In Search of the Moderate Muslim Urstruly (Reply #: 123 )

I have heard a lot of arguments about Barelvis, wahabis etc. being the sole malaise of muslims. People tend to trace the source of muslims discontent/double-mindness to the root of sect. Nothing can be farther from truth or atleast distractionary.

Muslims r from various backgrounds, even the ones having same sect. Social behavour is mostly influenced by the socio-economic conditions they live in. A moderate muslim in Pakistan tend to be religious exteremist (in social sense) if he lives with his family in Europe, when faced with completely different social conditions. A muslim from conservative family background in Pakistan may be very moderate and secular if financially independent. Most of the muslims living in cities like Lahore and Karachi dont even know which sect they belong to (except knowing that they r sunnis or shias). Nobody knows of any one particular `aalim` or ulema to follow. People follow religion on their own. What was the last time, any religious decree given by any ulema was followed on large scale? this may happen in Saudi Arab, where ulema r on the royal pay roll, but not in pakistan, where even if ulema r paid, no body would listen to them.

The sole problem with Pakistan is that narrow-minded religion of Saudi type was being introduced by pakistani govt and religious parties for many reasons:

1. Military regimentation of poor youth for Kashmir and Afghnaistan front

2. Making west fearful of religious transformation of muslim nuclear power, and hence its enegagement with pakistan (read more aid). After Soviet union, paki army was not making any money (narcotics smuggling ban in effect)

3. Tunneling the civilian anger (coming out of lack of control over civilian affairs, and growing anarchy) towards common foreign enemies (Russia, USA, India). Very good way to avoid pressure against army to strengthen army`s rule.

Irnonically, most os these objectives r shared by other muslim dictaor countries except that Israel is the target rather than India.

Given a free and democratic society, where the freedom of thinking is genuinely and indegeniously developed (rather than living in some foreign free society), religion becomes the sole propriety of a person, rather than of some selecetd few of God.

How can we get religion rid of the dictatorial rule of selected few (such as in Iran and Saudi Arab)? I think any society free for some dissent can take its course to a genuine freedom and secular society in the long run. The path that Iran (and Turkey a long time ago) leads to very stable democracy, i believe.

A Letter Home Send Mr. Burns to Taliban controlled madressa, and in one month he would be extoling Pakistan as the world` greatest democracy :)

A Time for Renewal Ylh (reply#429):

``Why are Indians so obsessed with Pakistan? No seriously why? Please leave us alone.. We dont like you, and we dont want to talk to you!``

It may be surprising for u, but i was born and bred in Pakistan. It perhaps never occured to u that some person in pakistan can criticise the army for its nafarious designes and vested interests. people like u think that survival of islam and pakistan is conditioned on survival of army. newsflash: u r wrong

A Time for Renewal Sadna:

``Just a question about these long pieces on Saudi Arabia and its corrupt regime in the US press. Why didnot they publish these scholarly authorative write ups before Sept 11 and save 6000 American lives? ``

Good point. And they r doing this just because Saudi Arab is hesitant to cooparte with USA on full-fledged unconditional support of strikes against Afghanistan, controlling royal family memebers from financung terrorirsts networks, etc.

Even the tone for Pakistani military regime and its past overt and now covert support for Talebans is not getting too much coverage, because they have shamefully pimped Paksitan.

Most of the time, CNN, MSNBC, ABC type media companies get the pulse, policy, leaked news from white house, FBI, etc anonymous sources. They r the ones fashioning their polices, if not dictating.

A Time for Renewal Stuka:

``Terey khandan, dharam aur desh kee ma bahen ek karney mey mujhe zyada effort nahi lageyga.``

For once u try to ``make the brothers and fathers one``. why always drag women into ur dispute? Or get ur dog into some mosque, and do whatever Ali`s dog was doing in ur mandar.

A Time for Renewal saminashah Reply #221

Samina

why do u post a message 3 times? Is it a hangover from `mujhey qabool hai`` time?

