Pak Fauj ke NaPak Generals No, not that hopeless. Proof.

Good news, and bad
Kamran Shafi
The News
2006-08-19
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=20363

First things first then, and because the matter was spoken of much in this column, good on the ISI high command / the big general himself for taking action against the officers who acted badly in the case concerning Brig Taj Mohammad SJ And Bar and his family. The grapevine tells me a colonel has been dismissed from service while two majors had their contracts cancelled.

Whilst that is good and well, as my friend Ashraf Afridi used to say, why is it that this disciplinary action against people who surely overstepped the bounds makes us felicitate the powers? Why am I giving them kudos for something that should come naturally and fast and as soon as the transgression happens? Specially in an organisation as sensitive, and as prone to criticism as the ISI, and which should show alacrity in stamping out anything that gives it a bad name?

That is because ``agencies`` as powerful as the ISI, think with some justification that they are superior to everyone else, and that therefore they are beyond reproach. Neither is it only the ISI: virtually any important government department in this country thinks it is above the law. Their justification for thinking so comes from the fact that they are often used by governments to further their own political imperatives -- sort of like, if I may take liberties with the old adage, ``you scratch my back and I`ll look the other way``. Anyway, reason to be happy that at long last, action has been taken against its own by an important Pakistani state actor.

One very important point: you and I are as Pakistani as the army, the ISI, what have you. Why then the need for such extreme secrecy (I mean it is not as if the agency`s operational plans were involved) for so many weeks, and then the leaks that action had been taken against the transgressors? Indeed, the secrecy was so great that we do not even now know the names of two of those that sullied the name of the ISI and of the Pakistan Army. What was the harm in announcing in the full light of day, the start of the inquiry proceedings against the culprits and then giving periodic updates through the ISPR on the progress of the case? Why the big secret? I mean if elected ex-prime ministers can be dragged through the mud on live TV every other day by sitting ministers no less, why can`t the names of junior ISI officers who prove too big for their boots be revealed? It is also to be noted that if the affair had been opened to public scrutiny it would have died a quicker death rather than be debated for weeks in the press.

Am I Insane? Dear Emma:

<< Belonging to an educated family unlike my in-laws (just rags to riches) I have a sophisticated way of doing things. It may seem normal to many of you but having three course meals with starters is not a trend with my in laws! They labelled me too modern and outgoing. New York maybe in America but for everyone but my in laws, they think it is in Pind Dhadan Khan. >>

Is it possible that this attitude of yours is one of the many reasons rupturing your marriage?? Three course meals with starters as a daily domestic routine really don’t seem normal to me. I can guarantee that it doesn’t seem normal to the overwhelming majority of the Pakistanis.
Three course meals with starters, two, if not three times a day, is not only gluttonous, it will surely make one weigh over 100 kgs in 6 months time. I hope [and assume] you are not obese.

Don’t you think that comments like these would repel most regardless of the gender of the addressee?

<< When I asked my brother what would happen if I decide to leave Jawad and how my decision would affect his marriage, he replied, “I love my wife and two daughters but I also love you, if you come back. She goes back!``>>

Your family supposed to be sophisticated!? The mindset of your brother vividly shows the level of sophistication in your family.

<< Yes I made the mistake of getting married in a “Watta Satta”. >>

Romair has already explained this stupid concept of Watta Satta. Your case cannot be sorted under this caption.

Finally, this is your version of the story. Would you like to add anything, I repeat any single thing that even you might have done wrong?

Are you Insane? The details available are not enough to have a decision.
Confused: Probably, if you have to make an opinion out of this write-up.
Snobbish: Sure. I can bet about it.

Take care

Gang-rape in Sui Mystery shrouds doctor’s rape case

Hasan Mansoor
The government, police and the PPL management seem to have joined hands to ensure that the truth of Shazia`s rape is kept from the media and the public
The Friday Times
Jan 28-Feb 3, 2005

While the government has indicated that it would allow the DNA test of the army officer suspected of raping Dr Shazia Khalid Khwaja in the hostel of the Sui Field Hospital, events so far have only served to deepen the mystery and indicated that officials might be trying a cover-up.

Immediately after news of the alleged gang rape broke out, Dr Shazia was shifted from Sui to Karachi and has so far not been allowed to speak with the media or human and women’s rights organisations. A judge of the Balochistan High Court flew to Karachi to record the doctor’s statement which he did at an undisclosed location and then returned to Quetta as quietly as he had flown to Karachi.

