) Hey if you didn`t read it in the holy Pakistan Studies Syllabus, it never happened...:-), so why in the world he Mush Man needs polictical ratification from the likes of Ijaz-ul-haq and PML (Q) or whomever? that`s where it gets just ludicrous and silly..:-)...you know ``chottee qaoum, ghareeb mulk, chotta dimagh...never think big...:-)``

Yes per your assertion the mile long surnames are just getting by...and syed Baber Ali shah waits around with his Khandani Zameenon kay titles wanting to pledge as collateral outside Habib Bank...right! why not...:-) Have you ever tried getting a puny small little loan as an enterprenuer? Awarding Contracts or industries or Banks to your friends is not ``Free Market Economy or Enterprise``

You say, ``Today Pakistan`s people do not lack for food but if you throw all its major food production systems into turmoil I can assure you we will be another Ethiopia within a year.``

Now that is just plain silly!!!...:-) LOL...I don`t even want to contest that. You don`t mean the long lines outside KFC or Mcdonalds do ya...? where there is plenty...:-) Haye...Bibi, people are literally selling their childern cuz they can`t feed them...what planet do you live on?

In a simple way what I was referring to, was, that the resources are concentrated with only the privileged few and we know who they are...and that is not fair...it is cruel and criminal, without a level playing field or equal opportunity this farce would continue as a tasteless joke. And no I am not saying that take away that Murabba and give it to this unpaRh mazara...or give that Phacktree to the mazdoor, or just dole that loan out to Syed hafizurehman BA instead of Ghulam Ishaq`s son-in-law...this should give anyone some idea how much freak`n work needs to be done...I think even the best intended fair markets would fail since we as pakistanis with low literacy and lower skills and no experience would do a grand job of mucking. So, the god forsaken free market and electorate or democracy is not in the remote horizon, we need to get some basics figured out even to make a decent half ass start. We just need to put in place the basic elements of a functioning society in place, create conditions which may sustain a free flowing enterprise or if you like democratic values. Watching MTV or buying a coke in a dhoti doesn`t make you democratic, you have to buy into the freak`n value system behind the coke and the cadillac! and that my friend is highly unlikely...:-)

But I am glad...that you corrected my misplaced notions that things are getting worse...I guess Sub AccHa haye...;-) ciao

We, The Muslim Americans Re: Romair,

Romair, I believe hamidm when he says the average worthless ``shitpot`` general is worth around $2 to $3 million dollars plus the benefits of constantly adding insult to injury to the en masse, this whole sickening vicious triangular relationship between the gun toading idiotic Fauji, inept bureaucracy, and corrupt politicians has to go. I really don`t see why do we have to be the ``thaekaydaarz`` of Islam. No body gives a crap except for lottaz who have Islam as a source of income ( have you seen Fazlur rehman how fat is this pig ). This whole Muslim brotherhood and impotent league of Muslim countries ain`t worth squat. At least those s.o.bs have oil, what do we have to show for, around 50 million living below the poverty line and the remaining 100 million heading that way. If Mushy wants to do this screwed up country a favor he needs to really forget about the stupid referendum and ask the real question to the serfs and the unemployed and the uneducated and the hungry that in order for this country to move forward does he have their ``permission`` to snatch away all the bleeding Jagirs which these feudals inherited from god himself, break up the flour, candy, milk pack, sugar, cement, steel, banking monopolies, do some major land reform, clean up the civil services and the army. Forget about Kashmir, forget about Islam, forget about palestine, there is no need for us to be the experimental mess of a lab of Isalm or fortress of Islam (what are we defending? those nut job camel jockeys? ). No body died and appointed us the designated captain of this rudderless ship we don`t have to be the idiotic designated driver of Islam...and honestly we are not in any capacity to tout it either...I mean only crazy people think that Pakistan has the right resources and leverage to champion all these causes. More attention needs to be given to cleaning up the house, fixing it, putting it in order. We are a debt ridden pathetic little country and I am surprised that people on this forum convince me that our poverty fares better than Indians cuz they got more poor in the streets of Dehli, Calcutta, and Mumbai, I mean is this a statistic even worth mentioning. Who gives a crap what India does. We should stop comparing ourselves to India, If we need to really need to have a comparison so bad, then compare your state with G7 that should enligthen any reasonable person to use a pujabi phrase, ``Dunyaa CHUN touN ve aGgaye niK-al ga`eeaye tay asee ha`laay Jutti pay lub-nay aiN.`` And yes, BB and NS and Chaudris etc are worthless but don`t be fooled by the khakis. They have done us in over and over again. They are worthless as anyone else. They are only good for wearing starch uniforms and usurping the entire nations resources, 0.2% is the amount allocated to medicine, 1.7% to education...its a joke that they have been playing on us for 50 plus years...almost cynical ``yaye to wohi jagaa haye niklay thay hum jahan say``...:-), Yaye saalay saub aik hee mitti kay bannay who-ay hain, aour yaye mulk in ko muft mein milla haye...I hope this general president chief executive commando anitcipated ameer-ul-mominin proves me wrong...and does something different...at the least do a new con, cuz I am really bored by the same old rabbit & the hat trick.