:)

A Time for Renewal I don`t know why ppl dont get this staright?

All religions sux, Islam does more.

Simple, isnt it?

Afghanistan Reflections Romair:

I always thought that ppl like `jay` r the worst voice of India, and I was yet to see the worst voice from Pakistan, my country.

And then i read some recent posts of urs.

Can a man be so blind to belive in Pakistani army`s absurd policies in the region, which has threatened the normal lives of so many ppl? Even the belief in God should be tested on some rationality, from time to time.

Now when the gneral musharaf is behaving like an internatioal prostitute (unwilling, though) in selling the national honor and sovereignity, which no arab country is ready to do, even saudi arab, ppl like u r still seeing the wisdom in army`s old policies. If now, they had to talk to former king of Afghanistan, why did they push jahil students of Fazlur rehman on Afghanistan? They perhaps thought, if punjabis can dominate pakitsan, why not pathans in Afhanistan. After all, they both r major ethnic communities in pak and afghanistan. It is just like how army intelligence came up with Punjabi-Pukhtoon ittehad in Karachi to defeat MQM. Now, this Punjabi-Pukhtoon ittehad was building up to defeat India. And they called it `strategic depth`. my foot!

As if an unwilling prostitute murmurs from time to time to beg for some good treatment, General musharaff is begging USA not to let northern alliance get Afghanistan. And he got a timely reprimand from former king`s camp to mind his own business. Can a general be so degraded? it is worst than 1971 defeat, as it came to an end. But this deefat wil haunt them as long as single Afghan is there across the border to remind Pakistani army of its kingmaker role in Afghanistan.

By serving the temporary US interests, the army would get something in money and plotical recognition from USA, but the dishonor that they brought to Pakistan for supporting and creating that jahil regime in Afghanistan will not go away. Their kashmir policy (of getting kashmiris trained in Afghanistan), and then denying their roles in insuregency is also in doldrums.

The only way that we can limit these absurd and militant role of army in Pakistan is to limit its size. its gonna hurt the punjabis the most, but they must accept their realistic role in Pakistan, as much as pathans need to understand their size in Afghanistan.

Lets put and end to this punjabi-pukhtoon ittehad in the south east asia.

Afghanistan Reflections Ras sahab says:

``But before all that happens, those responsible for the mass murder of September 11th need to face justice. ``

And who will be made responsible to throw Taliban type ppl on Afghanistan and kiling thousands of ppl? Pakistani general is still saying that Pushtoons r 60% of Afghanis. So his dream of imposing pathans on Afghans (as punjabis r on Pakistanis) is still continuing.

And this is not just todays`s policy. Ever since the soviet invasion, American arsenals r channeled to just pathans groups of ISI/CIA liking. In this endeavour, relations with Iran worsened. And in order to prepare more muscles, all sorts of religious schools cropped up in cities like Karachi. The ppl studying there have nothing to do with Karachi, but they r tehre to kill shias, courtesy Pakistani army and its intelligence agencies.

In This Together nasah (Reply#20)

Well, u raised important points. Now get ready for some surprises:

1. Benazie Bhutto was not more democratic than Nawaz Sharif. In fcat NS was reputed to be conflict resolver, and has the capability of keeping coalition for long time.

2. ``Muslim women leaders are more civilized less violent``

Taliban was the creation of General Babat (BB`s interior minister), and she used to support Taliban. 1996 operation against Karachi was the worst army operation after Baluchistan in mid 70s.

3. ``that it does benefit the country and community when little Muslim girls are allowed to go to school``

Yes. thre u r. But sometimes, it does not go to the benefit of the country, even if the woman is educated from Harvard and Oxford.

An Alternate View ali1 reply 25

``Ah... It is so difficult to explain the concepts of freedom, liberty and honor to Punjabis like you, SameerJB. ``

Lets exclude Punjabi sikhs in this shameless category.

