The Not So Rational Beings
#34 by ali87 on January 28, 2003 2:40pm PT



I think the chowk people hired him themselves..... as a joker.



:)

The March of Folly
o o O The Liberation of Pakistan O o o



Jay, the liberation of Pakistan is one thing that has been extensively thought about. The problem is, the democratic experiment didn`t go too well. The regime in Pakistan is currently the only liberal group of people (misguided by conservative ISI) that could be in power. The socialist philosophers and intellectuals of the 70`s, after being diappointed with Benazir, may group together again. That, in my opinion, is something to look up to.

Dont forget, Musharraf is doing with raids on Jihadis and letting the FBI take control of a lot of things here, and thats the liberation plan for Pakistan for now.

However, the problem is the middle-class while-collar Jamaat-e-Islami mentality created over more than a decade, which is something like, ``Islam is a religion of peace, but there is no harm in hiding muslim brothers of AlQaeda in our homes.`` The Jamaat e Islami mentality and clean shaven ``beards-in-the-tummy`` guys are in total control of the press, and totally faking public opinion. Reports are that Musharraf has been deliberately misguided by the intelligence agencies that people are not happy with the FBI raids. The government has therefore been ``apologetic`` about everything when they dont need to be.

To form a government and make sure its a government that will stick to his policies, Musharraf had to literally BUY out 6 people from the People`s Party, and make all six of them federal ministers!

What needs to be done here is, to un-islamize (read un-Molvi-ize) the print media, the army, the intelligence agencies and the judiciary. The americans and the Pakistan Army need to sit down and plan again, like they did 2 decades ago, to clean the shit they themselves excreted!

The Not So Rational Beings
Its strange people actually have time to reply to this keshto dude!

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003
AzadMunna, where do you get your news from? Afghan Islamic Press?

Life with Wife
#31, Khansahid, jee haan, aap ko dekh ke to aisa hee lagta hai!

The March of Folly

o o O Its not about IF you oppose the war, its about WHY you oppose it! O o o


Romair you`re only proving Sameer true!! Can you explain why, all of a sudden, Pope John Paul has become such a beloved quotable figure to you? Why do you not also quote him on Taleban and what he thinks about Prophet Mohammad??? When Amnesty International points out the injustice done to the Christian and Ahmedi minorities in muslim countries, why are they not given the same honor? The fact that you being a muslim will suddenly start quoting Pope John Paul, and that too, about _political issues_ proves Sameer true.




Shankar(#5), these ``Pehelwans of Islam`` are actually just stupid blind mouthpieces of Jamaat-e-Islami! Jamaat-e-Islami, if you don`t know, are the Jamaat who 50 years ago declared Religion and Politics unseperable, for reasons I don`t need to explain! In the Zia regime they, with American money and resources, created the whole Jihad network, and a complete control on the local media, papers and curricular books, to spread the Jamaat e Islami mentality, examples of which you often see. And this was all planned and financed by the CIA, coz remember, the more Jihadis in Pakistan, the more resistance to the Russian invasion in Afghanistan. And now they`re first creating and then exploiting the Anti-America feelings, just to save their own dirty back sides. Many young people fall in their trap and with the intention to serve God, start serving the molvis.





Dear Bhitai (#12), I seriously think if you let a society run on democratic principles for a decade or so, in this age, it will start liberalizing itself automatically, and soon reach a balance. Iran is my example.

The March of Folly

I think this is vague, too long, and boring. We have seen similar articles before the previous gulf war, and very lately, before the attack on afghanistan, but nothing really happened.... If the US decides to attack Iraq despite the world opposing it, nothing will happen. No muslim government will be politically weakened. It is a fact that hate against the USA in most muslim countries has been created on purpose, to exploit the religious feeling of the masses for political advantages. Such groups have no philosophical roots in the society.


The ISI and its Pan-Islamism ideology was born with my birth and grew up with me. The basic Jehad network was created not to liberate just one country, but to liberate the whole world. From chechnya to China, from Kashmir to philipines, they started a war on every single front they could afford, hoping to achieve the ``eminence of Islam``. This eminence was to be achieved by war and force.

If now, the US wants to use war to impose Pax Americana on the world, how can we Islamists have the moral courage to say its wrong??

If 3000 palestinians die, Jihad becomes compulsory, and killing women children and innocent men just because they are jews, becomes justifiable, if not compulsory. If 3000 Americans die on 9/11, why should a crusade not be compulsory? If not compulsory, then at least justifiable?

I dont think America is raping the world. Taleban were rapists, Saddam is a rapist. Osama ben laden was a rapist.

Osama ben laden is the Rapist! He raped democracy, he raped freedom, he raped humanity. He raped America and its citizens, he raped Saddam Hussain and Iraqi citizens. He raped Pakistan and its scared confused citizens. He raped Islam and raped it so bad, he made it frigid!!!