What most observers find surprising is that the government and its agencies are trying hard to keep the doctor away from the media. Newspaper and TV channels were not informed about the presence of the judge or where the doctor was made to depose before the one-man tribunal of Justice Ahmed Khan Lashari. The contents of her statements also remain unknown, making analysts question the reasons for her prolonged silence.

Even more objectionable is the attitude of the management of Pakistan Petroleum Limited (PPL). The incident happened in a heavily guarded perimeter. Not only that it did happen despite security, the PPL management would not allow the local police to enter the perimeter and investigate the incident or talk to the victim. A preliminary investigation report submitted by the local police questions the role of PPL officials at the Sui field and accuses them of covering up the incident in an attempt to protect the ‘real’ culprits.

The report says the PPL officials did not help the police contact the victim immediately after the rape either to examine her or to record her statement. The report also alleges that the victim was shifted to Karachi against police advice. The report revealed that while police officials tried to record the statements of some nurses, two lady doctors of the hospital and other PPL staff on duty, the PPL management did not cooperate with investigating officials. Sources say the PPL tried to sweep the matter under the carpet by shifting Shazia from Sui to a Karachi psychiatry hospital immediately after the rape.

According to another report prepared by the police, PPL officials initially claimed that the case was one of theft. This claim was, of course, immediately struck off by the Naseerabad district police whose report also questioned how could the victim be moved from Sui to Karachi if she were unconscious – which was the reason provided by the PPL management for why Shazia was unable to give a statement – and why she could not give a statement if she had indeed been in a state in which she could travel.

Sources say Shazia was shifted to the Karachi hospital as an “acutely depressed and traumatised” person for the treatment of a mental illness. “PPL officials who escorted her to the hospital tried to provide an incorrect medical history of the patient to the hospital,” a source told TFT. “The doctors at the hospital became suspicious after finding several inconsistencies in the statements of the PPL staff who brought Shazia to the hospital. They finally called her relatives and were told that she had been raped,” added the source.

It was after this that the private hospital suggested that Shazia be moved to a government hospital for her medico-legal examination. She later underwent medical examination at the police surgeon’s office where it was confirmed that she had been raped. The medico-legal examiners found bruises on her writs and ankles suggesting that she had been tied with a wire-like thing. Contusion marks and nail-scratches were also found on different parts of her body. The report also confirmed that more than one person was involved in the rape.

Keeping in mind PPL’s attitude towards the police, the district coordination officer of Naseerabad, Abdul Samad Lasi, told TFT that the police had registered two FIRs in the case: one against the culprits involved in the rape and another against the doctors at the PPL who had covered up the incident.

However, the police that initially protested the PPL’s cover-up is now itself involved in keeping the truth about Shazia’s case away from the media. The efforts of journalists to get inside her Clifton apartment remain unsuccessful in the presence of heavily armed guards. In fact, it is not just the police that has been deputed to keep a watch on the building but several agencies have also been tasked to keep the media away from the premises.

A close relative of Shazia who recently visited Karachi to distribute cards for a family wedding told TFT that he had not been able to meet Shazia but that conversations with the rest of her family showed that they were greatly disturbed by the situation “Shazia’s family have stopped watching television due to the fear of what they might hear or see in speculative reports,” said Shazia’s relative. “They are already quite disturbed by a report that appeared in a Sindhi newspaper in which the names and addresses of each member of the family were published, making it difficult for them to maintain social relations with close relatives and family members residing in their native village,” he added.

Recently, Shazia’s husband Khalid Khwaja told the secretary general of the Pakistan Medical Association, Dr Shershah Syed, that the family was frightened that feudal elements in Khairpur would try to kill Shazia as a kari.

“I could not meet Shazia at her house but I have talked to her husband on the telephone a few times,” Dr Syed told TFT. “Khalid has requested that I arrange for Shazia to leave the country if it means her life will be saved.”

“This fear is unfounded because Shazia’s family and community in Khuhra have no connections with the feudal lords; they are business people who own shops and small pieces of land used for mango farming,” said an observer. “Certainly, those that her family claim want to kill her have no blood relation with her.”

However, the family’s concern for Shazia’s life has prompted NGOs from western countries to take interest in the case and offer to help save her life by arranging for Shazia to leave the country. “We are in contact with all concerned parties and are hopeful that we will succeed in protecting her,” Syed said. “If she is facilitated by these NGOs and goes abroad, the government will be relieved of the burden of protecting her.”