An Alternate View What is the difference b/w Pakistanis and Afghans in terms of their representaion at the state level?

In a way there is no difference b/w Afghans and Pakis. Afghans have Talibans (ex-American-lovers) on their heads, and we have Paki Army on our heads. They can not get rid of Taliban type jahil and self-righteous ppl, and we can not get rid of Paki military type `jungjoo` and self-righteous ppl, who like to get involved in every conflict around the world without seeing their size.

But atleast there is a big differnce b/w Taliban and Paki Army. No one can in this world can say that Talibans hand over their declared guest to an arrogant and threatening army (This is Pathan culture, of which they r rightly proud of). But an attorney in USA (back in 95-96) has said that `Pakistanis can sell their mothers for few bucks` (in context of handing over Ramzi Yousuf to USA without any legal process).

No wonder why Pakistani Army is again pimping their mother land.

An Alternate View hi

Ahmed Rashid has spent 23 years of his journalistic career, writing on Afghanistan. His book on Taliban got published recetnly, incidently, before much was triggered by that Frakestein monster that our Pak military has produced. This milittary of ours works under the assumption that 60% ethinic majority has the

right to dominate the whole country. And they did

their best to apply this rule in Afghanistan in the last 2 decades. And they ended up pimping

their homeland and prestige for `few` (well, they

would even question that!!!) bucks. On CNN, a

shameless smile spread on the face of General

Musharraf, when Amanpur asked him about the `deal`

with USA.

Anyway, here is Ahmed Rashid`s address---an

eye-opener, i should say about this frankestein army:

I am deeply grateful to the Council of HRCP, its

elected representatives and members for awarding me this coveted prize. I would especially like to thank HRCP Chairman Afrasiab Khattak, General Secretary Hina Jilani, Director I.A. Rehman as well as Asma Jehangir and Dr Mobashir Hassan. I have no words to describe my feelings at the moment because this is for the first time, after more than 20 years in journalism, that a Pakistani organisation with such enormous credibility as the HRCP, has acknowledged my work, on covering Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia. No amount of international recognition can make up for being acknowledged in one`s own country, in one`s own home and by one`s own peers who I so deeply respect. I am

deeply moved and enormously grateful. HRCP`s work in increasing awareness about human and minority rights, poverty and political and press freedoms in Pakistan has no parallel.

I would also like to pay tribute to Nisar Osmani, a journalist of impeccable credibility who faced down three military regimes and who was a mentor and a friend to so many young, aspiring journalists like myself for decades. We have every reason to remember him here today as Pakistan goes through another period of turmoil and crisis. I would also like to pay tribute to the other two recipients of this prize Zamir Niazi and Razia Bhatti of Newsline who advanced

the cause of a free Press, investigative journalism and support for the democratic process. I would also like to thank my parents and my sisters who have been a constant source of inspiration and especially my wife Angie and our two children who have put up with my long absence from home.

I have covered the brutal, tragic conflict in

Afghanistan for the past 23 years. That conflict also took me to Central Asia for the first time in 1988. My persistence has been due to the enduring courage, warmth and formidable character of the freedom-loving Afghan people who today, even after all these years of

war, are still facing an unprecedented assault on

their independence, culture, history and faith in

Islam as a religion of peace and equal rights for men and women. But my persistence in sticking to this story for so long has also been my desire to journalistically write about and unveil the secretive decision making process of Pakistan`s Afghan policy over the past 23 years. During the past ten years Pakistan has been involved in the war in Afghanistan alongside one or another of the Afghan factions and most Pakistanis have been unaware of this involvement

and the implications it is having in the body politic

of our country. This is what I would briefly like to

speak to you about today.

Much as I respect and admire the Afghan people, as a

Pakistani I can only want, first and foremost, the

best for my own country. For too long we have all

stood as silent spectators and watched as Pakistan`s

political and economic development and progress is

sacrificed on the altar of a foreign policy wanting to

support one or other Afghan faction and committing

excesses of interference, which has only encouraged

other neighbouring states to step up their

interference in Afghanistan.

