The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Aisha,

You can hate India, I can hate Pakistan and all of us can hate Madagascar for all the world cares. All of us can feel smug like a bunch of frogs getting sloshed inside a well.

I am glad that India ``divested`` itself of Pakistan and Bangladesh after winning Independence. But I pity those Hindus still left behind. IIRC Hindus constituted 15% of the population of Pakistan around 1947 - today it is about 1%? In Bangladesh they made up 18% of the population which dwindled to 10% within the first decade of independence. While Pakistan drove out its Hindus; the Hindu minority in Bangladesh has been butchered and pillaged and pulverised - the latest pogrom happened when Khaleda Zia took over power in late 2001. Pakistan isn`t mature enough to manage linguistic and geographical diversity within its borders - what to talk of religious diversity. Your country must first become a constitutional democracy however imperfect it may be.

In India regardless of who you are you get to compete as an individual - and thankfully the sane folk greatly outnumber the insane ones. You do not know the Muslims of India - I do.

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Nehru and Patel compromised with Hindu communalists in the Congress? That`s the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Such assertions may make good talk over coffee (or late at night after the nth round of boozing) but do not stand any scrutiny whatsoever.

So then, pray, who were the Hindu communalists in the Congress? If it is a label then let that be.

No single reason or even primary reason can be found for Partition - just as a large mass movement that lead to India`s independence (and consequently the creation of Pakistan) cannot be interpreted in terms of what a few people did or did not.

India fared better because the ``liberal`` or ``constitutional`` strand of thought managed to break clear of at least three different movements. The simple ``spiritual`` small community led anarchic movement of Gandhi. The Fabian and socialist impulses characterised best by Nehru - the Bismarckian or Garibaldi inspired ``nation-building`` movement that inspired the early Revolutionaries (Bengal, Punjab, Maharashtra, TN and many other places) that ended with Savarkar and now inspired Patel. Apart from this we had communist and socialist revolutionary movements as well. But afte the communists betrayed the freedom struggle during the Quit India times, collaborating with the Brits; the revolutionary movement lost much of its legitimacy with JP, Patwardhan and many others breaking ranks for good.

I am not sure who was sresponsible for the first moves towards the Constitutent Assembly. I know that Gandhi personally ensured that Ambedkar got in (it would have been difficult otherwise as he had managed to antagonise everyone with his supercilious ways!). The Muslim League also had representatives on the Assembly but once Partition became inevitable they left. That was a an opportunity missed. It would have made eminent sense if India and Pakistan had jointly drafted a Constitution and used it to run their respective countries. Unfortunately this is around the time that Jinnah`s plans began to unravel. The lust for power got the better of him. While in West Pakistan there were few who could challenge his caliber the Eastern part was a different matter. When Jinnah turned his back on India he was left heading the wrong way. Bereft of sane advice (Gokhale was long dead) and good people (his best friends were in the Congress), the job of recreating his liberal land was too much for him. Besides Jinnah was just a barrister - not a jurist or intellectual by any stretch of imagination. Just as George Washington handed down charge of the Army of the USA to the Congress in 1783; India`s political leaders waited while a Constitution was being written from 1945 to 1949.

In Pakistan there were none of these strands of the movement save one - the quest of the landed aristocracy to regain its jagirs and unfettered right to collect rents - much as it had done during the time of the Mughals. It was an attempt to return to the past - to an obsolete political model which was OK at the time of the Magna Carta - but not any longer. To call this ``Islamism`` is to trifle with Islam. Malaysia and Turkey have done pretty well for themselves - even Bangladesh (well they do have these pogroms once in a while).

There is still hope for Pakistan. Rewrite the Constitution - declare a secular republic - send the Army to the barracks - make a start on civil society - create smaller states or even counties -devolve power to them. Things will work out well. If it has succeeded in India it can`t but succeed in Pakistan.

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Anil,

Institutions aren`t power circuits - I am sure all of us know that. India adopted a parliamentary form of government taking a huge risk - the biggest ever - 50 years ago. We had a unique assemblage of learned folk to give us a modern constitution. The archives of the Constituent Assembly make fascinationg reading. Modern India can claim not only Founding Fathers but also Founding Mothers - as many women participated in making the Constituion. We started with a great deal of plurality and diversity while firmly establishing a contract between the individual and the State - thanks to Ambedkar.