Information gathered from Sindh and Balochistan suggests that the public is not at all pleased with the fact that Shazia is in the undeclared custody of the authorities while the army captain who has been accused of raping her is being given the opportunity to appear on state-run as well as private television channels and declare his innocence.

“Circumstances suggest that Shazia is not wilfully silent; she is most probably being forced to remain silent,” Ali Hasan Chandio, a Sindhi nationalist and vice chairman of the Sindh Taraqqi Pasand (progressive) Party told TFT.

We Don’t Need You Shaukat Aziz Apropos Shaukat Aziz drawing no salary
By Amir Wasim
http://www.dawn.com/2004/08/12/nat1.htm

ISLAMABAD, Aug 11: Pakistan Muslim League-N information secretary has accused prime minister-designate Shaukat Aziz of violating elections rules and the Constitution by what he called ``deliberately concealing`` details of his assets in his nomination papers , submitted for contesting by-elections.

Our Staff Reporter Khaleeq Kiani adds: Shaukat Aziz has paid a total of Rs15,876 income tax during the last three assessment years against his declared assets of over Rs3.7 billion.

The finance minister, along with his nomination papers, filed last month the statement of his assets and liabilities as of June 2003, although he was required under section 12(2) (f) of the Election Rules to file his statement of assets as of June 2004.

According to Mr Aziz`s declaration of assets, his domestic as well as foreign bank accounts, other sources of income and the value of his assets, have remained unchanged for the last two years. Seemingly, he is not drawing salary as finance minister and he is spending nothing.

The statement of assets and liabilities filed by the finance minister to the Election Commission of Pakistan suggest that he paid an income tax of Rs4,908 in assessment year 2003-04, Rs1,854 in 2002-03 and Rs9,114 in 2001-02.

A petition was filed by a freelance journalist Shahid Orakzai before the Chief Election Commission here on Tuesday under Article 62 of the Constitution and section 108(2) read with section 103 of the Representatives of the People Act of 1976.

The minister was not available to explain despite repeated calls. The petitioner drew the attention to the two statements of assets and liabilities by the finance minister, published in the Gazette of Pakistan and submitted along the nomination papers which has an intervening period of more than one year.

He said the balance in an unidentified account in Citibank, New York, is given as $2,912,348 on June 30, 2003 and exactly the same amount is shown in the account on July 6, 2004.

Further the deposit in an account in Lloyds, London on June 30, 2003, was shown to be pound sterlings 310,388,57 and is now showy barely as 310,388 sterlings. If the last two digits, i.e. 57 represented a fraction or was a typographical error, the operational status of this account is almost the same.

The current account (2238-59) at HBL, Islamabad, shows a balance of Rs580,393 and this account, too, apparently remained unchanged. A saving account (5700684018) at Citibank, Islamabad shows a balance of Rs145,467 and this account has not moved by a digit during the period in question.

The balance in an account, identified as foreign exchange (FE) 25 accounts at Citibank, Islamabad, was shown as $761.62 and the same now stands at $761.00. All these bank accounts have not been operated during the last one year.

The petitioner contends that since the minister did not have any other declared account inside Pakistan, the question arises as to how did he meet his expenses during the period between June 2003 and July 2004 if he did not operate a single account.

It may be noted that he had shown a sum of Rs5,000 in his purse on October 15, 2003, and on July 6, 2004, once again, he had exactly the same amount in his pocket. ``That is sufficient to prove that he has other sources of income which he did not declare in the latest nomination forms``, he alleged.

The petitioner said the minister paid Rs40,000 to his party as the fee for the two party tickets for NA-59 and NA-229 and also deposited Rs4,000 each as security for each nomination.

He contended that from where did he receive the money because the withdrawal was not shown on his bank record. He said the election campaign of the minister was going on with great pomposity but it was not known who was financing this when he was not using his own money.

Dear readers, draw your own conclusions

In Condom Country An interesting subject.
Especially, I am amused to read the long range of functions it can fulfill [and already fulfilling in our part of the world]. Some of them were really new to me. Anyways some short stories:

What are you doing
Late one night, little Johnny woke up to the some loud noises coming from his parents` bedroom. He got out of bed and walked down the hall towards his parents room. Before he made it to the end of the hall, the noises had ceased and the bathroom light had gone on..
Little Johnny walked into the bathroom and saw his father removing a used condom..
``Daddy, what are you doing?`` asked little Johnny..
His father looked around nervously wondering what he could tell his son..
I, um, I`m just checking out the bathroom for mice.`` Replied his father..
Johnny looked at his father with a gaze of confusion and said,
``Well, what are you doing? Fuc king them?``

---

Men`s Ages:
1. Between the ages of 18 and 32...Tri-weekly.
2. Between the ages of 32 and 50...Try, weekly.
3. Over 50...Try, weakly.

