Linguistic Imperialism
Sources...

www.ethnologue.com
CIA World FACtbook
www.wikipedia.com

The information I posted is listed on a number of websites - Most figures have a margin of +- 1Million, Nonthless a thorough cross reference between the three sites would give one some credible figures. Wikipedia has a nice anthology on several languages.

Linguistic Imperialism Reply HP #116

“Unfortunately I have to disagree with your above assertion. Linguistically – Punjabi is not a distinct language unless you refer to the Gurmukhi script based Punjabi developed by the Sikhs.I think that is a loaded statement and probably reflects your inclination to disparage other Pakistani languages.”

There is nothing disparaging in my statements that demeans any of the Pakistani regional languages. Au contraire, languages bring forth a certain vitality that enriches an entire society. The statement is uncalled for and is based on pure conjecture on your part.

“Linguistically- becomes a vague term when we know that pretty much all north Indian languages are related to each other in many different ways and that is the result of a continued migration within and from outside in India for centuries. “

Linguistics is an actually academic discipline which incidentally was attributed to an Indian named panini. The uses certain classification scheme based on linguistic attributes that it consigns to as languages or dialects. All Pakistani languages , Kashmiri, Sindhi, Baluchi, and Pashto and Urdu are classified as languages. Punjabi ( Western) is classified as a dialect and not a language because it does not have a distinctive alphabet and consequently no prose. It is primarily a colloquial language and is hence labeled a dialect.
You may disagree with this assignment for sentimental reasons but that does not make linguistics a bogus discipline.



“Gurmukhi script is a recent phenomenon. It was there but never really had any patronage until the partition.”

Gurmukhi implies spoken languages of the Gurus – i.e. the Sikhs claim that Guru Nanak compiled his works in the language and that was late 15th early 16th century. Actually the Sikh holy book dating back some 4-5 centuries is written in the same language. Ranjit Singh, whose court language was Persian primarily because the Durrani, Safavid and the remnants of the Mughal kingdoms all had Persian as their official languages. It is highly doubtful that Ranjit Singh would deliberatly alienate his political base ie the khalsa by discouraging the use of Gurmukhi. It is like stating the Arabs accompanying Mohammed bin Qasim adopted the Sindhi language and abandoned Arabic.


“It seems to me that you take fancy in putting a Marxist interpretation of history forward. That to me is not the only way to explore the vagaries of cultures. It is too black and white and often Marxist construct ignores many other factors in favor of purely economics based frames. “

Marxist ideology states that economics enjoys the centrality in all things social, moral and artistic. All I had stated was that economics was the prime motivator for the spread of Urdu in the army cantonments and subsequently in the petty bourgeois. That does not make it a Marxist interpretation.- I think you are confusing economic underpinnings primarily as Marxist ideology. It is precisely for that very same reason that the majority of Punjabi speaking people are adopting Urdu as their first language and not their love for Ghalib or Faiz. If you take it a bit further the very same reason applies to the rampant adoption of English in the urban settings of Pakistan not the popularity of the bard in the subcontinent.

“Coming back to Urdu, It developed in the urban center of Northern India and I have no beef with that. But it was never the language of people at large like Hindi is in India and Punjabi is in Pakistan. “

I did some research on this and I found some interesting numbers – There are about 104 million speakers of Punjabi in the world, About 62 million of which are in West Punjab, 28 million or so speak Gurmukhi dialects, and an additional 14 million speak Saraiki.

Contrasting that with Urdu I found that Urdu is claimed by about 62 million people as their native language, about 48-50 million in India, and about 12-13 million in Pakistan, and if you add the non native speakers primarily in Pakistan – the numbers go up to 104 million. I also looked at Turkish – which has some 60 million Native speakers and some 75 million total speakers of the language and Persian with 57 million native speakers and 110 million total speakers of that language. So Urdu does quite well in commanding a large following of native speakers.

