Fighting in Peace KRASHID #139

Well I am not boasting. And besides it better to have air in your head rather than grasmoke or ....

Don`t ask me to keep quiet about India. Tell McKinsey, Fortune magazine, Kerry Packer, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, RedHat, GE, Juergen Shroeder (German Finanance Minister who is falling at our feet to invite software engineers to Germany). Or the NASDAQ and NYSE chiefs who are camping in India to woo Indian companies to list with them.

In any case Wipro`s MCap is mre then that of the entire Karachi Stock Exchange.

Forget the past! Get real!!

Fighting in Peace Farangi Kush

We have a proverb in Tamil which says, suitably translated ``How much ever you try to dress it up, a donkey can`t become a horse``

Kee your half-baked notions to yourself.

No. On second thught air them here. It is good laugh!!

What’s the future of India and Pakistan? Dear Ali1,

Every card pack must have a fe jokers! So Pakistan which otherwise has some fine peple )like the people who run this site) also has a few guys who don`t brush their teeth or trim their nails or .....

Anyway can`t expect much from an alumnus of Jehaad Madrassa and Cutthroat College.

Where are you writing from? Under Brooklyn Bridge hanging out with some dopeheads!?

Fighting in Peace Dear Ali1,

You asked for it. Re Saxena. You are suffering from a bad case of Aesopis Foxitis Souris. In other words SOUR GRAPES!!!

Wit half of Silicon Valley being run by Indians and what with Oracle serving Idli and Sambar every morning for breakfast you sure must be feeling left out.

The reasoning at the US Consulate going by your logic must be pretty simple.

1 Indian with fake certificates is better than 10 Ali1 types with certificates from Jehad Madrassa and Cutthroat College!!

Pipe down buddy. If you can`t beat us, don`t worry, we won`t let u join us either!!

What’s the future of India and Pakistan? Dear Roopam,

War for India may have been a costly alternative some time back. Not any longer. The country is well on its way to a 10% growth rate. As I have posted earlier on this forum India is ahead of Pakistan politically, economically (a higher per capita GDP-absolute and Purchasing Power Parity) and socially. And the rate at which India`s economy is progressing States like Maharashtra, and the Southern States will EACH begin drawing more FDI than all of Pakistan put together. A company like Wipro`s market cap is more than that of the entire Karachi Stock Exchange!

But then it`s still no big deal for a country like India. I don`t feel very proud about being better of than Pakistan. I would be much happier if we were better off than at least Malaysia.

The educational sector is booming what with people like Kanwal Rekhi and Narayanamurthy committing US$400 million for the top 25 technical educational centres in India!! In a recent poll by Asiaweek IIM-Ahmedabad has been rated Asia`s BEST MBA SCHOOL! With this sort of progrees in human capital there is no reason to be defensive.

LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR - I DO NOT ADVOCATE WAR, BUT I AM PRETTY CLEAR THAT INDIA MUST PROJECT A PICTURE OF DETERRENCE. All these years India has only been interested in defending itself against external agression. That is changing now! And believe me there`s plenty left over for growth. As the government is gradually exiting the manufacturing sector.

The change in attitude must come from Pakistan. China and India have decided to defer the border dispute until the next generation comes to power in both countries. Pakistan must do the same instead of frittering away its scarce resources on maintaining an aggressive posture against India.

Only then can it hope to compete with India ecnomically. World status does not come ONLY from size or nuclear weapons - although these factors do play a part. But when it is backed with a resilient economy and a strong government people do sit up and take notice. While we see this in India the world at large (when it has the time) doesn`t see it in Pakistan. And since the India sub-continent is way down on the Western media`s priirities it means that the scope for negative publicity for Pakistan is even greater!

And that`s such a pity because Pakistan is by an large a progressive nation with people who are as good as any other in the world. If only they would work towards a practical and secular order and usher in democracy. Well, then things could change!

Fighting in Peace Dear Sigalph, ylh, and the author Aisha,

You can keep repeating till you are stuck.

The fact is.

1. The plebiscite cannot be held until Paksitan vacates its occupation of Enslaved Kashmir - According to the UN Resolution; which is now not even worth the paper it`s written on; it is only Pakistan`s part of Kashmir that is occupied. If you don`t know about it ask Flt.Lt.Burney(Retd.) of the PAF or read him in www.defencejournal.com.

