Know Your Enemy
We Pakistanis are an extreme people.......Consequently the much maligned mullahs ( usailing hailing from dirt poor backgrounds, products of orphanages and madrassas) employ the same incendiary rhetoric - that his adversary the- western educated ``mullah-hating`` or on the chowk ``Islamophobic``posters retort. They love to force their agendas ( wheter liberal or conservative) down the throat of the unassuming average Joe - who is at best trying survive in the Darwinian culture ( if you are not the predator then you must be the prey environment) ..
THe Mullah`s believe that performing gynamstics 5 times a day will absolve the world of all its sins in a perfectly utopian soicety - Conversely the liberal agenda is to abolish religon and walah we have xanadu...... Neither party is interested in the bringing civil behavior to society - and both indulge in the pillars that quaid spoke of - Korma-khori, haram-khori, zen-khori, .....( the mullah wants 4 wives, the western educated liberal visits Dubai - 3 times a year) and azmat-khori - ( the mullah derides the ferengi educated kafirs with the same zeal that the general surgeon derides the psychiatist, - reminders of our former ferengi masters)
In a society where staus-quo is encouraged and maintained - the salvation often lies....in moving to the extremes- sort of like a femi-nazi righting all the wrongs that her mother had to go through. Such in a culture where style is valued over substance.....facts are changed to match opinion.... and introspection is a synonym for lunacy.......
The Ironic thing is even when moved thousands of miles from the mother country - desis practice their ``culture``with unabashed chauvinism......
AS my grandma used to say ``zarf atay atay bhi chaar pidi lag jaate hain``- So its 50 years since independence - that`s 2 generations - and another 2 to go before I figure out if grandma was right.....( If I live long enough)
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Feb 11, 2004 03:13 pm
We Pakistanis are an extreme people.......Consequently the much maligned mullahs ( usailing hailing from dirt poor backgrounds, products of orphanages and madrassas) employ the same incendiary rhetoric - that his adversary the- western educated ``mullah-hating`` or on the chowk ``Islamophobic``posters retort. They love to force their agendas ( wheter liberal or conservative) down the throat of the unassuming average Joe - who is at best trying survive in the Darwinian culture ( if you are not the predator then you must be the prey environment) ..
THe Mullah`s believe that performing gynamstics 5 times a day will absolve the world of all its sins in a perfectly utopian soicety - Conversely the liberal agenda is to abolish religon and walah we have xanadu...... Neither party is interested in the bringing civil behavior to society - and both indulge in the pillars that quaid spoke of - Korma-khori, haram-khori, zen-khori, .....( the mullah wants 4 wives, the western educated liberal visits Dubai - 3 times a year) and azmat-khori - ( the mullah derides the ferengi educated kafirs with the same zeal that the general surgeon derides the psychiatist, - reminders of our former ferengi masters)
In a society where staus-quo is encouraged and maintained - the salvation often lies....in moving to the extremes- sort of like a femi-nazi righting all the wrongs that her mother had to go through. Such in a culture where style is valued over substance.....facts are changed to match opinion.... and introspection is a synonym for lunacy.......
The Ironic thing is even when moved thousands of miles from the mother country - desis practice their ``culture``with unabashed chauvinism......
AS my grandma used to say ``zarf atay atay bhi chaar pidi lag jaate hain``- So its 50 years since independence - that`s 2 generations - and another 2 to go before I figure out if grandma was right.....( If I live long enough)
A Case for Banning Polygamy
Romair has said it well.......
Another point - The ``Nikaah`` in Islam is a civil contract and the prospective bride can add any clause ( within the bounds of Islamic permissability) which include any monetary or other compensation or any other material restrictions. Consequently the bride can add clause stipulatling the Nikaah to be null and void if the husband decides to marry another woman`` This is perfectllyu legal under Islamic law........ That solves this phobia.....
Normally ( ``most men`` ) have a hard time dealing with one wife ..... one`s got to be a lunatic to be wanting more of the same....
The undedlying problem is not polygamy - but economic independence and personal choice for women ( which comes through education) and consequently makes them equal partners in society irrespective of the type of contratcs...... - and this has more to do with contract law than personal law.......
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Dec 4, 2003 08:44 am
RE:# 17.....Romair has said it well.......
