Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan

#117 by tahmed32

bongdongs #116 just ate you alive!!!

I can`t believe this. Are you sure you don`t know what he was refering to?????
Come on!!! you can do better than that.
....but then you are a nice man and these guys- they are con artist!!!!.

Hats off to you bongdongs!!!!

Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan
# 86 satyamvada

“The Pakistani decision-makers are caught in a bind - If they give up on Kashmir,
their internal differences will come to the fore.”

Yes! The conventional wisdom says that too. Apparently, the army is caught in this myth also. The army can still be at the helms in Pakistan and find some workable solution to Kashmir and that is not beyond the realm of possibilities. There are no institutions or political parties left in Pakistan that can replace the army in the next 20-25 years. If circumstances change, some political parties in Pakistan can get in with the help of the army and can stay in power with the help of the army. What it means is that Pakistan would have a coalition of the army and political parties. Much like what they have now but with political parties that have better representation and share more power rather then just be the B team.

We have Turkey’s model before us. Turkey did have a conflict that helped the Turkish army but now they have created an effective alliance and coalition with political parties and don’t have to rely on the conflict to maintain control over the state. In other words, there can be a genuine working relationship between the political parties and the army at least until the foreseeable future.

The problem is that Pakistan army lacks the foresight and forward policy to allow such an arrangement until it is forced by the US and India. If the army continued to have the mindset they have now, it would be hard to bore this kind of arrangement into the thick skulls of the army generals.

Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan
Now that everybody is so lovey-dovey, I will do my share.

Here is a little story as it appeared in
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/memoryspeaks/story/173_0_12_0_C/

Feb 04, 04 -- MemorySpeaks: UP
A `family` that was Hindu and Muslim

Dr S D Sharma, now 80, is in retirement. He reminisces about a `brother` who went away to Pakistan but stayed in touch till he died.
“I grew up in Kanpur, where my father was a doctor. Ours was a large family, and my mother was known for her strict ways with children. We were nevertheless, a merry band of 10 children -- siblings and cousins--, that lived in the rambling house. Mummy, as we all called her, showered us with love, but could be a real tyrant if we did not study. For her it was imperative that we do well in school, as she intuitively knew that learning was the key to the greater things in life. And what was even more remarkable was that she had the same view for both boys and girls
“One of my father’s good friends was a Muslim trader. We knew him as Khalid Chacha. He was an imposing man, with a long beard and we were always in awe of him. One day, Khalid Chacha came, holding the hand of a young boy, maybe 10 years old.
``That is when I first met Umar. Umar was Khalid Chacha`s son, and was, as we learnt later, a naughty boy who hated studies. My father and Khalid Chacha had decided that only Mummy could get him to study, so Umar would come and live with us, in our home.
“Umar turned out to be a lovely boy and he became my best friend. He lived with us for over 10 years, till he passed his BA. Initially it was hard to get him to study, but later it was Umar who decided that he preferred living with us, even though he had to work hard at his books.
“In 1947, Umar’s family left for Pakistan. We were bewildered, hurt, sad and also a little bit angry at their decision to leave. But we did not know the power of love. We all thought we would never see him again.
“Umar Bhai died in Rawalpindi in 1990. Each and every year till then, political conditions and regulations permitting, Umar made his ‘pilgrimage’ to India. As the rules demanded, he had to fill in the names of people he would visit. And the names would be those of my family, all Hindu names. This surprised the authorities so much that once they asked him why he came every year to meet Hindus.
“His answer was the simple: “They are the only family I have”. ``The heart has its reasons that reason cannot understand,`` said a French poet. Well Umar Bhai proved it in a remarkable way.”
Dr Sharma now lives a quiet retired life in Delhi. He wonders what became of Umar`s children. Do Hindu and Muslim children grow up in the same household now? Or has the Partition put paid to all that?
--Anuradha Bakshi

V. S. Naipaul #32 # 33 dost-mittar

“Let us say that I am a Hindu, Ram Das……………………``followers to abandon their past histories, culture, and identities``, what is?``

That is like stretching it a little too far but then you are making a point to the person who equates an author’s observations to attacks on religions. Why is a religion so fragile that it cannot handle a little intellectual critique?
BTW,
Julaha = Ansari

Quereshi = Qasai- Gosht(meat) katna wala (only for people from UP. I think panjabi qureshi are not Qasai.
Syed = Hindu converts mostly around Delhi. Converted during the Aurangzeb period. They initially were called “Shah” and then became Syed. There are plenty of Syed in Pakistan who switched it to Syed after the partition.
Now there a few more that I know, ...would leave it at that for the time being!!!

