Islamic Utopia? sattar#92

``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``

Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.

You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)

1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?

The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.

we await the qadiyani response

2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?

The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba

we await the qadiyani response

3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add

The qadiyani response is awaited

4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on

The qadiyani response is awaited

Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.

Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????

I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post

May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan

Islamic Utopia?

Some observations on this factually incorrect article.


``Little did they know that the farsighted Maudoodi was also rejoicing.
`Maulana Maudoodi came out in the favor of the resolution declaring proudly that ‘the country we had considered our enemy till yesterday, now we consider our home.’ ``

1. Please read ``Tehreek e Aazaade e Hind aur Musalmaan by Maudoodi``, what Maudoodi was opposing was a State created in the name of Islam by a set that was definitly secular in approach and was he right. look at the mess Pakistan is in now.

2.``After surviving the commuted death penalty for inciting sectarian violence against the Ahmadis,``

The death sentence was passed by a military tribunal NOT a court of law, and it was based on Maudoodis booklet ``Qadiani Masalaa`` which does not incite hatred but is a scholarly evaluation of the Ahmadi claims.


``What happened in Afghanistan under the Taliban is a scary picture of what might happen if the revivalists were ever to triumph convincingly over the modernists``

3. Sadly your lack of knowledge of the Afghan society makes you give sweeping statements like these. What happened in Afghanistan was more a result of their traditions mixed with a form of Islam rejected by Maudoodi and the Jamaat.


``The Islamic worldview especially on human rights, women’s rights, religious freedom, freedom of conscience and democracy, needs to be updated immediately``.

4. Would you kindly enlighten me with what YOU THINK is the Islamic worldview on these issues???

`` The path to revitalization of the Islamic order lies in the acceptance of modernity``.

5. Definition of moderanity??????

Now YLH how many book written by Maudoodi have you read? An honest answer please. Judging from your rather uneducated opinion i guess not one, the mature way to express your opposition to a person or his ideas is to first read his works. I strongly suggest you do that.
Further always define phrases or ``buzzwords`` you use in your writing else what you write is meaningless.

Sincerely
Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities sattar2

Dear Sattar

You did not counter a single argument I put forward, what you did was to repeat ad b`nauseum the ahmadiyyah point of view with which I disagree. Then you take the line that this proves your point!!!! Your argument is of the form

PREMISE 1: This is my argument

PREMISE 2: I am right

CONCLUSION: Hence proved that I am right

Come now, even you should have more intelligence than that.

Can the ahmadiyyah not defend their religion?

If not I implore you to see the light and come back into the fold of Islam.

The weakness in your argument is

1. You did not `prove` that my argument is faulty (repeating this line ad nauseum doesnt PROVE it ok.

2. You could not counter the historical evidence againt ANY new calimant to Prophethood

3. The Link you gave have 2 muslim scholars of worth saying something which could be interpreted as supporting either point of view. I gave you a list of Ulema extending back to the Prophet SAW, unfortunately you have no answer to that

Finally in any argument never lose sight of rationality

I hope Allah opens your eyes to the truth.

Adnan

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation urstruly#174

Dear usrstruly

This particular fatwaa of imam sahib was for a Christian who had committed blasphemy.

wassalaam

adnan

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation dear urstruly

something which i failed to inquire in previous posts

have you taken a look at ibn-e-tamiyyah`s

``as sarim al maslool ala shaatim ur rasool``

one might be opposed to some of imam sahibs opinions but this work definitely needs to be read

adnan

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation #133

hamidm

``.... i have absolutely no desire to engage in civil discourse or ``exchange ideas`` on indefensible subjects like wife-beatings, blasphemy laws, qisas, diyat, slavery or jinns or hobgoblins or gang-rape ........``

Mr hamidm

The least you can do is be honest.

You pointed out 4 entirely different things and tried to group them together, also insinuating that Islam sanctions all of them.

1.Blasphemy law

Qisas & Diyat

These are Islamic Laws.

2. ``Wife beating``

Slavery

These are social issues, Islam dicourages them.

3. Jinns

These have nothing to do with 1 & 2

4. Hobgoblins

This is a figment of ur vivid imagination

You may say ``I will not discuss these`` but by lumping them together you are simply letting your hatred of Islam get the better of reason.

``....there is no such thing as a meaningful debate with evil schemers who cloak their devious plans in pedantic sophistry (and academic papers)........``

Are you not trying your hand at a bit of sophistry yourself here?

