He Said, She Said Reply #: 404 ylh

y do we waste so much time in understanding what Jihhah wanted Pakistan to be? Is it not ironic that in the same breath we say Jinnah wanted pakistan to be democratic? If so, then y care about what Jihhan wanted?

Pakistan should be what ppl of Pakistan wants it to be right now. Be it theocratic state of Jamaat islami type, Turkey`s type army-civilian coaltlition, or pure civilian democracy.

On side note, is there any foundating leader in the world who has left so much ambiguity about his goals and agneda (thru his deeds and statements)? If no, then there must be something fishy about his goals, right? Saying something in Uttar Perseh and Behar, and something else on western radios.

Deja Vu The freedom-loving American govt likes the idea of

referundum (implemented/proposed by some of their SOBs, Zia and Musharraf) so much that they even suggested this to Venezuela`s like-minded army men for ousting their elected govt.

``

.....

One senior official involved in the discussions

insisted that the Venezuelans use constitutional

means, like a referendum, to effect an overthrow

.....

The disclosures come as rights advocates, Latin

American diplomats and others accuse the

administration of having turned a blind eye to coup plotting activities, or even encouraged the people who temporarily removed Mr. Chávez. Such actions would place the United States at odds with its fellow members of the Organization of American States, whose charter condemns the overthrow of democratically elected governments.

...

``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html

Deja Vu Ras S:

``He is on the right track and thus far is pursuing moderation in a region where radicalism has been encouraged for too long. We can wish him well, but if the military wants to rule for 5 more years it needs to spell out its plan for a permanent exit from future intervention and to let democracy prevail in Pakistan.``

Actually the source of all radicalism is GHQ, right from 1979. This source has to be ended. Can we, in our right frame of mind, expect this from someone in GHQ?

He Said, She Said Very weak arguments in the whole artcile.

Somehow, the whole weight of the argument is on showing BB is the worst failure. And if it can be proved, then the logical consequence is that Musharraf is the best guy that pakistan can get.

Musharraf is there with the full backing of army. He represents army, not the other way around. In case of army, its vested interests always guarantee that without any accountability and with tanks they will rule the country and deprive ppl for their rights. One may never know how many secret Afghanistan or Indian operations r done without telling ppl about them. How many Talibans and LT, JM type ppl r created with tax payer`s and donor`s money.

If ML or PP come, and they bring more corruption with them, atleast ppl would know who Mr 10% or Ms 10% is. In case of army, no one has the guts to even point out a general, nor army is ready to interrogate generals or publicise any corruption case. There is atleast some token accountability with any civilian govt no matter how corrupt it is. And army has never let any civilian govt or zealot jouranists look into its records. So more chance of corruption which will never surface.

There is BIG difference in both setups. Civilian setup is million times better than Army`s, because there is some hope in it for progress and accountability.

The Evolution of The Burqa I am jumping in too late, but few points to add. Maybe someone had already made them:

1. someone said that middle class social rise somehow implies more restriction on women, like burqa. I dont think so. It is true that social-upper-class women used to wear burqa as against working class women, but in a city like Karachi, women tend to get away from burqa as they get education, employment, or the socio-economic condition gets better.

2. `Burqa` has taken a form to assert individuality as nation or religous person, just like wearing shalwar khameez, having beard, etc have become in muslim men.

3. `Burqa` is a sense of protection for women as much as loose clothes r protection for `chikna` men/boys in sex-segregated (most likely to be more homosexual type, like Peshawer).

4. `Burqa` is an internal pressure technique by ugly or normal looking women to pressure sexy looking women to be out of competition. In other words, if a woman have hairy legs or hands, she will always want to live in a society where all women atleast cover their legs and hands.

5. `Burqa` is a good technique to assert ur birth right to be self-righteous pig among bai-purdah women. It is much like a bearded muslim man.

6. `Burqa` is much like cloth sheet that u use to cover ur Ferrari, so that she does not get attention from passers by. So it is a result of objectifying women in patriarchal society.

7. `Burqa` is an expression of sense of advance guilt of potentially raped woman.

8. `Burqa` is the result of lop-sided social contract in a patriarchal society, in which women trade their freedom for laid-back and effortless lifestyle.

We, The Muslim Americans Some points:

1. It does not suk to be muslims. It sux to have brown middle-eastern looks. Red necks can not differentiate b/w Raj Nath and Abdul Ghaffar, or Mirza Amir Ahmadi and Ali Hassan, can they?

2. Why inculcate muslim, pakistani or Indian culture in ur children? if they r raised in USA (or any other counrty) as their citizen, they should be raised as Americans. period. whether they belive in islam or hindumat, it is their concern.

