Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia? #166 Posted by Urstruly on July 24, 2007 7:23:19 am

“but only because our social conditioning has rendered us a certain mindset. Otherwise I do not see a moral dilemma here.�

Perhaps you would solicit your Mrs. opinion, I am certain that her mamta will truly break your head for even considering the bleak thought of a 53 year old pawing her child. Attraction is one thing but having a child (a 12 year old) give birth to another, or be saddled with the responsibility of raising 2 or 3 kids by age 15, you think that is ok, that is fair? To be ruled by senior wives and have no chance of any sexual pleasure by the time she reaches lets say 20 and look forward to a long life of widowhood.

Man! if you don’t see a moral dilemma here – I am afraid you have no morals.

Does Islam, in fact, Encourage Paedophilia? Asif:

Like Nasah pointed out I think the appropriate title has to be about child marriage. What I find extremely objectionable for a 53 year old marrying a 6 year old girl is that by doing so you are practically destroying the girl’s life. You are relegating her to a life of widowhood, never to have a partner who could share her wishes, her desires or her passions. The old man is fully capable of saddling her with his progeny, take away her youth (perhaps her most precious asset) and then with his life over to suffer the prime of her life as a widow, alone to raise the children, without the companionship of a partner to grow, blossom and mature with.

For the old man, she is a toy, a child, easily manipulated, molded into any role that he wants her to play. Children are our sacred trust, parents, especially mothers of any species would protect their welfare even at the cost their own lives. But you take away that protection when you marry them off and subject them to adult pressures, to have the responsibilities of an adult. Suddenly she is at par with other women of the household and has to fend for herself, to fulfill responsibilities assigned to her. Fortunately Aisha didn’t have any children. Imagine a 12 year old giving birth and then continuing to have two more by age 15, only to see her husband die the next year.

Lucky for her that she became Ummul Momineen with the first name in the register to get her allowance, and of course she didn’t have any kids, so she did very well. But we can well imagine the fate of others who weren’t so lucky.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? Fellow chowkies:

I am sorry, work has interfered with my play here. I am still quite amazed at you guys, how you can manage your jobs and also put out these humdingers on chowk. I tried to do this for 2 days spending mornings like this and my job is falling apart. I better take care of the shop or there will be no job.

So with great reluctance do I bid farewell to get a handle on the essential. But I will be back soon enough perhaps on a different board, where I would be there to butt heads with Urstruly on slavery and other sordid affairs – jo daltay hein roshni meray dilay sau chak pey.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #687 by Urstruly

FACT CHECK:

Always hoping on ignorance to make your tall claims!


“Elsewhere, in the world slavery was abolished without bloodshed where a stepwise or gradual method was adopted. The later was the method that Islam proposed by first creating an awareness against slavery and preparing the minds of people so that they would prefer ``freeing`` of slaves as a virtue that is rewarded by God, over enslaving others.”

Step by step approach in Islam? I don’t know whether you are talking about steps up or steps down. The women and children of Banu Quraizah were all sold in slavery. The Khulfa e Rashidun and beyond all had extensive slaves. Janniseries and the extensive harems of the Ottoman Empire are well known.

Now lets come to India. Mohammad bin Qasim sent some kaniz and ghulams to Hajjaj. Mahmud of Ghazni actually took 500,000 slaves of both sexes around 1000 AD. Mughal Emperors as well as local potentates including the latter day nawabs all had extensive harems populated by concubines. Slave taking as those captured in war, or purchased in the market or sent in lieu of tribute invariably resulted in the conversion of the slave to Islam. (this from good old wikipedia)

Abolition of slavery in India occurred, because the British abolished slavery through out the British Empire in 1834. But in India it was effectively abolished by 1860. So no step down approach only British bumboo – even that didn’t quite work.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #669 by zeemax

“a soft belly as that moron termed such controversial things”

Yaar Zee:

Hum tau aap ki buzm mein aap ko yaad kurtay hein. Aur aap hum sey yun kutratey hein jaisay shaitan …….. musjid sey bhagta hai.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #650 by tahmed32


“Nonsense!! I dont recall ever being told to ``emulate`` the prophet.”

This recollection business or “being told” are very flimsy reasons and then you start applying your own 21st century logic which is completely alien to medieval history. Not only did the Prophet and the Quran say it loudly but the Prophet himself promoted his personal cult during his life time. In Medina, when he would wash his hands and face hardly would a drop reach the ground as devotees fought each other to drink the used water. When he would spit, devotees would gather the spit and reverently put it on their eyes and faces. He could have stopped this excessive veneration but ………. He didn’t!

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #623 by tahmed32

I didn’t mean to ignore your posts at all. Quoting Churchill had nothing more to do with then advocating a firm stand, rather then appeasement which was the policy of his nemesis Neville Chamberlain and Lord Acton.

“Now you are conveniently treating the messenger as the message.”

Absolutely – the Messenger as well as the Quran continuously claim and proclaim that the Prophet’s life is the practical example of the Message, a complete zabita e hayat. Every Muslim is expected not only to follow his example but to emulate him in the most minute of details.

