What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #401 by philosopher

I don’t know what you mean by linguistic philosophy or linguistic philosophers, but major books of philosophy are neither vague, nor subject to different interpretations. The few that I have read are quite clear and if you go through Plato’s Republic or any of his dialogues – they are quite clear. He painstakingly goes through the process of having his interlocutors, ask all kinds of questions, from all different point of views so that he can make it crystal clear as to what he means. For complex concepts or where there is a chance of misinterpretation he gets down to mathematical proofs, always or only explanations. Same thing is true of Machiavelli or Nietzsche.

Yes you can understand it differently from one reading to the next or if you read it as a young man and then again in your middle age, but that is your personal growth and not the text.

“the more complex truths language carries the more vague it becomes.”

If that would be the case then Einstein would be the most complex of all writers. And he is not – he explains his concepts plainly in simple language that any lay person can understand if he opens his mind to it. Same is true of Hawkins, they try to explain through theories which are at the outer edge of our understanding and are able to convey what they mean simply and without “complexity is the price we have to pay for accuracy”.

This thesis of yours is entirely redundant.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #397 by philosopher


“agreed.perfect interpretation. cheers.”

I am not sure how to take this. Am I being dismissed or have we reached an understanding, set up a basis, a foundation, a point of agreement from which we can move to the next level of our discussion.

But given that you are Philosopher and I an optimist, so let me just try and take it to the next level. Moreover neither you nor I are interested in mischief or arbitrariness, then the only way we can interpret the Quran’s allegorical verses are for ourselves – as they mean to us as individuals, depending upon the plain or the level of understanding that we are at. This is how it has always been done. I have said this several times and at the risk of repeating myself again – we are free to develop, create or maintain our own relationship with God and nobody, no clergy, no Book, no human or other entity can interfere in the sanctity of that relationship. So we can take the whole Book, take a single verse, or even a single word and develop a model on which we base our relationship with God … and we remain in the fold.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #387 by philosopher

“the point that you have raised is important but it requeires a full length article to explain that.”

Hey bring it on – what’s better then to do maghaz mari on a Sunday afternoon.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #387 by philosopher

I just looked at 3:7 as per Maudoodi page 223 Tafheem ul Quran.

“It is He Who has sent down this Book to you. There are two kinds of verses in this Book: MUHKAMAT (what are precise in meaning) they are the essence of the Book, and the other kind is MUTASHABIHAT (which are ambiguous). Those, who are perverse of heart always go after the MUTASHABIHAT in pursuit of mischief and try to interpret them arbitrarily, whereas in fact, none save Allah knows their real meaning! In contrast to them, those, who possess sound knowledge, say, “We believe in them because all of them are from our Lord.” And the fact that is that only the people of insight can learn lessons from such things.”


I think it is as clear or ambiguous as one would like it to be. You can take it like it says that God only knows what the MUTASHABIHAT mean and anybody trying to decipher their meaning is just engaging in mischief or arbitrariness. Or you can have a high opinion of yourself as a person of insight and thus learn lessons (draw your own conclusions) from such things. VOW!

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #379 by philosopher

`without having theoretical clarity`

Now! That is a statement and a half. Please name a few people who we can universally agree upon who achieved such theoretical clarity.

I think I have a very hard time deciphering your terminology. So before I make another mistake of quoting you out of context or understanding something entirely different from what you actually meant. Would you mind clarifying what you are conveying from this convolution of jargon. I quote from #365:


“after being influenced by the greek formal logic muslims ignores a very important distinction between islam and imaan.imaan was necessarily a non propositional according to Quran whereas islam and belief are propositional terms.the propositional logic and the laws of thought borrowed by the greek logician converted the whole structure of Quranic existential and phenomenological language in propositional statments which led the prevailing version of political islam which are resposible for many problems in the muslim world.”

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #371 by philosopher

When I mentioned the virtues of Islam, I was referring to the societal virtues for the ummah as a whole. You took tuqvah and propelled it to a totally individual and spiritual level, which was not the intent of my very simple and elemental post.

At the very end of #361 you write “according to Quran spirtualism is directionless” I completely agree with this statement. But that again is for the individual. Islamic history is full of instances of such individuals who refused to compromise or participate in any societal scheme which would compromise their personal integrity.

So the point remains how do you coalesce, how do you bring about the ummah as a whole to agree upon fundamental values which could bring about peace and prosperity in this world and salvation in the after life.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #317 by zeemax

“THE VITAL PILLARS OF ISLAM”

What you have tried to describe here are your conception of Islamic virtues.

