Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows Re; #12

Rozaiba writes:

``More likely, this mumbo jumbo about `authentic nationhood` is usually appealing to expatriates who think Pakistan`s evolutionary process should have achieved in 50 years, what it took America or Britain or any other mature democracy over 200 years to achieve. ``

This is the standard line of indoctrination at the GHQ staff college - Unfortunately it as much fiction as the much touted martial races theory - good for NCO morale only.....

If chronological maturity was the only Standard - Greece and Rome would have been models of democracy for ages _ remember democracy was invented in the city states and The Romans practiced limited democracy for centuries before the Caesarian coup...( both achieved democracy post ww-2 - Greece perhaps in the early 70s) ..... Unfortunately there is a thing called regression - often practiced in Pakistan (and by Pakistanis on the Chowk) and starkly evident in Afghanistan........

Democracy is neither new nor modern - it took over 2000 years before the American founding fathers acquired the requisite quorum for sane and rational behavior of self government. The US constitution is hardly an original document - it borrows heavily from the Greeks, Romans and the French philosophers...- The fact that it is a working solution is a testament to the framers ingenuity.....

Restrictive democracy has been practised in Malaysia since 57 - with astounding results - and I think nobody can claim that the Malay tribes had a democratic tradition older than the last bastion of servitude to the mighty British empire

Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows Re Mantolives #1:

Matolives writes ``.... there was aberration it was the inclusion of East Bengal in Pakistan and that has since been corrected. Remember the founders of Pakistan were more than ready to concede an independent Bengali Republic... ``

The aberration that you refer to is entirely dellusional - It would be the other way around .... PAkistan would probable constitue the state of Bengal.... and what today constitutes Pakistan would be under the heel of Indian suzeranity... Bengal supplied over half the leadership of the League, not to mentrion a disproptionate amount of intellectual capital and muscle. Even today Bangladesh has a stronger sense of its Islamic identity and its roots than most in Pakistan do. Unfortunately the vast majority of Pakistani founders were of Bengali origin - it would be stupid to think that they would create Pakistan for pakistan`s sake...- The secondary and teritary ranks of Muslim League muslim was disproptionately from Bengal ( East/West).


The perception of the authors is correct that most Pakistanis ( and this is amply evident on the chowk ) tend to think myopically in terms of ethnic, linguistic or clannish spheres. This malaise is so common that even in official Government and military circles ethnicity plays a disproptoionately substantial role than in INdian officialdom......

You see the genesis of pakistan now taking places in multi-cultural cities of Islamabad and Karachi where migration and inter-marriage is breaking down old ethnic and linguistic molds particularly in the upwardly mobile classes.... The working classes still remain virtually segregrated into ethnic ghettos even in these multi-cultural cities.... Ironically the demagogery that permeates the fabric of Pakistani culture is evidenced in the microcasm of the only two cosmopolitan bastions of Pakistani society ...( A punjabi born in Karchi denigrates his more provinical rural counterparts with the same vigor as the Mohajir does to his Indian muslim cousins) .....

Conversely the regional identification and parochial attitudes are more pronounced in aristiocracy ( ie the feudals and their army/civilian minions ) in the provincial capitals of Lahore, Quetta, Peshawar and Karachi - ( Perhaps a legacy of the schizophrenic educational foundations) than it is in the hinterland of either one of the provinces - a poor Sindhi/PUnjabi/BAloh/Pathan farmer is more concerned about getting his next week`s meagre nourishment than he is with philosophical and idelogical dellusions......

Part of the Parochial attitiudes of Pakistani culture can be attributed to the earlier British administration which relied on ethnic and linguistic patronage to keep the peace. Even today some 50 + years after indepenedence the recruiting in the Army remains heavily parochial to the northern distyricts of Pindi, Jhang, Jhelum, Sheikupura etc etc ( ie teh Pindi -lahore belt). The Army Generals being the defacto cardinals of the `divine right` papacy hitherto known as CMLA etc etc ..... The parochial attitudes remain unabated ....

Sex and the Saudi RE: #6 ...