Another point - The ``Nikaah`` in Islam is a civil contract and the prospective bride can add any clause ( within the bounds of Islamic permissability) which include any monetary or other compensation or any other material restrictions. Consequently the bride can add clause stipulatling the Nikaah to be null and void if the husband decides to marry another woman`` This is perfectllyu legal under Islamic law........ That solves this phobia.....
Normally ( ``most men`` ) have a hard time dealing with one wife ..... one`s got to be a lunatic to be wanting more of the same....
The undedlying problem is not polygamy - but economic independence and personal choice for women ( which comes through education) and consequently makes them equal partners in society irrespective of the type of contratcs...... - and this has more to do with contract law than personal law.......
Founding Mothers
I do apologise about the multiple posts - something wrong with my
browser configuration...
Re:mantolives........
Excitement is good ....pejoratives bad..... calling me a moron or an idiot hardly advances your argument.. ( are you sure you from Lahore - not Sheikhupura :)) Rather it shows exasperation on your part...... and detracts from the point that your are trying to make...
As for your sugra apa - I can hardly take your word for it -
1. I will confirm your Sugra story from credible sources ( preferbably published by somebody other than you or somebody related to you ) and will respond and issue retraction if necessary....
Let`s see what I have established .....
MAntolives wrote ...
``These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers``
1. The women you included were as dependent on their spouses/siblings/parental patronage as those you choose to exclude..... Now if you had stated that these were ``your`` preferential founding mothers... I would not be arguing about it .....But your basic premise does not hold any water.....
2. Now for your Ms Sugra- Apa , - lets us assume that you are right - I have nothing against her - but her inclusion in national leaders is bit far fetched - particularly if nobody but you and your immediate family members have heard of her .......
3. Shaista Ikramullah, Jahan Ara Shanawaz, Tassaduque Hussain - were relatively young in the 40`s and consequently emerged as the second generation of the league`s women leaders...... you ignored several others but we will let it pass....
4. Lady Haroon ( Ala Nusrat Khatoon) - who is described by you as an regional leader...was actually a national figure, along with with Fatima Jinnah and Rana Liaquat Ali.....formed the senior rung of the Women`s Muslim League leadership....
5. Your inclusion of Sugra-Apa ( a unknown) , Mumtaz shahnawaz ( Actually she was a writer - I am not sure whar her contributions to the movement were) , Fatima Begum - on par with the others is a bit unfair ..... thatis like trying to portray Crispus Attuckus ( the African-american who died in the Boston Massacare- and of course he did more than plant a flag ) on par with Hamilton , Washington and Jefferson as the founding fathers of the United states.....
Baring your teenage enthusiasm - I would suggest a little more research and little less emotion in your articles.... lest your beome known as a writer of fables ( a la Hans Christian Anderson or Aesop ) when you wanted to become Heroditus or Pliny the elder..
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 30, 2003 11:07 am
Re:sigalphI do apologise about the multiple posts - something wrong with my
browser configuration...
Re:mantolives........
Excitement is good ....pejoratives bad..... calling me a moron or an idiot hardly advances your argument.. ( are you sure you from Lahore - not Sheikhupura :)) Rather it shows exasperation on your part...... and detracts from the point that your are trying to make...
As for your sugra apa - I can hardly take your word for it -
1. I will confirm your Sugra story from credible sources ( preferbably published by somebody other than you or somebody related to you ) and will respond and issue retraction if necessary....
Let`s see what I have established .....
MAntolives wrote ...
``These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers``
1. The women you included were as dependent on their spouses/siblings/parental patronage as those you choose to exclude..... Now if you had stated that these were ``your`` preferential founding mothers... I would not be arguing about it .....But your basic premise does not hold any water.....
2. Now for your Ms Sugra- Apa , - lets us assume that you are right - I have nothing against her - but her inclusion in national leaders is bit far fetched - particularly if nobody but you and your immediate family members have heard of her .......
3. Shaista Ikramullah, Jahan Ara Shanawaz, Tassaduque Hussain - were relatively young in the 40`s and consequently emerged as the second generation of the league`s women leaders...... you ignored several others but we will let it pass....
4. Lady Haroon ( Ala Nusrat Khatoon) - who is described by you as an regional leader...was actually a national figure, along with with Fatima Jinnah and Rana Liaquat Ali.....formed the senior rung of the Women`s Muslim League leadership....
5. Your inclusion of Sugra-Apa ( a unknown) , Mumtaz shahnawaz ( Actually she was a writer - I am not sure whar her contributions to the movement were) , Fatima Begum - on par with the others is a bit unfair ..... thatis like trying to portray Crispus Attuckus ( the African-american who died in the Boston Massacare- and of course he did more than plant a flag ) on par with Hamilton , Washington and Jefferson as the founding fathers of the United states.....
