Reforms! What Reforms? One respects Dr. Hoodhboy`s candor and courage -- a shortened version of his article was published in the Dawn as well and Dr. Ata ur Rehman hopefully read it. But, I have three points to make:

1) Dr. Ata is probably one of the most brilliant men around -- keeping his world class concurrent contributions in HEJ, Chemistry Journal editing, COMSTECH, Ministry of S & T and HEC. Perhaps he is overstretched -- nevertheless he is highly dedicated and he is probably a genius. It is disingenous to blame the 12 day Internet failure on Ata -- he had legislated 50% satellite backup which fell to 2% in his aftermath. The growth of the Internet in his tenure, the greater respect to higher eduction which will probably take half a generation to take root, the importation of Pak Expats as faculty, the dissemination of knowledge through digital libararies -- these are all fundamental building blocks for change. You cannot on the one hand condemn the lack of intellectualism and knowledge in Pakistan and in the same breath blame the poverty of research proposals on Ata. One has to make a start before one goes to improve quality.

2) Zia Chisty, by the way, is a brilliant man who won over Mushy and Ata with a combination of brains and PR. They do not favor him because he bribed them or is related to them, they favour him because they think he is good for the country. In the real world, anywhere in the world, many projects germinate based on relatinships. If Zia`s mom got funding, it is wrong to imply that it is only due to sifarish and she could have gotten funding for any quality of project. I feel it is this kind of sceptic pessimism which hurts positive change.

3) If you undertake a lot of projects some are bound to fail. That is the law of the VC and that is the law elsewhere. Dealing with Government apathy, changing mindsets and a society are probably the hardest undertakings. It takes a different type of intelligence, but it is probably much harder than doing original work in Theoretical Physics. Yes its apples and oranges but leading change in society demands many more dimensions of intelligence. It so easy to be an arm chair critic and so hard to deliver. Life away from Ivory Towers is a different cup of tea -- particularly when one has to inspire people to change rather than heaping condescension and criticism on them. And by people one doesn`t mean impressionable students -- one means battle heardened, apathetic, often corrupt, cynical veterans.

Skeptical And Counter-Skeptical Trends In Medieval Islam A well-written and thought provoking article and I do hope we get more of these. Now, a listing of what I feel are biases or debatable assumptions:

1. Gill uses ``Islamic Tradition`` synonymously with (let`s use that hackneyed) ``True Islam`` despite the fact that his title suggests multiple thought trends. Some Islamic tradition at one point or the other may have been an enemy of reason or free enquiry (in this case they burned books rather than a menu of hemlock or decapitation) but my version of ``true`` Islam did not ever. A very solid argument can be developed about the Quran and the Prophet supporting empirical enquiry and reason. Bases include over twenty refereces in the Quran to use one reason and study creation to check whether the Quran makes sense or not - as well as reputable Ahadith in which the Prophet called the learned his inheritors and urged people to go to the end of the earth (i.e. China) in search of knowledge. This is why, it can hardly be argued that it was Islam and the Quran which created such intellectual dynamism in Islam. So at the very least, we have an apparent contradiction on our hands whereby the same fountainhead which created the intellectual dynamism is then claimed to have stifled it.

2. Of course Gill`s other bias/assumption is the Darwinian/Positivist/Materialistic one that we as the human race are evolving and progressing and the current State of the Art - the West and its space program - represents the pinnacle of human achievement. Any number of post-modern philosophers would disagree - quite apart from (let us call them) Islamic reactionaries or your odd World Economic Forum rioter. Is the extra car in the garage worth the fact that you never knew your father? Are you okay with your state school system teaching your children gay fairy tales as a price to pay for your cherished freedom of opinion? Do we believe that USA mass media presents pluralistic viewpoints on really important issues? What happens when we apply American consumerist trajectories - say in the consumption of Oil -to China in a generation? POOF! So let us say these are value judgements - and leave it at that.