---

Little Johnny was sitting in class doing math problems when his teacher picked him to answer a question..
``Johnny, if there were five birds sitting on a fence and you shot one with your gun, how many would be left ?``
``None.``, replied Johnny. ```cause the rest would fly away.``
``Well, the answer is four,`` said the teacher. ``But I like the way you are thinking.``
Little Johnny said, ``I have a question for you now. If there were three women eating ice cream cones in a shop, one licking her cone, the second biting her cone, and the third one sucking her cone, which one is married?
Well,`` said the teacher nervously, ``I guess the one sucking the cone?``
``No,`` said Little Johnny, ``the one with the wedding ring on her finger. But I like the way you are thinking..

---

Harassment
Teacher: Use ``harassment`` in a sentence..
Johnny: Her mouth said `no`, but her ass meant `yes`..

Chain of Command Dear friends,

I have always said and believed that the current lot of generals (Yahya onwards) are products of shahi mohalla and fit for its business only, at best. To fight is beyond the expertise and courage of this disgusting lot. A proof:

... ``General Aslam Beg`s attempt at glasnost when he invited the media to cover the Zarb-e-Momin exercise across the Punjab, provided us much food for thought: clearly this was one army whose top generals were not interested in war. Desperate to use the loo, two other women journalists and I sneaked into the caravan assigned to one general. We had seen him in the dining area and assumed it was safe to enter.
It was quite a revelation. The grandeur of makeshift living quarters - and that too during a military exercise - was nothing short of mind-boggling. Nothing, it seemed, was too much for the generals` comfort. After I wrote a piece on the experience, my father, a soldier from the old school, was shell-shocked: was the army really only using mineral water? And that was the least of it. If only the photographs we took had been published! As for the rest of my information, that fell prey to the editor`s brief regarding word count.`` ...

From
Decades of Living Dangerously
Journalism can be a dangerous business and a heady experience, says Mariana Baabar the diplomatic correspondent for The News and the Islamabad correspondent for The Outlook.

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2004/guestaug2004.htm

Train to Pakistan 2004 - Heading Back #9 by veeresh on August 1, 2004 8:29pm PT
*** the poor in Pakistan, from what I understand, are simply not allowed to migrate and stay in the urban areas. They need to get back to their own rural areas, and live there in bondage if it comes to that. ***

Sir, though you have written so several times, please don’t mind, there is no truth at all in your observation/understanding or information. Rather, I am eager to know that how have you figured out this? I mean it is your own conclusion, read somewhere or have been told like this by some well-informed source.
Rest assured, Pakistanis are very much free to move wherever they feel like whenever they feel like. There are almost no restrictions at all, at least on the basis of financial muscles.

I think, except bashing Islam and to some extent Mr Jinnah Pakistanis are almost totally free/wild to do as they deem fit.

Open Letter to Prime Minister Jamali
There are certain contradictions need to be pointed out.
First of all I would like to ask gentlemen criticizing ministers x, y & z for heading ministries without formal competence that what formal degrees Mr. Musharraf have to lead the country of 140 million?

What job would a Pakistani general of infantry, armour or artillery would get in any multi-national on the grounds of his academic accomplishments? At the most a head watchman with few guards under his supervision.

Mohammad Ali Jinnah, to whom most of our fellow countrymen consider an ultimate politician and statesman, was just a barrister- technically undergraduate.
Only a fool would argue about the importance of formal education but in politics it is not (and should not) be the foremost requirement.

We don’t have a political science professor sitting in the Oval office.
Lula of Brazil is a former street vendor.
His minister for environment (a young lady) has not even to college.
Former Polish president was an electrician. I can go on and on.
Why go so far.
Mr. Romair has more than 2000 replies on this forum – without having any degree in essay writing.

There is a huge difference between popular politics and meritocracy or technocracy.
On the contrary, sometimes an outsider with no pre-hand biases is in a far better position to bring about deeper changes.

Please, note what I am writing is also AT THE MOST just another aspect of the much larger story. There are very few, if any hard and fast rules and universal truths in this imperfect world.
The only point is that normally, it is naïve to say the least, to exclude one angle for the other and/or come up with sweeping observations.
All the best
Baba Jee

Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity? There were times when I used to think … technically understandable that men are with other men as women cannot offer homosexual men what they do with each other … not at least fully and in non-artificial manner … but for what a woman needs another woman to get satisfied. Most men are capable, willing and probably pleased to replicate the all the services a lesbian has to offer another lesbian.