Hindi language on the other hand claims to have 180 Million Native speakers and numbers swell to 480 million speakers when adding non-native speakers - almost 50% of the population of India.

Linguistic Imperialism #43 by HP

“Your claim that “It is ironic that most Pakistanis believe Hindi to be a older language than Urdu.” is a little out of place. “Urdu is not the first language of most of the Pakistanis and they don’t have to know a lot about Urdu`s history.”

Unfortunately I have to disagree with your above assertion. Linguistically – Punjabi is not a distinct language unless you refer to the Gurmukhi script based Punjabi developed by the Sikhs. Consequently if Punjabi is a dialect of Hindustani – it explains two things – the rapid proliferation of Urdu in the petty bourgeois is merely a switching of Hindustani dialects between Punjabi and Urdu. ( actually the wikpedia article that you referred to also attests to the same) . Since roughly 56 % of the population is in the Punjab + 10-12% urban urdu speakers. It constitutes the majority as Hindustani speakers – The Other languages namely Kashmiri, pushtu, Baluchi , Sindhi and Marwari are all distinct languages. ( some claim that marwari – a derivative of Rajasthani is also a dialect of Hindustani) …Moreover Urdu enjoys formal patronage of the ruling establishment and therefore is formally taught in the classrooms in Pakistan. All the more reason that Pakistanis should have a better understanding of their lingua franca.

On the second note I stand corrected ….. Actually Urdu writings originated with Ameer Khusrau in Delhi in the form of Hindvi ((1253-1325 CE),- It gained mass popularity in the Bahmani kingdoms in the Deccan primarily because etc Bahmani’s gave official patronage to Urdu to distinguish their court languages from Persian which was the language of the Delhi Sultanate.

By the Advent of the Mughal Empire ie the first battle of panipat – Urdu was firmly established in the urban petty bourgeois and became a commercial language. Persian was still the official language and the first language of the aristocracy. It was only during Akbar’s period that Urdu gained wider acceptance in the upper echelons of Mughal society.

Actually the center of Urdu learning moved from the Bahmani kingdoms to Lucknow where the Awadhi nawabs ( ie Lucknow) gave it official patronage and finally to Delhi where during the the early 1800’s one notices a rise of Urdu patronage in the official Delhi courts. After the Mutiny – Urdu found refuge in the Muslim kingdoms of Bhopal and Hyderabad wherein official patronage kept it alive until the advent of Aligarh Muslim university and later Urdu prospered in the Muslim states until 1947. Notably even though Urdu had gained widespread popularity – Persian was still taught as an aristocratic language in the upper echelons of Muslim society well into the early part of the 20th century. Urdu was an urban language of the petty bourgeois – not necessarily an aristocratic one as is your assertion.

Interestingly even in the Lahore, which was a Mughal capital during Jehangir’s period, the aristocracy was Persian, Afghan and Turkish- consequently urdu was well established as a commercial language. It was only during the period of the Sikhs where Ranjit Singh decapitated the existing Muslim aristocratic oligarchy and replaced it with Sikh and more compliant rural Muslim counterparts that Gurmukhi Punjabi gained prominence in Lahore. Even then, remnants of the old aristocracy used the Arabic/Persian script to keep their heritage alive – which gradually reasserted itself after the demise of the Sikhs. Iqbal, perhaps one of the more notable Urdu poet of the 20th century did not go to the centers of Urdu in Lucknow or Delhi to gain his mastery of the urdu and Persian languages, his training was indigenous to Lahore.


“Fort Williams college in Calcutta did lots of work in Indian languages.
Both modern Urdu and Hindi owe a lot to the academic interest British had in learning and preserving these two languages.”