Baring your teenage enthusiasm - I would suggest a little more research and little less emotion in your articles.... lest your beome known as a writer of fables ( a la Hans Christian Anderson or Aesop ) when you wanted to become Heroditus or Pliny the elder..
Founding Mothers
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 29, 2003 01:10 pm
RE: Mantolives.....Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Founding Mothers
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 29, 2003 01:10 pm
RE: Mantolives.....Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Founding Mothers
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 29, 2003 01:10 pm
RE: Mantolives.....Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Founding Mothers
Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 29, 2003 01:10 pm
RE: Mantolives.....Re:# 34
MAntolives writes ..
``Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books``....
Your posts amuse me .... you are too condescending - You dont hold the monopoly on truth - Some of your articles are on the mark - others are pure revisionism based not on fact but personal opinion. Andyou pass it off as history....
``Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’…
what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? ``
It would be depend on your mindset - Logically speaking in the Pakistan of today with a strong ethnocentric bias - this is probably true.... ( Actually even today in the cosmopolitan cities of Islamabad and Karachi `` amongst the enligtened ones`` - this does not hold true)....
The period of 1920- 1955 was unique in the history of the subcontinental Muslims - it saw the emergence of an ``enligtened class`` of Muslim intelligensia... - Some emerged from humble backgrounds like Jinnah and Iqbal - self made men - others like Liaquat or Nazimudin were aristoicrats - Still others like the Isphanis or the Haroons were mercantile houses.....- all buoyed by the traditions of the British Raj - which to large
degree promoted ``meritocracy`` at least in the administrative services.....
Consequently the degree of enligtenment that present amongst the founding fathers of Pakistan is noticeably absent today - Intermarriage accross ethnic lines was common place - Shia-Sunni marriage amongst them are also very common....
Jinnah - who was a gujrati speaking Khoja ( from Gujrat) was a hit across INdia partular respected among the lawless tribesmen of Baluchistan and the Frontier .....
Liaquat - A East Punjabi whose main constituency was UP/ CENtral India and Delhi....
Iqbal - A Kashmiri from Sialkot was a instant celebrity in Calcutta and moost of India......
Moin Nawaz Jang et al - from Hyderabad repatriated corores of rupees to Pakistan illegally....so that Pakistan could survive
Ross MAsood - from Delhi - grandson of Sir Syed was highly regarded in Lahore and a good friend of Iqbal...
Abdur Rab Nishtar - from West Punjab was much respected by the Indian Muslims
All India MUslim League held sessions in almost all cities of the sub continent - and the leaders attended these sessions with their wives .....so it is not inconceivable that Sindhi women was fighting for a cause in Lahore...
Also over time many of these leaders married their children or grand children into each others families - consequently many of their progeny is also inter-related ....
The ethnocentric focus that you allude to is a much later phenomenon ie mid -late 50`s
it was an attempt by the feudal forces ( mostly former Unionists) for a grab of power aided by the NCO`s who had become masters of Pakistan Army and eventually Pakistan. - It also saw the eventual disintegration of the institutions of the Raj which promoted meritocracy and instead regressed to a system that predated it and heavily relied on nepotism, and clan and regional affiliations...... ala ``sikha Shahi``.
Bhutto ( despite his dynamicism and substantial accomplishments as a FM)
through his machivallian poltics of populism - eventually destroyed the mercantile houses that opposed him ( destroying Pakistan industry) - and made a mockery of education by socializing it - and completely destroyed any semblance of law and order by politisizing the judiciary and enforcement.
It is also ironic that none of the leaders of the Pakistan movement promoted their children ...... In stark contrast to the dynastic ambitions of the houses of Ayub, Bhutto and zia and the sharifs......
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these ladies ( most of the ones who survived into the 70`s and 80`s) - that you write you about..and heard first hand anecdotal accounts from my family about others.
BTW - I am not the editor that you allude to - I am just a sruggling individual trying to make end meet... and not accomplished enough to meddle in poltics - local or otherwise.....