Pax Americana

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003
Imran Khan has totally gone insane. Seriously, it must be some psychological disease. Some say he`s trying to exploit religious feelings to gain political popularity lately, but I think its much deeper than that. I really think he should be put in solitary confinement for the rest of his life.

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003
Why are we all wasting our time here over pre-decided corporate shit anyway?


Dear Sadna, Pankaj, Shankar,

When will we get over comparisons? If Pakistan is a poor country, or Pakistanis are not good at sports, or they don`t know maths, how does that benefit you and other Indians? If we lose wars, how does that benefit the Indian people? How will India attacking and capturing Pakistan improve your standard of living?

If Pakistanis are only good at ``mara-oing``, why do you wanna compete with them? Why do you wanna win? How cool is it to win from a nation of losers? Why do you not compete with China? Why do you not work hard together for the progress of your country to compare youself to the USA, when you know that will have a positive effect on the lives of all Indians, and that will improve your standard of living and that of all other Indians. That will mean food and shelter for all the poor indians and better opportunities for all of you to be successful in life.

It is very natural to see frustrated youth of a failed state, trying to compete with the much better India, but it is highly disappointing to see you people getting happy comparing youself to one of the poorest states of the world! How brave is it to shoot a dead body?

The Not So Rational Beings
Dear Naqshbandi(#21)

Youre true, giving specific examples is not a very good idea because I might be quoting exceptions. But if you go the ``General`` way, I will agree to you that there are certain ``names of virtues`` that are probably universally shared, but what actions should be given the name of that virtue is different for different ways of thinking.

Courage may be a virtue in all nations in some circumstances, or in some nations in all circumstances, but never in all nations in all circumstances. The reason being, what to you is ``courageous`` might be ``reckless`` for someone from another school of thought.

Martyrdom is a virtue in all nations, but some say Z.A. Bhutto was a martyr, others say Gen. Zia was. The name of the virtue is the same, but the application is totally different.

Two people can disagree on a point while they`re both telling the truth. One man`s 6 is another man`s 9. They`re both telling the ``truth`` when they say they`re true, but they`re both lying when they say the other person is lying!



Thanks for the info on Maulana Rasheed Ahmed. I just managed
confused myself about Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi!





Dear NoMoreASlave (#20)

Music is not allowed in Islam. I am a Kaafir, so its obvious I`ll be good at it :) Thats one thing the constitutional-muslims are lesser than me in!

Nice to know you!! Stay around.

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003 Saeed Anwar should go for a Jihad in Iraq! Mulsim brothers are dying, while Saeed anwar is busy earning dollars! :)

The Not So Rational Beings Dear Naqshbandi (#14)

No matter how hateful these mullahs I quoted are, and even if they are not authorities according to you or me, the point I made was ``Truth is not a universal ethical trait``, and the point still holds true.

Btw, sorry about my lack of knowledge, I somehow had a misconception that Rasheed Ahmed is from the Bareli school of thought. Thats why I quoted him, thinking I`m covering Deobandi, Barelwi, and Modudi, all three popular philosophies.

The point however is, that there is no universal code of ethics. I am sure there is not even a single ethical trait that is universally prized.

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003 Dear Sadna(#26),

- Not keeping international commitments in sports, to gain political advantages is a shameful deed. Its nothing to be proud of!

- Bringing politics of extremism into sports that teach patience and tolerance, is a crminal act.

- Giving up several million dollars of your own profit to ``bleed`` someone of 10% of that amount, is vulgar sadism!

- The cricket board is not run by ``military generals``. It is run by ``A military general``, who draws his pay every month no matter which countries Pakistan plays with. If you think otherwise, its childish.


I prefer to stay out of India-vs-Pakistan quarrels because I consider them meaningless and hateful. My comments have nothing to do with it.




Dear Sac (#27),

Rameez Raja claimed to discover that since a fast bowler needs a faster arm action to throw a light tape ball at a certain speed. The same arm action will generate a faster speed for the heavy hard-ball, and that was the reason why Pakistani bowlers are faster than the rest of the world.

Also, the Street-Batsmen are often poor at timing and placement. The boundaries are short and the number of overs is usually 5 to 10, so its more often about hitting hard afridi style. Bowling a tape-ball very fast may not give the best swing but it is useful in bowling out batsmen with poor timing. Occasional slower deliveries to decieve, have proven to be very successful and are really popular in the streets these days.

Sunshine From Above
Dear AnNy,

Although I have always believed art to be a subconcious to subconcious thing, this was a very hard poem for me to grasp a mood out of. I am a musician and i usually like to translate all forms of art into mine.

I tried to compose a part of your poem into music... I`ve uploaded it at http://www.dotfactor.net/sfa.mp3 for you and others to comment... I really wonder how close I got.