Grow up and use your brain before writing anything

Adnan

P.S.... but my labrador is still interested in hearing your case against him and the shitzu ....

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation

Dear bhai urstruly

AOA

I have been following ur replies to various posts

Most of these people dont know what they are talking about why do you even bother replying to their nonsense. I think one should just say

``awaaz e sagaan kam na kunad rizq e gadaraa``

and ignore them

Adnan

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation

A nice link on the MARRIAGE OF HAZRAT AYESA RA TO THE PROPHET SAW

http://www.jamaat.org/qa/ayeshara.html

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities How Not to Reform Universities

by Pervez Hoodbhoy

sattar

`` I can explain why ¡§khatam¡¨ means ¡§ultimate¡¨ ¡K but as I have repeatedly stated ¡K you must first admit that your argument ¡K based on the context of the verse ¡K was flawed. If you cannot admit to this simple fact ¡K there¡¦s no point discussing the issue with you any more.``

I have explained my point of view in detail, in the previous post, can you not see now that your arguments make no sense?

``..2. Allah promised Quran will be protected ¡K and it is. Allah did not promise ullema will not go astray ¡K and it is plain to see that ullema have gone astray. This is further supported by hadith ¡K which you now conveniently ignore.``

Mr Sattar show some intelligence please, you are ignoring my argument and repeating something that is circular,

Time and again you quote that it is written in the Quran, to prove the authenticity of Quran, see?

``..3. Companions of the dear Prophet waged war against claimants of prophets ¡K and killed them (from what I know) ¡K since they were fake prophets...``

Mr Sattar again I marvel at your argument, you write

``..since they were fake..``

how was this discovered, their being fake? was there a long debate? No sir as soon as anyone claimed to being a Prophet the Sahaba RA waged war against him as NO Prophet can appear after Prophet Mohammad SAW

``..4. Ahmadi-Muslims consider Mirza Sahib a prophet ¡K and the Promised Messiah foretold by the Dear Prophet (pbuh). Quran asks us to believe in Allah¡¦s prophets. Rejecting Mirza Sahib ¡K is therefore an error on the part of a person ¡K from an Ahmadi point of view. However ¡K such people still may be granted a place in heaven ¡K depending up their actions and duty towards Allah and His creations. Allah is the Master of the Day of Judgment ¡K not Mirza Sahib ¡K not Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) ¡K not Maudoodi.``

A blatant lie, some quoted from Ahmadiyyah literature:

``Allah has revealed to me that he who does not follow me and does not give me his oath of allegiance and remains in opposition is disobeying the will of Allah and His Rasul and is Jahannami

Collection of PostersMirza Ghulam Qadiani``

AND

``This is strange that you consider the person who rejects me and the person who calls me Kafir as two different persons, whereas in the eyes of God he is the same type; because he who does not accept me is because he considers me a fabricator...``

Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani

AND

``All those Muslims who do not enter the fold of the Promised Messiah, whether or not they have heard of Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Qadiani) are considered Kafirs and are beyond the pale of Islam.``

Aeena-e-Sadaqat, By Bashir-uddin Mahmud

AND

``God has revealed it to me that the person who did not believe in me after having heard about me is not a Muslim.``

Al-Fazl, Qadian, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani

AND

``It has been revealed to me that the person who did not follow me and did not enter into my fold, is disobedient and as such, should be thrown into Hell.``

Miyar-ul-Akhyar, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani

``He (Mirza Ghulam Qadiani) has regarded him as an infidel who knows him to be truthful and does not belie him in speech but has not yet entered the fold.``

Tashi-ul-Azhan, Miyan Mahmood

``A man once asked the first caliph of the Messiah (Hakim Nuruddin Sahib) whether it was possible to attain salvation without having faith in mirza Sahib? He replied: `If the Word of God is based on truth, it is not possible to attain salvation without having faith in Mirza Sahib.``

Aa`ina-e-Sadaqat, Miyan Mahmood Ahmad

May I add that there is a very interesting interview of Hakim Nooruddin`s son of the Lahori jamaat which you might want to see.