TUQVAH or fear of Allah is perhaps the most important of Islamic virtues. Quran sharif refers to it or implies it multiple times on just about every page. The next most important virtue is JIHAD. Every time Quran refers to those who fight in God’s way or refers to those who spend in God’s way it is referring to Jihad. Quran is full of such references especially during the Medinat period. The next most important virtue in Islam is death – SHAHADAT. Love of death as much as you love life. The momin’s wish and desire to achieve heaven as soon as possible. To consider the life on this earth an unwelcome prelude to the eternity that awaits him in junnat e firdos.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #92 by hamidm2

“muslims still haven’t figured out ….. the joys of furniture ...........”

Buddy you are out a luck. Seventh century Arabia was devoid of wood – so forget furniture, it is not even in the imagination of its proponents. Even in junnah the only thing that the Quran repeatedly mentions is that momineen will be sitting on “cushions” and celebrating their good fortune as they hear the laments and cries of their brethren on the other side as they get roasted by hell fires.

So a pre req for achieving heaven is strong ankles bejeweled of corns earned through consistent abuse of resting your butt on them.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #95 by zeemax


“Haha ... Most original insult i’ve heard in a long time ..”

Spoken like a true connoisseur.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage? #53 by Zeena

“Whenever I am deeply involved in prayers my tears don’t stop.......”

I am deeply touched with your piety and hereby propose that:

You be declared a saint immediately and fundraiser for construction of a mizar for you at Tank, NWFP.

Special prayers - that when Allah finally decides to recall you from this world he grants you 72 houras despite your being of the unfavored gender.

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth #432 by zeemax

“If a liberally inclined Muslim understands and accepts as true the underlying principles of Islamic society”

May be you can elaborate on these fundamental principles. Better yet why don’t you define them first and then just describe them with some examples.

Thanks!

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth
#289 by Urstruly

I have gone through it and man if I may say so – what a crock of sh**t. I stand by Occam’s razor, “one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything”. This is why an FIR (first incident report) is given the top most priority in a court case. Unvarnished truth –as it happened, call it the way you see it. Let the reader, let the judge, let the jury examine the evidence for it self and come to their own conclusions.

But Mr. Maudoodi had a different agenda – he was trying to uplift (if not create) a nation. He also wanted to be their leader. So he had to come up with some explanation that could be palatable to his congregation. As usual, when you start looking for immediate or short term gains you end up making long term mistakes.

All the sources that have reported this incident as accurate are the primary, most immediately after the actual event. I confirmed this in both Ibn e Ishaq and Al Tabri. The sources that Maudoodi quotes who question them are all way after the fact and who were looking at this through the prism of history. I am quoting a passage which is on page 44 where Mr. Maudoodi makes his case in earnest.


“The reality of the incident is this:

The Holy Prophet recited Surah An-Najm and performed prostration at the end of it. At this, all the hearers, both the Muslims and the mushriks, fell down in prostration. This was what really happened and there is nothing strange about it. Let us depict the occasion: The Holy Prophet was reciting a forceful piece of the eloquent Quran in a very impressive manner. Naturally the occasion produced an emotional effect and all the listeners instinctively fell down in proatration along with him. It was because of such ecstasies produced by the Holy Prophet’s recital of the Quran as this that the disbelievers dubbed him a “sorcerer”. As regards the story that the Holy Prophet praised the deities of he disbelievers, it appears that the Quraish concocted the story to hide their “defeat”. Probably someone or other of them explained away their defeat, saying, “We ourselves heard Muhammad praising our deities. Therefore we also fell down in prostrations along with him”. As regards the migrants to Habash, they returned to Makkah when they heard the concocted story that there had been a compromise between the Holy Prophet and the Quraish. It appears that some of those people who had seen the Muslims and the mushriks falling down together in prostration, presumed that peace had been made between them, so the story traveled to the migrants in Habash who had no means to verify it and thus thirty-three of them returned to Makkah.”

I am pretty certain that this will not sway you or any of those who share your views. So I conclude by quoting the Quran may be that will have some effect.

“Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering”………………….Surah 2:7

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth 275 by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 1:32pm PT

”The incident that you have mentioned comes from unathenticated or fabricated ahadith. None of the Sihah Sitta (seven most authentic) compendiums of ahadith list those ahadith. For refernce, please see; Tafheem-ul-Qura`n:


http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/022/surah_all.htm”



You know some thing – I never thought that you would actually lie. I have always taken you to be an intellectually honest person (misguided maybe) but not dishonest. But Man! You say things with such dhurralla, with such conviction that people kind a take your word for it.

But today I was intrigued by your conviction in this matter. So although, it is really hard for me to read Urdu, I did persevere. I used the link that you gave me for tafheem ul quran, please check for yourself page 240 where the whole incident is clearly mentioned. The details are a bit different from mine but the incident is the same. Let me translate it for others. This is the direct translation from tafheem ul quran.