A minor point - the Arabs did have a great tradition of mathematics. The advances in mathematics attained by the people living in the delta of the Tigris and the Euphrates were unsurpassed till the Greeks five thousand years later. Of course by the time of the Prophet in Arabia all that was lost. This then leads us to Gill`s key thesis that in fact it was the collision of reason with religion (in the case of Europe the good side one) that lead Islam into decline. The above two points I have raised question some of the assumptions behind his argument. This then leads to the question of what caused the decline in the Islamic civilization? But first let us put this question into perspective. Let us look at other Dominant civilizations of the past - Athens lasted what - a couple of hundred years? Rome - maybe three hundred years. Britain - one/two hundred years. All now little countries. America - a hundred years and counting. Islam was dominat from say the end of the seventh to the end of the seventeenth century - a thousand years. (Its decline started with the Battle of Alleppo in 1571 - but the Ottomons were still dominant for another century.) Today, a sorry state they might be in, but Muslims ring the globe.

Finally this brings us to Gills covert question (and recipe) - how does the Islamic world improve/modernize/whatever? Well certainly it is not the New World Order recipe.

At the time of the collapse of the Ottoman empire - 40% of the land in Constantinople was public Waqf - donated by the rich to the poor. Egypt provided a full time attendant to every blind man. Education was free. The Prophet, when he died, sank to a mat on a barren floor - refusing to emulate the Byzantine emperors. One man challenged the Caliph Umar about the length of his tunic which seemed longer than the standard allotment of cloth from the last spoils of war - which every man received. He answered because I am tall my two sons gave me some of their cloths. In Spain and elsewhere, Muslims, Christians and Jews, black,white, rich and poor lived and worked together not with tolerance but with true empathy and brotherhood. All this amidst a great flowering of science, mathematics, medicine, literature, poetry and state craft. For my money, it is someone in there that the answer lies.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 Suddenly its back to the Eighties. The Hindus, a

people who have thrived under foreign rule for a

thousand years, were well equipped to excel in a

world rule by the USA and the West (of course they

quickly cast aside any loyalty to socialist

principles with the Soviet defeat.)

The bania among them was used to obsequiousness

coupled with focused self interest. Suddenly they

are not that important anymore. That delirious

trip by Clinton is suddenly replaced by an almost

overnight new reality - failed dot comes, eroding

margins in commodity IT services and a massively

reduced geo-stratedic importance. They are still

in the old frame of mind though - self righteous

and self importance. The ubiqitous Bombay pavement

beggar becomes the motif again. Kanwal Rekhi,

Kushwant Singh, Dilip Kumar - the Hindus of

substance - receive death threats. The Hindu

connives to stoak the fires of tragedy - just like

all those politicans in those good old Indian

movies. But of course in the end he looses -

isolated, maligned, and then ignored.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 The USA Government is accusing Usamah bin Laden of

terrorism. It is accusing the Taliban of harboring

terrorists. It is not accusing Taliban of

Terrorism. But it is saying that in its punishment

it will equate terrorists with supporters of

terrorists. The USA Government does not brand the

``Jehadis`` in Pakistan and Kashmir either

terrorists or freedom fighters. Rather as a

problem to be solved through talks by Pakistan and

India.

Will their position change after the attack on the

WTC? Who knows. But one does know that though

India and its journalists have been screaming till

they are blue in the face, the US Government is

looking to Pakistan as a friend and an ally to

help them battle terrorism - rather than as a

supporter of terrorism.

The Indians on this forum can scream about Jehadis

= terrorism till they are blue in the face also,

unfortunately for them, this notion is not getting

traction where it counts - the USA Government and

the American People.

Also I noted in one of the Hindu emails a charming

outburst of anger against the shortcoming of their

embassy in educating people that Sikhs are not

Muslims. Charming - but patently naive. THose

people who are inclined this way don`t care - they

are not only attacking Sikhs, they attacked Hindu

shops in Chicago, today one Pakistani friend told

me that the day care his child goes to has a Hindu

woman teacher and some American parents refused to

leave their child with her. In Australia they

burnt a Lebanese Church! It is not a matter of

religion - it is a matter of how one looks. A

crazed mob is not in the mood for an explanation

of how Sikhs are not Muslims or Lebanese

Chirstians are not really Muslims - it is looking

to vent its rage. Maybe a year long campaign on

CNN might - just might - change perceptions, but

no embassy and nothing short of that has any chance.