Most of the converts in Punjab, upper Sindh and Baluchistan did not change their last names after the conversion.

To Die For.....the War at Wana
#42 nazarhayatkhan

I cannot refute or disagree with any thing in your post. Nevertheless, Was the Pakistani govt not aware of it too? I had mentioned in my post that Pakistan govt is fully aware of what goes on in the tribal area.
“the Pakistan govt knows fully what is going on in the tribal area. It has a network of informers in the area and deep relations with all sardars, maliks, and people right in the heart of the tribal belt. So please don’t assume that the fed govt in Pakistan is naïve or simple.”-hossp #28

Particularly after the US attacks on Afghanistan the tribal belt is under the microscope. It is not that these foreigners just appeared on the scene from nowhere. They were allowed to build their strength for two years. The ammo that they had was not airdropped to them. It traveled thru the railroads and truck links mostly thru the Pakistani territory. Now please don’t tell me that the tribal manufacture sophisticated weaponry that can be used in pitched battle with the regular well-equipped Pakistani army.

The Bulletproof Land cruisers and the small flatbeds are not manufactures in the tribal belt they have traveled thru the legal Pakistan territory to get to the tribal areas and eventually to terrorists. It is not a matter of focusing on one issue; it is a matter of understanding the conditions behind the issue. Devil is in the details.

This may be unconfirmed news but we learnt thru the media that Bulletproof Land cruiser was allowed to take its passengers to somewhere. The Pakistan Army surrounds an area and the US is maintaining vigilance over the air and a Land cruiser disappears into mostly non-asphalt or most likely unpaved surface without being challenged by anybody??? Just who is kidding whom??

We still don’t know how many of them were actually foreigners. Nothing more will unfold. This news will die in a couple of more days as it has served its purpose.

Khan Sahib, I would assume that people should ask questions before blaming the poor hillbillies.

People do get caught up in the hype. We are all guilty of that at different times. Still it does not hurt to question the intents when there is overwhelming evidence that something else was cooking.

The US admin is irate due to questions about its incompetence. The Iraq situation is getting out of hand. This US admin needs to make good news and the Pakistan govt obliges by providing some dead bodies and fake news about “high value” target. Was it a pure coincidence that Aaron Brown of CNN just happened to be there when Pakistan decided to go in Wana. Aaron Brown normally would not travel with Colin Powel, unless he was promised big news or may be he was also part of the subterfuge.

This may be speculation on my part but often with the little knowledge that we have thru the media, we can only do as much. Right or wrong only time would tell.

To Die For.....the War at Wana
echobum! Repeat after me. The correct dialog:

Ubb tera kiya ho ga kalia?

Repeat this verbatim and say it umpteenth time like you do with the Quran, w/o using your head too often!!!!

Damn! this cheesehead can`t even remember what his brother said in the movie!!!!

Musharraf Will Die
tahmad #109

“I agree with some points you make, and beg to differ on others.”
Fair enough! I don’t expect you to agree with everything I write. That would not be fair to assume on my part.
“A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.” tahmad

The reason I make the distinction is based on the impact different sets of Jehadi’s make on Pakistan. The Jehadis in Pakistan, who are championing the rights of Kashmir and Islam are more menacing to me than the Jihadi who are making noises about the US.

The US also makes this distinction. It agrees with India that the Jihadi in Kashmir are terrorists but it does not ask the Pakistan Army to take military action against them. The US only asks Pakistan to close it borders so that these Jihadi cannot go to India and involve in the act of terrorism. The same US would be different if the Pakistani Jihadi turn around and take cudgel against the US. The US on the other hand puts pressure on Pakistan to take army actions against the jihadi that are perceived dangerous to the US.