Then with a whit of good luck I came across a pure lesbian, very attractive young lady who answered most of my questions about the phenomenon “homosexuality”.

As many women complain that most men are unaware of or have a weird tendency to forget quite often that sex is something that resides AS MUCH between two ears as it is between two legs. For some women it is simply unthinkable to be touched, fondled, kissed, caressed by a man as it is unimaginable for many men to be with another man in bed.

Yes practically a man can replace a woman but definitely NOT emotionally and psychologically. Some women, for that matter some men too, simply don’t get excited by opposite sex.

Nowadays there are even some biological explanations (though yet to be fully proved or refuted) that at least some of homosexuals are born faggots. They are programmed by nature to be gay. They found certain slight but specific differences in the brains of some gays.

Interestingly, many men severely dislike homosexuality among males but get extremely aroused because of female homosexuality. How do we explain this disparity?
Similarly, to many (male) “liberals” it is unacceptable that their wives/girlfriends cheat them with another male, but acceptable, if not recommendable to be with another woman. Probably, they don’t consider women as their rival.

Role of Pakistan Army Under Musharraf Just Stinks PPP contests Senate chairman`s ruling: Question about Sindh governor
By Our Reporter

ISLAMABAD, June 13: Pakistan People`s Party (PPP) has rejected the contention of the Senate chairman, Muhammadmian Soomro, that no question can be asked about the Sindh governor on the floor of the House.

The PPP had asked for details of criminal cases filed against Ishratul Ibad before his appointment as governor, their present status and whether the cases were withdrawn and, if so, why were these withdrawn.

In a letter to Senator Farhatullah Babar, Mr Soomro ruled that his question was about a sitting governor who was a representative of the president. ``A question about the conduct of any such dignitary is barred by the provision of rule 47 (XViii) (a) of the Rules of Business,`` the letter said.
The PPP challenges this interpretation as there was no sub clause (a) to Rule 47 (XViii) in the Rules of Business on the basis of which the question was killed, said Senator Farhatullah Babar in a statement here on Sunday.

Rule 47 (XViii) which had no sub clause barred only questions, which contained reflections on court decisions, he said. There was no reference to governor or anybody else in this rule, he said.
Senator Babar said there was sub clause (a) in Rule 47 (XViii) under which questions reflecting on the conduct of the president, or a foreign head of state or a judge of the superior court could not be asked. ``Even this did not forbid asking question about a provincial governor.``

``The lackadaisical and non-chalant manner in which a serious question is disallowed on the basis of an imaginary and non- existent rule is mind-boggling``. It only demonstrates that the Senate is being conducted as a personal Jagir rather than the elected Upper House of the federation, he said.
It is a novel interpretation that the immunity given to the president should also be deemed to apply to the governors on the ground that they are representatives of the president.
``By disallowing the question the Senate chairman has transgressed his powers and authority to cover up the criminal past of a sitting governor,`` senator Babar said. Mr Babar said the harder the rulers tried to cover up the criminal past of state functionaries the harder the PPP would expose them before the bar of the enlightened public opinion.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/14/nat4.htm

Karachi a Pawn Pakistani General Escapes Gunmen`s Attack
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 10, 2004
Filed at 3:10 a.m. ET

KARACHI, Pakistan (AP) -- Gunmen opened fire on the motorcade of a Pakistani general in the volatile southern city of Karachi on Tuesday, killing at least four people and injuring 10 -- but failing to wound the general, [kutta bach gya] police said.

Gunfire from buildings on both sides of the street hit the last vehicle in the convoy accompanying Lt. Gen. Ahsan Saleem Hayat, the Karachi corps commander, near the city`s Clifton Bridge. Soldiers returned fire, and the gunmen fled in at least one car, witnesses said.

Witnesses said there were at least three vehicles in the general`s convoy. He usually travels in a limousine in a convoy of eight or 10 vehicles.

---

Paul Bremer regal cortege has fewer cars in Baghdad. Imagine, even French and German generals can’t afford the luxury, expensive limousines Pakistani crore commanders normally use. Could it become more painful, more bizarre?

The best service Musharraf can do to Pakistan and to the institution he falsely claims to keep dear is to take the military out of limelight – back to the barracks.

I am really afraid that it is just a matter of time that people would not only be shooting at military officers, they would be doing what people did with American mercenaries at Falluja.