In my mind, over the last few days, the Hindu has

distinguished himself. While the Christian and the

Jewish leaders of the community have embraced the

Muslim, the Hindu is gleefully stoaking the fire -

though it is burning him also. This is the true

difference between civilizations. Doublespeak,

xenophobia, the end is near.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 I am pleased to report a backlash to the backlash.

Americans that friends and myself have come into

contact with have expressed concern at our safety

and are going out of their way to express their

solidarity with Muslims. What a decent and humane

society.

Meanwhile Indian journalists continue to gleefully

goad American leaders to do something bad to

Pakistan. This is in stark contrast to Indian

journalists appearing in talk shows broadcast in

India and Pakistan, where they talk about the lack

of evidence against Usamah and the need for the

USA to exercise restraint. ``Baghal may chakoo, Mun

pay Ram Ram?`` With the Mun in India and the Baghal

in DC?

I think the contrast between how educated

Americans and educated Indians are handling all

this, truely demonstrated the difference between

Civilizations.

By the way Hindu shops in Chicagos have been

attacked, Sikhs have been beaten up, and even a

Lebanese Church in Australia was set alight.

Hindus are playing with fire. Westerns see this as

a matter of race rather than religion.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 I continue to be amazed at Internet Gladiators

like RSaxena who wax so courageous about ``kicking

ass`` in electronic forums but who are such

wimpering cowards in the physical world. What a

split personality!

Colin Powel and Dick Chaney visited Mujahideen

camps many times and distributed sweets among and

patted the heads of the nine and ten year old

orphan children of the Mujahideen. Today these

nine and ten year olds have grown into the Taliban.

They do not equate Jehad with terrorism just like

they did not equate the Undertakers of Jehad

(otherwise known as the Mujahideen) with Terrorism.

Freedom fighers of Kashmir and Palestine are not

terrorists. Just like the freedom fighters of the

American Revolution and the French Revolution are

not terrorists.

THere is a grave, grave threat which is also a

tremendous opportunity in front of Pakistan - to

become a premier state fighting terrorism globally.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 The USA`s threat perceptions and priorities have

now changed. With the threat perception from China

and Russia and the importance of economics

becoming less comparatively and the threat

perception from terrorism becoming more by a

couple of orders of magnitudes, existing alliances

and strategies will need to be reviewed.

Countries like Pakistan, Jordan and Egypt which

can ally with the USA to battle terrorism become

much more important. Second, the importance of

countries will no longer be measured by GNP,

potential GNP, military power, etc. alone. Rather

the human dimension of large bodies of people

feeling violated and abused - such as those in

Palestine and Kashmir - will take on more importance.

Both these strategic changes provide strategic

opportunities for Pakistan.

I was appalled by the jingoistic and gleeful

gloating of some of the Indians on this forum in

trying to associate Pakistan with this tragedy.

They do not even care about the backlash against

Pakistanis here in the USA - where Pakistanis and

Indians are so friendly. And these are supposed to

be the educated, aware ones! I hope this lesson is

not lost on us Pakistanis down the years.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 This national tragedy, gruesome and gut-wrenching

as it is, does not overnight make the USA angelic and opposers of its policies demonic. The only demons are the perpetrators of this national tragedy and their ilk. But there are many immigrants, who value American values and the American way of life and who have chosen therefore to migrate to the USA, but who still are conscientious and pricipled opposers of certain elements of USA foreign policy. These opposers include white Americans, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and blacks. This does not mean that these opposers have overnight become demonic. Most people in the

world and most countries in the world object to

the Israeli repression of Palestinians, the Indian

repression of Kashmiris, and the Serbian

repression of Bosnians as evidenced by UN Security

Council and General Assembly resolutions. Emotions

are still raw due to the enormity of the tragedy

but that does not mean we now condemn the

Palestinian, Kashmiri and Bosnian causes - those

people have sustained unbridled violence and

genocide since decades. One is against all crimes

against humanity - the WTC and Pentagon attacks as

well as the rest.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 Watched the press conference given by the White

House Spokesperson and in particular the question

about Osamah-Taliban-Pakistan asked by the Indian

journalist (and the rebuff by the spokesman).