The Pattern of Hatred Re: Author,

Hoo-E Mud-daut Keh Ghalib MuR Ga`yaa, per yaad aa`taa haye

Woh her ik baat pay kehnaa keh ``yoon hotaa toau kiyaa hotaa?``

Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento Re: Asim

Kudos, Sir, on doing a good job by exposing a scoundral, and a pat on the back to all other students who put out flyers illuminating BB`s BS. This is the only way to deal with these kind of crooks. Students and the ``moderate`` educated middle class needs to have this on top of their agenda. Take these thieves down. I salute your efforts.

factoid: In her first term, BB, issued 392 Ordiances that year, if any one remembers...:-)

Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento RE: RAS Siddiqui

Dear Mr. Siddiqui, Benazir Bhutto is a crook, being a journalist you should know better than ordinary folks like me. Like Romair said, ``she is doesn`t make Pakistan look good.`` All she does is lie, lie, steal, lie, steal some more and lie some more. Is this something to be proud of? that our leaders are shameless liers and thieves?

A while back she came to my city on a speaking engagement and I knew the local professor who arranged her engagement. What was funny, shocking, and sad at the same time was the fact that this guy would diss her in private meetings in front of us locals, but in his introduction to this Lady in waiting he compared her to Joan of Arc, I almost puked! So much so for the integrity of an educated man. This guy held nothing back, it was very tragic seeing him tumbling over for a photo op...:-).

Her father reduced the country to half her size and she and her husband looted it blind. Do you want to add anything else to it. I think the most appropriate thing for us expats to do is to boycott these ``so called leaders`` meetings here, and make it very public. No one should even acknowledge them in the hope that they will shut up one day.

A World Upside Down Re: F.R.Khan

1) I have been reading your views for a while you have it together, very cool headed indeed. Having said that, I think for the sake of political honesty, could you enligthen us with regards to the ``official U.S.`` policy position in context of all human rights and political settlements, land disputes, core values of democracy in context of United Nations charters and history accords when it comes to nations except U.K., France, & Germany.

I`ll start you off for instance how many times has the U.S. vetoed resoultions regarding Palestine, and what was the ratio of voting.

2) How come the defender of faith and Democracy had no ``problem`` throughout its ``elected governments`` to be happy and arm in arms with

1) Royals in the Middle East...can you call it democratic governments?

2) Military Generals running the show in half of the lesser developed countries...is that sharing the democratic culture example latin america

3) Aggression carried out by these various entities all over while U.S had no problem with these regimes. Sure they will sell them more arms no problem there. East Timor for example

4) How come after this crisis, the military sanction on every tom dick and harry were lifted. the debts are reschudled and more money is being doled out for military hardware?

5) How can there be a military solution, where one party, ``so called detested terrorist`` don`t give a hoot about their lives. Hello, reality check, these folks are willing to die! so they don`t accept your game they have introduced their own game.

Even today, a CNN newsflash will show a video clip where Israeli tanks or gunmen are shown shooting at young kids with stones and the news repoters will shamelessly keep talking about some lone gunman killing some Israeli settler.