I Concur with Ras - While demonzing the reprehensible behaviour of the Saudi - the writer uses poor judgement and racial stereotypes to reinforcement his point.....
The term martial races ( a fictional agrandizement of the the NCOs by the gora masters )... The Proud pathan vs the pathetic Bengali .... `` The Brown skins vs ( The punjabis like me) `` reeks of racism etc etc ... I Have met both tall fair Bangladeshis as well as short dark Punjabis ....- so the racial steretypes dont apply..... and even iof there are - I have seen several short Dark `` put yoourt nationality here`` managinging tall fair Pakis dudes all over the valley ...... SO loose the stereotypes dude.....

A Student Remembers a Great Teacher Re: #7

Edward Said was perhaps one of the few intellectuals in the Arab world that had the strength of his convictions and eloquence of both his literary work and his humanity to have a huge impact on the cause of his people.

One may not agree with his viewpoints but the grace with which he expressed his views mesmerised both friend and foe alike. His passing left a vacum of an eloquent spokesperson for the Palestinian cause.

Said had spoken often on College campuses and I have been priveliged to hear him speak on several occassions. He spoke with brutal clarity, masked in subtle sarcasm and a sharp wit, - a hero to his supporters - a worthy foe to his detractors - but always a gentleman to the last days of his life....

He shall be sorely missed not just for his compassionate and eloquent portryal for his people- but for the true academic and intellectual that he was.... A great man who left a legacy far larger than himself ..... IN the pantheon of post modern Arab heroes - he shall surely stand out - but in hearts and minds of people who believe in compassion and justice his clarion call will echo for the rest of our lives........ Standing at the citadel of power he was couragous enough to say ......O Great PHaroah !! Set my people free.....

Surely I for one will mourn the passing of a great man .....

RE: tahmed

Edward Said was a man - not a god..... with failings and mistakes But your derision of the man - with abilities far greater than yourself based on a narrow view point is a poor reflection of your judgment.... Said was an humble man - despite his outstanding accomplishments and respectable credentials - IN retrospect - your arrogance and perhaps contempt rings hollow - based on no public accomplishments to date ...... _

Perhaps that is what distinguishes mice from men ............

Muslim League’s Politics (1937-1947) Hmmm a nice discussion .....

Dividing Sothern Punjab into a Saraiki province is a good idea - It gives regional autonomy to Southern Areas of Punjab - which is sorely needing devlopment funds. MOst of the devlopment in Punjab is restricted to the Lahore -Pindi - Faisalabad triangle - which incidentally also is home to the army consitituency......



It will also perpetualy end the bogey of majority provincial dominantion...


ALong the same lines Baluchistan can be divided into two provinces - between the Baluch/Brauhi and the Pashtun therby ending that feud forever ......

The Northern areas along with Kashmir can also be consolidated into a single province....

Sindh is another quagmire between the urbans and rurals .. A comprehensive division straegy copuld be devised such that teh urban centres become autonomously governing - but would compensate the province of Sindh for development funds for the next ( As stipulated 20 years or so....Thereby remedying urban demands for autonomy and rural demand for development funds......

I think the Pakistanis can learn a lot from the INdians - where they have paritioned the inefficiently governed states of Bihar ( 2 states) , Madhya Pradesh ( 2 states) , and UP ( 2 sates and probably more to come)....

Pakistan and Israel: Through the prism of realities Let me be the devil`s advocate on this ....

The author is primarily viewing this from the vantage point of a Pakistani expatriate in the
US- Obiously lobbying in the uS for Pakistan would become an easier task - given a more favorable tilt from American Jewish Organizations .... - I

But lets look at it from a Pakistani perspective....

A substantial portion of the Pakistan foreign Exchange comes from the GCC Gulf countries which are generally vehmently opposed to the Isreali recognition - Consequently an adverse decision to replace the hundreds of thousands of Pakis from the Gulf - could cause serious short term fianancial drawbacks. UAE Alone provide about US$12B in foreign exchange remitances roughly equal to the private remittances from the US to Pakistan. (

One could argue that there is a sizeable INdian poulation in the gulf as well - but that is primarily because Pakistanis in general are a very stupid people and have created a reputation that is represntative of their culture and value system - IN fact Pakistanis constitute on the largest percentage of the foreign workers in terms of the prision populations of the GCC countries) ... In addition Pakistan imports subsidized oil from both the UAE and Saudi Arabia on very favorable terms in certain cases on barter of goods - thereby conservinbg valuable foreign exchange ( an advantage that INdia is not offered)...

