Teasing or Torture? Urstruly (#22)

Actually what happens is that women/girls get prepared in the morning to blow the minds of Richard Gere type MEN. And they end up uninetentionally seducing bus conductors and uncouth hourly laborers. I am sure all women enjoy being given attention by attractive men, and even more.

Think of a society where most men r gays, and most women r staright. What would happen then?

Some poet (who committed suicide---dont know his name), has said:

`jab hum he na rahay to sahab
tum bad-e-saba kehlao to kia?`

(when we r longer there---what if u r the morning sypher(or beauty queen)?`

Also reminds me of some famale french PM, who has made some controversial remarks about London. She said most women do not take notice of a scantily clad woman passing by (implying most men r homo)

Teasing or Torture? I think in a lawless poor society, all sort of crimes flourish. Isolating just one crime is wrong.

Take incest, for example. The fact that incest is under-reported in pakistan, does not mean that it does not happen. If different and weird euphemism is used for it, it also tells a lot about ``crimes of shame`` that we do not want to acknowledge or face. Compared to incest, eve-teasing or sexual harassment is not that big thing.

there r many reasons y sexual harassment is on the rise. Madhuri and Krishna on cable TV is just one reason. The other reason is that women`s participation in national life is increasing. Their mobility has increased a lot, and hence more exposure. Do we want to create a tribal society in cities?

Take any advanced country, and u will see that sexual harassment is a price that women have to pay for their independence. It is much like massive layoffs and no job secuorties in a complete free market economics. u know the risks and u r willing to take it for better good.

Why sexual harassment is more in pakistan? it is a lawless society in transition, it is poor, there r no socially accepted channels/institutions (prostitution, strip clubs, dance clubs, dating, etc.) that can take place of a stable institution like marriage. Go to any fast food restaurant in pakistan, and u will see it is being used as social club for dating.

Having said this, what can be done? There is no one answer to root out sexual harassment in particular. Everything depends on evolution of society according to its economics. We gotta get rid of religous bull$hits and traditional institutions. We have to make sure that policing is not used just for anti-riot purpose in pakistan, but for the greater good of maintaining law and order with the civilian perspective. Any other way?

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals #109 by adnan_rafiq on November 5, 2002 2:15pm PT
[
Nov 5, 2002:
[KARACHI: Altaf Hussain, leader of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), has said he would not come to Pakistan as his party workers have asked him to stay abroad.
Addressing his party stalwarts and workers via phone here at Nine Zero, Altaf Hussain said that he wanted to come back to Pakistan but was barred by the party.]

]


After making money from hindu, christian, parsi clients, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah said muslims and hindus could not live together, as they had to preserve their culture. After rebuking an old lady in his family for cirticiszing the revealing dress of his wife, Jinnah said to muslims, they needed a new country to preserver their culture. In crowded assemblies of ppl in UP and Behars, Jinnah said to emotional muslims that what they needed is not education and decent jobs on merit, but a new country far flung from the place where they r right now. When asked by God why he did not pray 5 times a day, Jinnah said to God `stupid, we did not have islamic system in india and pakistan`.

Yeah right, India ki musalmano, kab jogay gay????

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals #110 by tahmed32

[The pakistan military has been playing with fire when it used them for proxy wars in afghanistan and kashmir, and is playing with fire today by gradually building them up to become a political force in pakistan. ]

exactly. but then again, as long as west is getting more and more afraid of muslim extremists, the extremists will continue to be exploited by dictators. BB also used west`s fundamentalist fears to her advantage. The `persecution syndrome` of the religous forces, in turn, will go in their advantage.

this is a vicious circle, and turkey is more entangled in it than pakistan (even though pakistan is heading towards it). The question is where and how to break this circle?

