Good-Riddance re: Akash # 52

This is what I had written in my earlier post:

Ramcharitmanas is quite different from Valmiki`s Ramayana. And so are the thousand year old translations of the Ramayana into Telugu and other South Indian languages. Many inconsistencies in all of them. What is important is how they`ve shaped or influenced their societies. I will not deny that there are many inspiring stories in the Ramayana inspite of its racist and sexist overtones. (The same goes for the Mahabharata inspite of its blatant caste discrimination in the case of Ekalavya and Karna). The story of Sabari, the low caste hermit in the Ramayana; and Krishna`s friendship with his poor pundit classmate are my personal favourites. The sad part is, Hindus believe that the events in their`` holy texts ``actually happened. Which is impossible if you take the religious texts at their word. It is well know that time is divided into Yugas (Treta, Dwapara, Kali etc) and each in turn runs into dozens of thousands of years. Either Hindus have been freakishly living on this planet far too longer than others or the texts are wrong. I wish the puranas and other constituents of the Hindu`` religious texts ``are appreciated by Indians (all Indians, much like Greeks and Italians today) for whatever redeeming value they have and not be treated as historical grounds for pulling down the religious places of minorities. And also call a spade, a spade. But I guess it is a question of conscience and is thus personal. But the operative word there is conscience.



I guess that sums up my opinion.

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance
re: Harpreet # 51

Fateh Fateh Waheguru...long time...we lost touch after a while, hai na?...good to hear from you.

``I was in India in March and met some Kabuliwallah Sikhs at Harimandir Sahib, they had escaped through Pakistan around the time the taleban started making them wear yellow labels. They looked more Afghan than Punjabi though, brown hair and the jackets and coats they were wearing, goats hide and the like. They said their families had been there from before partition.``

Yeah, probably settled there MUCH before partition...there are stories in the Janamsakhis of how Sikhs from as far as Bukhara coming and paying homage to the Gurus...and many famous Sikhs were from Kabul and Afghanistan...there is this one story of how a Sikh from Kabul gave a magnificent canopy/tent to the tenth Patshah, which rivalled in splendour to that of Aurangzeb himself...I too went to Punjab recently... in May....man, was it hot....but got to go to Fatehgarh and Harmandir Sahib...and yes, I thought one does get to see the whole spectrum of humanity in Amritsar...brown, white, black you name it...I did meet one Afghani Sikh when I went to Nankana Sahib, but his family had by then settled down in Lahore...he said he is a cloth merchant there...with a brother in Delhi...and oh there is a fascinating story associated with a gurudwara called Amb Sahib in Chandigarh...a few furlongs from Mohali stadium...if my memory serves me right, every year, during the off season, when it would be as difficult to find mangoes as a pond in the middle of the Sahara, the tree planted at Amb Sahib in what is now Chandigarh, by Guru Hargobind I think, gives a solitary mango...my host explained to me that it is a promise, that the Guru made to one of his Sikhs.

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: dost-mittar # 50

``He was definitely sensitive and perceptive but not from a low-cast. He belonged to the highly successful `kaystha` caste. Like everywhere else, the reform against opression of caste-system was led not be the oppressed but by some men with conscience from among the opressors. The opressed usually lead revolts, not reforms.``

I agree with you...I never meant to imply that he was a low-caste in my post...further reason for him being sensitive and perceptive, coming from where he did come from...but he did go through a period of acute poverty after his father died...I remember reading about it in 7th grade Hindi in Hyderabad in school...I meant to say in my earlier post that, his poverty maybe enabled him to better appreciate the misery of the underprivileged...and you are right once again, about many reformers coming from the privileged classes...Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Gandhi etc to name a few...but I think reform doesn`t do much for the self-confidence or the peace of mind of the oppressed...revolution does...and the best example of that, at least one I can think of, was the teaching of the Sikh Gurus.

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: sadna # 54

sorry...just saw the post, after I posted #55...will try to reply once I reach Michigan

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: sadna # 48


``To be honest, I donot understand your arguments which are self-contradictory``

Ummm..Grrr...Hurrrrrmph...ab kya bataaoon...have loads of last minute packing to do before I move in back for my fall sem...maybe we can continue this conversation some other time.