Moreover the GUlf countries also provide substantial defense funds in subsidizing Pakistanis faujis stationed in the Gulf and since the army calls the shots anyway - most officers would hate to see their pension plans go away

IN retrospect while the US Aid to Pakistan is mostly in terms of long term loans- and loan guarantees through the IMF and World Bank - the Arabs tend to be a be a little more generous in terms of their aid commitments to Pakistan...

Consequently a substantial change in foreign policy with adequate financial safeguards - is difficult - NOw certainly either

1. THe US provides a substantial handout to Pakistan ( ala Egypt) to recognize ISrael...
2. Israel & the US absorb the thousands of Paki janitors in the Gulf ....
3. That the Paki army could be given additional mine clearing assignments in the jungles of the Congo to compensate for exaggerated compensation in THE GCC countries...


The second part of the author`s arguments are also based on ``feel`` good statements- Israel has no real interest in Paki Paindoos - cause Pakis have nothing to offer with the exception of NUclear - nonproliferation - but that can easily be assured by the US ``Danda``. Secondly with the exception of Iraq/PLO - almost all Arab govt`s have been pro-Pakistan in terms of Pakistan`s stand on Kashmir wheras the West prefers a status quo at best.

In retrospect INdia and Israel ahve an active economic realtionship going back a couple of decades - Israel is far more concerned about an Independent Iran and probably seeks Islamabad`s help in a containment policy for Iran. - which Pakistan is hardly in position to provide since its 20% Shia Population is fairly influential and quite pro Iran - unless the author proposes a genocide of Pakistani Shias ( ala Bangladesh) ....

The author also has the tamarity to point out that the fault in Pakistan lies with democracy -or the common man. Conversely it can be argued that almost all the demagogues in Pakistan were a product of Martial law - Bhutto, SHareef, Mujib , Altaf etc etc ......

In the 21st century Pakistan has no influence with anybody except perhaps the UAE or Saudi - because they probably have the same number of functionally illiterate policy makers as Pakistan. This was amply demonstated that the PAk-Afghanb policy was not recognized by any country in the Islamic block....

THE author suffers from ``delusions of grandeur`` that Pakistan take the lead in the foreign policy arena - I would argue otherwise - that Pakistan is in no position to take any leadership role anywhere anytime soon. The author also alludes the the failure of Pakistani lobbying efforts in the US to Pakistan`s foreign policy.

Rather I would argue that Pakistan`s failure in lobbbying has to to with complete incompetence of the local Pakistan community - which besides ``qorma- khori`` - eating tandoor dishes and arm-chair generalship amounts to the strategic depth of a septic tank.

The achievements of Pakistanis viz a viz Indians are non-existent in the US - even though rough estimates put Pakis at about 1.2 million to the INdians being about 2.2 million....

THe author dismisses public opinion as insignificant - I would argue otherwise ....

Public opinion is based on moral, religious cultural and historic sensibilities.... and you cant push the public aside too often ....

a case in example was Bangladesh - where the ruling coitere completely disregarded public opinions of the majority of population of Pakistan which happened to be Bengalis - and consequently we know of the aftermath...

Acccording to your warped logic - that would also rationalize - dropping the kashmir issue altogether - since the KAshmiris have little to offer Pakistan in terms of financial or any other advantages ....

Next thing you know the author will be advocating the export of Pakistani women to Iraq - since that will bring substantial financial advantages - regardless of public opinion since Manila has receeded from that service sector ......



Foreign policy is based on siocial, political , economic, historical, cultural and demographic points of view . The author has shown no compeling scenario for a drastic change in Pakistani foreign poicy. - The cost of social upheavel is just too great - a fact I am sure theGeneral has taken into account

I do however agree that recognition of Israel is a matter of time and circumstance .. Pakistan should wait for the eventual recognition of Israel as the Arab nations fall into place .