Let’s be clear on one thing, IMO, Most of jihadi are killer or have intentions to kill innocent people for some unknown gains. I seriously doubt that most of the people arrested in wana, seemed even capably of fully formatting their support for OBL. They were mercenaries and if the Pakistan army took them out then that is fine with me too. But the question that I have is why the Jihadi in Pakistan have free reins?

There seems to be apparently no action against the Jihadi in Pakistan. Most of them are still free and still involved in terrorist activism under different guises. In fact, the Pakistan govt has effectively nullified the US ban on the Jihadi outfits by not monitoring the Jihadi in different outfits. The Lahore guy and the Masood guy from Bahawlpur are still free and the Binori mosque in Karachi or the madarssa in NWFP are still under the same management. I can accept the argument that all madarass are not bad and madarassas have a traditional role in Pakistani society. However, the ones, whose links to active terrorism have been amply documented are still allowed to operate under the same management.

It appears that the seeds of old complexity between the army and Jihadi are being re-sowed and that is a worrisome phenomenon. Hence, my questioning of the army intentions in cleansing Pakistan of Jihadi outfits completely. If the army continues to deal with the Jihadi in Pakistan with kid gloves then chances of seeing any improvement in Pakistan are doubtful.

A Suitable Boy
#39 #36

I forgot to mention Nyda…

The poor Nani Jan of #34 still misses her old flame. She keeps tabs on him and tells the story on the chowk so he can read it too. We will soon hear some nasty stories of lovers’ quarrels again.

And you little girl Nyda,
Stop playing games with boys. They will be nasty when they get the opportunity to “Dunk”…Like the dunk in Urdu. Nine months is a long time to regret….

Musharraf Will Die #105 by tahmed32

“This is the case with terrorists - they have been deluded into madness. Regardless of the reasons the person went mad (brainwashing by mullah teachers no doubt would have much to do with it), the fact is that he is a danger to other people. So, it is not a question of love or hate, but one of defending civilized society from these individuals.”

Exactly tahmad!!!

Lets not be too giddy about the US and the Pakistani intentions. There is lots of blame and culpability to go around! All I ask is to find out who the real Jihadi are?

The real Jihadi are not hiding in Wana, they are very much in the cities and big houses in Pakistan. The army and other law enforcement agencies within Pakistan are protecting them.

The army finds it convenient to attack people in Wana but what has it done inside Pakistan?
The madarssa’s are still there and the sponsors of these maddarsa’s, the people in MMA are supporting the army and undercutting any chance of liberal and secular democracy in Pakistan.

I can understand your support of the army as many liberal people like yourself think that may be the army would eliminate these terrorists and Jihadi within the body politics in Pakistan. What we see really happening is that same Jihadi and terrorists are becoming the main supporters of the military govt. in Pakistan. Obviously, they (Jihadi) don’t see the army as a threat to their bread and butter.

The Jihadi inside of Pakistan have no sympathy with the renegades and terrorists from the Arab countries but they certainly want to protect their own in Lahore, Karachi, and Islamabad.

The MMA types were never committed to OBL or Alqueda but they have huge sympathy with the Taliban. So, even if the terrorists and Jihadi from Arab and former soviet countries are eliminated, we in Pakistan would still have to deal with the Taliban supporters and they are all in the army protection right now.

We also need to understand the US commitment to anti-terrorism. The terrorists that can affect the US are all Arabs and the OBL followers in Saudi Arabia etc. The Pakistan terrorists have only verbal bone to pick with the US and they pose no serious threat to the US inside or outside of the US. Therefore, the US is not as keen on Pakistani Jihadi elimination as it is in eliminating the Arab terrorists.

The US interest in Pakistan Jihadi would wane within a short period of time and we the poor liberal Pakistanis would again end up being on the short end of Jihadi stick.