My Pakistan Diary: The Feudal
I have a question, if anyone can answer.
As I know Gohar Ayub is a retired captain – graduated from PMA. So how come he doesn’t have BA degree?

In Search of Birth Places Romair: Sir, with reference to your comment (he was a US citizen by that time, so he was, technically, not a Pakistani Hindu, but an American Hindu) I would like to request your assistance for understanding how he ceased to be Pakistani Hindu?
I mean are you a Pakistani Muslim or a Canadian Muslim (in case you have succeeded securing Canadian passport)?

I can understand if you consider him (and yourself) Pakistani-American-Hindu and Pakistani-Canadian-Muslim (placement of words or their arrangement is of less importance) respectively but rationale behind taking his country of origin out altogether is beyond my comprehension.

Who is a Muslim? Well, dear Sattar, I really wish that it were as easy to be either black or white in life as you suggested. There are very few things in this imperfect world that can be characterised in absolute hard and fast terms ruling out every other possibility.

Every phenomenon can be presented, dilated upon and perceived in (at least) hundred and one different manners. Particularly, religion is such a complex black hole where even extremely rational and acclaimed intelligent individuals with thorough logical approach, even noble laureates, go nuts.

Let me give you one more example. If mainstream Muslims consider Ahmadis heretic so do Ahmadis. I mean can you ever be Ahmadi without believing that non-Ahmadis are not misguided, mistaken and wrong in their beliefs? You cant be Ahmadi without considering Mirza sahib prophet, not Muslim while doing so. Right? Sattar bhai, it is a never-ending discussion which would lead nowhere. Lets make peace. I just wanna add few details which are normally held back for convenience sake =).

I agree that my last reply can be interpreted in a fashion as you did. Perhaps, it was meant to be ambiguous as everything else around. But, no, I was neither seeking conflict nor intended to threaten. Why should I? You are very much entitled to believe what you want to. Who am I to object? Man, you are lucky who have succeeded making up your mind. I am not. I have yet to attain that peace of mind. Na yar na, teachings of Mirza sahib don’t help me =), in case you thought to prescribe that.

Brother, we all human beings are [and very much have the requisite potential to be] both angel and devil as per requirements, sometimes even simultaneously.

Take care,
Allah Hafiz

Banana Republics This year armed forces parade on 23rd March has been cancelled. Reason given out by the government is to avoid public inconvenience and save expenses. This annual parade has been held religiously for the last 56 years. Why is it that up till now nobody realised that it was causing public inconvenience? Is this really the cause of cancellation of the parade or is it the ‘suicidal fundos’ are adamant not to let General Musharraf ride the ceremonial buggy in peace.
If public inconvenience is really the matter bothering our rulers, they should also consider so many other avenues where the public is being inconvenienced but where the inflated personal convenience of the VIPs is not at stake.

Nighat, a very timely piece. Hats off to you.

Who is a Muslim? Dear Sattar & Rizwan:

To me, religion is something personal entirely between an individual and the Creator. I firmly believe that this world would be a far better and peaceful place had we confined these circular unverifiable theological issues to our respective private domains. What I have never understood is the rationale to shove our beliefs down the throat of others.

Having said that I must add: dear friends you two are intentionally or deliberately bit too scant while explaining the central creeds of Qadiani religion.
For example you have never mentioned that:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also claimed to be the Messiah, whose advent was awaited by Jews, Christians and Muslims, and to be an avatar, or reincarnation, of the Hindu god Krishna. Furthermore, it teaches, among other things, that Jesus feigned death on the cross, escaped to India where he resumed his ministry, died aged 120 and was buried at Srinagar in Kashmir.

Question is why don’t you people call/consider yourself as Qadiani-Hindu or Ahmadi-Christian or Qadiani-Jew? Why this honour reserved only for Muslims?

Then, there are at the most 20 million adherents, mainly on the Indian subcontinent, in West Africa and Indonesia. More or less as many as there are Sikhs. Using the definition, criteria and benchmarks given by you to judge the authenticity of prophets. What about Guru Nanak? Do you consider him too a prophet of God. Where do you place him? Before Mirza sahib or after?

See, to be honest, most of your references, or distortion of the Islamic scriptures at best.
As I am not a practicing Muslim myself, I have no penchant for indulging in never-ending discussion of right and wrong in this regard. Otherwise, the arguments produced by you can easily recycled and fire back.

Take care.
PS. I have a lot more inside stuff to present, in case you don’t feel satisfied.