AND

``It seems that the Promised Messiah had also suspected that the word `Muslim` which he used also for non-Ahmadis might be wrongly understood. So, he has made it clear in his writings occasionally that the work `Muslim` which he used for also non-Ahmadis meant `those who claimed to be Muslims.` hence, wherever he has used that term for non-Ahmadis, he means by it those who claim to be Muslims, for he could not have recognized those who denied him as Muslims under divine instructions.``

Kalimatul Fasl, Mirza Bashir Ahmad

AND

``To declare those who denied the Holy Prophet(SAW) in his first advent as Kafirs and outside the fold of Islam but to regard the deniers of his second advent (Mirza Ghulam) as Muslim is an insult to the Prophet and a joke against the signs of Allah, since the Promised Messiah has, in the Khutba-e-Ilhamia, compared the mutual relation between the first and the second advents of the Holy Prophet to the relations between the crescent and the full moon.``

Al-Fadl, Qadiani Mazhab

AND

``The point is now quite clear. If it is Kofr to deny the Merciful Prophet, it must also be Kofr to deny the Promised Messiah, because the Promised Messiah is in no way a separate being from the Merciful Prophet; rather he is the same (Muhammad). If anyone is not considered a Kafir for denying the promised Messiah, then anyone else who denies the Merciful Prophet should not also be considered a Kafir. How is it possible that denying him in his first advent should be considered Kofr, but denying him in his second advent should not be regarded as Kofr, even thought, as claimed by the Promised Messiah, his spiritual attainment is stronger, more complete, and more severe.``

Kalimatul Fasl, Review of Religions

AND

``Thus, according to this verse, every such person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus, or who believes in Jesus but does not believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him), or believes in Muhammad (peace be upon him) but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not only a kafir but pukka kafir and excluded from the fold of Islam from Kalimat-ul-Fasal, by Mirza Bashir Ahmad``

AND ON AND ON AND ON

So at least be honest in your claims!!

``...Chance and design-by-accident ¡K are arguments put forward by atheists ¡K and are negated by Quran. I am satisfied with my understanding on this issue ¡K but would certainly continue to read and learn more. It would help you if you stop arguing like an atheist ¡K while claiming to be following Quran. Make up your mind ¡K you cannot have both!``

Mr Satter I expected better, at LEAST BE HONEST, I never said I believed in these arguments, but the point is can you refute them on basis of logic and science, I claim NO, as I mentioned ad nauseum BELIEF AND FAITH are just BELIEF AND FAITH

after we believe the rest of the religion follows logically.

Finally you said corruption in Ulema is recent, I gave you a list of Ulema who declared for 1400 years that there will be no Prophet after Prophet Mohammad SAW, you say that this supports your point that there was debate about a Prophet????

PLEASE AT LEAST TRY TO SOUND LOGICAL

sincerely

Adnan

Blasphemy Law: An Academic Investigation Dear bhai urstruly

Great article.

My only comment is that justice is not possible without the enforcement of the entire Shariah Law.

A bit of British Law, a bit of Shariah Law etc. is in my view a recipe for injustice as has happened in the case of the blasphemy law and the Hudood Ordinance.

The laws are right in accordance with Isalm but is it fair to award Islamic punishments without granting Islamic rights?

Is it not creating a Taliban like State?

Sincerely

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities sattar2

Dear Mr Sattar

As you dont seem to appreciate my point of view let me explain things more clearly

The issue here was whether ``KHATIM UN NABIYYIN`` means LAST or GREATEST rt?

Heres your point of view:

``Yes, I certainly pointed out contradiction in your explanation of “khattam”. You claimed that since the prophet was the “last” prophet, it was important that he struck down the pagan Arab custom by marrying his adopted slave-son’s divorced wife … and therefore “khattam” implies “last”.

I objected that … the prophet accomplished other greater goals … (conveyed the Quran; abolished riba, gambling, drinking; taught salaat; struck alliances with enemies; established remarkable standards of justice and treatment of slaves and POWS; established rights of women … etc. etc.). While a lot of these accomplishments are mentioned in Quran … nowhere is the prophet being the “last” prophet mentioned … except in the case of this marriage!

Why so much emphasis is placed on this marriage … in context of the prophet being the “last” prophet … while other bigger accomplishments are mentioned without reference to the “last” prophet? ``

The point you put forward is:

Why did Allah not mention the finality of Prophethood elsewhere?

Well there was an ingrained custom in the pagan society of arab that an adopted son was like the real son and as such one could NEVER marry his wife, be she divorced or widowed. Allah wanted to put an end to this custom and so he commanded his Prophet SAW to do so, this gave the mushrikeen and munafiqeen lethal ammo to hurl on the Prphet SAW.

It was argued that even if the status of the adopted sons wife is not the same as that of a daughter in law, there was NO compulsion for the Prophet to marry Hazrat Zainab RA.