Dislodging a Dictator Ms Benazir Bhutto`s only crendentials for the job seem to be her lineage - which in a tribal culture like Pakistan amounts to everything. Her incompetence however is legendary - and her association with crooks, brigands, murderers, vagrants and thieves does not add to her persona or credibility -except to the mentally retarded or the physically infatuated. Ms Bhutto does have a charismatic personality and good TV persona - but so does Traci Lords ... and nobody is clamoring her for her to run for elective office...... - With almost 2 terms in office there is no tangible legacy of any accomplishment but a wasteland of corruption and debauchery....

I tend to Agree with some of the respondents - that comparing Ms Jinnah to Miss Bhutto is an affront to sane and rational people. Ms Jinnah was an immensely charisamtic personality ( independent of being Mr Jinnah`s Sister) and a person of immense stature in her own right.

However one would disagree that one could lay the entire blame of Pakistan`s disastrous tryst with self government on Mr Jinnah`s precedence as Governor General of Pakistan. Mr Jinnah had strong democratic credentials as had an even stronger track record throughout his political career from the privy council to politics of the Muslim league as a fairly resolute democrat.

Similar parrlelles are evidenced even in US history - with Lincoln during the Civil War or Roooselvelt during WW2 - where their presidency assumed almost regal powers.

The problem has less to do the with insitutions - since the institutions were fairly strong until the early 50`s - a benevolenbt gift to the barbarians.

The blame lies squarely on Pakistani culture and its tribal origins. Democratic institutions have not flourished because there is no progressive culture. Forget Pakistan _ lets look at Pakistanis in the US .... -``big on words - very little action`` - a flair for the theatrics - any institution founded by Pakis is a diaster area whether it is APSENA or any other religious social or professional organization... Agreeably there is no concept of amicable conflict resolution, no collective responsibilty - no concept of transitional leadership - One can argue that there is a strong tradition of a democratic culture in the US, - one can argue the high level of professional accomplisments of individuals at a personal level - and even an above average education - moreover an environment conducive to both personal and collective growth. Clues lie in the replies of many of my fellow respondents - there are strong overt references of almost mythical proportions of personal accomplishments, - a strong tribal, regional, cultural underpinnings of racial or cultural superiority where none exists, a penchanct for for finger pointing based on emotional rhetoric and quite frankly a complete lack of focus or vision beyond personal promotion.

The same principles when applied to a national level yield similar results - a personality oriented tug of war with no emphasis on results - and a cult of personality without any accountability and consequently the diefication of leaders like Ms Bhutto









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Message in the Bubble Burst Re:36

Ms Zahra,

You are absolutely right on the mark. My comments were indeed a hyperbole... My outlandish style not withstanding... - education policy in Pakistan and primary in Science and technology has been a dismal failure for two reasons ( IMHO) -

Pakistan lacks a creative ``academic culture`` - public Universities are too politicized - and private universities are too busy following a core rigid curriculum which provides a steady supply of ``blue-blood`` operational- ``not creative`` managers to feed the local demand.

Forget Pakistan - lets look at the Pakistani Technical professional in the US - hopefully the cream of the crop - Having lived in the valley for a couple of years I can attest to it -

The majority of successful Pakistanis in the local industries here are the Savvy Sales/Marketing types..

One rarely comes across a Pakistani with strong fundamental engineering skills.... One can attend the local Pakistani networking group to see the difference ....- you can see a lot schmoozing sales types - one trying to out do the other . If one was to hold a rigorous technical standard as a prerequisite to membership - barely 2-3 dozen will qualify ......
Pakistanis are conspicuously absent in any of the Technical conferences be it IEEE, ICCAD, DAC etc etc ......- given the fact that there are at least a couple of thousand in the US...


Contrast that with the Indians ... - the majority of Indians in the valley have exceptionally strong technical backgrounds - with clearly defined tangible skills....- who eventually develop the soft skills required for entrepreneurial activity .... Therein lies the problem....

The basic school level curriculum in mathematics and sciences in Pakistan is quite weak... There are no challenger schools - so the rudiments of science and math are just not there - nor is there a culture of creativity - Contrast that with the Indians where academics are ``sincerely respected`` .... In Pakistan it is - and always will be about money ........- that is what defines the ``academic`` culture

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Consequently to correlate the two - academia in Pakistan must be incentivized to be creative....

