16% UK Muslims Stand by London Bombers How does chowk print this tripe on the front page?...if it wasn`t for the media the Godhra riots would not have received the worldwide attention that it did...remember the guy pleading for his life with folded hands?...I remember seeing the pic in quite a few Indian newspapers...come on lady, be a little objective...and you are supposed to be a journalist?...agreed the govt. in Gujarat and in India then and now is scum...but I think the media in India other than the tabloid types that you mention are quite responsible...the `most and second most read newspapers` means didly...if that were the case, tabloids would be the most widely read newspapers around the world...Hindu and the Indian Express are India`s best newspapers...your argument is similar to Ayaz Amir`s who constantly is crying foul over Hindustan Times headlines...yes, Hindustan frikking Times....that piece of govt. ass wipe...same goes for Times of India...maybe the author should try reading Hindu and its fortnightly The Frontier more often

Star, Crescent, Cross You mention the great love of Israelis for India...other than the fascination of the youth for India, another reason might be that India is the only country in the world where the Jews were not persecuted for their beliefs in any form...they might have been `tolerated` in other countries, but India was the only country where they could lead their lives with full freedom just like any other man or woman...they could build their synagogues as high as they wanted and sing as loudly as they wanted...many Jewish museums state this and it is something Indians can be quite proud of...the museum of Natural History in New York has a plaque which states this also...India provided a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora beginning from the sack of Jerusalem 2000 years ago till a few centuries ago when jews from Iraq, Afghanistan etc came and settled in India...I wish India and Israel cooperated more in the fields of irrigation technology and use their knowledge and expertise in arid regions of India such as Telangana and Rajasthan...would love to go there myself and look into this but want to visit Iran first...Iran has this rule that anyone who visits Israel for whatever reason is ineligible to visit Iran...happily Israel has no such hangups...so first Iran, then Israel inshallah in the next couple of years...you really are lucky in that your work takes you to interesting and historical lands...regards

Kabuli

Star, Crescent, Cross great travelogue Deepak...you are indeed very lucky...I might be wrong, but isn`t the wailing wall a remnant of Solomon`s temple?...cheers

Kabuli

Ayaan Ali Hirsi and the Big Bad Wolf what a letdown from Bina Shah...everything I feel has already been said by hamidm...hamidm for president, Pakistan`s or USA`s

Jolly Bhai great read man...didn`t want it to end...enjoyed it very much except for Jolly bhai`s misfortune of course....but on the minus side, a few too many big words...you could`ve used simpler synonyms...btw, which uni in Michigan did u attend?...regards

Kabuli

Gods of War Dear Chauhan Bhai,

welcome back...how was your trip?...hope it was as great as mine to Istanbul a couple of weeks back...wanted to meet you in person, but read on Chowk that you`d be away...but want to tell you that you are one of the 12 million or so of the most lucky people on this planet...Istanbul is the most beautiful and enchanting city I`ve ever seen...and the people...Istanbollu have to be the most kind, honorable, hospitable, beautiful, and humane people on this earth...the moment I landed back in Houston, I pined and longed for Istanbul again not in the least due to the boorish behavior of good old Houstonians.

as much as I admire your city and your opinions and beliefs Salim bhai, I have to disagree with you on the whole reunification thing. For one, most Pakistanis do not seem to want it (inshallah they`ll keep thinking that way) and two, I do not see how non-Muslims in India will benefit from it. Whatever they`ve lost in Pakistan, there is no going back to it. They`ve been completely erased from the fabric and consciousness of what is today Pakistan. not in the literal sense because of Sheikhupura, Hasan Abdal etc, but definitely from a practical point of view. Even if non-Muslims from India could go back to Pakistan, they would always be conscious of their claustrophobic minority status. Thus, try to think from a non-Muslim Indian point of view and see what value reunification would add to India. Yes, there are a few psychos within the RSS and VHP, who want reunification, but they want it more out of ego than anything else. No sane rational thinking non-Muslim Indian would want reunification if they look at the cost-benefits. I`m not saying that all Muslim Indians would want reunification. Many of them might not, but also many of them might because they can thus increase their numbers in the population and thus get a larger share of a democratic country`s resources. As you have said, some problems like water sharing, Kashmir etc can be resolved, but I think these will be resolved one way or the other anyway, because of India`s bargaining power in the years to come. Indians can even be magnanimous on these issues because I think they will have more to gain in terms of business opportunities in countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc. I advocate peaceful and brotherly relations between Pakistan and India, but no reunification please. Pakistan would not want India`s problems and India sure as hell doesn`t need Pakistan`s problems. The last think India needs at this stage in its development is few of its provinces clamoring for Sharia and Islamic banking.