2. Second for those kindly souls (Harish included) who talk of the ``third option`` for Kashmir. Of the 7 million who live in Indian JK, only 4 million live in the valley. The rest are scattered over the rest of the State. The population of a large Indian town town. If the guys want land in addition to their sinecure, exit visas are available to everyone concerned. In any case independence is no option for any part of the former British India. How much ever Shabbir Shah, Yaseen Malik and others might scream. Amanullah Khan of the JKLF having expeienced the ``hawa and lath`` of Pakistan is ready to back India knowing how keen non-desi Pakistan is ready to grab Kashmir into its fold and deprive it of any semblence of identity.

3. Contrary to what we think, the Indian sub-continent is still way down on the Western media and liberal`s popular agenda and Kashmir is still lower. It`s only of late that interest has begun to perk up and naturally it`s because of media value the region holds in terms of its Miss Worlds and Universes (once in a blue moon) Otherwise no one gives a damn about what happens here. That has always suited India fine because we can keep stamping out the terrorist vermin (or bandits as Russia/China) would call them. Pakistan errs in making a big noise over this issue. Intervention in JK because of human rights violation!!!!????!!!!????? Not when it`s a part of the world`s largest democracy! And frankly whether YLH and co. accept it or not no one gives a damn!

4. The world has left behind the Indian sub-continent long back especially after the meteoric growth of SE Asia during 1965-95. India realised it rather late and is doing something about it. And IS DEFINITELY AHEAD of Pakistan economically in Annual Per Capita GDP both absolute and PPP ($2125 in India compared to Pak`s $1850) and growth. Recent statistics about health indicators notwithstanding, the well run States of India are economically and socially better performers compared to Pakistan. That`s why a state like Chandrababu`s Andhra Pradesh outstrips Pakistan in FDI! And Wipro`s market cap is more than that of the Karachi Stock Exchange!!!!

5. Of course ylh - you guys do have a better cricket team these days. But India`s got the money (bookie or otherwise) and that`s why Afridi and Dravid are collaborating to set up a Sports Management Agency.

6. Get real and get working. And dear ylh there`s a lot of work to be done in Pakistan. So when are you planning to get back and do something for your country?

7. Dear Aisha,

Please update your file with Pictures of the latest explosion at Maulana Ansari`s meeting.

Fighting in Peace Dear YLH,

Sorry to disappoint you about the UN Resolution about the Plebiscite in Kashmir. This is what it says!

1. Pakistan should vacate all areas occupied by it in the year 1948. Which means the boundaries you see on Indian maps muest be restituted.

2. All non-indegenous settlers are to pack up and get out. BTW in Swatantra Kashmir (that`s the Indian side) no non-Kashmiri can own landed propoerty. So same rules to apply. You must give up that idea of a dacha in Enslaved Kashmir!!

3. The plebiscite will be held by India who will then either go by the results or choose any other means to determine the mandate! No role for the UN and definitely not a busy body - aka - YLH

4. And then there are only two choices India or Pakistan. Sorry. Those who thought of enjoying a free meal at the expense of tax-payers like me (in the best traditions of lazy b * *s like Shabbir Shah and Yaseen Malik, just forget it!

OK big boy round the block ylh when shall we start?

Fighting in Peace I have been through Coleridgian experience last night. Like the poet who penned those few lines of the poem about Kubla Khan and his Xanadu and then forget the rest.

I drafted a careful para-by-para reply to the author off-line. And then when I uploaded it back on-line, I got a message that some of my words are unacceptable or some such thing. Puzzled, because this piece of writing has enough ill-reasoned stuff. Anyway here goes. My reply is in `` ``

````does it contain pix of the innocents who were gunned down in Chattisinghpora, young Ahsan who hobbles around legless after having lost them to an IED in Srinagar when he was but a child of three. Or those poor laborers who are gunned down or have their throats slit at night or those numerous Kashmiri women who are used by the `freedom fighters`, or those pandits who live in refugee slums in Delhi after having been thrown out of JK. Or those indegenous people who were killed in Gilgit a couple of years back by the Pak Govt forces.````

````So you have read the UN resolution? good. So how about clearing out of Enslaved Kashmir and letting India conduct the plebiscite? As for the Lahire Resolution as we say in India, Mooh mey Ram, bagal mey choori````

````The first of those horribly mixed metaphors.````