Founding Mothers
When Congress was established in 1885 - I dont beileve Dominion was an agenda - it was a natural outgrowth of tha Arya and Brahmo Samaj movements for social and cultural reform..... ( education reform , Banning of social practices such as sati etc etc ) MOst of the INdian founders such as Naroji ( a mentor of Jinnah), Surendernath banejee, W. BONerjee , Justice Ranade, and M.M Maloviya (sp?) had strong urban roots and very little to do with the feudal aristocracy..... Congress`s left wing bent began much after the first world war and the the success of the Bosheviks ..... ( and quite possibly in the late 20`s - early 30`) - the beginning of the depresson era - when Socialism was at the height of its popularity in Europe and England .....- One can contrast the politics of MOtilal and jawaharlal Nehru to notice the changing of the idelogical guard......
If you look at the Origins of teh MUslim League - the founders seem to be an even more ecletic Bunch, Navab Mohsin ul Mulk and Nawab Viqar ul MUlk - were both Aligarh academics - ( The title Nawab was a recognition from the Nizam), Maluana Zafar Ali Khan - a populist but improvished newspaper publisher from LAhore and protege of MOhsin ul Mulk, Maluana MOhd ALi Jauhar - another populist firebrand , and Hakim Ajmal Khan of Delhi -the founder of Jamia MIllia and of course their financial backer Nawab Saleemullah of Dacca.....and later joined by the Aga Khan.
Their main focus was to oppose the change of official second language from Urdu to HIndi which was in place across Northern India........and to safeguard Muslim interests against the rising tide of perceieved HIndu nationalism....Remember the British were toppling the apple cart in both Muslim and HIndu majority areas to maintain a healthy rivalry.
THe Muslim League`s feudal bias is a much later phenomenon that was itiatied by Mr JInnah as a ruse to garner support of Muslim leadership in the feudal states of what now constitute Pakistan and the princely states .... wheras the banner of Islam was used to garner the more populist vote in Bengal and Central India......( i believe that was a late 30`s phenomenon)
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 26, 2003 03:33 pm
RE:Rafay Alam......When Congress was established in 1885 - I dont beileve Dominion was an agenda - it was a natural outgrowth of tha Arya and Brahmo Samaj movements for social and cultural reform..... ( education reform , Banning of social practices such as sati etc etc ) MOst of the INdian founders such as Naroji ( a mentor of Jinnah), Surendernath banejee, W. BONerjee , Justice Ranade, and M.M Maloviya (sp?) had strong urban roots and very little to do with the feudal aristocracy..... Congress`s left wing bent began much after the first world war and the the success of the Bosheviks ..... ( and quite possibly in the late 20`s - early 30`) - the beginning of the depresson era - when Socialism was at the height of its popularity in Europe and England .....- One can contrast the politics of MOtilal and jawaharlal Nehru to notice the changing of the idelogical guard......
If you look at the Origins of teh MUslim League - the founders seem to be an even more ecletic Bunch, Navab Mohsin ul Mulk and Nawab Viqar ul MUlk - were both Aligarh academics - ( The title Nawab was a recognition from the Nizam), Maluana Zafar Ali Khan - a populist but improvished newspaper publisher from LAhore and protege of MOhsin ul Mulk, Maluana MOhd ALi Jauhar - another populist firebrand , and Hakim Ajmal Khan of Delhi -the founder of Jamia MIllia and of course their financial backer Nawab Saleemullah of Dacca.....and later joined by the Aga Khan.
Their main focus was to oppose the change of official second language from Urdu to HIndi which was in place across Northern India........and to safeguard Muslim interests against the rising tide of perceieved HIndu nationalism....Remember the British were toppling the apple cart in both Muslim and HIndu majority areas to maintain a healthy rivalry.
THe Muslim League`s feudal bias is a much later phenomenon that was itiatied by Mr JInnah as a ruse to garner support of Muslim leadership in the feudal states of what now constitute Pakistan and the princely states .... wheras the banner of Islam was used to garner the more populist vote in Bengal and Central India......( i believe that was a late 30`s phenomenon)
Founding Mothers
Sigalph
I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 25, 2003 08:41 pm
RE #24Sigalph
I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..
Founding Mothers
Sigalph
I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 25, 2003 08:41 pm
RE #24Sigalph
I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..
Founding Mothers
Monsieur manto - I suggest you re-read history ....
Mr Manto writes...
``For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it. ``
BY your analogy - Allama Iqbal who died in 1938 had nothing to do with the Pakistan movement. Since the declaration was in 1940...... THis is akin to saying that Tilak and Gokhale had nothing to do with the Indian independence movement since they died prior to 1947 - This is warped logic.....