The English were interested in the languages not primarily for scholarly research – their policy was also based of maintaining their hold on the erstwhile empire. The Benaras Hindu university and the Aligarh Muslim university started out as segregated institutions for a reason. Actually Bhartendu Harischander;’s official patronage in developing a formalized Hindu language based on Sanskrit grammar was to balance out the hegemony enjoyed by Urdu for the past 500 years. It is this toppling of the apple cart by the British which gives them a paradoxical reputation by their subjugated subjects. Whereas the Muslims of the Punjab hailed the British as enlightened saviors – because the British freed them from the domination of the Sikhs…the Muslims of Bengal and the United Provinces cursed the very same Britishers for indiscriminate repression of the populace.

Linguistic Imperialism It is ironic that most Pakistanis believe Hindi to be a older language than Urdu. The Local dialect often called Hindustani or khadiboli has been in existence for a millennium or more. It was not a formal language but a colloquial one. It had neither a written script nor formal grammar. Hindustani eventually had multiple dialects – Brajbhasha ( spoken around Delhi ), Awadhi spoken in southern UP and Bihar and Punjabi spoken in the North Eastern part of the country. Punjabi in the Eastern provinces was formalized into a language using the the Gurmukhi script by the Sikhs. Western Punjabi remained colloquial with a Arabic/Urdu script.

Urdu on the other hand emerged in the Muslim Bahmani kingdoms of Deccan, as language of the army ( the word Urdu is the Turkish word for Army) – in order to form a more cohesive form of communication between the Turks, Afghans, Persians and other assorted nationalities that formed the bulk of their armies. Urdu saw its emergence as a formal language during the period of Ameer Khusro Dehlavi – the renowned poet and other literati of the period. He wrote his couplets in a language he called Hindvi – in a Persian script which formed the basis of the urdu language. It was still second only to Persian which was the official language of the land, Nonetheless it gained a mass following particularly among the urban bourgeois from Lahore to Patna. Subsequent to the British Annexation of India Urdu became synonymous with urban Muslims of India and spread from Madras to Peshawar.


Formal Hindi as we know it became a language fairly recently in the late 19th century wherein Hindustani was formalized into Hindi utilizing the Devanagari script with heavy derivations from Sanskrit. It was actually developed under British Patronage of the Fort William College Calcutta in collaboration with a Hindu scholar named Bhartendu Harishchander.

The two nation schism ultimately came about in the late 1890’s when the British Govt decided to replace Persian as the second official language with Hindi. This caused dissention among the Muslims and led two scholars from Aligarh Mohsin ul Mulk and Viqar ul Mulk to form the Muslim League under the patronage of the Nawab of Dacca to promote Urdu as an alternative to Hindi as the second official language. The rest we know as history….

ISNA Thugs The writer has strong grievances against ISNA and some very valid concerns - however her demeanor is more vindictive than constructive. Ironically, it is similar to the autocratic judgmental ``Older generation`` that the writer is attempting to criticize.

Certain greviances seem genuine and need to be investigated

1. Lack on inclusion of the shia community .
2. Apparent Lack of participation or inclusion of the African- Amerrican Muslims
3. Lack of leadership positions for women in the organization......

Th writer is also very irrespoinsible and shall I say juvenile in insenuating a link between ISNA which is a social and religious organization to terrorism and terorist organizations without any credible proof. It reflects very poorly on the her judgement.

As for the alleged link between Saudi money and ISNA it is ironic that witha 6 million strong muslim communtity with a per capita say of about 30K amounts to a GDP of US$180B - ISNA still has to depend on handouts to the saudis. Sadly this statistic true across all muslim communities in the USA - perhaps the most affluent in the world, mosques and othere islamic organizations are run on the support of 5%-10% of the membership - with the rest 85% being freeloaders. That is an indictment on the majority
of Muslim community in the US. Consequently he who contributes also has influence in the running of the organization - This is a universal economic principle....

As for the other grievances such as mixed gender prayer halls etc etc - they are subject to religious intepretations and are highly subjective from community to community - The author treats this issue in a machiavallian fashion to equate it with gender discrimination - which is just plain baloney.