“But dont let me spoil your fun....”

This is fun? You must take for a real heartless s.o.b. No Sir! This is no fun. This is the most heart wrenching, soul tearing subject there is. It is like realizing that your home has been completely devoured by termites. Not knowing what would happen to your loved ones who would not even listen to you. Are you better off telling them that the house will come tumbling down over their heads and to save whatever can be salvaged – or should you let it fall on top of them, without even a warning as you may ruffle up their sensibilities?

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #606 by Urstruly

“In Islam, no one is condemned to hell and no one is a born sinner. Everyone, including the one who according to human standards could have never done anything good in his life has a chance and hope to be blessed in afterlife. It all depends upon the will of Allah. Even if I have done everything right in life and never reneged on a religious virtue, still it does not give me gurantee to be blessed. It is all His will.``

As usual you try to twist things around. The point is not whether God would send Abu Talib to hell or heaven. That is not what we were talking about here. The discussion was about respect for your parents. Did the Apostle do right by his uncle, who had nurtured him, protected him, guided him and loved him through out his life, including taking on animosity with his family and clan. Did the Prophet do right by him? Did he like you quoted “say, My Lord, show them mercy, just as they cared for me in my childhood.” 17:23-24

He did not!!! He walked out and did not even conduct or join in his funeral. Rather then praying to Allah to forgive the trespasses of his beloved Uncle he said forget it. Maybe – he should have taken a lessen from the play book of that old Jew from Banu Quraizah while their slaughter was taking place. This old man was offered his life but refused because he demanded the life of his loved ones as well, because for him life wasn’t worth it without them. He chose death with his loved ones then life without them.

Wouldn’t the Prophet have made a better illustration a better practical guide of 17:23-24 and the hadith that you have so dutifully quoted, had he said: God! Heaven will be no heaven without my beloved Uncle. I’d rather suffer in hell with him then to see him suffer in there. But he didn’t. Abu Talib joins the fate of his other uncles Abu Jahal and Abu Lahab.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #606 by Urstruly

“In Islam, no one is condemned to hell and no one is a born sinner. Everyone, including the one who according to human standards could have never done anything good in his life has a chance and hope to be blessed in afterlife. It all depends upon the will of Allah. Even if I have done everything right in life and never reneged on a religious virtue, still it does not give me gurantee to be blessed. It is all His will.

The concept of ``intercession`` of Holy Prophet (pbuh) has crept into Islam through Chritianity”

“Intercede” is the word used in Ibne Ishaq so I didn’t make it up. But then again Maulana Urstruly knows better. What you wrote is purely from your understanding of things which don’t mean diddly. By bringing in your logic all you have done is engage in innovation – which is among the gravest of all sins. Because by innovating you have joined the ranks of the munafiqin and Echo will Boom you.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #587 by Urstruly

“self-less respect and love for parents. And Islam stresses upon it even if it is a one way street.”
……
Messenger of Allah, who is the most deserving of good care from me?`` The Prophet replied: ``Your mother (which he repeated three times) then your father, then your nearest relatives in order``.”

That is what he said - but look at what he actually did.

“Mohammad turned his attention t his dying uncle. He asked him to become a Muslim and then Mohammed could intercede for him on judgement day. His uncle told him, “The Quraysh would say that I only accept Islam because I fear death. But I should say it just to give you pleasure.” He drifted off, but as he died, his lips moved. His brother put his head close to Abu Talib and listened. He then said, “Nephew, my brother said what you wished him to say.” Mohammad’s reply was, “I did not hear him.” Mohammad left.”

Ibne Ishaq I278

Abu Talib was the protector of the Prophet’s life and security he was the father figure, but he was damned to Hell, he was not a Muslim and the Prophet would not intercede him to prevent this fate.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #579 by Urstruly

No! exactly the opposite. They are quick to dish it out and have done so for centuries. Adherents of other religions, accept the abuse, take it and never cry blasphemy or engage in breaking up their own infrastructure. Muslims should take it just like every body else.

Hun kyon laggi ron jud nikka lugya hon

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #547 by Urstruly

“the paramount human value or attribute called ``respect for parents``

Where did you come up with this cardinal virtue? Perhaps Confucious? Correct me if I am wrong. As I understand it - the cardinal virtues of Islam are fear of Allah, jihad and shaadat. Christianity regards hope, faith and charity to be its cardinal virtues. According to Aristotle justice, fortitude, temperance and wisdom are the secular cardinal virtues. Sir! Respect for ones parents comes down the totem pole, it is not there.

Ask the Momineen at Badr as they threw the bodies of their slain Quraishi fathers into wells. Surely a sign of deep respect! Or perhaps, it is not such a paramount human value. Or should we take the examples of our venerated 5th caliph and his governor. Amir Muawiyah ibn ul Hind should venerate his mother Hind of Hamza liver chomping fame at Uhud. Or should we consider Ziyad ibn e Summayah whose mother in this case Summayah was a whore and he eventually had his name converted to Ziyad bin Abu Sufyan as he claimed that in her days as a prostitute Abu Sufyan used to visit her and was actually his father.