Pakistan played a heroic role in supporting the Afghan

people`s resistance to the invasion by Soviet troops

in 1979. At great risk to its own integrity Pakistan

hosted millions of Afghan refugees, allowed its soil

to be used for Western military supplies to the Afghan

Mujahideen and internationally advocated the

territorial independence and integrity of the Afghan

state. Why is it today that every ordinary Afghan you

speak to has not a kind word to say about Pakistan? In

fact since Kabul fell to the Mujahideen in 1992 our

policies have created a wave of criticism and even

hatred for Pakistan amongst many Afghans. The majority

of Afghans blame us for being the single biggest

contributor to the continuing war in their homeland.

Today we stand isolated in the community of nations

due to our Afghan policy. We stand isolated in the

region as all our neighbours condemn our policies,

while they send munitions to opposing factions in

Afghanistan.

Let us not beat about the bush here. For the past ten

years successive elected and non-elected governments

in Islamabad have poured munitions and logistic-

backing in support of first one and then another

Afghan faction. Quite separately during the past seven

years, between 50-60,000 young Pakistani militants

have gone to fight in Afghanistan. Many have died

there never to return, many have participated in the

worst ethnic and sectarian massacres that have taken

place in Afghanistan`s history. Pakistani interference

has contributed to the enormous human suffering in

Afghanistan.

Pakistani munitions have helped destroy Afghan cities

and villages and given the justification for other

neighbouring countries to do the same. I ask you here

today, with such policies have we embraced the Afghan

people or have we created more hatred for ourselves

and tension in the region. As Afghanistan`s largest

neighbour, should Pakistan have a policy and a role as

a peace maker by treating all Afghan ethnic groups

equally or should we continue to take sides in their

war?

Today Afghanistan is utterly destroyed, there is no

functioning state, the humanitarian crisis there is

the gravest in the world, the country is the center

for the export of Islamic extremism across the region,

terrorism, heroin and weapons. The reason is not the

fault of the poor Afghan people, but the ambitions of

a handful of ambitious warlords and the continued

interference of outside powers who fuel this war. I

can safely tell you, cut the supplies of military

equipment to all sides and the war machines will dry

up within months.

What has been the result of these policies for

Pakistan`s internal dynamics. In the 1980s we suffered

from the spread of what was then called ``the

Kalashnikov culture``. Today I do not need to tell you

that the situation is much worse. For the past ten

years every single ministry in Islamabad, every single

domestic policy programme, even our desperately needed

economic revival are partially being held hostage by

our Afghan policy - whether it is trying to encourage

foreign investment, dealing with the sectarian issue,

promoting modern educational programmes or ending our

diplomatic isolation. As citizens don`t we have a

right to know how much of our money is being spent in

Afghanistan, ntervening in a useless war? We should

also remember that the much talked about process of

the ``Talibanisation of Pakistan`` is not purely an

Afghan phenomena. This process started in Pakistan

where some Afghans attending religious schools imbibed

an interpretation of Islam that was against the ethos

of our founding fathers. I have shown in my book how

we exported this process to Afghanistan and now it is

being re-exported back to us. We should not blame the

Afghans for this, we should blame ourselves and

correct our mistakes.