Do such Indians have no soul? Seems like the glee

of those celebrating Palestinians in the West Bank

is exceeded only by the joy of the Indians. It

seems they are going around these days with a

smile on their face.

Breaking News: September 11, 2001 The happenings of yesterday were shocking in their

magnitude and brutality and one hopes that the

true perpetrators will be identified and punished.

This is a crime against humanity which has

received its due attention, but there is another

imminent crime against humanity which needs some

attention too.

And that is the probable targeting of Muslims in

the USA on the basis of an unproven suspicion that

Muslims were beind this tragedy. In 1995, over two

hundred Muslims were reported hurt in attacks all

over the USA in the aftermath of the Oklahoma

bombing. So one is bracing oneself. But here are

some thoughts in the meanwhile.

1. All the emails, not to mention the television

commentary, say we have to punish Osamah and the

Taliban and the afterthought is .. if he is

guilty. What happened to one of the slivers of

civilization we hold on to, when condeming

barbarians the world over, of ``innocent until

proven guilty.`` Is some circumstantial evidence

enough for this witch hunt? Is the sophistication

level of Osamah or whatever Palestinian

organization that much more than the perpetrators

of Oklahoma or the assains of Kennedy? We heard

about several conversations from people on the

hijacked plane to relatives on the ground. Why was

there no mention of ``foreign`` or ``Arab``? The only

time race is not strongly mentioned in a crime in

the USA is if the perpetrators are white - because

they are the norm in the USA and do not stand out?

Is it not fair to atleast mention the possibility

of a local white American organization behing

behind this? Does the USA not have its own share

of nuts?

2. In the Oklahoma Bombing aftermath, gangs

started beating up Muslims on a mere suspicion. In

Palestine, civilians have been killed by Israelis

with American made helicopters and tanks since a

guarter of a century. Can then one not expect

those people to also harbour frustration and anger

which came out in a very unfeeling and

unimaginable way at this time. Let us not demonize

anyone - that is the beginning of intolerance and

violence.

3. Which then brings one to some of the Indians on

this post. Can they not even spare this moment to

heap opportunistic, self-righteous and almost

gleeful invectitude on Pakistanis? I find the

propensity of some Indians to subscribe to their

state propoganda to be disconcerting - whether it

is in their support to block PTV transmissions and

access to Dawn by their biggest ISP during Kargil,

or it is in their repsonse to their top

journalists being wowed by Musharraf in Delhi. Or

it is the death threats Kanwal Rekhi received when

he set up TIE centers in Lahore and Karachi.

Yesterdays events have not overnight made the USA

perfect and the critics of its policies - locals,

WASPS, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, foreigners - the

forces of darkness. The only forces of darkness

are the perpetrators of yesterday`s genocide and

thier ilk. There are people who oppose India`s

subjugation of Kashmir, or Israel`s subjugation of

Palestine as a matter of principle. These people

constitute the large number of nations of this

world as witnessed by votes against Israel and

India in Security Council and General Assembly

resolutions. The perpetrators of yesterdays crimes

need to be identified correctly and punished. But

also the use of force to dehumanize and violate

weak minorities needs to be condemned.

General Musharraf has banned two suspected

terrorist organizations in Pakistan and started a

nation wide de-weaponization campaign. A month ago

he openly warned all religous organizations

against any terrorist or illegal inclinations

right in the middle of their annual convention. He

has mandated that one third of all elected

representatives be women, the press is free and

nobody has accused him of corrpution - publicly or

privately. All the liberal modern journalists

support him. So that is where his mindset is.

