India-Iran Ties whats Kizilbash?

India-Iran Ties Aparna

The links between ancient India and Persia are millenia old not just centuries and predate Islam. Also a lot of what is Pakistan now was once part of the Persian empire.

Many Indian scholars emphasize the need for India to engage with neighbors with whom one has historic ties and economic potential in order to balance Eurocentrism or a Westward orientation. Relations with Iran fits these demands for an Indian foreign policy that is not subservient to western nations.

Well said, i hope the IPI thing goes through and India tells the US where to go.

Female Image in the NWFP Zeena

although i understand yours and cliftons comments about not prtraying women that way, recently there was a huge billboard in Pakistan with a hijabed women advertising a product, i dont think that is degrading to women at all.

Just a Woman Aisha

As Shandana said registering a protest is sometimes the best thing to do. My friends big sister was going to Sadiqabad on a bus with her mum when this moron sitting behind them kept trying to touch her through the seat, when she told aunty, auntyji kicked up a fuss `tere kaar ma pehn nai eh?` sort of stuff, everyone else beat the guy up and threw him off the bus...

its amazing how other men beat these guys up when a women raises her voice but dont say anything otherwise... those men should be shamed publicly by the girl and watch how all the other guys beat them up!!!

Female Image in the NWFP Zeena Khala

Punjab and Sindh dont follow this culture, this is very much a Pathan thing to do, have you ever seen a Pathan woman? Exactly my point. But also as the author mentioned its always been the way even before extremist Islam became popular there. Its a cultural thing that if those women want they can/will change...

Tho i think the removal of females from billboards is a bit much. No wonder Khans have a certain reputation.

My sister told me that on a recent visit to Mardan from Pindi she felt very uncomfortable, she was wearing a shawl to cover her head and was sat in the front of the car holding her baby while her husband was driving, she said that people just kept on staring and she didnt like NWFP at all, on their way back she said she had never been happier to see the `Welcome to Punjab` sign in her life.

I also felt that i was in a different country when i went to Quetta, the culture of Pakistan is very much split in the middle in my opinion, Punjab and Sindh having a similar culture and NWFP and Balochistan having a similar one.

Chief Justice’s Chess Interesting article very true observations... another project are those tower blocks in Karachi cutting that area of the beach off to Karachiites and making only for those people who live in the towers/area... Its not got permission to go ahead... by the way CJ also reversed sale of profit making Pak steel or another govt. owned company cant remember which one, but it was sold for a pitance to some friend of PM... that centaurus tower thing looks ugly and out of place for Islamabad, they can make cool building there if they want but at least keep the surrounding environment in mind and make the building blend with the Margalla Hills instead of looking ghastly... big statement like buildings such as those are suited much more to Karachi and Lahore not the capital!

Burqa Vaganza – A Satirical Backlash # 51

the poor girl looks like she is dying to get away from the over zealous Irani aunties!!!

Burqa Vaganza – A Satirical Backlash urstruly sahib

how do you post the urdu?

Burqa Vaganza – A Satirical Backlash For once i actually agree with Zeena Aunty Ji... Burqa should be a personal choice and no one should be judged on their attire... however on the flip side, some burqa clads (to use an Aunty Zeenaism) look down towards non burqa clads, but i find this is a trait held by those that become very `pious` the bearded ones as well, they start to look down on people whose outward appearance isn`t `islamic` enuff for them!!!

For the record, i too am a Pindo. And i happen to be very proud of my Pindo roots and my pind... i have rarely ever come across a women in the pind who wears a burqa, it just doesnt make sense in the heat or in the fields... my pind is near the maha pindo city of faislabad ex llylpur, and unfortunately soon might be swallowed up by the maha pind :( as the white shalvar mooch marooring lylepureye buy more and more land to feed their expansionist fantasies turning central Punjab into a mooch marooring white starched shalvar wearing super duper maha pind complete with our own film festival with entrants such as `Jatti da vair` and `Badmaash Gujjar`...

even in maha pind you hardly see women wear burqa... its actually only in the last few years i have seen my lovely pind diyaN mutyaraN go from lacha to shalvar, tho many still wear the lacha as its easier to manouver in, and i also think its more flattering than the shalvar... My Ma Ji (dadi) used to sit on the manji with her lacha and kameez and chunni, smoke the hookah and shout at all her daughter in laws `ni dubb jaaniyo mera hooka...`

Even the molvi`s wife never wore a burqa... burqa is a luxury for middle calss shehri log who have ac`s and shit... it seems to be shuttle cocking its way out of our society...

The PG Hamid Talat Khan Show haha... quite funny, also very true... there are so many of these talk shows on pak tv... seems like pakis only good for one thing - talking!!!

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule Harimau,

Urdu came from the camps of the Moghuls apparently. It has become refined, and the Luknovi traditions are well and alive in Lucknow and Karachi. If you study Urdu literature from united India of the 30`s and 40`s (i think the most interesting times and literature) you will come across authors such as Munshi Prem Chand, Rajinder Singh Bedi and others, it was a language not defined by religion at all.

