Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later zeemax #206:

Oh, I agree with the quoted paragraph ... I think it is spot on. Instead of fretting about who said it, please consider the extent to which it is accurate (no matter how damaging to your personal and national self-esteem).

Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later I thought those paragraphs provided an excellent concise summary of the way in which the bomb fatally deformed Pakistanis' self-image and clouded their political judgment. Pakistan, a country without strengths across the board to balance its purported nuclear weapon capability (however acquired), has come to lean too heavily on the bomb to provide that which it could not. Shooting the messenger (be he Hunood or Yahood) will not solve any of Pakistan's problems.

Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later [The previous post got garbled. My apologies ...]

Re. zeemax, tahmed32, hamidm2 #various:

Venerable Pakistani uncles:

You may notice that the first line of #165 said:

{{Quoted without attribution (for now)}}

Those paragraphs were lifted bodily from Stephen Philip Cohen's 'The Idea of Pakistan' (published by Brookings Institution Press in September 2004), pp 80-81. The section in question is entitled 'Nuclear Weapons and Pakistan's Identity'. The ellipses are mine, but nothing has been omitted that radically alters the thrust of those paragraphs.

Cohen is an American who has been visiting, studying and writing about the subcontinent for the better past of four decades. He may be a scheming Yahood (judging by his name), but to the best of my knowledge he is not a smoldering monkey-man from India.

Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later Re. zeemax, tahmed32, hamidm2 #various:

Venerable Pakistani uncles:

You may notice that the first line of #165 said:

{{Quoted without attribution (for now)}}

Those paragraphs were lifted bodily from Stephen Philip Cohen's

Pakistan\'s Nuclear Test - Ten Years Later Quoted without attribution (for now):

“The weapons program ... had several important consequences. For one thing, it led the army to think of ways in which it could actively put pressure on India by interfering in Indian politics ... For another, both civilian and military officials put the nuclear program at the center of public propaganda, and a personality cult grew up around A Q Khan after his role was revealed in 1992. ... The belief grew, especially after 1990, that the nuclear program proved the greatness of Pakistan's science and technology, and that Pakistan had assumed its rightful place as the most advanced Muslim country. The bomb confirmed the sought-for image of Pakistan as combining Islam and technology, never mind that most of the technology was either stolen from a European nuclear facility or provided by China.

The nuclear program thus warped judgments about Pakistan's real strengths and weaknesses. The truth was that Pakistan's bomb program was a triumph of espionage and assistance from a friendly power, not the product of a technologically advanced state. For purposes of deterrence and war fighting the difference is unimportant, but in the context of Pakistan's deeper security, political, and social problems, the bomb made it possible to perpetuate the delusion that this was a technologically advanced country. Strategically, it enabled Pakistan to put off the day of reckoning with India, by providing the appearance of equality between the two states.

The bomb was thought of as a magic bullet that could resolve any problems. It even united Pakistanis politically as a symbol of defiance of both India and the West – if Pakistan could stand up to both forces and prevail, there was no limit to what the country could do. ..... In contrast, other new nuclear states such as China, Israel, and India, did not allow the bomb to change their basic strategies or to warp their domestic politics.”

Don’t Hang Sarabjeet Moeed Pirzada wants 'India-Pakistan friendship' to bloom so that he and his class of well-connected elite Pakistanis, having positioned themselves as its brokers, can thereby enrich themselves. In this game that the robber elite of the criminal enterprise called the Pakistani state wants to play, Sarabjit Singh is simply a miserable pawn. Whether or not he hangs is a function not of his innocence or guilt but simply of reasons of state and elite interests.

Not content with toying with Sarabjeet Singh's fate, Mr. Pirzada wants to use him as leverage to interfere in India's domestic affairs by wangling clemency for Afzal Guru.

India needs to do nothing to ease the Pakistani consciousness. The Pakistani state and establishment deserve nothing but utter and total contempt.

Between nations there can be no friendship, only cold, hard calculations of interest. A realistic unsentimental relationship between the two nations, based on their actual comparative strengths and different stages of technological, economic, social and political development, will only be possible once the deluge has swept Moeed Pirzada and his ilk away.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful tahmed32:

{{read a book from some objective scholar like Karen Armstrong or Joe Esposito first}}

'Nuff said.

The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics dm #382

You are addressing someone who, among other things, seems to be under the impression that all internet traffic is routed through computers located in the United States. His 'reasoning', such as it is, that the US is the world leader in promoting free speech, etc., appears to be predicated on that incorrect assumption.

He does not know that he does not know. He will now triumphantly repeat this bogus argument, in one form or another, for the next half-a-dozen years. Attempts to enlighten him are unlikely to be successful.