I suggest you alter your opinions to face facts - you tend to alter facts to suit opinion......
I think most Pakistanis would be laughing hysterically by now ................
MOhd ALi was one of the founders of the League - and was one of the earlier proponents of a nationhood for muslims along with fire brand hasrat Mohani - It was Iqbal who later provided the the physical realization of that idea....... MOhd ALi was a consistent proponent of the idea of a Muslim nationhood and attended the Round table conferences as the leagues representative -several times.and was part of its core leadership until his death in 1932.........According to most historians the genesis of the Pakistan movement started with Syed Ahmed Khan and the education of Muslims - unless you claim that Aligarh had no part in the creation of Pakistan.......and each successive generation created the infrastructure needed for successive generations to follow upon.....
Manto writes .....
The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.
Any published account of that incident credits Mrs Sugra HIdayatullah with that deed - and not some poor beggar-woman that mom treated in the hospital.....
Let us assume that I am wrong - so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........if not revisionism.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 25, 2003 08:41 pm
RE #24Monsieur manto - I suggest you re-read history ....
Mr Manto writes...
``For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it. ``
BY your analogy - Allama Iqbal who died in 1938 had nothing to do with the Pakistan movement. Since the declaration was in 1940...... THis is akin to saying that Tilak and Gokhale had nothing to do with the Indian independence movement since they died prior to 1947 - This is warped logic.....
I suggest you alter your opinions to face facts - you tend to alter facts to suit opinion......
I think most Pakistanis would be laughing hysterically by now ................
MOhd ALi was one of the founders of the League - and was one of the earlier proponents of a nationhood for muslims along with fire brand hasrat Mohani - It was Iqbal who later provided the the physical realization of that idea....... MOhd ALi was a consistent proponent of the idea of a Muslim nationhood and attended the Round table conferences as the leagues representative -several times.and was part of its core leadership until his death in 1932.........According to most historians the genesis of the Pakistan movement started with Syed Ahmed Khan and the education of Muslims - unless you claim that Aligarh had no part in the creation of Pakistan.......and each successive generation created the infrastructure needed for successive generations to follow upon.....
Manto writes .....
The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.
Any published account of that incident credits Mrs Sugra HIdayatullah with that deed - and not some poor beggar-woman that mom treated in the hospital.....
Let us assume that I am wrong - so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........if not revisionism.....
Founding Mothers
In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....
But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......
Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......
On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 25, 2003 09:45 am
Re: Mantolives....In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....
But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......
Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......
On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....
Founding Mothers
In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....
But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......
Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......
On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 25, 2003 09:45 am
Re: Mantolives....In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....
But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......
Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......
On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....
Founding Mothers
Although I applaud Mr hamdani’s intentions - His research is both juvenile and Inaccurate
The History of the Muslim women’s of the subcontinent has always been in the context of the husband, brother or father - otherwise in the early twentieth century ( Victorian mores were often practiced and an independent women was more than likely to be plying her avocation ) ……
Consequently the following statement is ridiculous
“These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers.”
There is nothing thing that riles me more than the ignorant ( NOTE Ignorant) distortion of history. A simple research of middle school history textbooks would have yielded more accurate information….
All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….
The leaders of the Women’s movement both the Mohatrama Fatima Jinnah And Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan are probably the most prominent – whom you choose to ignore – Their contributions are substantially more than the other leaders you chose to highlight- independently in their own right .....
Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)…..
Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh.
Lady Nusrat Haroon ( not Nusrat Khanum) : ( widow of Sir Abdullah Haroon) was a tour de force in the Pakistan Muslim league – She was the First President of the Women’s League – Her prominence was so great that even MOhtarma Fatima Jinnah used to defer to her …. ( and mother to the befuddling Yusuf and Mahmood Haroon)
Begum Wali Mohammed effendi ( I think daughter of Hasan Ali Effendi )was also a p[rominet league leader – I believe she is a maternal grandmother to the Pakistani supreme Khota _ ASif Zardari….
Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi…
Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences...
Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities…….
Princess ( not Begum) Abida Hussain – daughter of the Nawab of Bhopal ( one of the financiers of the League and a protégé of Jinnah) was activist in her own right – I believe she was separated from her Husband – held several prominent ambassadorial positions in the Foreign service – Also the mother of Shehryar Khan later Foreign secretary of Pakistan…..