Having said all that, I`ve been thinking of another unification plan. Considering that Turkey and India share so many values such as democracy, secularism, Bollywood and so much history going back a thousand years, not to mention shakkerpare, halva, language etc, why not think about somehow uniting Turkey and India? Now there is a much more attractive proposition. What say?...Te Sekker and regards,

Kabuli

The Birdman of India Dear Dr. Gill,

thanks for writing about the birdman of India...as a kid I used to think that he was the ugliest man ever and was quite scared of his picture...but much later read his autobiography and discovered that he and I shared a passion for motorcycles...his autbiography has quite a few pics of his motorcycle exploits, one of which I believe was travelling on his motorcycle from India to England...so u see, he beat Che both in terms of distance and for conceiving the idea before...while an Islam observant man, he had no patience or understanding for other religions as evindenced by his thoughts on Buddhist and Hindu practices during his survey of the birds in Nepal and Tibet...I found it odd that after having lived and grown up in India, he did not have the heart to understand the native faiths...regards

Kabuli

Celebrating the Khalsa re: Gangu various

I will give a reply to your paranoid babble shortly...have been busy with classes today...thing that makes me hesitate in interacting with you is that you come across as a consummate liar and a fudger of history and I have no interest in humoring RSS pracharaks...but hey even after taking the Giani exam ( is it the same place where Giani Zail Singh went to?) you still have no concept of the most basic Sikh philosophy, maybe you just ain`t the smartest cookie and your misinterpretation of simple but profound Sikh principles is the result of your thick skull...so I will humor you once more...be with you shortly

Celebrating the Khalsa ``I believe that Halal is forbidden because of the ritualistic nature of the killing, not because it is or isn`t cruel. After all, no animal has lived to compare Jhatka versus Halal slaughter. :)``

LOL...I guess you are right my friend...when I first went to Amritsar, I wanted to taste the famous non-veg food of the shahi gharanas of Punjab only to be disappointed as the vicinity around Harmandar Sahib is strictly vegetarian.

your comment about Sikhs being manipulated by both Hindus and Muslims, I think you are right on the money. Hindu nationalists champion the cause of Sikhs not because of their understanding or love of Sikh philosophy but rather what they perceive as Sikhism`s historical enemity with Muslims. It is kind of like the bible belt Christians championing the cause of Israel. There is no love lost between these conservative Christians and Jews. However they support the Jewish homeland of Israel because according to their scripture this will herald the second coming of Christ. It is for their own selfish reasons that they support Israel.

Hindu fundoos too have no real love for Sikhism or Sikhs. This was evident after partition where the Hindus of Punjab carved out a separate state for themselves in the form of Haryana leading to the problems that were to haunt Punjab later. That the Sikhs fought against the Mughal govt. of the past is a fact. Hindu fundoos seem to see this as evidence that Sikhs are against Muslims. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is this history combined with their own blind hatred of Muslims which leads them to identify with the history of the Sikhs. They are completely ignorant about Sikh history and the circumstances that led Sikhs to fight against Mughals. When confronted with the facts like it was a Muslim pir called Mian Mir who laid the foundation of Harmandar Sahib, that his descendants died while fighting in the cause of the Guru etc, these Hindu fundoos turn around and call Sikhs Khalistanis. As long as a Sikh is a rabid Muslim hater he is a brave son of the soil, but the instant he portrays a balanced version of history, he becomes a Khalistani.