And indeed this is a point to ponder, what was the need? Couldnt the Prophet SAW just explain this law?

But the fact was that he SAW was the last Prophet of Allah and as such it was his duty to prove by example this law of Allah.

In the words of Maulana Maudoodi:

These hypocrites argued that Zainab was the wife of an adopted son of the Holy Prophet and by this connection she stood in the position of theProphet`s daughter in-law. Hence, after her divorce from Zaid, the Prophet had taken his own daughter-in-law as wife.

In order to refute this allegation Allah told clearly in verse 37 that this marriage had Divine sanction behind it and was made to serve as a lawful precedent for Muslim men to marry the wives of their adopted sons after they had been divorced by their husbands. Later in verses 38 and 39, Allah affirmed that no power could hinder the Prophet from discharging a Divine obligation. The Prophets are ordained to fear God, not the people. It has been an invariable practice of the Apostles to transmit the Divine message without any extraneous care and to perform the duties enjoined upon them by Allah without fear or hesitation. Afterwards a verse was revealed which extinguished the basis of all objections. In the first place, they had charged ``You have taken your daughter-in-law as wife, in contravention of your own law that the wife of a son is forbidden to his father.``

In refutation of this charge it was affirmed by the Almighty:

``Muhammad had no sons among ye men...``

thereby making absolutely clear that the man whose divorced wife was taken into wedlock by the Prophet being not his real son; the act, therefore did not imply violation of it.

The argument of their second charge ran thus: ``Admitted that the adopted son is not the real one, and on that basis a father might lawfully marry the divorced spouse of his adopted son, but where was the compulsion for the Prophet to do so?``

Allah affirmed in answer to this charge:

``But, verily, he is the Apostle of Allah``.

The implication is that it was Allah`s mandate to the Holy Prophet to wipe out all prejudices and declare all taboos that pagan custom had unnecessarily imposed upon the people, as lawful. In this respect the Prophet`s action was unequivocal and left no room for doubt.

In order to lay particular emphasis upon this point Allah observes: (Khatim Al-Nabbiyeen)

``And he is the last in the line of Prophets,``

which means that no messenger nor even a Prophet charged with the mission of carrying out reforms in the sphere of Law or society which might have been omitted (God forbid) during the lifetime of Muhammad (PBUH) will ever succeed him. Since Allah ordained the ministry of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to be final, it was, therefore, imperative that he should accomplish the task of uprooting this pagan custom. ``

I hope this make it clear WHY is only ``LAST`` a suitable meaning of KHATAM here.

I went to the link you asked me to, nowhere has the khatam verse been translated in the way you want it to be.

sincerely

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities #: 183

sattar2

Unfortunately Mr Sattar now that you seem to run out of arguments (in the last two posts you have not counterd a single argument that I put forward) all you can do is be rude, fine, it tells a lot about your intellect.

My questions in the two posts were:

1. How does ``GREATEST`` fit in place of LAST.

You did not reply

2. Allah indeed tells us that the Quran is protected, but this verse is itself in the Quran ok. So how can we believe any of this?

You did not reply

3. Why did the Prophets SAW companions RA wage war against anyone claiming Prphethood?? And this continues to our day. Not once did they even consider the possibility of a Prophet after Prophet Mohammad SAW ok.

Do you have a counter example?

4. Do the Ahmadiyyah consider the muslims who do not believe in the Prophethood of Mirza Sahib believers? Would such people in your (Ahmadiyyah) view be granted a place in Heaven?

5. As far as divisions are concerned they simply arise bcos of different emphasis placed on rituals (alll based on the life of the Prophet) by different sect. There is nothing wrong in this. All sects stood united against the Ahmadiyyah threat to Islam.

And btw what of the Lahori and Qadiyani groups in your own jamaat?



The only quotation of yours I will comment is this one as it is an absurdity and mockery of science. I requested you to look up two references on science, you cannot be bothered to do so.

``Amino acids have been artificially created … yes … but the probability of such occurrences … followed by formation of complex proteins … and life as we know it … in a few billion years … cannot be explained on chance.``

IT CAN AND IT HAS BEEN ok

tch tch.. No arguments left, only a little speech?? I hope your Jamaat has better people to put across their point of view and in a more mature manner

Adnan

And to anyone interested who has been following these posts two good references on Ahmadiyyah are

1. Dr Mohammad Iqbal`s ``Islam Aur Ahmadiyyat``

2. Maulana Maudoodi`s ``Qadiyani Masala`` (A military court sentenced Maluna to death for writing this)

How Not to Reform Universities sattar2

Got this from the net, same can be fpund in Qadiyani Masala by Maudoodi.