As for ``marginal`` winning political power it is a process that happens all the time. How many know that the recent political battle in UP was an all OBC/Dalit affair? Well you can keep dividing this into Upper OBC and Lower OBC or whatever.

That we have reached Godhra and Ahmedabad after 55 years is disappointing and outrageous. I am equally outraged over Godhra and what followed it. No crime justifies such retaliation against an entire community. This especially when there have been many occasions in the past when this has not happened. I can think of at least 5 such provocative incidents in Kashmir, UP, Punjab and even in Madras (when the RSS office was firebombed killing 6 people) where good sense prevailed, where a thinking mind reasoned, ``Those who committed this crime do not represent their religion. They alone are responsible for what happened.``

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley pmishra2,

there`s an interesting job you may be interested in. HAve you seen our tinpot-banana republic-buffoon who goes by the name of CEO/General Messaraff. There`s a nice picture of him holding his favorite pomeranians. I believe he`s been looking for a lackey to complete his collection. Looking at the usual gargage you usually dish out methinks you would make an ideal lackey. Apply fast and hurry. Prafool Bidwai is already on his way for the interview!!

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley Aisha,

Truth does hurt isn`t it? Especially when you take the trouble to go all the way to bastion of ``liberalism`` onloy to hear to hear some plain talking - and that too - from Indo-American Profs. Your discomfiture is pretty obvious - I can`t help smiling!

Compared to the trash that is dished out in the rags that pass off for newspapers in Pakistan this must be a revelation to you.

You can rant and rave (and there are plenty who will join you) till u r blue in the face. I mean it - you would make a good replacement for the nitwit Shireen Mazari or even your Ambassador in DC.

Stop being petulant. Read the National Review and learn to write.

Oh yeah!!

The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley It seems that there are a few good people - Sumit Ganguly, Chibber, Mohammed Ayoob (MSU - wait till you read him) - who can put forward some simple truths even at UCB.

And of course truth hurts - real hard!

Aisha: If it`s difficult drop it. Get into something else. International relations isn`t your cup of tea. Or else you can turn into another Shireen Mazari and vent your spleen!

Running Naked The author is in error in equating India and Pakistan. To justify PAkistan`s hostility towards India he has conjured up an identical ``hatred`` within India. The rest of the article is so illogial that it is not worth talking about.

Despite all that these apologists (Parvez Hoodbhoy included) talk about the fundamental fact is that every Pakistani hates India and all it stands for. A sense of inferiority, envy, frustration and anger runs deep within the mind and heart of every Pakistani. The talk about ``people-to-people`` contact improving relations is hogwash. Even after 14 years of SAARC and other such sophomoric activity nothing has changed. And war between India and Pakistan is an unequal contest. There will be nothing left of Pakistan once war is over.

Pakistan must grow up and make a fresh start. It must abandon all that it has built up all these years. And for heaven`s sake stop pontificating and preaching to India. You aren`t in the same league

Muslims and The West After 11th September DRUMZ

If u can`t write sense that ain`t my problem. And if u want to make an ass of yourself that ain`t my problem either - I`ll just have a good laugh!

Muslims and The West After 11th September DRUMZ,

Glad to know that you have a weak heart.

May I remind you of a few things?

Gen.Zia ul Haq of the Pakistan Army in Jordan c.1969-71 on assignment - target Palestinian refugee camps - casualties 5,000.

Gen.Tikka Khan and Co. in Bangladesh 1971 - Casualties 1 million in three months - a kill rate better than Stalin`s, Pol Pot`s and Hitler`s!

Gen.Tikka Khan in Balochistan 1972 - Casualties entire villages wiped out.

CEO/President/Gen.Musharraf in Gilgit 1998 - Casualties thousands!

First take care of the mess in your backyard before blaming the Americans. They are soldiers fighting a a war for their country. I am glad that the Hamas. Hizbollah, Al Faran, Hurrrats and others get the idea. Don`t mess around.

This seems the typical reaction of a bully. When you are in power crow about it. When you get hammered complain about ``human rights`` Spare us the sanctimony!

I don`t remember anyone writing about the sack of Bamiyan barely two years ago by the Taliban - which nearly provoked Iran into attacking Afghanistan.