On the other side of the coin, fundoo Pakistanis are now great champions of Sikhism, not because they acknowledge the greatness of the Gurus and their philosophy, but because they seem to think that all Sikhs are Khalistani supporters and thus de facto Hindu bashers. These ignoramuses still publish articles in Pakistani media where they portray the period of Sikh rule as an extremely unberable time for the Muslims. I read a sign outside Badshahi Mosque in Lahore which said that Ranjit Singh turned the mosque into a stable. How could he do such a thing when his own Vazir was a Muslim and his army had huge Muslim component. Were these Muslims eunuchs who wouldn`t protest the desecration of their mosque? There were enough militarized Muslim tribes in Punjab who could have easily overwhelmed the Sikh state if their living conditions were that unbearable. But it did not happen. For the first time they had a Punjabi sovereign who stood for Punjabis irrespective of their religion. It is a less known fact that almost all of Ranjit Singh`s canon operators were Muslims. That the Pakistani state has sought to brain wash its masses with anti-Sikh propaganda has been well documented on chowk as well as other forum. But today it acts as if Pakistan was created to safeguard the rights of Sikhs!!! That the Pakistan Gurudwara Prabandak Committee is headed by ISI generals is a dead giveway of Pakistan`s real intentions of using Sikhs to somehow weaken India.

Both these Hindu and Muslim fundoos are living in an idiot`s paradise. Like you said, Sikhs have been failed by their leaders on numerable occassions before and after independence, but the Sikh people as a whole have managed to survive their tragedies and come out stronger. I have to date not seen a single Sikh beggar. Sorry for the long post yaar. Just wanted to get this off my chest. Cheers

Ahmadis – The Forgotten People re: jang # 28

``Thank you Parshuram for a well-written piece. Growing up in india, we dont know about Ahmedis enough..i knew shia, sunni, memon-bohri and khoja-ismilies. Are there any in India and how are they doing?``

There are Ahmedis in India. Qadian is in East Punjab and Pakistani Ahmedis make a pilgrimage there. The caretakers there are most likely permanent residents in India. There is a bungalow with a sign of Ahmediyya Majlis or something like that in English and Urdu near Lal Bagh in Bangalore. However I never saw much activity there.

On another note a significant minority of black converts in the US are Ahmedis, on account of fervent prosetelyzing of Ahmedis, another facet of Ahmedis that bites Wahabis in the a$$

Celebrating the Khalsa re: pmishra2 # 29

try addall.com. There are quite a few options if you type Granth unde title. An easy way to be introduced to Sikh philosophy would be Sacred Nitnem by Harbans Singh Doabia and Sikhism: A Comparative Study of its Theology and Mysticism by Daljeet Singh. Cheers

Celebrating the Khalsa Simran,

I find it amusing that both mannyd and discoverer, poles apart, seem to covet Sikhs and Sikhism within their milieu. Both are like different sides of the same coin. Maybe Sikhs should take it as a compliment :)

Celebrating the Khalsa re: jang

It is true that Guru Gobind Singh forbade halal meat. But it is not because it is muslim meat but because the halal manner of killing the animal is extremely cruel. It takes many minutes for the animal to bleed to death. It is an excruciating way to die. Sikhs eat jhatka meat where the animal is killed in one swift blow. Not that it makes much difference to most Sikhs because Sikhs in the countryside consume very little meat. They eat mostly vegetarian fare with meat restricted to weddings and such. That is why I find it amusing when tandoori chicken is associated with Sikhs in India because tandoori style of cooking itself came from the Persians and Turks.

Celebrating the Khalsa re: mannyd various


`` I do not think any Sikh has even tried to translate the Granth into other Indian languages.``

I remember reading a hindi version and I`ve heard that Guru Nanak Dev University in Chennai has translated the Granth Sahib into Tamil. There might be others.

``Simran: Dasm Granth is not a part of Granth Sahib? OK, which portion of it was written by the Dasam Guru in your opinion? Is Chandi di Var a fabrication too?``

Like Simran said, there is controversy over the authorship of the Dasam Granth. Either sections or the whole of the Dasam Granth have been written by what many Sikhs consider to be an impostor. Even if parts of the Dasam Granth was written by the Dasvi Padshah, it is not a part of the Guru Granth Sahib. The Sikhs do not honor or respect it as the eleventh Guru. This on the orders of the 10th Guru himself. In fact not a single verse in the Guru Granth Sahib has been authored by Gobind Singh. All the verses are authored by either the 9 Gurus before him or various sants and fakirs such as Kabir, baba Farid etc. The first Sikh holy book, the Adi Granth compiled by Guru Arjan, was lost before the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur. Guru Gobind Singh compiled the Adi Granth and other verses after Guru Arjan, into the Guru Granth Sahib. Some say he did the compilation purely out of memory. I am slightly skeptical about this. He probably had the help of elders such as Baba Budha Singh.