````Actually that`s how it used to be before the killers, and other unpardonable folks from Jalalabad, Sudan, Bosnia, Chechnya, the jails of Pakistan started pouring into India. Ask my wife and thousands of other Indians who have visited JK between 1950 and 1990. Or those houseboat owners on Dal Lake, the pony hirers at Gulmarg and a host of others. Anyway at this moment the mujahi-dung, are trying to see that the history of 1950-90 is never repeated!!````

````Terribly mixed metaphor. A lot of gas that doesn`t mean a thing````

``````It`s pretty evident who did this. Operation takeover in 1948, Operation Grandslam and Gibraltar in 1965. Just take a look at the mirror``````

``````Eeeeks!! Now that`s not mixed up but a mangled mass of metaphors! And dear frinds you use a parachute not to fly - but when you stop flying!``````

``````And pray how does a nation `cater to for the quality of its thinker`s minds`? Food for thought perhaps. Haw Haw HAw``````

``````You won`t be around if you continue to write such awful prose!``````

``````There goes Dexter again!``````

``````You see if you don`t like India it`s fine. It`s normal to be prejudiced. And it`s OK to say so. Your like or dislike doesn`t matter. For one thing there are lots of reasonable Pakistanis on this forum who are quite well disposed towards India. And that`s all that matters.``````

``````It`s never too late to stop. Good you got the idea!!``````

``````Definitely. But if you busy messing around someone else`s backyard when God knocks at your door, who`s to blame?``````

``````For some one who hasn`t been around for a long time by her own admission, it`s pretty presumptuous to talk of `facts```````

``````Good idea.``````

``````Internalise!!!??? Whaever do you mean?````````

``````You can be one without the other``````

``````Sure keep your feet firm on the ground. But see to it that your head is not buried in the sand``````

Fighting in Peace There we again!! Omarphoney-x, Farangi, etc. Sour grapes what else?

I don`t know Azim Premji although I met him many years back. I have worked with his wife Yasmin at the Business India Group of Publications. I have a number of Muslim Indian Clients. My mentor in HRD Consulting is a Muslim. I have lived and grown up with Muslims all my life in India. The most ridiculous thing that one can say is ``token Muslim``. Actually the Muslims of India have little time for such claptrap that starts with people like Syed Shahabuddin MP, to people like Imam Bukhari.

Fighting in Peace For a real good article on Kashmir refer The Hindu dt/31/05/00 for an article by Prof.Hari Om about the mess in JK`s finances. A pampered population of 7 million survives entirely on tax-payers money contributed by the rest of India. A large mass of lazy-good-for-nothings.

Jagmohan`s ``My Frozen Turbulence`` also details some of the more sordid happenings of the assorted riff-raff such as the Mirwaiz and others thru the 1960s and 70s. The reaction in the form of terrorism is also because of the State cutting out the largesse.

C`mon get honest and put in some hard work like the rest of India.

Touch Dear Naqshbandi,

 ``really dont see why people seem so much against Islamic

  time-honoured rituals and yet still say `we are Muslims`.

  To disparage a single sunnat of the Messenger of Allah

  is kufr...``

That is the problem. When you say something like that there is no room for discussion, debate or questioning. That is the final word. So why not accept the same reasoning for some other custome or ritual?

Touch I have witnessed animal being sacrificed and found it too gory. Years back in 1971 I had been to Guwahati in Assam when my parents used to be stationed there. A trip to the Kamkhya Temple is a must for every visitor to the city. There is a superstition that you will return in grief if you do not visit the temple.

Goats are sacrificed every morning from 8 to 12. And during Dussehra they sacrfice buffalos.(Dussehra celebrates the destruction of the demon Mahisha at the hands of Goddess Durga. Mahisha took the form of every possible animal as Durga tried to destroy him. Finally when he was ``morphing`` into a buffalo, Durga killed him. And as it happens with every mythical evil-doer in Hinduism death at the hands of the Gods guarantees you salvation!!)

And for some strange reason that day my father decided to take us up to the temple in the morning. I was very keen to watch the goats being cut up. My younger sister who was barely five had already seen it and was describing it gleefully.

When I entered the temple it was suddenly all so different. Being used to the temples of the South (where the only sacrfice is a coconut) I found something amiss. It was a faint odor I wasn`t used to. (I turned non-vegetarian only at 20. I relish all meat but one day-I don`t know when- I will turn vegetarian)

Sticky walkways, and the smell of goats and the sight of them being dragged around. And then I came to the slaughter-hall and it was a horrendous sight. Goat after goat being chopped up. I saw the first one and then the second and then it was too much. I couldn`t bear to stand there and presently burst out of the place. Somehow my father convinced me to visit the shrine. That afternoon I must have showered at least 5-6 times in a Lady Macbethian fashion. But that faint odor and feel of the place never left me for the next few days.