As for other issues such as manhandling people, ISNA being an organization for people to find prospective marriage partners - hey more power to them. The muslim general population in the mosques tends to be rude, rowdy, nosiy and often times unreasonable- consequently larger organizations have to resort to a professional security staff. I donot condone their heavy handed tactics but people including the generation born and bred in the US often retain their parents prejudices, narow-mindedness and bigotry albeit in a more subtle fashion. After all the apple does not fall far from the tree.

Husain Haqqani calls for Pakistan’s Acceptance of Global Realities
Mr haqqani has impeccable credentials a political commentator. his ideas have strong merits and social commentary is often on the mark - Unfortunately Mr haqqani has also made a profession out of writing books and commentary which pander to his audience`s worst fears... A mullah led military in Pakistan that is the West`s worst nightmare - Although the situation is plausible its is also extremely unlikely - given the myopic stupidity
of the pakistani mullahs and equally fascistict tendencies of the Pakistani military. IN the meantime, Mr haqqani, like any hustler makes a quick buck selling books that exacerbate the political divide and inflame idiotic passions on both sides.

After All Mr haqqani is just trying to make a fast buck, like any other entreprenuer, without thought to the ramifications of his actions....It reminds me of the two local melas held here last week commerating their respective national days in the bay area ......

While the indian community in addition to entertainment had several stalls catering to food and dress, it also had booths that promoted charity, free medical and legal help to the poor in the local community, booths of asra and domestic violence, us companies hiring for india, etetc ... topics that are relevant to the community....

In stark contrast, the Pakistani melas were busy promoting eating samosas and biryani and dancing to the beat of balay balay.....

Much like most Pakistani expatriates, Mr haqqani surely falls in the latter lot because as a member of the democratically elected Bhuttoo govt - his record is as dismal as those of his predecessors- and his very valid criticism of the Pakistan and pakistani people was very subdued whilst in power...

Fighting Poverty in Pakistan As so many posters have iterated over and over again that GDP growth - althought it does contribute to the bottom line - its not the only requisite for poverty alleviation...Strengthening of the social institutions is equally if not more important.

GDP growth requires a freer market economy - free from the shakles of Govt beauracracy - a fact that is not yet accomplished by the GOvt at present...

Secondly it requires strong instituitions of remedial recourse ie a strong judiciary - which the present Govt has actualy weakened

Also civil security ie- the police force needs to be decentralized- and held locally accountable in the metropolitan areas - a task in which the army is an actual impediment
because a weak police ensures a stronger army strangehold. Moreover the paindoo siblings of the army generals are often found in the police forces - thereby creating a patronage system for the army families.....


Sooner or later the GDP growth will also slow down because of the aforementioned reasons...

Social spending ie - infracstructure and most importantly human resource development is an essential component of GDP growth. GDP growth requires access to Capital - which an efficient Banking system and a stable macroeconomic polices can provide , - raw materials - both for agriculture or industrial sector - which requires a well developed infrastructure to reduce transaction costs - and a skilled labor force - which is in short supply - because of an archaic educational infrastructure.... and last of all a multi-faceted intelligensia which is able to to generate ideas on the basis on which both GDP growth and social development can be on par - The last component is completely missing in the Pakistani body politic - There are no well developed institutions that nurture economic or social policy goals in pakistan. Part of it is cultural - and the values the culture espouses - Its is inherently tribal - consequently broad based thinking does not exist - and the value system tends to produce technical coolies ( you need not go to Pakistan to see this - of the 1.5 M Pakistani emigres to North America , many with advanced technical qualifications ( primarily physicians and engineers) - a cohesive broad based vision does not exist - even in specfic disciplines , for a variety of reasons, -this intellectual complacency can easily be contrasted with emigre populations of both the INdians as well as the jewish communities) - consequently leadership in soci-economic policies is primarily based on political loyalties as opposed to intellectual capital. Consequently debates revolve around abdicating responsibility and a messianic belief of a Mehdi - be it MUsharraf or Shaukat Aziz to resolve all issues....