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals tahmed (98)

[ the emergence of civilized societies in the subcontinent, with an end to ``tribal`` (i.e. religion,ethnic) hatreds, national rivalires, mob violence. ]

violence, ethnic and religous hatred r just symptoms of some disease underneath. That disease can be removed by

[And that can be done ONLY through democratic institutions (and not just ANY institution, but those that reflect the broad-based opinions of all who are affected by them)]

as shammi (100) says.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals check out site of Association of Pakistani Professionals:

http://www.aopp.org/

At the bottom of page, it says:

[Junoon’s tribute to 9/11 victims in there song “No More” shows the determination and commitment of Pakistani nation towards a world that is free of terrorism and injustice.
Download Junoon`s song ``No More``]

By the same standard Britishers r the #1 terrorist nation, as George Michael has ridiculed Tony Blair for too much servitude to Bush.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals stuka (83)

[Regardless of Musharraf or Ayub or even Zia, the upper class in Pakistan, the so called liberals, have always welcomed military intervention. Even Zia the Islamist was welcomed by the business class, the industrialists, the civil servants etc. coz he got rid of the corrupt and socialist Bhutto.]

That is so right. According to BBC survey Zia is still more popular figure than Musharraf in Lahore or panjab. In liberal class (of all regions in pak), u can still see ppl defending Musharraf, and overlooking his and his collegues involvement in kargil and afghanistan fiascos, and their secret involvement with fanatic elements.

[The middle and upper classes may not ever have supported the Jamaatis. Yet, there was hardly any principled opposition to the use of Jamaatis in Afghanistan or Kashmir. In fact, the disillusionment with Afghanistani invovement occured only after the blowback appeared in Pakistan not before. ]

again true. Jamaati women in khi used to go to houses for tableegh (preachings), and praise all such families who lost their kids in Afghanistan or kashmir. There was significant support in the middle class for justifying the kashmir jehad and the active participation of pak ppl in it. one wonders how such liberals justify huge defence budget if civilians r to be used in all covert wars with india !

In my view, there r two significant stupid mistakes by pakistan neighbours at two times. Once, when Pakistan organized Afghan rebels in Peshawer, and Soviet Union just watched doing nothing. Second, when India with sheer stupidity and cowardice of its leaders, let Pakistan bleed it since late 80s (when even American support to pak was not there). This encouraged pak army and its stupid middle class jehadi civilians to over-estimate the patience of victims of covert wars.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals nasah (78)

Musharraf is ``famous`` in western media (read washington post, ABC news, ny times, etc) as a guy who has NOT read Quran, likes whisky and gambling. Next time, when BB has to show that she is more fit to lead than Mush, she would be forced to enroll in strip clubs to show how liberal she is.

.....a perfect case of intellectual bankruptcy, in this case, of our western analysts.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals sadna (71)

u made all the right points. Let me add something more:

Islamic Tarrorism in Afghanistan was the need of Pakistan`s establishment. Had India jumped into that civilian war for dollars (and mercifully she did not), Indian muslims would have been engaged in the same activities, and doing the same things as muslims fanatics in pakistan.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals tahmed32 (72)

I just mentioned in one of my replies that socialist baluchs in 70s stood by their feudal lord, raising the slogans of ``aik he nara, aik he azam---nationalism se socialism`. if u can not get an ideal deal anywhere, u prioritize things to be done. MQM is the most dissenting and distinct voice in pakistan. period. ppl can overlook torture cells, Altaf bhai`s peeri-mureedi and a lot of other things.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals rozaiba (52)

my main objection on Junoon`s or IMK or NFK is that they promoted a culture which should have been mercy-killed long time ago, or atleast in educated class. Romanticisizng the pirs and sufis, who were utterly unsuccessfull in their lives and then they found out how thay could make a respectful living by sufisim, is simply WRONG. Reminds me of a short story by Manto, in which a thief, stealing some sugar bags, got into a well. ppl found out that the water is sweet and they made him sufi.

About Allama, I still like his poetry. I still think it is an imprtant part of urdu literature. But again, promoting Iqbal on ideological grounds is very retrogressive. We have come a long way past Iqbal. I can listen to Enimem, biching about his mom and wife, but promoting Iqbal`s biggoted ideology is then too much.

adnan_rafiq (57)

Whatever u experienced in that time, u were not alone. you name one rsistance movement in world where civilians were not hit hard by the resistance movement guerillas? South Africa? Sri Lanka? Palestine? Vietnam? I am not condoning this behavour but these things r natural.