Other prominent people included Fatima Shaikh, Begum nawab Mohd Ismail, Begum Hussain Ara khan, Begum Iqbal Hussain, Begum Mohd Ali Jauhar, and Noorus saba Begum ( an Aunt of Gen Musharraf) ...
Begum rana Liaquat Ali Khan was certainly one the two most prominent women’s personalities in Pakistan ( the other being Fatima Jinnah) – founder of APWA, founder of ALL India Women’s Muslim league Ambassador, Governor and certainly worthy of being buried in the Masoleum of the Quaid
And of Course Mohtrama Fatima Jinnah – despite her temperament for which takes a lot of flak – deserves the title of Madre Millat for service above and beyond the call of duty in ventures too numerous to mention…….
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 24, 2003 06:28 pm
“ A jaw bone of an ass is as lethal today as it was when David Slay Goliath”…..Although I applaud Mr hamdani’s intentions - His research is both juvenile and Inaccurate
The History of the Muslim women’s of the subcontinent has always been in the context of the husband, brother or father - otherwise in the early twentieth century ( Victorian mores were often practiced and an independent women was more than likely to be plying her avocation ) ……
Consequently the following statement is ridiculous
“These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers.”
There is nothing thing that riles me more than the ignorant ( NOTE Ignorant) distortion of history. A simple research of middle school history textbooks would have yielded more accurate information….
All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….
The leaders of the Women’s movement both the Mohatrama Fatima Jinnah And Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan are probably the most prominent – whom you choose to ignore – Their contributions are substantially more than the other leaders you chose to highlight- independently in their own right .....
Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)…..
Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh.
Lady Nusrat Haroon ( not Nusrat Khanum) : ( widow of Sir Abdullah Haroon) was a tour de force in the Pakistan Muslim league – She was the First President of the Women’s League – Her prominence was so great that even MOhtarma Fatima Jinnah used to defer to her …. ( and mother to the befuddling Yusuf and Mahmood Haroon)
Begum Wali Mohammed effendi ( I think daughter of Hasan Ali Effendi )was also a p[rominet league leader – I believe she is a maternal grandmother to the Pakistani supreme Khota _ ASif Zardari….
Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi…
Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences...
Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities…….
Princess ( not Begum) Abida Hussain – daughter of the Nawab of Bhopal ( one of the financiers of the League and a protégé of Jinnah) was activist in her own right – I believe she was separated from her Husband – held several prominent ambassadorial positions in the Foreign service – Also the mother of Shehryar Khan later Foreign secretary of Pakistan…..
Other prominent people included Fatima Shaikh, Begum nawab Mohd Ismail, Begum Hussain Ara khan, Begum Iqbal Hussain, Begum Mohd Ali Jauhar, and Noorus saba Begum ( an Aunt of Gen Musharraf) ...
Begum rana Liaquat Ali Khan was certainly one the two most prominent women’s personalities in Pakistan ( the other being Fatima Jinnah) – founder of APWA, founder of ALL India Women’s Muslim league Ambassador, Governor and certainly worthy of being buried in the Masoleum of the Quaid
And of Course Mohtrama Fatima Jinnah – despite her temperament for which takes a lot of flak – deserves the title of Madre Millat for service above and beyond the call of duty in ventures too numerous to mention…….
Founding Mothers
Although I applaud Mr hamdani’s intentions - His research is both juvenile and Inaccurate
The History of the Muslim women’s of the subcontinent has always been in the context of the husband, brother or father - otherwise in the early twentieth century ( Victorian mores were often practiced and an independent women was more than likely to be plying her avocation ) ……
Consequently the following statement is ridiculous
“These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers.”
There is nothing thing that riles me more than the ignorant ( NOTE Ignorant) distortion of history. A simple research of middle school history textbooks would have yielded more accurate information….
All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….
The leaders of the Women’s movement both the Mohatrama Fatima Jinnah And Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan are probably the most prominent – whom you choose to ignore – Their contributions are substantially more than the other leaders you chose to highlight- independently in their own right .....
Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)…..
Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh.
Lady Nusrat Haroon ( not Nusrat Khanum) : ( widow of Sir Abdullah Haroon) was a tour de force in the Pakistan Muslim league – She was the First President of the Women’s League – Her prominence was so great that even MOhtarma Fatima Jinnah used to defer to her …. ( and mother to the befuddling Yusuf and Mahmood Haroon)
Begum Wali Mohammed effendi ( I think daughter of Hasan Ali Effendi )was also a p[rominet league leader – I believe she is a maternal grandmother to the Pakistani supreme Khota _ ASif Zardari….
Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi…
Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences...
Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities…….
Princess ( not Begum) Abida Hussain – daughter of the Nawab of Bhopal ( one of the financiers of the League and a protégé of Jinnah) was activist in her own right – I believe she was separated from her Husband – held several prominent ambassadorial positions in the Foreign service – Also the mother of Shehryar Khan later Foreign secretary of Pakistan…..
Other prominent people included Fatima Shaikh, Begum nawab Mohd Ismail, Begum Hussain Ara khan, Begum Iqbal Hussain, Begum Mohd Ali Jauhar, and Noorus saba Begum ( an Aunt of Gen Musharraf) ...
Begum rana Liaquat Ali Khan was certainly one the two most prominent women’s personalities in Pakistan ( the other being Fatima Jinnah) – founder of APWA, founder of ALL India Women’s Muslim league Ambassador, Governor and certainly worthy of being buried in the Masoleum of the Quaid
And of Course Mohtrama Fatima Jinnah – despite her temperament for which takes a lot of flak – deserves the title of Madre Millat for service above and beyond the call of duty in ventures too numerous to mention…….
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 24, 2003 06:28 pm
“ A jaw bone of an ass is as lethal today as it was when David Slay Goliath”…..Although I applaud Mr hamdani’s intentions - His research is both juvenile and Inaccurate
The History of the Muslim women’s of the subcontinent has always been in the context of the husband, brother or father - otherwise in the early twentieth century ( Victorian mores were often practiced and an independent women was more than likely to be plying her avocation ) ……
Consequently the following statement is ridiculous
“These women are those whose contributions to the cause of Pakistan stood independent of their spouses, brothers or fathers. Therefore Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Viqarrunnisa Noon, and Begum Abida Sultan are not amongst them, despite the fact that they too have every right to be included in the founding mothers.”
There is nothing thing that riles me more than the ignorant ( NOTE Ignorant) distortion of history. A simple research of middle school history textbooks would have yielded more accurate information….
All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….
The leaders of the Women’s movement both the Mohatrama Fatima Jinnah And Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan are probably the most prominent – whom you choose to ignore – Their contributions are substantially more than the other leaders you chose to highlight- independently in their own right .....
Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)…..
Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh.
Lady Nusrat Haroon ( not Nusrat Khanum) : ( widow of Sir Abdullah Haroon) was a tour de force in the Pakistan Muslim league – She was the First President of the Women’s League – Her prominence was so great that even MOhtarma Fatima Jinnah used to defer to her …. ( and mother to the befuddling Yusuf and Mahmood Haroon)
Begum Wali Mohammed effendi ( I think daughter of Hasan Ali Effendi )was also a p[rominet league leader – I believe she is a maternal grandmother to the Pakistani supreme Khota _ ASif Zardari….
Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi…
Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences...
Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities…….
Princess ( not Begum) Abida Hussain – daughter of the Nawab of Bhopal ( one of the financiers of the League and a protégé of Jinnah) was activist in her own right – I believe she was separated from her Husband – held several prominent ambassadorial positions in the Foreign service – Also the mother of Shehryar Khan later Foreign secretary of Pakistan…..
Other prominent people included Fatima Shaikh, Begum nawab Mohd Ismail, Begum Hussain Ara khan, Begum Iqbal Hussain, Begum Mohd Ali Jauhar, and Noorus saba Begum ( an Aunt of Gen Musharraf) ...
Begum rana Liaquat Ali Khan was certainly one the two most prominent women’s personalities in Pakistan ( the other being Fatima Jinnah) – founder of APWA, founder of ALL India Women’s Muslim league Ambassador, Governor and certainly worthy of being buried in the Masoleum of the Quaid
And of Course Mohtrama Fatima Jinnah – despite her temperament for which takes a lot of flak – deserves the title of Madre Millat for service above and beyond the call of duty in ventures too numerous to mention…….
Operation Searchlight
There were a number of notable Generals who oopposed West Pakistani Policies in Bangladesh. Vice-Admiral Ahsan was prominent amongst those. He was soon removed from office. Even Lt Gen Saihbzada Yakoob Ali khan - despite his earlier saber-rattling as part of the Insurgency planning came to see things differently once posted GOC - Eastern Command - He was subsequently demoted to Maj-Gen and placed under house arrest in West Pakistan during the duration of the 71 war. It was Zia ul Haq who later rehabilitated him as Foreign minister and restored his rank to Lt-Gen ( post Retirement)......