Cricket and the Clash of Cymbals Farzana,

You err. very greatly.

Sachin vs. Vinod or Solkar vs. anyone else is not a question of caste etc.

Vinod`s problem (as was earlier with Solkar) was his fondness for the bottle. There is no doubt that Vinod was a great talent to begin with. But in due course - I don`t have to tll u that as there are plenty of cricket experts on Chowk - his weaknesses became apparent. In other cases a person with discipline might have come out of the trough. Vinod with his drunkennes and general indiscipline never made it. Solkar got many chances not from some ``high-caste`` officio but from a rank outsider Nari Contractor. He was sacked after two warnings when Nari found that Solkar had started drinking before the nets every morning. And Miandad is no counterpart of Vinod or any other ``working class`` lad forom the Indian subcontinent. Javed is simply the most perfect batsman ever. That`s it. It`s the kind of talent that can`t be kept down.

Try as you might it is impossible to overlay a class-religion spin on every contemporary event. BTW I for one still refuse to accept that Azhar was corrupt because I will never forget his electrifying debut, and the way he batted for India when the chips were down. Note no one - exclude loonies please - has linked Azhar`s religion and his complicity.

Yes it is true that we need more cricketers who don`t know English. At least in Tamil Nadu - where I am from - the Iyengars - Kris Srikkanth, S.Ramesh, Venkat and Co. pull the strings. The Mudaliars hate that as they are equally good if not better. But what about those raw colts from Tirunelveli or MAdurai who could run eights around these glass jaws? They can never make it to the State team so they take up hockey. So you have Ganesh, Dhanraj Pillay, and many others. Of course many others get into the Navy too and have become great polo players. The current Naval Chief Admiral GEorge Sushil Kumar as well as one of his predecessors Admiral OS Dawson are both from Tirunelveli!

That`s the way it is. Little point in railing against it. But see how things are changing.

Zaheer Khan goes to be replaced by Iqbal Siddiqui! Ashish Nehra is replaced by Tinnu Yohannan!

A Time for Renewal Urstruly,

before u grow a beard grow some brains!

In 1998, there were gloating ABCNews reports of how the houses on the Indian side of the Kashmir LOC were all shattered or dilapidated (no sense in fixing them because of shelling) while on the TSP side, there were pukka houses right up to the line, no damage. Predictably, ABCnews ``thought`` (I know, an oxymoron) this was a sign of the greatness of TSP, not of the obvious fact that Indian troops avoid shelling civilians.

Unfortunately, ABCnews also reported that the Pak villages across the LOC were populated mostly with ``women`` in veils/burkhas, who looked especially hefty, like the East German Women`s Wresting Team. All with regulation Pak Army boots showing beneath said burkhas.

Some of these ``women`` violated shariah by speaking to the ABC reporter, and bragged that come nightfall, they would sneak across into India to kill Indians.

In the Summer of 1998, there was a lot of shelling of Indian villages, and eventually IA started retaliating, sending over 50,000 POK residents scampering out.

So, you see, the ``villagers`` on the other side are mostly Pak Army anyway - hence the much-ballyhooed claim that a ``woman`` died in the Indian attack. Now that they have been ``exposed`` (see above re: being forced to run away in their undies ) they have decided to wear their Pak Army uniforms so that the next Indian search-and-destroy mission allows them to surrender, rather then being immediately shaheedized. In today`s TSP, these uniforms may be getting pretty expensive, so they don`t want to leave them behind when they run.

Why I am leaving Hi Shah,

RE::

Shah

Reply #: 151

....................................................................................................pennathur

Shah,

I have so many posts ,which post you are experiencing DIFFICULTY COMPREHENDING ,?

Kannadinga is a slang for ppl from Kannada ,You were very eloquent about the Sudha Murthy father & Infosys Krishna murthy & Deshpande .Nothing new you added to my knowledge ,so i m pissed.Thats all

....................................................................................................

Where is kannada? In Ontario? And who is krishna murthy of Infosys?

Keep up the good work your language is improving. Better content is sure to follow.

Why I am leaving Shah,

You must be really angry/ * *ss *d off/etc. to run up that outburst! Tsk! Sigh! In the absence of anything to say all you can do is make some incoherent noises. Your ``rejoinder`` if one can call that is so pathetic that in relative terms fowl scratch is calligraphy, a donkey braying is a capella, and a pig snorting is oratory!