In many respects Pakistan is like Bihar in India... - the culture is remarkably similar ....

It can be further evidenced by the number of technical papers being published in Pakistani academia - The only EE papers that I saw from Pakistan were from a Professor at Punjab University in Lahore

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Contrast that with the scores of papers being published from China, India - and now even schools in Malaysia & Singapore .....


Does that imply that there is no talent in Pakistan - certainly not - There are many creative people in Pakistan who lack the avenues to succeed where ability is often a liability. I happened to meet a couple of FAST graduates in Karachi - who were just as bright - but who lacked the right mentoring.

Ata ur Rehman cannot do everything - he has done two things which are absolutely essential - He has decentralized education - and attempted to incentivize science and technology if purely on the merits of ``voodoo`` techno-economics. It is not easy to reform the “paindoo” mindset – unless he sees the proverbial “pot of gold” at the end of the rainbow.


Thus Pakistan is poised to produce thousands of techno -donkeys instead of just ``unskilled`` donkeys ... Hopefully that will create the mulch needed to form the nucleus of a ``critical`` mass of skilled technologists ....

Message in the Bubble Burst This article is complete gibberish. - National Education policy cannot be micromanaged by short term fluctuations in industries and/or markets... Ata is trying to the right thing to gear the national education policy towards science and technology- and he correctly highlighting the defciencies of a ``quality`` education. The author of this piece confuses ``quality `` education with a vocational education.... - They are not necessarily the same....

In a culture - where the ``tangibles`` are sacrificed at the alter of supficialities... education is hardly an exception. Education in Government hands has been a disaster in Pakistan - not because Government cant manage education - but because the Pakistani Government cant manage anything. Ata ur REhman should be applauded for tryingto change a culture which is somewhere between Lucy and the Cro-magnon Man...

The Educational institutions -primariy at the professional and Graduate level should become completely autonomous with complete local jurisdiction - so that that the orangutans tha run the Govt donot have the means to intefere in the institutions...

Education policy or for that matter any Macro level policy does not bear fruit in 5-10 years - It will take a generation or more to see tangible results.... MOreover it is not Education alone that determines prosperity - there are several other factors such as political/economic stabilty, a good legal system etc etc before foreign investment starts pouring in ....

When the IIT`s were established in the 50`s in INdia - the quality of their education was not the same as it is today - It took close to 25 years before the IIT`s hit it right and the graduates in the 70`s started competing on an international scale...

Pakistan still has a long way to go - I say more power to Ata and others like him - and damn the naysayers....

Survival of the Fittest
This whole debate is at best rhetorical - The era of nation states is dead - welcome the age of teh MEGA STATE between a UNited Europe, United States, and perhaps later China and INdia other nations will be at the whims and fancy of these larger states....

The other nations can and will be brutalized or subjugated or at best mainupulated - because they lack the critical mass to protect their interests....

Iqbal was right - the stupidity of the muslims is beyond comprehension....
Consequently they will suffer the ravages of the MEGA-STATES.... - Self preservation is an instinct that does not influence the minds of cockroaches - because tehy lack the grey matter to think collectively.....

Uniting Muslims on Eid
I am sure there are 1000 different ways to unite Muslims or a 1000 different causes more worthwhile and closer to the Islamic values we all pretend to adhere to ...... eliminate child labor in Muslim countries.... improve literacy standards... medical care etc etc ...... than to argue about Eid celebrations.....

Perhaps we can look at it another way.... Having two differnt days to offer Eid prayers offer the congregation an alternative to missing the prayer on the first day... ----- Now given our negative mentality some genius is going to counter this by ``CHanging the RELIGION `` argument....

To the proponents of scientific calculation - may I be bold enough to suggest another alternative - perhaps people like to enjoy century old traditions of looking for the moon and relish the unpredictability of the next day being eid or the last fasting day - much like many parents chose to forego the ultrasound to determine the sex of their unborn child....

Perhaps there is a quintesential human trait to enjoy suprises..... Besides Eid is a celebration of our cultural diversity co-existing with monlithic nature of our core beliefs .....it would be a sad day - when diversity gives way to neo-fascist unanimity ......