After that every year we would visit the temple but only in the afternoon.

Hindus sacrifice animals even today. In Nepal animals are sacrficed at most temples excepting the Sri Narayana temple in Kathmandu. In Bali every species of animal found is offered at times of the year. In India itself chickens are offered in some parts of the country. The Himachalis and Gorkhas sacrifice buffalos. But it is becoming rarer by the day - simply because it is getting to be an expensive habit. It`s so much simpler to break a coconut (which BTW are ersatz)

The classic temple design still has a Bali Pitham - or sacrificial block - a table made of stone on which the animal is to be killed. Of course today it is just used to break coconuts!

With all apologies to my Muslim friends on Chowk. I find such a contrast between the two Eids - Eid-ul-Fitr and Eid-ul-Azha - in the way it is practiced.

One fasts during the month of Ramzan and as some Muslim friends tell me one must not only fast but also try to keep the mind free from anger, jealousy and lead a life of moderation. Whereas at the other Eid we find an uncaring attitude towards dumb creatures. How is it that the piety and gentleness of Ramzan becomes transformed into cruelty during Eid-ul-Azha? What happens to a child who grows up with these conflicting emotions?

And for the umpteenth time - must we cling obstinately to a literal interpretation? Does God really, really intend us to be this way? The answer cannot be found from what has been said or written earlier. The answer can only be found within ourselves. I know I run the risk of sounding blasphemous. But then I am clear. My communion with God is primarily within my Self. And that is the ultimate test. It does not matter who says what or threatens me with whatever consequences. I for one do not believe that God and his saints and messengers are so fragile that they require protection from defamation. If God is Truth, Love and Purity nothing can defile Him/her/it.

Touch Anarayan - Touche - Yes the Buddha advocated ahimsa - non-violence - which was interpreted to mean being vegetarian among other things. Buddhist monks - bikshus - are expected to abstain from meat of any sort as well as wine and other intoxicants. My father-in-law a Bengali (I am Tamil) is very clear why Pakistan produces better sportsmen than India - they eat beef! So when I ask him, ``How come Pakistan loses to us - once in a while - or to Australia! Maybe it`s because of pork!!??!!`` BTW Srinath eats bird and beast, flesh and fowl alike after much persuasion. Prakash Padukone too turned non-vegetarian after his All England victory. But by then he was already a waning star.

Touch There`s nothing that decrees Hindus must be vegetarian.

Some Hindus started turning vegetarian - it is said - only after the advent of Buddha. Buddha himself only advocated vegetarianism. He was not one himself and is popularly believed to have died after eating some stale pork.

Most Brahmins are vegetarian - except the ones in Eastern India, the Saraswats and the Kashmiris and Himachalis. Being the most orthodox in their beliefs they have not turned vegetarian. Barring them, Hindus as a rule are non-vegetarian-except the Gujarati Hindus.

Yes plants too are living beings. But when you pluck a part of the plant the plant does not die. Plants definitely have feelings in their own way - as Dr.Jagdish Chandra Bose demonstrated from his research.

Solitude - the Hindu friend you are referring to must be a Jain. The Sikhs believe that an animal must be eaten only if it has been killed with a single stroke - ``jhatka``. And in a Gurdwara you will not find them serving meat or eggs - and the langar is delicious nevertheless!

Most Hindus I know and even Muslims and Christians avoid - no abhor - beef. Many Muslim communities like the Khojas, Bohras and Memons have given up beef in deference to the wishes of their Hindu bretheren. Many other Muslims who are quite conservative in their beliefs too do not eat beef. As for the Christians who have converted from Hinduism only a few generations back will not touch beef.

I have a number of Muslim friends who are vegetarian. Some others who are non-vegetarian do not perform the ritual sacrifice either at home or anywhere else. They tell me that they do not believe in a literal interpretation.

The belief that one must be a meat eater to be a Muslim is quite possibly Indian and meant more in jest.

I have been told of many Sufis and Muslim Holy men in the days gone by, who lived on berries and fruits.