A Good Reason To Cheer
It was quite suprising to note that the majority of posters on this particular interact ( many of them longtime posters) holds views which justify ethnic/religious cleansing and or support of mass murders like Mr Modi. Arguments such such as rabid nationalism and neo fascist religious intolerance - is indicative that mere education qualifications hardly make an individual into a human being. It is refreshing to see that there are many Indians who also reject such rabid tendencies - but unfotunately it seems they are in the minority.

If one peels off this thin veneer of civility - which is perhaps a mere act of wordplay - these posters are virtually indistinguishable from the taliban or the Neo-Nazi`s in the US - a scary thought for all of us who reside on this planet.

The world is hardly immune from fascists and nationalists - wherein even mature democracies have elected individuals responsible for sensless wars and immeasurable human carnage - but justifying these acts can hardly be considered civilized debate - perhaps this insenstivity to human feelings thoughts and emotions and sufferings - relegate these individuals to a lower life form in the evolutionary scale.

As always, there is something to hope for, I am assuming since many of the posters are based in the US or the West, - the education system here will impart a better set of values in their children than their parents did for them- thereby enabling their progeny to evolve to a higher strata in the evolution of home-sapiens

The Troubled History of Jews One possible reason the Jews were not a very popular people was their fiercely independent streak which constantly led them into conflict ( often divinely reinforced) - with the Egyptians, the philistines ( not to be confused with the palestinians), the assyrians, the Babylonians, The Persians ( the story of ruth), and later on with the Greeks ( alexander brutally supressed them) and with the Romans who finally dispersed them often forcibly as slaves.....

The Jewish people always had a very strong intellectual tradition ( something the Muslims need to emulate ) and that combined with a propensity to trade and be involved in monetary flows and transaction - concentrated wealth and power in their hands in a far greater proportion to their population . This combined with a strong preservation instinct to preserve their distinct cultural, linguistic and religious identity often set them apart from the native population.....

The Jewish population has always been very strong in terms of monetary lending and finance ( a strong propensity to save) - and were the informal bankers and money lenders from posterity - Consequently they were relatively affluent - which the general population associated with ``usury`` and stories of Jesus trying to get rid of the money lenders`s in the Temple, medieval shakepearean plays about shylock, the prophet`s ban on ``usury in Medina... , and the strong influence of the rothschilds and other Jewish bankers in the european economy - often made them unpopular ....... The Pathans association with moneylending in the subcontinent has also been used as a link as one of the lost jewish tribes - holds little water since the pathans are a non-semitic people unlike the jewish people......

just some thoughts.......

The Troubled History of Jews re:#23

Mantolives writes...

First of all the Christian Bible is both the old testament and the new testament .... >the ``Torah`` only forms a small part of the Old testament... Old testament contains several >other books that precede and follow Moses and Torah... to name a few... Psalms of >David, Book of Genesis, Book Macabees, Book Job etc...

According to Jewish theologians the Torah ( the Law) refers to the 5 books of Moses

1. genesis
2. Exodus
3. LEviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deutronimy

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But the `` written Torah`` - ie the book found in synogues consists both the of Torah ( the 5 book of moses) + Nevi`m ( the story of the prohets - Joshua, Judges Samuel etc etc) + Kethuvim ( Pslams+ proverbs+ Job etc etc) the last being writings of the Jewish politicans ie Saul, David, Solomon etc etc ( The Jews dont consider them as prophets buts as kings)

So the ``written Torah`` = ``old testament`` of the bible is a correct assesment...... Consequently the Torah is used to refer both to the 5 books of Moses as well as The ``written Torah`` which is essentially the Old Testament.


In essence the Old testament is ``the Collected works of Hebrew Prophets``

Similarly... the New testament has contribution from several different writers....

Torah by contrast was a book of laws... the confusion that is created is when one equates the ``Bible`` with the ``Quran``...