To Die For.....the War at Wana #17 ferozk
#16 nazarhayatkhan
#10 hamidm2


Good intentions and wishful thinking don’t solve problems. Legally the Sardari system ended in Pakistan in 1974. But has it really ended? The failures of the legal system, courts, and the police etc. have been pushing people back to the archaic systems. Feudalism and Tribal systems won’t end by some administrative actions or by military actions. A persistent economic agenda and reforms would end the system. Still the cultural and social impact of the system would not end in another 100 or so years. Feudalism won’t end if you take away their lands. It will just help the process. The fragmentation of the society will end the feudal. How swiftly would that happen, would depend on economic activity in the whole country.
Can they integrate the tribal belt into mainstream Pakistan? Yes! They can do it with an administrative action but can anybody take that admin action? Not now, not in another 25 years. Integrating the tribal belt would mean affecting the demographics of the NWFP province. Adding another 5 million pashtuns into NWFP would seriously alter the delicate balance between the Hazaras and the Pashtuns. It would require lots of study and political will on the part of the govt, and nobody should expect that from the Mushy government.

The Pakistan govt is faking people into believing that foreign Jihadi were in the tribal area w/o its knowledge. The tribal despite being “azad” are actually not azad. Federal govt has huge structure in the tribal areas and has it since the British period. The Indian reservations in the US are exempt from lots of federal and state laws but it does not mean that the US government does not know what goes on there.

Similarly, the Pakistan govt knows fully what is going on in the tribal area. It has a network of informers in the area and deep relations with all sardars, maliks, and people right in the heart of the tribal belt. So please don’t assume that the fed govt in Pakistan is naïve or simple. Why those foreign jehadi were not prevented from digging in that area before last month does not require a whole lot of adding the pieces of puzzle together.

These poor tribesmen are a pawn in a bigger game. Can you even believe by looking at the pictures being shown on TV that these middle aged, uneducated, uncouth people can harass or even intimidate the Pakistan Army or the US army? Spare me the thought.

Just think where those fancy flatbed trucks and Land cruisers are coming from. Who is paying for the ammunitions and luxuries in the tribal area? The US and the Pak govt. have blocked all public donations to the jehadi still, jehadi are not short of money. Follow the money and you would know who is behind the whole saga of OBL and his cohorts.

Try to think about OBL grievance with the US and the Saudi regime to grasp the situation. Killing the poor hillbillies is just a smokescreen.

To Die For.....the War at Wana
#10 by hamidm2

I am not in some beauty contest.

Here is a joke for you to lighten this up for you.

One day while doing door-to-door market research, this guy knocks on a door and is greeted by a beautiful young housewife.
“Hello,” he starts, “I’m doing some research for a petroleum jelly manufacturer. Have you ever used the product?”
“Yes. My husband and I use it during sex,” she answers.
The researcher is taken aback. “Um, er, I admire you for your honesty,” he continues. “Can you tell me exactly how you use it?”
“Sure, we put it on the doorknob so the kids can’t get in.”

The game being played is much bigger than the hillbillies they are showing all over the place. These hillbillies are the petroleum jelly to keep us kids away from finding out what is going on under the covers.
Most of those arrested don’t even know what Islam means and can’t even place the US on the map. They are as much soldiers of misfortune as the other guys in the Para- military uniforms.

Pakistan is a confederation of wacko led by some lunatic weed smokers in the guise of army generals wearing fake ornaments.

If you smoked pot in the early 80`s you would know that you had to separate the seeds unless you bought the primo sinsemilla (SP) at $10 a gram.
These Generals are always begging for ten dollars to have a seedless weed.

That’s all there is to it.

A Suitable Boy
Nyda,

Yeah! Listen to these Nani Jans and Dadi Jans giving you advice from the nostalgic past. I didn’t marry him ‘cos “I always took him as friend” mumbo jumbo. But Nani jan keeps full track of his life including being the baby sitter to his kids with a foreign wife- Damn! Just who is foreign in the US?

Get real. Nani Jan is right in one area though, no matter where you are –US or the Pakiland or in other provinces like Canada or Britain- be prepared to do what your family asks you to do with reason or elope!!!!

Otherwise you will be another Nani Jan advising little girls about “he-was-my-childhood-buddy” But-he-did-not-marry-me!!!!

…And yeah don’t forget the “Hell yeah” Dadi Jan too!!!!!

To Die For.....the War at Wana
What is this a tombstone???

I am beginning to seriously question the intent of the Chowk editorial staff, when they allow these “bay sar o paw” articles to appear on a constant basis.