You said ``only recently has the chain of Ulema become corrupt``, heres a selection from 1400 years of Islamic thought

The Interpretation of well-known Muslim Scholars on

The Finality of Prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat)

(In Chronological Order)

Allama Ibn-e- Jarir Tabri (224-310 A.H.) interprets Khatam-an-Nabiyeen to mean that Muhammad(SAW) is the last prophet, the one who has closed up Prophethood or sealed it. This seal will not be opened for anyone till the Day of Judgment.

(Tafsir Ibn-e-Jarir, P. 12, Vol. 22, Egypt)

Mohiyyus Sunnah Baghawi (D. 510 A.H.) has written that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen indicte that Allah(SWT) has closed the line of Prophethood after Prophet Muhammad(SAW).... Ibn-e-Abbas says that Allah(SWT) has declared that there is no Prophet after him(SAW).

(Tafsir Malimut-tanzil, P. 158, Vol. 3, Egypt)

Allama Zamakhshari (467-538 A.H.) has written: ``If you say how can he(SAW) be the Last Prophet when Jesus(pbuh) will come in the future ages, I will reply that he(SAW) is the Last Prophet in the sense that after him no New Prophet will come; Jesus(pbuh) is one of those Prophets who have already come before him. When Jesus(pbuh) will come again, he will follow the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and will face Qibla in his salat; this means that he will come as an individual of this Ummah.

Imam Razi (543-606 A.H.) is of the opinion that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen are used to show that the Sharia of Islam is complete. The view that no prophet will come after Muahmmad(SAW) is also more affectionate to and particular about his(SAW) Ummah and gives the significance of the words in more details. This is like the example of a son who has no guardian after his father.

(Tafsir-e-Kabir, P. 581, Vol. 6, Egypt)

Allama Baizavi (D. 685 A.H.) says that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the last of all Prophets. He has sealed the Prophethood of all Prophets, or their Prophethood has been sealed by him. It makes no difference that Jesus(pbuh) will come again after him, because he will come as a follower of his(SAW) Sharia.

(Tafsir-e-Bizavi, P. 196, Vol. 2, Egypt)

Allama Nasafi (D. 710 A.H.) recorded that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is at the end of all Prophets(pbut); and after him there will be no New Prophet; and Jesus(pbuh) was made a Prophet before him(SAW); and when he comes again, he will come as a follower of the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) as if he (Jesus) were an individual of this Ummah.

(Tafsir-e-Madarik-ut-Tanzil, P. 234, Vol. 3, Egypt)

Allama Allauddin Khazin (D. 725 A.H.) has expressed the view that Allah(SWT) has ended the line of Prophethood through him(SAW). Therefore, neither there is Prophethood after him, nor any other Prophet during his own time. Indeed, Ibn-e-Abbas has said that God has declared there will be no Prophet after him(SAW).

(Tafsir-e-Khazin, P. 218, Vol. 5, Egypt)

Allama Ibn-e-Kaseer (D. 774 A.H.) has written that Khatam-an-Nabiyeen contains the final proof of the fact that there will be no Prophet after him(SAW); neither will there be a Prophet with Sharia, since the office of prophethood with Sharia is higher than that of mere Prophethood.

(Tafsir-Ibn-e-Kaseer, P. 493, Vol. 3, Egypt)

Allama Mohammad Bin Yakoob Ferozabadi has interpreted these words to mean that Allah(SWT) has ended the line of Prophethood through him(SAW). Therefore, after him, there will be no New Prophet.

(Tafsir Ibn-e-Abbas, P. 262, Egypt)

Allama Moinuddin Bin Safiuddin (D. 889 A.H.) has written that the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the last of all Prophets and Jesus(pbuh) will come again as a follower of his Sharia.

(Jaame-ul-Bayan, P. 359, Dehli)

Allama Suyuti (D. 911 A.H.) says that the words Khatam-an-Nabiyeen mean there will be no New Prophet after him(SAW) and when Jesus(pbuh) will come again, he will act according to the Sharia of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).

(Jalalaim Ala Hamish Jamal, P. 442, Vol. 3)

Shah Mohammad Anwer Kashmiri has seen the meaning of Khatam-an-Nabiyeen to be that there will be no Prophet after him(SAW) and Jesus(pbuh) has already been made a Prophet before him(SAW).