An Islamic equivalent of Bible will be: Quran + all books of Hadis + Sayings of the 4 >caliphs + sayings of 10 favorite companions + the fiqhs of the 5 jurists

I think the above is an incorrect statement .....

The Torah = Quran + Hadith + Sayings of the 4 caliphs ..... is probably a more accurate description......

The Jew`s have an additional book called the ``Oral Torah`` - also Known as The Talmund (in written from) which would be more like the fiqhs of the 5 jurists......

In addition the heve the books of the midrashim - which equate to stories of the Jewish tradition which is equivalent to sayings of the companions of the prophets .......

Hope that clarifies things........

The Troubled History of Jews One possible reason the Jews were not a very popular people was their fiercely independent streak which constantly led them into conflict ( often divinely reinforced) - with the Egyptians, the philistines ( not to be confused with the palestinians), the assyrians, the Babylonians, The Persians ( the story of ruth), and later on with the Greeks ( alexander brutally supressed them) and with the Romans who finally dispersed them often forcibly as slaves.....

The Jewish people always had a very strong intellectual tradition ( something the Muslims need to emulate ) and that combined with a propensity to trade and be involved in monetary flows and transaction - concentrated wealth and power in their hands in a far greater proportion to their population . This combined with a strong preservation instinct to preserve their distinct cultural, linguistic and religious identity often set them apart from the native population.....

The Jewish population has always been very strong in terms of monetary lending and finance ( a strong propensity to save) - and were the informal bankers and money lenders from posterity - Consequently they were relatively affluent - which the general population associated with ``usury`` and stories of Jesus trying to get rid of the money lenders`s in the Temple, medieval shakepearean plays about shylock, the prophet`s ban on ``usury in Medina... , and the strong influence of the rothschilds and other Jewish bankers in the european economy - often made them unpopular ....... The Pathans association with moneylending in the subcontinent has also been used as a link as one of the lost jewish tribes - holds little water since the pathans are a non-semitic people unlike the jewish people......

just some thoughts.......

Indian Womb, Pakistani Soil
As an earlier poster pointed out .. this is a case of an over zealous technocrat giving the couple a hard time over a technicality.... Actually the MP of the district is also trying to help them out... Besides one must remeber this Mardan - Mardan is like Meghalaya of Pakistan - narrow parochial mindsets.... probably the same thing would have happened if the guy had married a girl from Lahore or Karachi.... outside the tribe etc etc.....

Generally the Pakistanis are a very accomodating people ... atleast 500K-1 million Bangladeshi`s reside in Karachi without fear of the Pakistani Immigration authorities and it is filled with thousands of Afghans.... hundreds of Arabs and Persians.....- Same situation applies in Islamabad as well....

But then again when it comes to marriage - outside the confines of cosmopolitan centers of Karachi or Islamabad or Lahore - people are exremely clannish and tribal - A jat punjabi wont marry an rajput will not marry an Arain will not marry a kHokhar and this is just the Punjabis..... - the Pathans have the Afridis and the ACkazais and orakzais etc etc etc....The Mohajirs and the sindhis and the Baluchis and the kashmiris are equally clannish

In that regard Pakistani`s are hardly different from the caste-ridden Indian society that they relish in deriding.....

I feel sorry for the poor couple for applying for citizenship - they should have kept mum and enjoyed life.....

Indian Womb, Pakistani Soil
that reminds me of a true anecdote....

Now that the visa regime is open between India and Pakistan -visas are relatively easily obtainable in Islamabad and Delhi .......

An acquaintaince of mine recently applied for a visa for India ( from San Francisco) - he was a US citizen ( over 20 yrs in the US) with several past trips to India - but was a former PAkistani Ironically the same guy got the visa from the same consulate on a Pakistani passport when tensions between India Pakistan were fairly high in the 90`s....

He planned to marry an Indian girl who was settled in the Middle East.. The RSS Psycho who was processing his case refused his visa on grounds of security concerns.... Eventually they found a third country to get married in ,.........