Learn to think straight and write straight. This is Chowk and not speakeasy/dope den!

And pray what is ``kannandinga``?

A Feminist Icon: Phoolan For the benefit of all folks on Chowk something about this Ramayana business in the Courts, SAHMAT, Frontline, Sukumar Muralidharan etc.

SAHMAT put up the ``Ham Sab Ayodhya`` motivated by mischievous intent. Some of the parties involved in the Ayodhya struggle have made Rama out to be the ulimate mythological/historical hero of India - much in the way Iqbal called him ``Imam-e-Hind``. SAHMAT wanted to contribute its mite to the confusion following the 1992 demolition and decided that it would in true Marxist fashion confound the public. It staged an exhibition pictures and text with different ``versions`` of the Ramayana. Naturally one group of people took exception to some of the versions displayed. Now SAHMAT - if it were a responsible organisation - could have done better than to choose the so-called ``Jataka`` version where Rama and Sita are depicted to be siblings. To expect the RSS or VHP to keep quiet about such a depiction was being either naive or condescending. There are atleast around 15 classical variations of the Ramayana in India (many of which were adapted or referred to in Ramanand Sagar`s famous and widely watched TV serial) By choosing the more controversial and less documented ones SAHMAT displayed poor judgement. The Ramayana is studied in India over 16 different languages by people of different faiths. The Tamil Kamba Ramayanam is a classic and is taught right from school - an acknowledged expert on the text is MM Ismail - a former justice of the Madras High Court. As for ``demons`` or ``devils`` being shoen in a different light one has to read Kamban`s description of the death of Vali and the final defeat of Ravana. There is no black or white characterisation of good vs. evil in the narration. There have several contemporary and costume plays based on episodes from the Ramayana. These interpretations are often discussed and explained during ``harikatha kaalakshebam`` in the South- occasions where classical and religious scholars narrate the myths and stories of gods and human beings.

Sukumar doesn`t know what he is talking about when he says that the ``Jataka Ramayana`` predates the ``Valmiki Ramayana``. There is no historical consensus on these matters - if anything these assertions are pure bunk!

In any case Buddhist and Jain folklore have other myths and do not consider the Ramayana to be central to their mythology. All the versions of the Ramayana as narrated and enacted in traditional communities have a few common highlights. There is an official state sanctioned version of the Ramayana that is taught in Indonesian schools which close to the Valmiki version.

The so-called neo Buddhists of India do not ascribe any goodness (leave alone divinity) to Rama. So calling the Jataka version a ``Buddhist`` version is incorrect.

But of course there is a flip side to all this. A Hindus beliefs and sensitivities can be and are discussed in a Court of law in India. And for this no one is going to be struck dead by lightning or condemned to death by some crazed cleric. The Judge who passed this order can work in peace. There will be no Cat Stevens to offer to plunge a knife into the Judge`s back.

A Feminist Icon: Phoolan YLH,

You can scream, shout, rave, rant and write as much as you want to on the Chowk - but Gandhi remains the greatest human being in living memory. A politician among saints and a saint among politicians.

The next time you visit India drop in at the Univ.of Bombay Library (or the National in Calcutta) or one of those large public libraries. You are bound to find all volumes of ``The Harijan`` and ``Young India`` that Gandhi edited/wrote for. It will dramatically enhance your knowledge of the man and actually educate you.

Khuda Hafiz, Kashmir? Asif Naqshabandi,

Nothing would make me happier than to see the Muslims of India doing well. As a matter of fact they are doing pretty well for themselves and do not entertain any thoughts of migrating to Pakistan.

When you get the time just look up the census figures and checkm out the proportion of Hindus in present day Pakistan before 1947 vs. the proportion today. You will learn who is being ``xenophobic`` ``fundamental`` etc.

Don`t you think it is a big slap in your face that Muslim Indians generally give you the cold shoulder and Farzana whom you are trying to dish out kindly dollops to calls the cut-throats of Kashmir aka mujahidung ``terrorists``?

That`s the ultimate insult isn`t it?

When you visit UAE the next time visit Tiffany Foods. Ask them how many Pakistanis they employ.