I am sure he will extend full support to the USA,

if at all this is needed. This incident could

actually make Pakistan much more important as an

ally because of it can help in battling terrorism

and because the USA`s threat perception of

terroism has suddently risen by a couple of orders

of magnitude while the threat perception from

China or Russie has become commensurately less.

THe USA has fulfilled the dreams and aspirations

of many immigrants and we all feel the pain -

regardless of religion or race or national origin.

Refusing the Sitara-I-Imtiaz While I am not a physicist and cannot evaluate Dr. Parvez Hoodhboy`s contribution as researcher and teacher, I do believe his social commentary is good. I am fan of his model of intellectual advance vs. obscurantism in Islamic history.

But I do not agree with his rejection of the Sitara-e-Imtiaz award and the various reasons given by him to this end. First of all he is an avid (and important) critic of the establishment and the fact that the establishment wanted to give him a medal without (one can safely assume) any political manuevering on his part or at his behest shows that some heads are screwed right in the establishment. Such initiative on the establishment`s part should therefore be applauded rather than embarrased. Second, in the geopolitical environment of today most wars are covert rather than overt, and over the last three decades our generals have shown considerable success in the planning and execution of military action in the Afghan War against the Soviets, the Taliban War against the Northern Alliance, and the Kargil War. Now I do believe that Pakistan`s Taliban policy was illadvised and alienated several neighbours and friends. Also the Kargil War was ill-advised and reduced Pakistan`s credibility - most importantly with China. War certainly is diplomacy through other means. But the diplomatic impact of martial success is outside the scope of the conduct of war itself and is the realm of politicans or martial law adminstrators. Supposedly neutral observers on media like CNN have said that Pakistan is a third world country with a first world army and American generals have said that ``any of their generals could be generals in our Army.`` So let us recognize the merit and the success, however covert, of Pakistani generals and not begrudge the fruit salad/medals. Thirdly, as he is a scientist, one can understand Dr. Hoodhboy`s predilection and preference for standardized, quantified and visible criteria. However, the realm of medal award is not that of natural sciences - and specially not in the land of feeling and religion and spirituality that is the East. At best the craft of medal award is a social science and at worst the normative exercise of public relationing. Whatever the case might be, the paradigm of structure and quantification is suited to natural science; research papers, citations, patents and breakthroughs apply to the award of medals in the realm of natural science. The Sitara-e-Imtiaz is a national medal which recognizes national service rather than furthering the bounds of human knowledge. It was recognition from a nation that Dr. hoodhboy had made proud. I think he took an ill-advised action.

Bigotry, Racism and American Media Re: pennathur #92

I take the smashing of idols with hammers from Nietsche rather than Jewish scripture and in particular from ``The Twilight of the Idols.`` I think it is a powerful metaphor. Second, regarding smashing my own idols of ``ignorance and prejudice`` please do enlighten me in what these might be and I`ll join you in smashing them.

Re: RSaxena #89 and Rdesikan #87

There are two different things under discussion here. Let us delineate them: The first is justice and right and wrong. The second is perception and realpolitik. Without a doubt, India receives much more USA attention today because it has a better economy with more potential. India has also managed to manipulate media perception much better than Pakistan. Therefore India is in a much stronger position with respect to Kashmir. However, India has been unjust and cruel in dealing with Kashmir and Pakistan. It has been on the wrong side of morality and justice. I think any reasonable, educated and open minded individual - India or otherwise - will share these views.

India has aided and abetted terrorism in Sri Lanka, East Pakistan, and Pakistan. Today if you visit Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan or Sri Lanka - you will clearly and unambigiguously see the ground swell of resentment against India. The Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka are some of the most vicious terrorists.

A final point is the self righteous attitude of some Indians. Instead of acknowledging that they play the game of real politik and ``terrorism`` as much as and as well as the other guy, they create this hypocritical high ground and end up believing passionately in this mirage themselves.

Investments or whatever, I firmly believe this double talk and injustice will catch up.