The Not So Rational Beings

------- Part 1 Relativity of Ethics


Yes, different societies do have different ethical codes, and most of educated individuals in today`s world subconsciously get tuned to the relativity of ethics. Relativism is not about believing everyone is true, its about accepting the difference of opinions in the world.


When Society A thinks there is an error with the ethical code of Society B, they should preach their views in people-to-people communcation, and help those elements of the Society B who agree to the views of society B, not crossing the limit into ``imposition``. Imposition is against Relativism, preaching is NOT.


I will courage to say there is NO universal ethical code!!! Anybody who claims there is one, and then does not follow it, and still considers himself ``good``, agrees subconciously in Relativism.






------- Part 1 Relativity of Ethics in Islam



No, dear Naqshbani (#4), you will be surprised to know that even the most basic ethical quality, ``Truth`` is not prized unconditionally in every culture, nor is lying despised. Since you`re a muslim and so am I, I`ll prove this relativity by the following examples:


- ``It is good to tell a lie in order to establish (Islamic) faith. However, one must tell the truth as much as possible, if there is no way out, one should lie completely.``
Fatwa by Molana Rasheed Ahmed Gungohy
(Fataawa e Rasheediya, Page 460)


- ``In some conditions, Lying is `farz` and compulsary.``
By Molvi Hussain Ahmed Madni
(Naqsh e Hayaat, page 625)


- ``In practical life, there are some needs for which, not only are you allowed to tell a lie, but in some circumstances, it has been declared compulsary.``
Molana Abul Ala` Modudi
(Tarjumaanul Koran, May 1958, Page 54)



These three scholars I quoted above are the pillars of modern sunni Islam, and I do not need to comment any more on their views. On the other hand, these very scholars would argue that Islam is a complete code of life and it fits practical life for all situations and all ages!!


These are the same scholars according to whose beliefs, Pictures are not allowed in Islam, but they posed for the newspapers to get popularity, and kept bank notes with pictures of Jinnah in their pockets. Jinnah whom they called ``Kafir e Azam``.





------- Part 2 Relativity of Ethics in the Pakistani Society


Lets continue with the ``Truth`` since it is the most basic trait of ``Universal Ethical Code`` as presented by the supporters of the concept. In Pakistan it is sad but:


- An overwhelming percentage of the urban pakistani population belives that Islamic or the social Pakistani ethical code is universal, and following it is the only way to salvation. Yet in a recent road show by the Pakistani news channel ``Indus News``, it was sad to see 90% people accepting they themselves lie for profits in their business, saying there is no way out and the government has made the life hard.


- I belong to the upper middle class and literally all of us have seen a relative go for Jihad, or know someone who`s relative went for Jihad, before and after 9/11, in Kashmir. We are however not allowed to reveal this in local newspapers or write about it in them, because, according to what an Urdu daily`s Editor wrote to me, ``this brings a bad name to Pakistan.`` When our government says nobody crosses the line of control, we stnad by the goverment. We all lie together, as a nation!


- We lied together as a nation, when we attacked on Kargil, saying it wads done by Kashmiri Millitants. We refused to accept Captain Sher Khan`s dead body, who was suggested Nishaan-e-Haider by the Indian Army! Later on we gave him one, but we refuse to answer, and we are not allowed to ask, if it were Kashmiri millitants, what was Captain Sher khan doing with them, and why did we give him a Nishaan-e-Haider?
IF, which I am sure of, someone minds me talking about this here, it will prove that ``truth`` is only judged ethical when spoken for the judge :)









General Zia has been quoted below, saying ``kissi kay aqeeday ko chairo nahiN aur apne aqeeday ko choRRo nahiN``. Yet, during his rule, the most talked about ordinance he brought was the Anti-Qadiani ordinence according to which people belonging to the Ahmedi faith were disallowed to follow their religion. This refutes the first part of his own belief quoted above. The same ordinance also disallowed Ahmedis to preach their religion, which is an acceptance of the fact that the second part of zia`s quoted belief was impractical.
Hence, to gain political popularity OR to serve Islam, for whichever reason of the two, he went against what he had said! Many of us however, praise him for the ordinance. Zia, and many of us believe ``doosray ke aqeeday ko cherrna`` is universally bad, but when it comes to Qadianis, it is GOOD! Relativity of ethics!

Pakistan Team for the World Cup 2003
I think the BEST comment of the whole discussion was when Rozaiba said:



. . o o O ``Statistics are meaningless`` O o o . .







Dear FirstSlip(#14),

If Sultan Zarwani is Coal, Waqar Younis is an insect crawling inside a dark coal mine deserving to come under a miner`s foot and die!


Dear KhamKhwa(#15),

I wasnt shocked to hear what you said because I had read your nick :)