I castigate establishment of pakistan, which is mostly protecting the interest of panjab for no other reason than maintaining civlian loyalty atleast somewhere. If u downsize defence budget, if u downsize army in some great proportion, which province is going to get hit most? Which civilian population is going to resist it hard? It is all economics and vested interests, right? I hope again, that nobody here would again be intellectually dishonest in answering these questions.

and, thanks for pointing out blatant racisim. I am sure any nationalist movement in Sindh, karachi, baluchistan, paeshawer is more than just because of racisim. Superiority of race may be one reason, but autonomy is #1 reason. I have seen socialist baluch standing with their feudal lords just because of it.

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals wajaht (58)

exactly, i agree with u. if u hear israeli supporters, they will always attack anti-semtisim of Arabs (mainly palestinians) and their hatred for USA as the main source of all evils in middle east. tahmed32 is simply a carbon copy of these ppl in our context.

tahmed32 (59)

i always consider ``racism`` as the equivalent of `sufiism`. They do not mean anything on their own. They r just symptoms of decaying society.

tahmed32 (60)

I agree Altaf Hussain is magomaniac person. He is intellectually bankrupt. But u missed my point. Whatever MQM has said in favor of Ahmedis, it is solely because of the educated vote bank it has, and because of its anti-establishment policies.

Urstruly (65)

It is very important in any historical or social analysis, that we never talk about whether that man was honest or not. What is important though, is that we take into consideration the motives and the conditioning elements in anything to happen. `sufisim` has been the target of my attack, because it was the product of illiteracy, orthodox enovironment in which ppl were looking for more spirtual things, and thats it. If Mr. X were not the pir, then Mr. Y would have bene there to fulfill this market need. I attacked Junoon and etc, because they tried to re-inroduce a dead cultural phenomenon in educated middle class society. It was an intellectual wrong and cirminal act, in my opinion. Whatever bad words i have used for pirs, it was not personal attack on their character. you can blame my immaturatity with use of words, but u should understand what i ws attacking.

thanks

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals tahmed32 (49)

saying something in favor of MQM does not mean that I am elevating it to some blame-free status. But if u tend to switch off all ur senses when u see a label of racisim somewhere, then it is ur choice.

[the issue is the miserable conditions in which 95% of Pakistanis (regardless of ethnicity) live. ]

well, this is somethign that Altaf hussain has started saying now :) irnoic, isnt it?

Autonomy is not an issue like kashmir. a person living in baluchistan or sindh has nothing to do with kashmir, but everything to do with how much his earnings r taken away by federal govt to fund panjab social welfare system (army).

The Sad Reality of Arranged Marriages in South Asia Saminasha ( #42)

``Any comments on jehaz, and kitchen accidents?``

politically correct definitions:

jehaz = fringe benefits or service/product charges of prostitutes
kicthen accidents = professional hazards, firing of disgruntled employee

Intellectual Dishonesty of Pakistani (Pseudo-) Liberals In related case, i like this article by Zafar Samdani

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag8.htm

note:

[.....

There are two regrettable facts in all these cases. The Afghanistan crisis has neither developed overnight, nor is it indigenous. It is easy to blame the Russians and the Americans but our own men of vision, the generals who aided the Americans to build and sustain religious extremism in Afghanistan, have not been questioned on their role in the tragedy befalling Pakistan`s North-eastern neighbour.

They are the main architects of Afghanistan`s misery that inspired compassionate individuals in Pakistan to step forward and atone for the sins of makers and implementers of a policy that has brought untold sufferings to Afghanistan. These good men are made to suffer, while those responsible for the disaster continue raising the dust of their warped vision and misleading the trusting public with unrealistic ideas and unachievable dreams.

....]

The Sad Reality of Arranged Marriages in South Asia Good. I like that artcile. I like condemning arranged marriages as racist institution. It is also sexist, as it promotes objectification of both sexes.

It is also form of prostitution. I fail to understand how one can speak against `normal` prostitution, but favors arranged marriages on different grounds. Another indication of pseudo intellectuals that i was referring to in my article.