Regards Punjabi, the opposite has happened much of Punjabi in Pakistan has been Urdu-ised and in India it has been Hindi-ised. It is only in the country side you will hear a purer Punjabi, and it shares a lot in common with Sindhi and other local North Indian Languages. Due to all these languages beign North Indian, Urdu included, they do share some similar words but thats about all.

Urdu in Pakistan has not allowed words from Punjabi or Sindhi to enter into the Urdu lexicon, which would just enhance the language even more, instead of `destroying` it as you say.

Every language evolves, and for all our languages the next big influence is English, however, the sad part is that we are not Asianising the English we borrow instead using it directly into our languages making Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi/Any other language sound jaded and the English seems not to fit into it properly.

Srk

I will look into see what the script for Punjabi and Sindhi was before Perso-Arabic and Devanagri, tho i think it might be Devanagri as this is what is used for Sanskrit and probably what was used to write all languages of the area.

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule have no idea srk, i know that Gurmukhi is only 400 odd years old and before then everything was written in Shamukhi... dont know what it was before then

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule #98

From the Redhouse Buyuk Elsozlugu

Ordu - Army
Orduevi - mil Officers Club
Ordugah - Military camp, military encampment

As far as i am aware Ordu is where the word Urdu originates from. In modern Turkish the language Urdu is known as Urduca.

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule Samar #87

What u say is right, In India many languages are written in Devanagri, and if one can read Hindi s/he can read many other languages like Nepali and Marathi. In Pakistan too it is the same, all our languages are written in the Perso Arabic script. Even those languages that have devanagri equivalents e.g. Punjabi and Sindhi. Punjabi is actually written in three scripts Shamukhi (Perso-Arabic, the original Punjabi script) Gurmukhi and devanagri, tho in Pakistan only Shahmukhi is used.

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule Jang

Those parts of Urdu grammar that come from Persian and Arabic are taught to us, if the teacher wants s/he will tell the student that they have come from Persian/Arabic etc. otherwise the student will assume them (quite rightly) just to be Urdu. which they have become now.

Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule Rahul

You asked on UP for a good Urdu grammar book:

Urdu: An essential grammar by Ruth Laila Schmidt, Routledge

http://www.amazon.com/Urdu-Essential-Grammar-Routledge-Grammars/dp/0415163811/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3084605-2125441?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177789048&sr=8-1

It has one chapter dedicated to Persian grammar in Urdu and one to Arabic grammar in Urdu, describing things such as the Izafat (increase, addition) e.g. Hukumet`e Pakistan, Jan`e man etc.

I quote from the book

`Urdu developed in close contact with Persian, which was the language of administration and education during the period of Muslim rule in India. Even after Urdu began to replace Persian as the language of poetry in the 18th centruy, Persian retained its official status for another century, and remained a rich source of literary vocabulary in Urdu. Elements of Persian grammar have been borrowed along with the vocabulary, and a knowledge of them is essential for reading literary Urdu, particularly poetry.`

From my personal experience this is true, when we did A level Urdu we had to read books like Taubat Unusoo and Umrao Jaan etc. We filled reems and reems of A4 paper with vocabulary that had almost all come from Persian and some from Turkish with of course the usual suspects from Arabic. Our teacher had a degree in Persian, and had been a broadcaster of news on Radio Pakistan. I would say to properly understand Urdu literature and especially poetry one should know at least the basics of the Persian language and its vocabulary, as unending amounts of it is used in Urdu.

Even my basic studies of Turkish have helped me understand soooooooo many Urdu words and where they come from, words like Ujret, i.e. Wages not much in use nowadays as people would just write tankhwa but used not long ago in the writings of Manto, Munshi Prem Chand and people of that time. Plus countless other words, open up any page in a Turkish dictionary and you are guaranteed to find so many words that you recognise and are used in Urdu today or have been used in the past. Open up a Persian dictionary and you will be even more amazed at the amount of words that are the same.

If i opened up a Hindi dictionary on the other hand (if i could read it) i would be utterly lost.

Quoting from the grammar book, the preface by Gopi Chand Narang

`Unlike Arabic and Persian, Urdu is an Indo-Aryan language akin to Hindi. Both Urdu and Hindi share the same Indic base, and at the phonological and grammatical level they are so close they appear to be one language, but at the lexical level they have borrowed so extensively from different sources (Urdu from Arabic and Persian, Hindi from Sanskrit) that in actual practice and usage each has developed into an independent language..... although the grammars of these laguages cover so much common ground, nevertheless in order to do justice to the differing sociolinguistic paradigms, seperate materials have to be developed for each of these languages, which taken together form the 4th largest speech community in the modern world.`

I remember seeing an interview of Imran Khan on Star News, the presenter asked him who he thought the most `sunder mahila` in Bharat was, he was confused and asked her to repeat the question when she did he asked her what a `mahila ` was, when she said aurat, he finally clicked and said `ah yani khatun!`. These kind of linguistic issues will continue to occur as we have more interaction, and eventually we in Pakistan will understand what a mahila is and you in India will understand what a khatun is!!!