3. How one person is responsible for the actions of his countrymen, he does not ally with?

4. Most of the `muslim fanatics` ills in pakistan, were duly encouraged and nourished by USA. It is time red necks ask their Carter and Reagan Admins and CIA to explain their ties with all religous ppl from Gulbadin Hikmatyar to Fazlur Rehman.

5. Supporting Arab causes has nothing to due with how Arabs treat Pakistanis. It should be based on one`s moral judgement, not some `parchoon ka hissaab`. Should one start supporting Isreal because Palestinians hate Pakistanis? stupid thinking.

A Cultural Revolution? [[

dost-mittar #43

Urstruly#33

``Today all states and federal govt. spend huge budget on telling youth that narcotics are bad for your health. And these charsees and bhangees have gall to tell us that we will all be in heaven if we become charsees and bhangees.``

I resent your practice of using ``bhangees`` in a derogatory manner. Bhangees are/were the people who did what none of us ``respectable`` people wanted to do, namely, to pick up our crap and dispose it off while we covered our noses and eyes. The one thing I liked about Gandhi was that he chose to live among the bhangees in ``Bhangee`` Colonies and also chose to be his own ``bhangee``. I didn`t expect you to display this distinctly ``Hindu`` attitude.

]]

and i resent the use of `charsee` in derogatory manner. Marijuana is not bad, its excessive use is. Smoking marijuana once a day (usually in night) keeps u very relaxed and happy, and it is very stres--releasing. And it is less dangerous than smoking # of cigs.

A Cultural Revolution? As social scietist and historian Dr. Mubarak Ali has said, societies can not progress without being involved in the evolution/creation of the consumer goods or the tools of production.

As much as i could understand him, he means to say that if one businessman shows off his latest PDA, cell phone, etc., this does not indicate that the society or he has the same intellect as the society which has produced them.

I think these changes in Karachi r very superficial. The status of education is going down. People r teaching English to their new borns so that they can speak English in front of their high-status prep schools.

The worst effect of these superficial changes is the reaction from the religous and pro-establishment sections.

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Sarwari

For some reasons, ppl think that balanced debate is one in which all parties in the conflict r blamed. And this is against the very essense of debate. Read Manto to get the idea about it, when he discusses hindu-muslim fracticide in 47.

I am from pakistan, but i do not see one reason how one can support pakistan`s activities in Afghnaistan from 1979. How the GHQ pimped this country to Saudis and Americans to pit Afghans against Afghans in the name of freedom, islam, and other damned $hits.

Come mid 1980s, when Russians were pleading Americans to let them pull out, and Americans and Pakistanis were pulling them in because GHQ wants money and Americans want ebd of Soivit Union.

Come one puppet govt of Afghanistan, which under Burhan Uddin, rebelled and got out of Pakistan control, and GHQ started funnelling in money and arms (courtesy Saudis) to again cause more bloodshed.

Come Talibans, and all sort of butchery and savagery with it.

And then in kashmir, where continued arms and amunitions were supplied and pakistanis trained and dispatched to imitate what happend in Afghanistan.

Yes, some biased Indians may grunt and exaggerate more. Some might say kashmiris have always been happy and other BS. But it does not mean that one can forget pakistan past, and give GHQ a clean chit.

9/11`s responsibility is shared by Saudis, Pakistanis and Americans. I will hold USA more responsible as it was the prime motivator for all the fanatic movements beginning in 1979. But pimping pakistan to USA with som much willingness, was Pakistan`s main crime.

How can we ignore it?

A Reason For Change ISI was involoved to the extent that they were trying to cover up their paid monsters (who were out of control by then). Beyond that, they were not involved.

Lessons From the Pearl Murder Lessons to learm:

1. For Musharraf:

Don`t blame Indians for Pearl`s murder just because ur foreign trip is losing some limelight. And do not hide the murder from press ppl for the same reason. And do not support ISI all the time. And dont cite holy scripts for ur dictatorship

2. For Religous Pakistanis

Every guerilla action needs to have some contingency plans and follow-up actions. What were u thinking? He was not a some hindu indian!

3. For Liberal Pakistanis

And u thought Musharraf is the best thing that could happen to Pakistan? Sleep on.

4. For Apologetic non resident Pakistanis (like the author)

Where were these tears when the same ppl were killing hindu Indians? Why an American needs ur tears so mucc? Is this what they call racisim?

5. For Americans

Arresting aliens and keeping them incommunicado for months, keeping 100s of ppl in Cuba without POW status and any charge is not going to be cost less.

6. For Bush Admin

same as (5). But sacrificing principles in throwing all weight behind a dictator is also not going to be costless.

7. For ISI

Long live Pakistan Army should be ur motto.