The injunction about ``halal`` meat is logical when you consider the times in which it was said. Even earlier than the Muslims the Jews said much the same. For a pepple who are constantly on the move in a barren land it is not possible to maintain hygenic facilities to process or store food. Draining the blood of a slaughtered animal ensures that all contaminants are removed. The alternative would be to wash the carcass - not possible when you have little water. The injunction to avoid the flesh of animals that have been strangled or fallen to their death or been killed by another animal is sound. Who knows how old the carcass is and what other hand has sullied it? But then all that today when we have the equipment?

There is some evidence to believe that well settled agrarian communities have eschewed meat in favor of a vegetarian diet. Egypt, Persia, parts of Greece, and in many parts of India, agricultural produce was easy to grow and plentiful - sunshine and water throughout the year.

Touch Must one go by a literal interpretation of what has been said? Animals are not a lesser creation. It is not human life vs. other living forms but life vs. life. Though brought up a vegetarian I relish meat of all sorts. But this year when my neighbours sacrificed a goat it was heart-rending. It is self-indulgent to use an animal to commemorate the occasion of our piety. All communities have been through these practices. At first we would offer human sacrifice (it still happens) and then moved a little ahead to animals. If we must how about just chopping up a white pumpkin or breaking a coconut? The metaphor is intact.

It`s not very godly to demand my own child as proof of my devotion. Is it any better than demanding that I follow a certain ritual or maintain a certain taboo or maintain my endogamous purity or maintain my professional calling till eternity merely because it is decreed somewhere. Where is Prometheus?

Pagans and Competitive Conversions Dear Murad,

Instead of trying to define Hinduism how about trying to experience it?

Hinduism is a Pagan/Heathen/Kafir practice and is no different from animism or the numerous ``tribal`` faiths of India. The Puranas say that there are 330 million gods and goddesses (at least that`s how many who attended the wedding of Shiva and Parvati!). Hindu practice and custom is so vast and varied that it is impossible to categorise it.

So what if tribals don`t worship Shiva and Vishnu. A number of Hindus do not either. There are a number of Ishtadevatas (favourite deities) that anyone can turn to. In Tamil Nadu where I am from my ancestral village has its own gatekeeping deity - the local Ayyanar - who must be worshipped before one enters the village. Many of the popular deities of today have multiple origins. Kartik the son of Shiva is closely linked to Murugan an ancient Tamil deity who is said to have inhabited the mountains. Krishna is related to the herdsman`s deities in the North as well as TamilNadu`s Mayon - a deity who protected the crops from the rain. Every region of India has its own sub-plots to add to the Ramayan and Mahabharat. There are classical as well as folk and tribal versions.

Hindus aren`t necessarily tied to the Vedas. In fact you are unlikely to find the Vedas in print in the house of the typical Hindu, North, South, East or West. If you come to TamilNadu you may find the Vishnu Sahasranamam or Tiruppavai. In UP you may find the Ramcharitamanas and in Bengal the GitaGovindam if not the easier to read works of Sri Ramakrishna and Vivekananda.

Brahmins - there again I gotcha - aren`t integral to the practice of Hinduism. Some families involve them in all ceremonies, some others in a few and yet others rarely at all. And then which Brahmin are we talking about. I am a Tamil Brahmin who was brought up on a vegetarian diet (no eggs please). My  Bengali Brahmin mother-in-law will eat fish and mutton but no chicken or eggs! And my Kashmiri Brahmin friends will eat most vegetables -except onions and garlic- mutton, but no fish, chicken or pork! To imagine that this diverse bunch actually retarded India`s progress is fanciful! The Brahmins aren`t a monolithic group of people. Few outside the ambit of caste know that every caste considers itself the most important or worthiest. The system has been perverted and is already in decline. I am sure that it will wither away in the decades to come.

The Hindu ritual is aimed at ensuring a happy life on earth for oneself and his/her progeny. The Hindu`s concept of heaven and hell is allegorical at best. There is no concept of blasphemy. And to be struck dead by God is the ultimate salvation!

A number of neo-Pagan movements have sprung up in Europe of late. They are turning to Hinduism to find their philosophical moorings. The Shiva temple that is coming up in Kauai, Hawaai, courtesy the Shaiva Siddhanta Church has shrines dedicated to the local deities. Hindus as a rule neither approve nor disapprove anything absolutely and definitely not because some scripture says so! Ethics are to be created by the human being and must lead to the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

A number of ``hindu`` organisations have been working with the tribal populations of India. The Vanvasi Kalyan Kendra runs 1000s of schools all over India. Some of the BJP`s scheduled tribe MPs are alumni of these schools.