“The case as is related is that the Prophet developed a desire and a wish that if ayahs of Quran were revealed to him which could lessen the opposition and the hate that the polytheists felt, may be they could come closer to Islam. Or at least it should lessen their opposition to Islam. This desire was only in his heart when he during a gathering of the Quraish started getting the prophetic message it was Sura-e-Najam. While he was reciting it suddenly he uttered the words “THESE HIGH RANKED GODDESSES, THERE BLESSINGS ARE DEFINITELY NEEDED” beyond this he continued reciting Sura-e-Najam. At the end of the Sura when he went into sijdah all the Quraish the mushiriqeen as well as muslimeen went into sijdah together.

The polytheists said that now they had no dispute left with Muhammad. We also say that God is the creator and the giver, but these help us and our well wishers. That evening Gabriel came and said; what have you done? I never brought these two verses. This caused the Prophet great anguish and God revealed verse 8 Sura Banu Israel. (I checked the Quran for this - something is wrong with this reference because this verse does not refer to this incident). This continued to be a source of pain and anguish for the Prophet till this current verse was revealed where God said that this is not the first time this happened to one of his messengers.

The results of this event were far reaching because the Quraish and the muslimeen had all performed a sijdah together. The emigrants who had gone to Abbysinia heard that peace had been declared between the Prophet and the polytheist of Mecca. A lot of them returned back. But upon return they discovered that the news of compromise was false, the enmity between Islam and kufr continued.

This event is described in the tafseers of Ibn e jareed, ibn e saad, al wakidi, musa bin uqbah, ibn e ishaq and ibn e rabi hatim …………..etc.”

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth FACT CHECK

#268 by hamidm2

2. you claim that the arabs had added 360 dieties to al-lah, but isn`t it true that muhammad (pbuh and his camel) had intially okayed worshiping al-lah`s three daughters before al-lah disowned them ...... what happened ?”

#269 by Urstruly

“Ans 2;

This is false accusation and an outright lie - an insult to the people who sacrificed their lives, families, and well being for the cause of Monotheism.”

What Hamid has referred to are called the Satanic verses , which is precisely the title and the topic of the book Satanic Verses by Rushdie. I am not a 100% certain, but I believe it was Abu Sufyan himself who had gone to the Apostle of God for a compromise. The Quraish and all the people of Mecca would give up all their Gods and Goddesses – clean out the whole Kabah, worship only Allah if he would only allow his 3 daughters the Goddesses al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat to remain in the Kabah.

The Prophet waited for a revelation which came and it approved inclusion of these Goddesses. Actually they were referred in these verses as “al-Gharaniq al-ula” (the high birds). The Quraish were relieved that they could now get back to there customary pilgrim trade as a unified people, but that was not to be.

Next time the Quraish saw the Prophet, the compromise had been abrogated. Gabriel had come down and revealed that the earlier verses were not from God but actually from Satan who had disguised himself as Gabriel. Thus these verses of the Quran were abrogated and actually there is mention of the 3 Goddesses in Sura 53:19-20. The abrogation was also confirmed in the Quran with Surah 22:52.

“Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;”


So the incident did occur. It did cause uproar in Mecca. It was abrogated.

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth JUSTIFICATION FOR RELIGION

The central question that needs to be answered is that – given that religion is nothing more then myth and superstition, then why the heck a good 85% of the inhabitants of this planet are so totally devoted to it? Say a thing about their faith or religion and you will have a riot on your hands.

At the risk of harping on the same tune, I believe that the tri-partite theory of soul explains this fairly well.

The rational part of our self (the mind) is actually the doubting Thomas. When ever we are given a story it is the skeptical one, wanting to check and verify for its truth. As we develop our rational side through knowledge, science, mathematics etc. we are making use of disciplines which as a rule are taking us away from the realm of superstition and in other words blind faith.

But then there is the other side of us which is our true being – our self. This is where we determine what we like or dislike. This is where our wishes and desires reside; this is where we are haunted by our fears and our demons. We all know that all these facets of us are irrational but we have no choice but to embrace them, because this is who we are. This is why we say in Punjabi ‘shauk da koi mul nain’ (price is irrelevant when you love something). Same thing applies to our demons, fear is irrational we know it but we succumb to it. I know a lot of adults who would not look under their bed before going to sleep. Let a mouse scamper by my bed and you would see me terrified out of my wits, unable to sleep for hours.

Religion appeals to this part of us. It helps us cope with our irrational fears, our hopes and desires. It helps us deal with our impending mortality for which the rational side has nothing hopeful to offer. Without hope life it self becomes unbearable. So try to take that hope away from people which is given to them by religion and they become unhinged.

So as our rational self expands its reach through science and knowledge it would alley our fears and the realm of religion will continue to diminish. But we will continue to remain saddled with superstition unless and until we determine once and for all – WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH.

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth #222 by GT

“that the experience is God”

No man! That was no God. Actually it was a Goddess and her name is Kali – and that churrail has enchanted you.