Why are we pursuing such policies? We are told that we

need a friendly regime in Kabul so that we can acquire

``strategic death,`` counter India in the region,

promote Islam — but what kind of Islam I ask you–and

that the whole world is wrong by crtiticising us and

we alone are right. I have consistently argued that

stability, progress and self-respect in Pakistan

cannot come from pursuing the chimera of strategic

depth in foreign fields. That is first built at home

with modern, progressive policies and a foreign policy

aimed at making friends and creating new markets. We

need peace in our borders, democracy, education, jobs

and a rock solid economy to give our people faith in

the country. In the 1965 war against India, Iran

provided us true strategic depth by allowing our war

planes and ships to use their ports and airbases, but

today Iran is bitterly antagonistic to Pakistan

because of our Afghan policy. Today, the Central Asian

Republics are busy extraditing all Pakistanis, be they

businessmen, traders or students accusing them,

unjustifiably in most cases - of promoting radical

Islam and unrest in their countries. India has now

fully jumped into the Afghan fray by providing

military equipment to an opposing Afghan faction. I

ask you, is this the way to make friends or create new

export markets for our goods or tame the dangers of

sectarianism and religious extremism or promote

democracy?

How can a country like Pakistan faced with such

monumental economic, ethnic, sectarian and political

problems justify its policy of involvement in the war

next door? This has only been possible because of the

total silence and acquiescence of Pakistan`s

politicians, the partial silence from civil society

and the media and the insistence of the military in

maintaining the status quo while refusing to consider

policy alternatives. These are the kind of issues I

have been raising for the past ten years. What is

desperately needed today is courage by all Pakistanis

to question where these policies are taking us and to

demand information and debate of what they mean for us

and the future of our children.

I would like to end now, but not before offering an

apology. In my personal and humble capacity I would

like to apologise to the brave Afghan people for the

consequences of Pakistan`s recent policies in

Afghanistan. I would like to unconditionally apologise

for the deaths of countless Afghans, which have been

caused by Pakistani interference. I would like to

apologise for the part that we have played in the

destruction of your cities, your culture, your

traditions and your freedom to choose your own

government. As a small tribute to the Afghan people I

would like to return this award of Rupees 100,000 to

the HRCP, with the stipulation that they use it for

the benefit of Afghanistan`s suffering women and

children. This award is named the courage in

journalism award.

Let me assure you that I am not in particular

courageous. I have just tried to do my job while

covering a war, the end of which I consider as a vital

to Pakistan`s stability, progress and self-respect in

the international community. I hope you and other

Pakistanis, in particular the silent politicians, have

the courage to speak out so that we make friends not

enemies beyond our borders and build a truly stable,

democratic and progressive homeland

Thank you for your patience.

In This Together As Bill Maher of `Politically incorrect` says the other day, if the next terrorist attack is made on USA, 95% chance is that they would be muslims. Coming this from a secular person, it should be reflective of how Americans feel about that. And u can not blame them for that. How all kashmiri muslims r treated in India? How Bengalis r treated in Karachi, Pakistan? Not all of them r terrorists or theives, but this is what we all ppl do as a form of defensive mechanism----Generalization. Don`t tell me u never indulge in it. We do generalization because wee can not afford to know every person personally. When it comes to personal relationships, yes, we do away with generalization, and come to know the Bengali, jew, chinese, hindu, sikh, etc in very neutral way. But this attitude is not possible at al the times.

This is one sorry refelection on the human psychology. but it is true.

If Sep 11 attack has happened in India, Pakistan or any other Arab country, I would see what would they do to the `usual suspects`. Compared with that, what is happening in USA is nothing. Atleast u have the legal recourse to sue the person/airline for racism. In the above-mentioned countries, u can not even do that.

Caught In Between News report:

Pakistani army has reportedly agreed to handover its Baluchistan airport to US forces.

This is one reason why Americans like to support dictatorship in all troubled countries.

Caught In Between

In DAWN

http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/16:

``Government puts a price on cooperation with US over terror attacks: ISLAMABAD, Sept 16: Government is planning to extract maximum financial benefit from its decision to extend its full support to a US-led campaign against international terrorism. Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz said he was confident that the Islamabad government`s backing for a campaign which could involve military action against neighbouring Afghanistan would have economic benefits. (AFP) (Posted @ 23:50 PST) ``

Another Pakistani selling his mother for few bucks!! This time the whole army leadership is selling their mothers.