I`ve seen the map of Aryavarta many times...in books, I borrowed from the Rutgers library...but, umm, I found a reference in hinduismtoday.com of all places:

The varna system expanded from the Saraswati-Yamuna area and got firmly established in the whole of Aryavarta (Kashmir to Vidarbha, Sindh to Bihar). It counted as a sign of superior culture setting the arya, civilized, heartland apart from the surrounding mleccha, barbaric, lands. In Bengal and the South, the system was reduced to a distinction between brahmins and shudras.

The link to the article:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1994/9/1994-9-12.html#Caste,%20Prof.%20%20Elst

Considering, that it is a site meant to show Hinduism in good light, by and large, and even for them to admit what Aryavarta stood for, I think it is good proof.

I did go to Elephanta Caves...as a child...my first boat ride on the sea...yes, I do remember the beautiful sculpture, especially that of Ardh Nareshwara...that is the one that has really stuck in my mind...many of the rock hewn statues were disfigured...I wonder which misguided zealot claims the credit for it

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: fawad79

Yeah, Yasser`s my mate...nice to hear from you too...my email is veerbhagat@hotmail.com...I`m sorry but mind repeating your question?

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance Oh and as for the Veera Shaiva bit, I think people should be allowed to do what they want, in terms of their faith. There is no central authority in Hinduism (that might change if the Hindutvavaadis have their way) that decrees what is right and what is wrong. Basavanna, the Guru of the Veera Shaivas, was an extremely enlightened man for his time, and launched what I consider one of the greatest reform movements of his age...

``Going against the way of the times, the Lingayats rejected Vedic authority, caste hierarchy, the system of four ashramas, a multiplicity of Gods, animal sacrifice, karmic bondage, the existence of inner worlds, duality of God and soul``...


so if the Veera Shaivas feel that their beliefs or faith is in danger for whatever reason, then they have the right to defend themselves constitutionally. And if it means, reinventing mythologies, so what?...Its not like they are concrete anyway...I mean, they are myths....if their conscience is clear and they are not hurting anybody, then its all good, hai na?...I mean when I was in Bangalore and fractured my wrist in an accident, I went to a Catholic Hospital. For whatever reason, the patient registration form asked about my religion. I put it down as Sikh and much to my chagrin, they cut it out and wrote `Hindu` on top of it...not that I hate Hindus or anything, but I dont wanna be called something I am not...maybe the Veera Shaivas feel the same way

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance Ok, first of all, my apologies to Godot...my past few posts might seem irrelevant to your write up...but I think what I have been trying to say is somehow related to Jhuria and his struggle with the society he happened to be in...Premchand must have been an extraordinarily sensitive and perceptive man...if he wasn`t so, he would not have been able to pen down Nijat...maybe it was the poverty and travails he had to go through as a young man that enabled him to empathize with the downtrodden...by the way, I liked your `On Hate` contributed to Chowk earlier, which I have only just read...and I absolutely love your resolution.

re: Sadna

I think we agree more than disagree...but our disagreements seem to be very prickly

``I think your equivalence asura==dark-skinned S.Indian, gods == fairskinned N.Indian is plain wrong.``

I agree...but I didn`t intend it as such and maybe you`ve misunderstood me...I only referred to the skin complexion of the authors of the puranas to try to say that they were of a different stock/race than the people of the South and so might be chauvinistic when writing about others...my skin is lighter than most Indians, but that doesn`t make me a god and because I am an Andhra, I definitely would not call myself an Asura :)...colour of the skin is not an issue


``And Vishnu, Ram and Krishna were all described as dark skinned just like Shiva and as far as I know, Ravana was a brahmin(son of a rishi) and fairskinned.``


Ravana might have been a Brahmin...aren`t there Brahmins in South India?...He might`ve been fairskinned too...though I do not know of anybody (as yet) claiming to have actually seen him (in every Chandamama book I can think of, he is shown as being dark and with cute little tusks coming out of the corners of his mouth)...if I`m not mistaken sage Agastya is usually talked of as South Indian too...I can`t remember who the Gurudev of the Asuras was, but I think he too was a Brahmin. Vishnu (and by way of corollary, Ram and Krishna) might`ve been dark (something fishy about that Parasurama chap), but the point is, the Devas ran to him and not Shiva whenever they comitted doo doo, which was, quite often...inspite of this, Indra and his gang being Aryan deities, get the benefit of the doubt for their numerous wrongs, but not so in the case of the Asuras who just happen to be live mostly to the South of the Vindhyas...Ravana might have been the son of a Brahmin, but the tale sung by the rishis to Vishnu was that he was an Asura disturbing their yagnas (He is also shown as the leader of the Asuras) and the Devas were just simply sh!t scared of his power....and please if Ravana is an Asura for his arrogance, what about the arrogance, jealousy, lust, hatred etc of Indra and his minions?...shouldn`t they too have been given `moksha`?...but surprisingly, their wrongs are forgiven and whats more, defended in the puranas.