8. Pakistan Army

It is ur time to sign 1971 surrender papers, why delay it?

9. For Pakistan-hating Indians

Lets just concentrate on Pakistan Army, will u? Spare the Pakistani ppl

10. For liberal Indians

When Pakistan backs off from Kashmir, it is ur duty to fill in the gap in meaningful way

11. For me

Start taking responsibility, and stop blaming others, will u?

A Convert’s Complaint: Analyzing Naipaul’s Views on Islam some more drifting thoughts...

Every religion is retrogressive, and every religion gives a feeling of self-righteousnous to its followers (and hence make enough grounds for invasion of other ppl). So just single out islam? Maybe because it is the only religion which has defied any modernisation (change from organized version to personalized version) with the progress of civilization. And why is it so? If christian cultures can produce gay deacons (even not in main stream), why could islam not produce liberal and free thinking people who defy main streams?

I think there is no reason why any social/economic change would not effect Islam, like it has effected other religious cultures. In medieval time, heretics were being thrown to fires. And now in this era, blashphemous muslims r being given death sentences. So if the frustration to keep the pan islamist movements has reached the same point as in the medieval period, then it is good indication that we r moving forward even in islam.

50 years ago, women could not vote in USA. 1 month ago, and gay couples can not adopt children. you can not buy and smoke marijuana freely in USA. Death penalty is still given to even retarded ppl. Compare this with European culture !!! Who can say that we have reached the ultimate evolution in all fields? Islam is not exception.

Free thinking and scietific progress in any society comes with an open society, not the ones under dictatorships, in which Islam is used as a controlling mechanism and justification. And keep mindful of the fact that these dictatorships r still suported by the same ppl/govt who complain of Islam`s retrogressive nature. How can any philosophy change its hardline core, if the very dictaorships based on that philosophy have been `legitimately` adjusted in the new world order?????

A Convert’s Complaint: Analyzing Naipaul’s Views on Islam There r two ways of looking at any faith/religion:

1. Its original form (holy verses, messanger`s or prophet`s ideals, etc.)

2. What happened later on using some interpretations of that faith.

Based on #1, nothing can be more peacefule and toleratnt than perhaps all major religions. Based on #2, more human beings have been killed in the name of God than anything else.

The fact that Arabs tried to impose their cultural values on all conquered and converted regions/ppl is beyond any doubt. This is understandable too given how conquerors feel about themselves and the defeated ones. The defated/conquered ppl take for granted this inferiority omplex. For instance, Indian muslims were once dying for Turkish Caliphet, unaware of their own conditions.

So Naipal is correct in this analysis. But how right is singling out Islam in this? This is questionable.

Without any doubt, ppl believing in islam r the most backward and retrogressive ppl on earth. How much is it due to their faith, and the imperialist back grounds? To me, both. The remnant of this mentality can be seen in Musharraf`s proclamation the other day in which he said that God had goven him the respect, so ppl should accept him as the ruler by default.

....more later.

Jinnah’s Ustaadi RE: Subroto #5

``why is the red sea red?``

The answer to that is :

``I have studied in Karachi Grammar School

It is in an old locality

But only rich and priveleged can read there

So therefor assume that I am priveleged

There is gola ganda wala near KGS

He has red Gola ganda, which i like

He says it is red because the red sea is red.

``

simple, isnt it?

Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento (Reply #: 30 Ras Siddiqui)

``It was not my intent to scare anyone via this writing so please, before anyone busts a blood vessel please think of General Zia and calm down.``

It needs a child to understand that Gen Zia was dangerous for the ppl of Pakistan. It needs a mature and above-avg IQ person to understand that BB is dangerous to the paki ppl.

Pakis living in USA can kiss the ass of ppl like Gulbadin Hikatyar if he is respected by idiot Americans. And once they did!!!!

Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento it is irnoic that BB can fool only those Americans and Paki Americans who have not been to Pakistan during her rule. With foreign education, fair sex, and English accent, she has everything to make her more innocent than an angel.

Maulana Fzlur Rehman to Tahir ul Qadri, all molvis were in her lap during her rule. Her interior minister (called `the buther of Karachi`) was the main creator of Taliban. The Taliban policy of ISI and Pakistan army formed in her 2nd rule, with no opposition by PPP. When asked about the mistreatement of women t the ahands of Taliban, she used to calm down journalists by saying her govt was trying to win over Taliban to desist from that.

Now, she has the audacity to tell world, that she fought against the molvis. Balshphemey laws to hudood ordinace, every sexist and intolerant law was not revoked in her rule. She just amased wealth in foreign banks, and intends to collect more when the foreign aid has started coming in, thanks to the prostitution of pakistan by paki army.