She is lamenting the death of a few soldiers who died after killing several men, women, and children themselves. “I say “khus kam Jehan Paak”. She talks about the surrender of these soldiers in 1971 w/o mentioning a word about the millions these same soldiers killed. Some Bengalis were killed on orders from their officers, and more were killed to just satisfy these “jawans” hatred for Bengalis. A major portion of Bengalis were killed because the same army “Ghabro Jawans’ were on a rampage to rape young girls, mothers, and housewives.

As long as poor Punjabi mothers would continue to send their kids in the service of the sadistic generals of the Pakistan army, these “Jawans” would continue to kill and die. When these Jawans die their family members get some compensation. What do the families of the people these Jawan kill get? Diddly Scot.

Would their death help people of Punjab realize their follies? No way. The middleclass in Punjab, as usual would be screaming its heads off to urge the Generals to kill more rebels. Like when Pakistan was being saved for Punjabi Middleclass, these same thugs and their masters in Army GHQ in Rawalpindi were massacring the people of Bengal.

These same Jawans have become instrumental in keeping the army Generals in power in Pakistan and it is a matter of time before these Jawans would be ordered to run amok in the heart of Lahore to silence the opposition to army rule in Pakistan. Nothing is beyond these army Generals. This idiotic Punjabi middleclass will eventually pay the price when their own daughters would be raped and molested by the same “Jawans” who would reincarnate to save Pakistan again and again.

Get ready to write more tombstones...the war is not over yet...

Musharraf Will Die Messiah, Mutahir and mushy!!!! Unbelievable stuff from some hopefully educated people. One takes political cue from a cab driver and the other thinks driving cab is like running a business.

Pakistan is waiting for a messiah- Mushy is no messiah the real scarry looking-messiah is hiding in the caves. He can’t come out along with couple of other minor messiah(s).

It is not satirical to wish that Mushy is dead; it is even more pathetic to call him messiah or Mutahir.

I for one cannot support a military govt still, I am pretty convinced that to fight this menace called terrorism and its sponsors; we may have to give the General some latitude.

Hamidm is right that BB or NS would have done the same, but I am sure they would have been backstabbed by the army several times already.
We know who ruined Pakistan before and we also know that the army Generals would destroy the country again. But before doing that if the US can make the army destroy its own children (terrorists) then it is one hell of thing to do.

Calling Mushy, Mutahir is like calling Ayub, De Gaulle. What this no-brain types don’t understand that both Mutahir and De Gaulle came to fore thru legitimate means by winning elections and based their political success on some political ideals and economic program. The dynamics are different and the people are different. Both De Gaulle and Mutahir were civilians when they ran for the offices in their respective counties. The Mushman came thru the backdoor like Ayub and would go thru the backdoor like Ayub did before him.

``Pakistan is making economic progress under the wussies. The economy has grown 6%.``
That is a vague statement. Where that economic growth has come from?
The US has pumped several billions already in Pakistan during the last 2 1/2 years and has enforced laws that ensure only legal money transfers to Pakistan. All of sudden Pakistan is flushed with cash and the lames are claiming that Pakistan is making huge progress under the wussies.
Recently a representative from the US chamber of Commerce flatly told Pakistanis that investments are not possible in Pakistan until Pakistan shows some stability in Law and order and democracy situation.
The US makes Pakistan a non-NATO friend because there is no other way for even the US to encourage its own capital to invest in Pakistan. The credit rating is better because there is money in the bank the investment rating is going south for some time now. Shoukat Aziz is wizard. What a joke!!!

But that is all present. What about future?

If Mushman does resign from the army on Dec 2004, then what is the guarantee that the new COAS would also support his policies? It is not like some law that the new COAS would have to support the Mushman. History suggests that COAS of the Pakistan army have minds of their own and own ambitions.
The current US admin clearly wants the three stooges-OBL, Az-Zawarhi, and Omar captured. Captured before the elections- after the election, the US interest in Pakistan, terrorists and the stooges would wane.

What if Mushman delivers all three stooges and the US pats him on the back and walks out of Mushman’s life. What Mushman is going to do about it?

Elections are in Nov. There is a good 40% chance at this time that this admin may not return- True that next admin won’t be drastically different but they have their own ideas about the Jihadi. What if the new admin highlights ISI relations with Jihadi and sends Mushman on the wild goose chase?