``Neither have I ever come across `S.Indians` as opposed to `N.Indians` as separate entities in any mythology``

The geographical entity of Aryavrata usually ends at the Vindhyas...all land to the south of the Vindhyas is considered wild and unchartered and inhabited by dangerous Rakshasas and Vanaras (Vaali was dangerous to Ram, so he was eliminated)

By the way, nobody explains as to why Ram`s army in his colossal fight against Ravana is depicted as that of monkeys and beasts...no disrespect to monkeys and all, but I don`t see Bush calling Musharraf a monkey, at least not in public

``According to tradition narrated even in the Ramayana, Ravana was an excellent king, an accomplished scholar and musician(with the composition of Sanskrit hymns to Shiva sung even today ascribed to his authorship while Ram is never mentioned for his scholarship or artistic accomplishments) Ravana`s wife Mandodari was supposed to be virtuous and one of the world`s five most beautiful women. Ravana
s subjects(and numerous wives) were described as happy and prosperous.``

As a descendant of ``Asuras``, I`ll drink to that :)...and Mandodari is one of the Satis too, not to mention her invention of Chaturanga... she is the daughter of the King of the nether world, worshippers of Hari/Vishnu and fiercely anti-Asura...but she falls in love with Ravana and elopes with him. And my point precisely about Ravana with regards to his rule over his people. He was loved, but had to be eliminated (like Vaali, who too was loved) because he was too powerful. Yes,he does kidnap a woman against her wish, but doesn`t Indra trick a rishi`s wife into sleeping with him?...and instead of Indra getting the cane, the woman gets cursed, turning into a stone !!!



But after all, this is only mythology. And not a precise one at that. Ramcharitmanas is quite different from Valmiki`s Ramayana. And so are the thousand year old translations of the Ramayana into Telugu and other South Indian languages. Many inconsistencies in all of them. What is important is how they`ve shaped or influenced their societies. I will not deny that there are many inspiring stories in the Ramayana inspite of its racist and sexist overtones. (The same goes for the Mahabharata inspite of its blatant caste discrimination in the case of Ekalavya and Karna). The story of Sabari, the low caste hermit in the Ramayana; and Krishna`s friendship with his poor pundit classmate are my personal favourites. The sad part is, Hindus believe that the events in their mythology actually happened. Which is impossible if you take the religious texts at their word. It is well know that time is divided into Yugas (Treta, Dwapara, Kali etc) and each in turn runs into dozens of thousands of years. Either Hindus have been freakishly living on this planet far too longer than others or the texts are wrong. I wish the puranas and other constituents of the Hindu mythology are appreciated by Indians (all Indians, much like Greeks and Italians today) for whatever redeeming value they have and not be treated as historical grounds for pulling down the religious places of minorities. And also call a spade, a spade. But I guess it is a question of conscience and is thus personal. But the operative word there is conscience.

Inspite of all that sadna, I must admit that Rama is considered a deity and loved by people in the South, even in Rayalseema :)...They do consider him chikna and a sissy vis-a-vis Ravana but what the heck...I was born to my parents when my father was practicing in this area called Vonti Mitta, the size of a mandal in Rayala Seema...the only doctor the poverty stricken people of the region could afford to go to (he didn`t charge them for consultation)...inspite of the extreme underdevelopment and arid nature of the region, there exists a magnificent temple in the middle of the place...This place is HUGE and it is a wonder that hardly anybody knows about it outside of the region...I mean, it has the works, columns of pillars running all around the temple, humongous bells on both sides of the entrance, gates on all four sides and all of it made of solid granite. I think it is a symbol of the region`s power and prosperity of the time when the Rayas ruled much of South India, unlike today when the region is given stepmotherly treatment by the state govt. And I think Pankaj will be glad to know that it is dedicated to Ram and his consort. It is also the temple where my parents got married.