The Vicious Circle of Violence pmishra2 #31

{{If you really want to talk about tolerance, start with your hometown. How many buddhist, hindu and sikh temples are there? What is their condition? How visible are these minorities? Have their numbers grown or shrunk in the last 50 years??}}

#92

{{If islam is inherently multi-cultural and peaceful, where are the sikh, hindu and buddhist temples of Afghanistan and Pakistan? Hindu and Budhist traditions were active in this region for 3000 years - and most important - where are the hindus, sikhs and buddhists???}}

Pmishra babu, you have repeated the very same question/assertion like a stuck gramophone record in #31, #66, #92, #112, #115, #135. We heard you the first time. Please cease your inane blabbering.

There is absolutely no contradiction between the peaceful and tolerant nature of Islam and the relative absence of other religious traditions in Afghanistan and in the North-West of the Indian subcontinent. When the light of the True Faith arrived there a little more than a millennium ago, tolerant and humane Islamic rulers gave all facilities for benighted Buddhists and Hindus to continue to practice their outworn creeds.

However, the more intelligent sections of the populace – just like the inhabitants of Mecca in 630 CE - perceived the truly enlightened, rational and universalistic nature of Islam – as opposed to the parochial, particularistic and irrational nature of their ancestral faiths – and willingly embraced the Religion of Peace and Justice. Only a few pandit-hates clung to their ancestral religion hoping to lord it over the common people again should Islam ever be vanquished. If the thinking people and the masses voted with their feet for the enlightenment of al-Islam over the barbaric jahalat of Hinduism and Buddhism, it is because the former is manifestly superior in every way to the primitive mindsets and superstitious traditions embodied by the pagan creeds – not because of any supposed intolerance from Muslims.

And naturally, once the pagan creeds lost their adherents, their temples and monasteries were no longer needed and fell into disrepair. Some no doubt were put to better use or simply dismantled – others just crumbled away. QED.

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Coming next on Chowk FP: the great Islamic egalitarianism as the finest of al-Islam's manifold contributions to South Asia.

Pakistan: The War of Drones Ajeya,

That is my quick assessment based on what I've seen of you. I may well be wrong. You can ignore that sentence if you wish as a pointless distraction, dismiss me as an imbecile, whatever.

Look, I am not trying to defeat you or contradict you or score one over you or patronise you or anything of the sort. I was only trying to be helpful (with the rest of that post). If it helps you at all (seems most unlikely at this point), well and good. If it seems like utter nonsense, so much the better - consign it to the rubbish bin or just forget about it.

Pakistan: The War of Drones Ajeya,

Knowing that it is dangerous to even seem to be offering you advice, I will still try.

Eklavya is a born teacher - he was one in his previous janma, and a superlative one, I am sure. The best teachers and expositors do not force-feed their students – they point them ever so gently in a certain direction, give them just the right hints and let the students through active mental participation attain the desired conclusions, which will seem to have an air of absolute irrefutable inevitability about them and become permanent features of the students' mental landscape.

Surely there is manliness in being effective in furthering your ends, even in an understated and unobtrusive way. Eklavya is lethally effective, and he furthers his ends without ever being unpleasant or losing his temper even with certifiable duffers, posturing hypocritical frauds, ranting madmen and delusional megalomaniacs. I wish I had the temperament to emulate him.

How did Hindus Become Vegetarians? laddu #295, #289, #287

Tauba astaghfirullah! You are indeed the vilest of the idolatrous Hindu infidels. If you were before me I would strike off your head for blaspheming against our Beloved Nabi. Begone, infidelator!

akcheema #296

I am grieved to see that you willfully persist in the sinful folly of apostasy. You are not merely destined for jahannum yourself -- you are gravely endangering the akhirat of impressionable young Muslims through your slick anti-Islamic sophistry! You are the worst kind of murtid – the proselytizing kind!

Alas, you have been misled by your exposure to Western science and by your hubristic pride in your own intellect. Know then that Western science has uncovered only an infinitesimal fraction of the truth that is known to Allah SWT, of which much more can be glimpsed by a thorough study of the Majestic Quran and through the Islamic occult sciences. You should be employing your energies and your formidable dialectical skills to advance the cause of Islam, not to erect roadblocks in its path. Did not our Noble Prophet Muhammad (SAW) himself say that the ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr?

Verily, there is neither guts nor glory in apostasy! Cheema sahib, it is still not too late to repent of your hubris, recant from your apostasy and revert to the Straight Path which is Islam!

In conclusion let me leave you with the immortal words of Allama Muhammad Iqbal Lahori, patron saint of Pakistan:

Khaira na kar saka mujhe jalwa e danish e Farang
Surma hai meri aankh ka khaak e Madina o Najaf.

(The glare of Western sciences could not confuse my vision,
For the dust of Najaf and Medina is the collyrium of my eyes.)