It angers me personally that how shamelessly some policy planner can get up and sum these atrocities in word like, ``collatoral dammage``.

Would someone Add up the collatoral damage over the last 15 years and all the homeless in all muslim countries, it would embarass the WTC.

5) I think the american public in general has been hijacked in many ways and all this killing takes place in the name of american life style and american people all over the world to which american public has no clue, no wonder they ask, ``why do they hate us?``

Re: Romair,

I am a by stander, but I don`t think there is a ``jewish lobby`` as we speak or allude to. I feel that its the U.S itself. U.S is a very fundamentalist country in lot of ways.

War, What is it Good For? Reply KR,

I`ll second FR khan, its good for the economy. Inovative approach on your part made for an intersting read...thanks

The Virgin Bride RE: Author,

Oh the mother of all paybacks !!!...;-) LOL, ...sorry Nafisa but the construct seems a little manufactured. You baseline with Mubeena`s scenario and you conclude with Majid`s reality, both are identical. You treat both Paap & P`oo`UN the same.

And you didn`t give us the moral of the story ;-)

Hypothetically, Majid, with all his apparent good looks, charm, and experience is a Jack Ass who aggrees to marry a 21 old...:-) well how about an alternative, Mubeena gives birth to a child which belongs to Majid as the result of their one night together, she moves to states unknown to Majid,

a) Majid discovers the wife to be is Mubeena`s daughter and gets the reality check there

b) Majid finds out the girl is Mubeena`s daughter and Mubeena had been divorced many years ago and marries her

c) Majid finds out the ``guy`` on the other end is actually is Mubeena`s Son.

d) or Majid finds out the ``guy`` on the other end is ACTUALLY his son that Mubeena had, and never told him about...;-)

If you want to address sex and sexuality, please be bold, and go ``where no man has gone before``. Sex is serious business Nafisa, and Karachi`s pre pubescent under ground scene is a far cry from it. Any way good wishes and I hope you attempt sex again with a different angle.

TiECon 2001 Re: All,

So does the I.T man Dr. Atta has an email address yet? I have asked about this previously as well, any help would be greatly appreciated. Need to talk a little about a satellite burst modem if curiousity gets the better of you all...;-)

thanks

Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ My Uncle was from 8th G.D.P, his picture still hangs in the No. 2 BFT sqdn. I joined much much later, I guess out of boredom...;-). Gp Capt Cecil mentioned late Air Commodore Hatmi, his son, Fawad is my course mate and was my roomate in the academy.

I would read stories about Rafiqqi, Cecil, Alam, and would dream that I was flying formations with them and and would cover the leader in fight...:-) I really did ...:-), oh well, it was a nice read, and yes, in my opinion if it matters, folks like you should have been given your due place, but honestly, don`t feel bad if you did, because history has made a place of you itself...:-)

waheed.

Of Men and Cars

RE: Author

Hey, I haven`t seen a whole lot of Saabs or Jeeps, but what I do see is the mass marriage tendency in desiz to AQUIRE, OWN, AND ENJOY WITH ALL ITS RIGHTS AND GAS MILEAGE OF A FREAK`N CAMARY.

You go to a desi function or a social and all you see is this CAMARY car dealership in the parking lot. What I want to know is why are desiz so much OBSESSED with TA-YO-TA KAY-ME-REE...???

cheers

Soulmate? Re: Author

How about live and let live, let people do what ever they please with a caveat, that they will be responsible for their own decisions in life, parents have lived their lives they way the chose and pleased them, this whole nonsense about figuring out even the littlest details about one`s grand childern is so bogus, people get so focused and hung up on this crap that they lose focus on the big picture and generally their obession makes everything go wrong. So about it letting it off the throttle a bit, let people make their own goddamn decisions for a change, LET THE &%$# GO, so they can learn life the right way and GROW UP FOR A CHANGE.

Our Blind Nuclear Prophets Re: ROmair,

Also, name me one strategic and military conflict starting from 47, that you think generals won for our side. Accept it, they are NO LEADERS, they have hogged, stolen and drained the hard eaned dollars and made clowns out of all of us and are still at it.