Sir respect for parents is earned by them by the proper care for us they exhibit in our childhood. It is never a given in any culture, civilization or religion.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #547 by Urstruly

“If you check last 500 threads you will find that ratio to be 90 to 10.”

You are probably right about this ratio, but let’s put it into proper context. We have gained this knowledge about the “soft underbelly” of Islam only in the past 10 years or so, since the advent of the internet and we have had the ability to share this information. So this phenomenon is quite recent and as people make new discoveries, the surprise and shock of it all makes them high light it more so today then what they might do 30 years from now when it is old news.

But this abuse is only on one website, which allows this free unfettered discussion which is not available on any other venue. So everybody who has the need to say openly what they think ends up coming to chowk to say it because others maintain their right to edit. You cannot go to a newspaper, a magazine, or any other media outlet where you can call a spade a spade. But then again a narrow cult can only maintain its hold on people by restricting their access to knowledge. I am very glad that they have now no such ability, although I am convinced that they will try their darndest to keep this information from the masses in Muslim countries and that is the battle we can never allow them to win. So without crying foul why don’t you fess up and take the hits as they come, you have done this to others through out the centuries. You never respected their temples their Gods, you were the “idol breakers”, weren’t you?

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? ABOUT VILE BLASPHEMY:

The Momineen are quick to claim respect, tolerance, reverence for their icons, personalities, buzurgs etc. but are they willing to grant others the same privilege? Do the same folks who are shouting and screaming about Hamid’s irreverence do they ever show reverence, forget that, even tolerance for those who are unlike them?

Read the posts from these very individuals when they are addressing Hindus. They cannot get away from denigrating them from top to bottom. Right from Hanuman, Shiva, lingham to pee drinking, to idol worshipping to what ever hatred, demeaning rhetoric that they can muster. But they save their worst, their most vitriolic hatred, their most vicious venom for those who are in their midst and somehow feel inescapable from annihilation. These are the Qadianis – they subject them and their revered Mirza to the worst abuse ever.

You see this dichotomy? They feel perfectly justified in subjecting other religions to abuse, ridicule, logical examination but would not allow others or even their own from doing the same to theirs. How do they reconcile this? Elemental! My dear Watson! When they are looking at others they are looking at them through the lens of modernity. They expect others to treat them with tolerance, with respect, grant them rights as per let’s say …. American standards.

But when it comes to their treatment of others they are using a different standard, which is an Islamic standard. How under Islam they should be treated. Under Islam there is no tolerance for another point of view. Either you are with us or you are ignorant (the most benign of conditions) so we shall give you the Message. If you are already aware of the message and still persist in your creed, your faith, your religion, then you are an enemy of God, condemned to hell fires for all eternity. If you are enemy of God how can you be treated with any respect? Actually you have no humanity, so every thing against you is justifiable. Forget respect, you should be put to the sword. You are vajibul qutl.

This is precisely why minorities in Pakistan change their names, do not allow others to know that they are different precisely because there is no tolerance – no room in the creed for a difference of opinion, for a different way, it insists on one and only one way.

So the world has to stand up and subject these purveyors of hate to exactly the same treatment that they have meted out to others for centuries with impunity. Better yet! We should send them all at their expense, a one way ticket to ………… no not Gitmo. No Sir! That is too much trouble – they should be sent to WANA, Tank or other Azad areas where the 7th century ideal Islamic State continues to operate, with the Medina Constitution as laid out by the Prophet as its guiding document.

“For God’s sake go” ………….. Winston Churchill May 1940…………. to Neville Chamberlain.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #444 by hamidm2

“winston churchill said this in 1899 and it is still true :”

Hamid, my friend! You made me proud, for putting out this gem. It is not just now that we have become aware of this infection in our midst. People have known it for centuries but the forces of obscurantism kept it hidden from us. We can all thank the internet for allowing us this flowering of knowledge. Finally we are getting a glimpse of what has been denied to us.

You see the nature of this affliction is so insidious like the man said it “paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.”

The time has come that we take on this challenge and if I may also quote from good old Winston, what we must do is:

“to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. Let that be realised; no survival”

Winston Churchill May 13, 1940

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? Philosopher Sahib

You just came 180 degrees:

You agree with Tahmad when he writes about not reading more into what Quran actually says. Before this you said:

“”``Ambiguous verse`` is a technichal term.it means the symbolic nature of language

“Even the allegorical verses cannot be absolutly independent of the meanings they obviously release.”

i said that according to Quran ,`without having theoretical clarity` you cannot attain ultimate spirtual height.

Are u aware of even the simple and basic laws of logic?contradition is an incredibly complex philosophical issue”

Aap nein tau purrh purrh key damagh kharab kur lia hay. May I suggest another discipline for you, perhaps …… psycho….therapy.