`` Do they and how does that affect Sikhs? The golden temple was and is still called HariMandir, temple of Hari. Maybe Hari was the chief Mistri, who built it and not Vishnu, the Hindu God. Until about 1900, there were idols of Rama and Krishna in Harimandir. They were thrown out with the upsurge in Arya Samaj in Punjab.

Recently in the temple, very old panels of paintings were discovered that depicted Hindu Gods. They were removed by SGPC promptly.

Thomas Bowdler was an Englishman, who did not like dirty words in Shakespeare. The dirty word in Granth sahib was Ram, which has been bowdlerized to Nam.
Today I hear about the ultimate bowdlerization, Chandi and Shiva were not part of GGS.``

For Nanak and his successors Hari was a word for God just as Ram was for Kabir. When they used the words Hari, Ram or Krishan for God in their discourses, they were not refering to the Hindu deities but to a monotheistic God. They used these words interchangeably with Allah and Rabb. This was probably done to explain their philosophy better to their followers who had hitherto been Hindus and Muslims. As for the idols of Ram and Krishna in Harmandir Sahib, this was the legacy of the Mahants who came into control of the Sikh shrines after Ranjit Singh`s demise. These Mahants had dancing girls and drinking parties inside Sikh shrines. They did not practice Sikhism but rather a hotch potch of hinduism and asceticism (forbidden in Sikhism). They were corrupt and engaged in nefarious activities using the Gurudwaras as a facade. They might have looked like Sikhs in appearance but they were despised by Sikhs. The Akalis, after considerable agitation were able to wrest the Gurudwaras back from the Mahants a few decades before partition.

Hindus have a habit of of usurping philosophies that are similar but distinct from Hinduism. While they might do so with the best of intentions, it is very patronizing to the religions or philosophy being usurped. All the Gurus starting from Nanak emphasized the distinct nature of their teachings. Caste was a big no-no in their teachings while it was the cornerstone of Hinduism in their day. The very concept of langar would have been repugnant to the Hindus of Nanak`s day because it involved breaking bread with all sorts of castes, even religions. To emphasize the point, up until partition there were signs of ``Hindu paani`` and ``Muslim paani`` in North India at railway stations. An uncle used to joke that Sikhs joined whichever line was shortest. The relationship between Sikhism and Hinduism is kind of like the one between Christianity and Judaism. Sikhism had its roots in Hindusim vis-a-vis concepts like karma and reincarnation but today is a distinct and separate religion.

regards

Celebrating the Khalsa Kaura Bhai,

Happy Baisakhi to you and Sikh brethren on this site. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Sikhism in India, not to mention outside India. This applies to both Hindus and Muslims. Some sikhs themselves seem to be confused. Like when they fight and kill over something as trivial as sitting on the ground or on chairs during langar. A muslim acquaintance once asked me if the kara on my hand should be drenched with muslim blood if it ever came off! My best friend who happens to be a muslim once said that Sikhism is a reactionary religion against Islam! As if the Gurus had nothing better to do. Hindus keep yapping about how Sikhs are only Hindus in a different disguise.

The blame for most of this ignorance about Sikhism lies with Sikhs themselves. They have not expounded the essence of their religion enough to other communities. In India they are mostly insular in the sense that they stick to within the Punjabi community wherever they go. So much so that the terms Sikh and Punjabi outside Punjab have come to mean the same thing. Doordarshan used to broadcast Gurbani on Sunday mornings and everything was naturally in Punjabi. If only they had subtitles to what was being recited, non-Punjabis could get a better understanding of Sikhism. I think language has been a big barrier to Sikhism being understood properly outside Punjab.

re: pmishra2

I have a good translation of the Granth Sahib on CD. I bought it in the bookstore outside Harmandar Sahib in Amritsar. Any good bookstore in India should have it on CD. If you are living outside India, contact the nearest Gurudwara and they might have it. Let me know if you need further help regarding this.

regards

Saving the Female Fetus re: stuka # 43

``In fact, the best way of increasing the ``value`` of a girl child is by allowing society to skew its gender balance. As there are more men competing for a shrinking pool of women, the power equation will shift.``

Stuka,

India being a patriarchial society, women will be considered even more as property when men will have to ``buy`` women as is happening in Haryana. Brothers will share women if they cannot afford to buy one each for themselves. The scenario you described is possible only when women are empowered through education; it doesn`t hold for uneducated rural women.