Now the guy processing this case was an Indian Foreign Service officer who refused a guy visa ( he was accompanied by his parents) .....on security concerns like a US Citizen is going to blow up the garbage dumps of Bombay,,,,,,,

One can easily imagine a govt nut case in Mardan ( probably a religious psycho) who felt that the honor of his tribe was at stake if he had granted citizenship to the hapless spouse......

Most Govt officers in South Asian countries have an EQ of 50 and an IQ of maybe 90....

Universities As Brand Names Part of the Pakistani mindset is that a degree entitles you to a job or a position - Consequently a degree from a prestigious institution should guarntee you a better job or a better position - Normally this is held true in countries dominated by the government culture ie ROI is never computed in evaluating an individual`s worth - rather it is
connections, impressions etc etc etc.....

In a free market economy results matter - and results matter on a ongoing basis - one is assessed based on one`s recent contributions to the bottom line not what one has accomplished in academia.... - Consequently there is great upward mobility for those who produce results .... On an average basis, the caliber of a Standford graduate is generally better ( not necessarily all the time ) than that of state uniuversity graduate... since the standford graduate had a more rigorous ciricullum, more facilities & resources and intense competition and a network of better accomplished individuals...... - Nonetheless once they enter industry they are on par ( a stanford vs a non stanford) in terms of resource availability and consequently it is up to their individual drive and resourcefulness and attitude ( thiis drives the above two) to succeed in their professional endeavors....

Therefore with an experienced individual accomplishments ( and to a certain degree networks) matter far more than academic accomplishments..... There is no value add in hiring a Stanford graduate if he produces less tha a state university graduate even if he is a fellow alumnus ..... People and companies are always attracted to star performers not star graduates.... and the two do not necessarily correlate.....

The bottom line to professional success is always a ``value add`` proposition - if one adds greater value to the tangible bottom line of an organization than he/she takes in -she/he will rise far ... if not you will end up in the garbage heap reardless of where you graduate from..... so the moral of the story is that better institutions give you a leg up competitively when entering the work force but the rest is up to you......

Who is a Muslim? Political correctness aside .....The mainstream recognition of what constitutes a Muslim is debatable ... Nonthless in the theological sense THe Ahmediyyas (INdo-Pak), The Bahais ( Iran and Israel), and the Druzes (Syria and Lebanon) or Farakhan based Nation of Islam (US) are all quasi Islamic offshoots - ( not recognized by mainstream Islam) because all of them donot believe in the finality of Muhammad as the last prophet - The Nation of Islam further deviates from Islamic dogma by incroporating Several Animistic African rituals......

Nonethless, this does not justify their whole sale persecution by the majority communities in their respective countries....Most of the aforementioned communties are generally better educated and more cohesive because of their minority status ..... the Parochial attitudes of Sub-continental Muslims towards these off-shoots is primarily
based on purtanical extremism .....

As for the ``fatwas`` declared by subcontinental ``mullahs`` against competing ``mullahs`` or aginst the shiities or Ismailis or the Bohras or sufis etc etc ... Thats is primarily hogwash from an Islamic doctrinal perspective as ascertained by most scholars ....

It is particularly ironic in the case of Pakistan - since the most vociferous proponets of Pakistan were not of the Sunni sects - Jinnah ( was an Ismaili Khoja- later isna ashrii), Liaquat Ali Khan ( shiite - not sure ) .... Iqbal ( his grandfather converetd to Ahmediyya - later his father reverted to mainstream Islam) , The Aga Khan ( Ismaili) , Zafrulla Khan ( hmediyya), Haroons ( shiite), Hidayatullah ( shiite) etc etc ......

Botox For Brains tahmed32 writes.....

soundmeister #5 but then...despite all our problems, things could be worse in pakistan - we could be Indians. Having to share the same country as specimen like shamsul (who is gujjubania masquerading as a pakistani).

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Thats very crass ...... when you owe the very existence of your country to a gujjubania name Jinnah :)