Reflect on these words and you may yet see the light of Truth.

How did Hindus Become Vegetarians? akcheema #286

{{Sometime I wonder.........................Do you guys ever think OR are you just robots conditioned by your parents/teachers/society etc............}}

Cheema sahib, I am truly distressed by your unrepentant ladiniat. Forget about Ananth07 – he is a najis Hindu idolator and cannot be expected to know better. You however have had the inestimable advantage of a Muslim upbringing. Despite this you have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked by Western science and your own arrogant confidence in the powers of the unaided human intellect.

Ab bhi vakth hai – you can still repent of your repellent apostasy and revert to the Straight Path which was revealed for all times to come in the Quran-ul-Furqan Tariq-ul-Majid! If you require advice or assistance there are many erudite alims available on Chowk itself. Revert, revert, revert – or go to hell!

How did Hindus Become Vegetarians? Ananth07 #283

{{The fact is Islam is a derived object of parent judeo christain object…. With a few new properties.}}

Incorrect. Totally false and baseless. Islam is the base class, if you will.

Islam is the Straight Path – the original and pristine religion – the Religion of Nature, in perfect accord with reason and rationality itself.

Unfortunately humankind being perverse strayed from the path and fell into error. That is why Allah SWT sent prophets like Moses and Jesus to bring humans back to the original faith. Despite these many mercies mankind still went astray. Judaism and Christianity in their present or even historic forms are not progenitors of Islam – they are corruptions of the original and perfect message which is Islam.

Finally Allah SWT sent Prophet Muhammad as the Final Prophet to convey the true message in its pristine original form so that mankind might revert to the Straight Path once and for all. This is a great gift which Allah SWT has given to you, a mercy for all mankind. No further law-bearing prophets are required or expected; those who claim to be such are nothing but monsters of heretical depravity.

The Naval War College Bomb Blasts stuka #205

{{Because neither he nor any other Pakistani who has a view point at variance with the comprehensive ideology of Pakistan as defined by Mullah Military Alliance has anything to do with the establishment's proxy war.}}

With respect, that is a little too cute. Sahib might not have initiated the proxy war on his own but he had no qualms pretending for years that his country had nothing to do with it, berating every Indian who brought it up as a hate-monger, throwing Gujarat in their faces as though that would cancel out what his country was up to, etc. At some point he becomes complicit by inaction and stonewalling.

Let us be fair – this does not apply to every well-connected Pakistani. Ejaz Haider quite openly wrote an article in TFT five years ago entitled 'Sectarianism and State Strategy' examining the linkages between Pakistan's Kashmir policy and proliferation of sectarian organizations in Pakistan, and considering the dilemmas this posed for the Pakistani establishment. The likes of hamidm, ali_1, urstruly would have no problem acknowledging a Pakistan-based and supported jihad in J&K, of which they thoroughly approve. Their only regret would be that it has not succeeded in its aims.

{{Aleph Null, would u gratefully acknowledge the Hindus who participated in the riots of Gujarat?}}

Stuka, I would never claim that the mobs who burnt Muslims alive, ripped pregnant womens bellies open, performed all manner of unspeakable atrocities, are not Indians. Like it or not, they are my fellow countrymen; they don't cease do be so because they are an embarrassment or worse to me. Squarely facing the facts is the first step in changing anything for the better.

{{Often in fact, he finds himself in the typical place of a moderate Muslim - a rock and a hard place.}}

He finds himself in the typical pose of a moderate Muslim – with his head buried ostrich-like in the sand, or immersed up to the neck in the river in Egypt.

The Naval War College Bomb Blasts tahmed32 #186

{{Was this the initiative of the Pakistan army (proxy war, along the lines in afghanistan against soviets), or that of the Indian government (changing the constitution to allow non-kashmiris to invest in kashmir)?}}

After all these years on Chowk this savant still believes that the Indian government “changed the constitution” to “allow non-Kashmiris to invest in Kashmir.” He is completely incapable of learning.

{{although ultimately I believe both factors had a hand (and no doubt the "proxy war" started by "our" people has done incredible damage and is now a Frankenstein monster for Pakistan}}

Sahib, why do you insist on using quotation marks in referring to the fighters in proxy war? Madarsa-educated Pakistani jihadis from Sialkot, Gujranwala, Bahawalpur etc. were good enough to fight and die in the jihad against the Indian state in Jammu and Kashmir. Their trainers and handlers were employed and directed by organs of the Pakistani state with the full knowledge and approval of the highest levels of your country's establishment. Why are you trying to disown these people and their deeds? Shouldn't you gratefully acknowledge the supreme sacrifice of those jihadis who embraced shahadat, and the energy and enterprise of the operatives who controlled them, all to further your country's strategic goals and the material interests of well-connected elite Pakistanis like you?