Bigotry, Racism and American Media Re: RSaxena

Your anger seems to be draining you of any sense: You seem to ignore the fact that the majority of the world, as represented in quantitative and recorded UN resolutions, has sided with the Muslim World in all the conflicts mentioned in my last email. Second, only an anger and bigotry-blinded oberver could believe that 17 US Representatives writing such a high intensity letter on an issue which still remains so peripheral in the US political landscape is an inane event. Add this to the fact that the largest Church denomination in the USA - the Southern Baptists - have advised their 40,000 churches that Hinduism is inimical to Christianity. What goes around comes around, sooner or later these self righteous proclamations - these calling a nuclear explosion the ``Smiling Buddha`` and ``Peaceful`` - gotta catch up.

Talking about bloody borders et al, note two facts which I wish were discussed more and known more in the Western media:

1. No developing country has had more armed conflict with its neighbours, since World War II, than India.

2.No country, developing or otherwise, has used force to subjugate more internal secessionary movements than India.

The idea is to take the hammer of truth and break the false idols - good or demonized - created by the media.

Bigotry, Racism and American Media Having just read the article and the replies, first of all I feel very good about the polite and measured response to RSaxena`s inciting and misanthropic original email.

I personally think that Huntington`s ``Civilizations`` are a good model of the World today. Huntington of course also says that Islam`s borders are bloody. But is this because of an intrinsic war-mongering among Muslims or because of repression by external bordering states?

The Russians in Chechnya, the Serbs in Bosnia, the Indians in Kashmir and the Israelis in Palestine have been widely condemned for using superior state forces to repress and brutalize Muslim civilians. In the case of Bosnia and Chehnya, the West has sided with Islam also.

In the case of Israel, the whole world has condemned Israel as late as the recent 92-6 General Assembly vote. In the case of India, Security Council and General Assembly resolutions have called for a plebiscite and two months ago seventeen US Representatives have written a letter asking President Clinton to declare India a terrorist state for state-sponsored, systematic genocide of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians.

Facing overwhelming superiority in conventional arms and repression and genocide, some Muslims, specially those who have personally suffered, have chosen to react in the only way they can - through what is termed as ``terrorism.`` Now Islam unequivocally condemns the use of indiscriminate violence against civilians. There are no two thoughts about that. The ``terrorism`` of some individuals and organizations against state terrorism cannot be attributed to Islam but to an aggressive reaction of individual humans against personal and group brutalization.

If Westerners perceived that they were similarly being brutalized and had no recourse, we would see the same reaction. We saw this in the destruction by the USA of the Sudan Cereal factory without a declaration of war. In the case of Israel we have seen some extreme terrorism against Palestinians in the massacres in the Shatila and Sabra refugee camps for example. Similarly if Hindus occupied a country other than India where they perceived that they were being brutalized by an external force, then we would see a similar reaction by Hindus. In fact, though the situation is somewhat different and more complex, we have been seeing it in some of the most extreme terrorism by Tamil Hindus in Sri Lanka.

The United States as a military, cultural and economic superpower needs to exercise moral leadership also and take a strong and unequivocal stand against injustice and brutality against weak civilian populations - be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Hindu. The first step in reaching this goal is to be objective and fair and not demonize any people. An objective assessment of any of these clashes, bereft of real politic and based on moral leadership, will clearly show who the real perpetrator of terrorism and injustice is and who is largely hyped to be so. The next step would be to use global moral leadership to solve the root causes of the conflicts in a just manner.

Shut Up, He Explained I came aross the figure of 1:7 VC backed companies succeeding. John gives the figures of 1:10. Are the odds worsening?

Second, the fact that auto and airplane manuf etc. have few competitors standing, does not mean that the shareholders of acquired companies,that no longer stand, did not make a great return on investment when they sold out.

Advertise! You fools! Re: Kris # 102

Yusuf is the Arabisized version of Joseph, while Youhana was a Arab Christian figure of old. YOu will note that many Coptic CHristians use Arabic versions of Christian names also.

Yusuf Youhana crosses himself on international television after every century.

How can you say he or other Christians are trying to hide their religion and therefore do not use Christian names? You make no sense.