Of course Gen Tikka Khan a la ``Butcher of Dacca`` was later promoted by Bhutto to Chief of staff ( or Cinc C i am not sure wheteher Cin C was abolished in the 70`s) and later as Governor of Punjab. there were many even in the Lahore gentry that avoided this man like the plague.... - He was a personal and professional digrace - Nothing more than a glorified subaltern....
there were other Graduates of Bangladesh that were later to lead insurgency operations in Baluchistan - Sind and karachi ...
Lt Gen Jehanzeb Arbab ( Later a corrupt Gov of Sind) - is listed is the Hammodur Rehman Report ha shaving been involved in looting and misappropriation of funds......
The infamous Naseerullah Babur ( another Bhutto protege)- who reportedly as a Captain deserted his post in bangladesh ( and later a POW) - was involved in the bloody repression of the MQM in Karachi where thousands of non-political civilians came in the cross fire. He used to proudly boast as being the Father of the Taliban as well. I hope they haul his rotten ass to Guantanomo......
THe HamoodurRehman report is online at
http://www.dawn.com/events/14aug2000/report/report.htm
It describes quite vividly and unrevocably the complete corruption of Command and Control - with all the guilty parties - IT also describes in shocking detail - Dereliction of duty, and in some cases abandonment of positions by two star and one star generals......
As for Adm Mansoor ul Haq - it is alittle known fact that he is a Bhutto too.... His mother was Bhutto Sr`s sister who was married off to a local Clan in SOuthern Punjab.....
IT is also well known that most Zia protege`s from Gen Fazle Haq the drug Baron Gov of NWFP during Zia`s tenure, to GEn AKthar Abdur Rehman ( His son) , Gen Aslam beg, and Gen Zia ( through his son ... were dollar bilionaires exposed by Musharraf during his vaunted anti-corruption drive......
Posted by
SyedAhmed
Nov 23, 2003 10:21 pm
SUb: Admiral Ahsan....There were a number of notable Generals who oopposed West Pakistani Policies in Bangladesh. Vice-Admiral Ahsan was prominent amongst those. He was soon removed from office. Even Lt Gen Saihbzada Yakoob Ali khan - despite his earlier saber-rattling as part of the Insurgency planning came to see things differently once posted GOC - Eastern Command - He was subsequently demoted to Maj-Gen and placed under house arrest in West Pakistan during the duration of the 71 war. It was Zia ul Haq who later rehabilitated him as Foreign minister and restored his rank to Lt-Gen ( post Retirement)......
Of course Gen Tikka Khan a la ``Butcher of Dacca`` was later promoted by Bhutto to Chief of staff ( or Cinc C i am not sure wheteher Cin C was abolished in the 70`s) and later as Governor of Punjab. there were many even in the Lahore gentry that avoided this man like the plague.... - He was a personal and professional digrace - Nothing more than a glorified subaltern....
there were other Graduates of Bangladesh that were later to lead insurgency operations in Baluchistan - Sind and karachi ...
Lt Gen Jehanzeb Arbab ( Later a corrupt Gov of Sind) - is listed is the Hammodur Rehman Report ha shaving been involved in looting and misappropriation of funds......
The infamous Naseerullah Babur ( another Bhutto protege)- who reportedly as a Captain deserted his post in bangladesh ( and later a POW) - was involved in the bloody repression of the MQM in Karachi where thousands of non-political civilians came in the cross fire. He used to proudly boast as being the Father of the Taliban as well. I hope they haul his rotten ass to Guantanomo......
THe HamoodurRehman report is online at
http://www.dawn.com/events/14aug2000/report/report.htm
It describes quite vividly and unrevocably the complete corruption of Command and Control - with all the guilty parties - IT also describes in shocking detail - Dereliction of duty, and in some cases abandonment of positions by two star and one star generals......
As for Adm Mansoor ul Haq - it is alittle known fact that he is a Bhutto too.... His mother was Bhutto Sr`s sister who was married off to a local Clan in SOuthern Punjab.....
IT is also well known that most Zia protege`s from Gen Fazle Haq the drug Baron Gov of NWFP during Zia`s tenure, to GEn AKthar Abdur Rehman ( His son) , Gen Aslam beg, and Gen Zia ( through his son ... were dollar bilionaires exposed by Musharraf during his vaunted anti-corruption drive......
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