(Mushkilatul Quran, P. 227, Dehli)

Sheikh Ismail Haqqi (D. 1137 A.H.) has read the phrase Khatam-an-Nabiyeen with the upsound of ``T`` which means the instrument by which something is closed (sealed). The meaning is that he(SAW) was the last of all Prophets by whom the office of all Prophets has been sealed. In Persian, ``Seal of Prophets`` means that by him the doors of Prophethood have been sealed, and the line of Prophethood terminated once and for all. Some other scholars have read this with a down sound of ``T`` which indicates he was ``Khatim`` in the sense of ``Fa`ail``. In Persian, it will mean the one who seals (ends) the prophets, in which case, the meaning is the same.

(Tafsir Ruhul Bayan, P. 188, Vol. 22, Egypt)

Allama Suleman Bin Umar Bin Jama (D. 1204 A.H.) has stated that ``It is in the knowledge of Allah, who has complete knowledge of all things, that there will be no Prophet after Prophet Muhammad(SAW).``

(Al-Futuhaatul Ilahiya, P. 442, Vol. 3, Egypt)

Allama Muhammad Sharbeeni Khatib says that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is the end of all Prophets. He(SAW) has ended the line of Prophethood, because his message is for the entire world and the Holy Quran is his miracle. After him, then, there is no need for a new prophet.... The meaning of Khatam-an-Nabiyeen is that after Hazrat Muhammad(SAW), there will be no Prophet with New Sharia, and there will be no Prophethood after him. The declaration that he is not the father of any man also proves that there will be no Prophets after him.

(Tafsir Sirajul Munir, P. 252, Vol. 3, Lucknow)

Allama Shaukani (D. 1255 A.H.) has written that the majority of scholars have read the word Khatam-an-Nabiyeen with the down sound of ``T`` and Asaim has read it with the up sound. The first means that he(SAW) has sealed the Prophets meaning that he has come at the very end of them. The other means that he is the seal of Prophets by which they have been completed and by the joining of him the group of Prophets has been decorated.

(Tafsir-e-Fathul Qadeer, P. 275, Vol. 4, Egypt)

Allama Aaloosi (D. 1270 A.H.) writes that Hazrat Muhammad(SAW) is also Khatimul Mursaleen meaning that after his Prophethood there will be no Prophethood at all.

(Tafsir Roohul Ma`ani, P. 23, Vol. 22)

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities Reply #: 178

sattar2

My comments:

You wrote

``..The chain of ullema has become corrupt indeed. This explains why Muslims are divided into more ......corrupt Jews at the time of the first Messiah (i.e. Issa).Quran is preserved … because of Allah’s promise. Never did Allah promise that ullema will not go astray. ....``

Comment

Do you not see the CIRCULARITY here. You argue

Premises

1.the chain of Ulema is corrupt

2.the Quran has come to us through this chain

3.In the Quran it is written that it is protected

Conclusion

4.So the Quran is protected

I hope you realize the total absurdity of such a line of reasoning.

You wrote:

``.... there is a hadith that clearly states that the Muslim ullema in the latter days … will be like Jews who had gone astray!``

Comments:

There are Many Many Hadith that clearly state the FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD ok

You wrote:

``...Here’s a link to the topic of continuation of prophethood. There are 3 headings … the first one expl...``

Comments

My dear fellow have you ever bothered to read the Tafaseer of Shah Waliullah and Ibn Arabi?

I suggest you go and look up the Khatam verse ok.

You have just thrown your own arguments out.

You wrote:

``The argument you presented … very forcefully … on the context of the verse … fell apart. I have highlighted the weakness in your argument … and ..``

Comments:

Thats the whole point, I do not believe that what you said weakened my argument ok.

Now lets repeat it once more..

Here are the preceeding verses:

````There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute````

then

```` Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.````

And finally the khatam verse

````Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.````

Now then I simply cannot believe that any rational thinking human would say that

1.khatim-un-Nabayyin means Greatest of all Prophets

2.The verses CLEARLY in my view and that of 1400 years of Islamic thought mean that he is the LAST Prophet. ok!!

I fail to see how your GREATEST etc. could be logically filled in

So your translation in my view is

1. Out of context and illogical

2. And as I mentioned also lexicographically incorrect

I hope you see things now!!

You wrote:

``...the Qurnic verses that implore us to ponder over this universe to convince ourselves of existence of Allah Almighty. You argue otherwise … try to negate Quran … and insist that pondering over Allah’s creations … is useless andm proves nothing. If you do not have faith in Quran … it is your problem … not mine.``

Comments:

To get nasty is easy but you only come out badly in an argument by being nasty. Always remember that.

Now I NEVER said that pondering over Allah`s creations is useless, you are putting words in my mouth, another cheap shot but I`ll let it pass, my position is FAITH comes first, then the rest. And FAITH IS JUST THAT ``FAITH``

You wrote:

``I maintain that scientists are unable to explain the formation of even the most basic proteins and chemicals … and life-sustaining processes … on theory of chance and design by accident. This is completely consistent with the message of Quran … that you try to downplay.``

Comments:

You can maintain whatever you like but the point is THIS IS NOT WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN BY SCIENCE.

Amino acids have been created artificially, (in the 60`s I believe), there is a new science of complexity out there, all answers are NOT known but we can see the direction, as I said you might want to read Paul Davies` ``GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS`` to get some idea if science.

You wrote:

``On belief …

A few things should be taken on “belief” … for example … virgin birth … till some rational, reasonable explanation is discovered. This is the correct understanding of belief in “ghaib”. This underscores the truthfulness and beauty of Quran. ... and human experience support no such notions.``

Comments:

So you are doing a pick and choose thing, what fails to fit into the Ahmadiyya belief set is GHAIB the rest .....

You wrote:

``It is reasonable and rational … but since you have failed to respect human reasoning … as displayed by your posts … there is no point in debating this issue with you (hint … you are incorrectly interpreting the concept of reincarnation … perhaps based on out-of-context quotes in the books on “Islam” you are reading! … wink).``

Comments:

I`ll compose a long post with quotes from YOUR books if you are willing to debate the issue.

Curses and foul mouthing people does nothing for your argument, when will you people learn that.

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities sattar2

My comments on your observations``

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``The chain of ullema spreading over 1400 years … has become corrupt … and is no longer serving the cause of Islam. This explains the present miserable state of Muslims all across the world. They are no longer following the message of Quran … and are suffering for their rebellion against Allah. Does the sound adequate …?``

MY COMMENT:

NO it does not. The Quran has come to us form the same chain ok!! How can you trust one and not the other?

Muslims are miserable bcos the bulk of common muslims have stopped following the Quran.

And btw this DOES NOT constitute an argument on your part!

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``..Muslim scholars have debated the possibility of coming of future prophets throughout the history … and some renowned scholars have agreed that the door to non-law bearing prophethood remains open.......``

MY COMMENT:

Nonsense! Muslim scholars NEVER did that. ok

The reason is simple Finality of Prophethood is proven in the Quran and also many many Hadith. Would you kindly list some of these GREAT SCHOLARS

Moreover as soon as ANYONE claimed Prophethood right from the time of Sahaba RA (be it Musailmah or Bahauddin or Mirza Sahib) the muslims waged war against them, there was no question of asking them for proofs etc. Please read a bit of Islamic History.

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``On khatam …

I highlighted the weakness in your argument on interpreting “khatam” as “last” … by showing that you are placing more importance on prophet’s marriage … than his other bigger accomplishments ......the “khatam” verse. Now that your argument is not holding up … you want to introduce Maudoodi’s Arabic grammar! I explained the context of this verse in details earlier … when you first challenged me. But you could not come up with an argument …"

MY COMMENT:

Mr Sattar by repeating ad nauseam I WON I WON I WON you simply come out as immature, this is not the way to argue, I`ll ignore it this time though ok

As to the issue of Khatam there are SEVERAL reasons for rejecting Mirza Sahibs claim as have Ulema done, one is the context issue, arabic lexicography is another, etc

Now if I point out other reasons as well as the context one I fail to understand whats wrong with it???

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``On the issue of Allah being All Powerful … and Merciful …"

MY COMMENT:

Mr Sattar the only reason I brought up this isswue was bcos you were harping on LOGICAL LOGICAL ok!!

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``See now … in order to try to prove me wrong … you have taken the position of an atheist!``