What has history taught us- The leadership w/o roots in people cannot turn a country around. Mushman cannot turn Pakistan around. I will be happy if he sends the terrorists in his army and outside of it packing.

Why expect more?????

Peaceful Strokes tahmad and rsridhar,

We are again traveling the beaten path. I agree with Sridhar that there does not seem to be any attempt by the Pakistan Army to keep the process moving smoothly. The army will continue to throw some roadblocks in the process that the army does not really believe in.
It is true that the Kashmir issue cannot be just wished away but bringing the jehadi and Kashmir issue on every turn just bears out that the army would keep the seeds of discord in front to walk away from the current process, whenever convenient .
To have an effective peace process going from both sides, there have to be some interests; both economic and political, that find it important to move the process forward.

In India there seems to be several interested groups with honest motives to improve relations with Pakistan. Indian businesses see an opportunity to get into a market not big but in close proximity. It is whole lot less overhead to sell goods to Pakistan then to may be some Middle East countries. Indian entertainment Industry sees a captive market that is already hooked on its products. Indian’s growing international trade sector sees peace on the border as a prelude to more security it can offer to international investors.

These interests are not necessarily depended upon having good relations with Pakistan. But they do bring in sanity and purpose to the peace process. If the relations in Pak-India don’t move forward these groups can live with that too.

What do we have in Pakistan??? Food industry sector in Pakistan sees some daylight in improving relations. Other traders just would rather have distribution relationship with Indian businesses to make some money. Pakistan has small industrial sector but lots of traders who support the peace with India. Most of these traders are based in Sindh or Karachi and Indian would find people of Sindh to be genuinely interested in peace with India rather than the people of Punjab who are led by their emotional noses into this process.

Now if we look at the factor working against the peace process in Pakistan, we find that the Army itself is the biggest hurdle as better relations with India hurt Pakistan army’s pocket book more than anything else. We just can’t assume that the army would fall on the sword.
If one party in the process is going to be adversely impacted, no sane person can assume that that party would follow the path of its own destruction for a long period.

The Pakistan army is moving forward reluctantly because it is under pressure on so many fronts that it needs to keep at least some fronts quiet for x number of period. Once the pressure is relieved in other areas, Pakistan army will go back to its old ways.

Just briefly touch on real live examples. India wants the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus route open from the very beginning; it is Pakistan, which is throwing one obstacle after another. Take the issue of opening the border in Sindh-Rajasthan, India wants to open that border to open a major trade route but Pakistan tells that it would take a year to 1 ½ year to fix a few kilometer of road!!! The people just don’t know that trade is already taking place- road or no road, and opening of the border would just increase that trade manifold.

On the political side, BJP finds it convenient to continue the peace process as it helps to move forward in finding some solution in Kashmir. Not the solution that Pakistan is looking for but the solution that can put Kashmir way down on the list. The nature of BJP constituency depends on some anti-Pakistan sentiments and BJP and its allies won`t give that up as that would continue to bring them votes and political legitimacy with the north Indian belt or Hinduvta crowd. If BJP completely drops its stand on Pakistan then it is not much different than Congress in terms on economic program for the people of India. Hence we often see ridiculous statements of confederation between the two countries. We know that that will not happen in a long time but it helps the BJP to sell its idea of peace with Pakistan to its constituents.

We have factors on both sides that can derail the current process. There are just more of them on Pakistan side than on the Indian side.

I am not going to discount the current process. It is helpful as there is no doubt that only country that can help democracy in Pakistan is India. Pakistan democratic forces cannot beat the Pakistan Army without the Indian help. However, that time will come a little bit later.

PS. tahamd. The survey that you reported with 86%approval of Mushy must be done in the army HQ in Rawalpindi. Mushy will not find this much support in Pakistan. You can analyze that too. Sindh, Baluchistan, and NWFP population is still about 40% of Pakistan population and Mush has zero support there.

Rights (un)Defined

Zahar,

I know! This world is confusing. I go both ways and like it.

What do you think????

Pl. don`t dear me. I like informal relations.

So, are you ready to proceed??