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: sadna # 37

Not to mention various shrines of quite significant importance to Hindus in the north like Somnath, Amarnath etc...bhang drinking usually associated with Siva (I`ve never seen it done in the south among adults, though its now a fad among college students in Bangalore)...the cult of Mata (usually related to Siva) in the north, even in Punjab...you are absolutely right and I knew my theory was full of loopholes...inspite of all this, it has to be said or maybe its just my perception that there is a significant bias against Southeners in the puranas...them being portrayed as meat eating and intoxicant consuming (despite the popular notion that South Indians are by and large vegetarians, I think that on average, Southeners eat more meat than Northerners...at least in Andhra and Kerala...you just have to look at the menu in an Andhra restaurant...not that meat eating is incredibly healthy or that the animals are too thrilled about it) Rakshasas (here let me say that in the past too Southeners probably ate meat...but in juxtaposition to the vegetarian Brahmins and Amrit drinking Devas, they are depicted as Rakshasas and barbaric for consuming meat and getting wasted)...maybe it is for this reason that Ravana, though he dies in the end and is considered evil and Ram is worshipped as a deity in the South, still Ravana is depicted (at least this is the case in the Rayalseema region of Andhra where my family is from) as macho, handsome and noble...and Ram is depicted as a wimp (for sending his wife to live in exile) and a coward (for killing Vaali through treachery)...funny also isn`t it that brave soldiers who gave their all for Rama`s cause are depicted as monkeys, bears, wild beasts literally and slaves figuratively...of course it is just mythology, and I treat it as such...but just maybe it is an insight into the relations between North and South India in the past and maybe even to some extent today.

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: Dost-Mittar # 33

Sat Sri Akal and Thanx. I`ve been busy with studies and have not been able to participate on chowk more actively. Inshallah, will do more in future.

I have this `not necessarily concrete by any means` theory that Siva is widely popular and is worshipped coloquially as Eswar (Eswarudu or other derivatives) especially in the Veera Shaiva community of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu because throughout Hindu mythology Siva is seen as defending the interests of the asuras, though they end on the losing side eventually. And Asuras in puranas written by light skinned Brahmins who I presume were North Indians, usually meant non-Aryan civilizations in the south. Add to this his representation as a wild god, living in the mountains, protector of animals, rubbing ash over his body etc. imagery and it gives one a feeling that in Hindu mythology though Siva is important, he is somewhat of a brute and of more ancient and uncivilized origin. Maslan, though he is one of the trinity, because of his affiliation with Asuras/Southern peoples, the poor chap gets bad pr in terms of body odour and such. And the very fact that Southeners refer to Siva as Eswar (One God in Sanskrit)maybe underlines the argument that to them, he is The one God...one that would be argued pretty strongly by the Veera Shaivas of Karnataka and followers of Siva and his family in Tamil Nadu. Just musing...I`m sure one will find many flaws in it

regards

Kabuli

Good-Riddance re: dost mittar # 7

``minor point: Ishwar is the Hindu equivalent of Allah/God and not the name of any Hindu god``

True, but in South India, in Telugu at least, Ishwar generally denotes Siva

regards

Kabuli

Common Things reminded me of Mumtaz from Moth Smoke...well written piece

regards

Kabuli

Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins? Mr. Siddiqui

Agree with you 101%

Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I re: tahmed321

Is gripe water the same as Woodwards?

Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I hey anNy

I checked out chowk after a long time and am happy I did...I won`t bore you to your next pheeka paani with the `I`m so shocked` and all that crap...thats for the oldies...like the way you write...I was in your city recently...the airport is about the only decent thing I saw in the place...just kidding...the b@st@rds didn`t let me go out of the airport premises...and whats with the ugly McDonalds outside eh?...anyways, I recently bought `Beggar of Jerusalem` by Elie Wiesel (sp?) for 50 bucks...eat your heart out...advantages of being in India, hehehe...get well soon and make our customs officers rich by visiting your folks this side ( which is way better :) ) of the border

Kabuli

Tilak and Gokhale like I said before, liked it...black or white history should be purged...the black past of the Congress, both Hindu and Muslim must be exposed to the world...these so called `nationalist` muslims stayed in India not for India but for their religion...their agenda needs to be exposed...the Congress parroting bandar babus need to be exposed...directly or indirectly you are doing a service to India...thanx

Kabuli