MY COMMENT:

No I have NOT. Do you read stuff while sleeping??

I was simply pointing out that some things have to be Believed you cant really justify them.

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``And now you are telling me that Quran’s message is not correct … that pondering over Allah creations serves no purpose …"

MY OBSERVATION:

I am NOT, do not put words into my mouth, I expect you to be intellectually honest in any discussion. You knew the context I was talking in.

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``To prove me wrong … you insist that there is no Hand of Allah in creation of life … it all just happened!``

MY COMMENT:

I do not insist on this, I am saying this is a point of view you cannot refute, we need to take a LEAP OF FAITH ok!!

YOUR OBSERVATION:

`` Sahib … Allah is the Creator of this universe … and He challenges us to come up with alternative theories of the creation. The scientist community … while insisting on absence of an intelligent creator … are unable to explain the “evolution” that has taken place in only a few billion years … resulting in formation of highly complex life as we know it.``

MY COMMENT:

Rubbish, this shows you have NO IDEA of the theory of evolution, for your education read the transcripts of the ``SCOPES TRIAL`` you can find them online, you`ll find enough scientific evidence ok.

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``“ … Those who are wronged in this world … will be compensated in the hereafter. Quran repeatedly reminds us of this. Allah is able to compensate those who sacrificed on His behalf … BECAUSE He is All Powerful … and All Merciful! …”``

MY COMMENT:

You miss the argument because you are not prepared to think about it, I`ll put it in a form easier to understand

WHY DOES HE NEED TO DO THIS? WHY NOT KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY HERE? WHY THIS GAME?

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``What’s the point of debating any issue with you if you clearly contradict the basic theme of Quran … insist that religion can have no rationality … and faith is a completely blind leap of faith!``

MY COMMENT:

My position is some basic things in religion are a leap of faith ok. The rest is logical.

YOUR OBSERVATION:

``With such a thought process … what can I possibly discuss with you??? This has nothing to do with whether I am an Ahmadi or not.``

MY COMMENT:

The thing is you push the view LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC which you cant prove yourself, making sweeping statements is nor PROOF ok. Your being Ahmadi is important bcos Ahmadiyyat starts from a non sensical idea that Mirza Sahib is the reincarnation of Prphet Mohammad SAW ok

So when it come to Ahmadiyyat no logic is required

IS this a contradiction or what?

Now Mr Sattar maybe you are a dyslexic so here are my arguments in few sentences

1. Not everything in religion can be proven, some things have to be BELIEVED

2. To prove (1) I out forward the Atheist/Agnostic point of view NOT that I support it, but just to prove (1)

3. After (1) when we BELIEVE in an all powerful GOD miracles are easy to understand

4. And since this post is NOT on science I`ll spare you on making the statement WITHOUT examples that many scinetific things were proved in the Quran before being discovered in SCIENCE, but think about it, IS IT TRUE? No! not for physical science, bcos Quran is NOT a book of science GOT IT?

Finally NEVER in an argument try to cheat by misquoting people as you did in this post, people lose respect for you

Adnan

How Not to Reform Universities

krashid#: 155

Dear krashid

my comments

``...You are confusing issues. I have asked you, from where in Koran it is suggested to strive for

Islamic Empire or Islamic State.``

The Prophet`s SAW life is the interpretation of Quran and he did establish and expand the Islamic empire ok.

``...Prophet PBUH was cajoled by many bribes in Mecca to stop his....of having the power.``

Indeed it is for the glory of Allah`s religion that the Islamic Empire has to be established. I agree.

``.. To give you an example majority of Danda Bardar and Klashinkov Bardar Mujahideen of Jamiat later joined MQM. And were preaching Mohajir Qaumiat with much more force than Islam``

An example of what???????????????????

``...@nd thing. Everything done in Islamic History may or may not be Islamic. For example:``

The simple answer to your examples is that in all

cases each party thaought that they were simply carrying out the commands of Allah (please see Khilafat o Mulookiyat by Maudoodi to clear confusion on these issues)

``... Muawiya RZAH told his warriors to put Koran on their spears to make determination.``

Just a point in passing it was Hazrat Amr RA who did that ok

``...The movement in current century against imperialism foreign domination etc in last analysis are nationalistic movements.``

Wrong, I disagree, these were spurred by religion, in mosr cases, that they were hijacked by secularists is another story

``With Mujahid like I described before one day fighting for and next day fighting against Islam (meaning Jamiat). What they stand for is unclear.

Bhai krashid, DO NOT BASE YOUR ENTIRE IDEOLOGY ON HATE ok. Else you`ll end up being no better than Lashkar e Jhangvi type people

You come out badly in any discussion, because your hatred for jamiat (for a reason you refuse to disclose) compels you to drag jamiat in a completely ridiculous manner.

`..There is no compulsion in religion simply means you cannot force me to pray or fast.``

This is NOT what the Prophet told us it means.

For sanad see Tafheem ul Quran by Maudoodi

Adnan